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16 Responses

  1. Sabio Lantz says:

    Funny, just yesterday I was explaining Plato’s classic Euthyphro dialogue on Piety — which has been taken up in MetaEthics to debate which comes first, The Good or The God(s)?

    Religion-free folks may prefer a t-shirt which describes what really happens: “The Good” has an “O” stolen to make someone’s god.


  2. Caryn LeMur says:

    Sabio: when I worked among the felons in the prison, the God came before the Good. Several of the prisoners were a unique group of people, wherein they needed to literally ‘fear God’ in order to re-organize their life.

    However, they are a minority. Outside (this group within) the prison population, society seems to not need God for morality. The Good comes first.

    In my current view, 99% of society seems to need (to a smaller or greater degree) community, acceptance, welcoming, and the other positives that feed the thought that they matter (to family, fellow man and/or god) and that they are not helpless in an overwhelming world.

    These are two very powerful motivators that come from our need for ‘hope’. We ‘hope’ that we matter to someone. We ‘hope’ that we are not helpless victims in an overwhelming world.

    If a community, be it a spouse, church, The Lasting Supper (TLS) or a local neighborhood, can say ‘you matter to me’ and ‘you are not helpless because of my love/prayer/spiritual independence/or listening… then, that community is powerful …. and healing.

    God is just one answer to those two motivators, imo.

  3. Sabio Lantz says:

    @ Caryn:

    (1) An experiment was done where Kids were given a hard test tempting them to cheat. Split between two Identical rooms, one room with big eyeball on the wall in front of the kids, other without a watching eye . The eyeball room kids cheat less (even if not real).
    So yeah, lots of folks do better if they feel watched.

    (2) I worked in a prison too — a max special security prison for multiple offenders: 2/3 murderers, and 1/3 child rapists. Watched or unwatched, they all did horrible. Fascinating experience at the extreme of society.

    (3) Community: most folks I know only have friends and family as community — nothing else. And the friends are fickle — depending on kids, job, church membership or clubs. Change those, and most friends drop. But the need to feel important to someone is very strong indeed in all those I know.

  4. Caryn LeMur says:

    Sabio: great replies.

    However… I shall try to get the image of a ‘big eyeball on the wall’ out of my mind…. creepy…. ๐Ÿ˜‰

    lol !

  5. Sabio Lantz says:

    @ Caryn: smiling

    @ David: I thought of another: “Leave Good Alone” –> showing a theist (a guy with with “One Way” cross on the shirt) trying to run away with an “O”

  6. haha i might be able to work with that one.
    and yes i agree with caryn about having an eyeball on the wall for kids to see sounds like a nightmare.

  7. Sabio Lantz says:

    The American government is very well aware of this principle: they put an eyeball on the US $1 bill to keep us honest!


    Do you Canadians have anything like that?

  8. Sabio Lantz says:

    Ooooops, I hope I don’t stir any of your religious readers to rant about the evil Masons after mentioning the eyeball on the pyramid.

  9. Bernardo says:

    I work for Amazon Marketing: see with prime shipping by your local drone or angel or satan. Your choice. See also the other choices. I wonder who has the copyright on these shirts?

  10. haha some real cheesy ones there

  11. Ducatihero says:

    I like the T-shirt.

    My first thought was of being connected with God but not making it just about that and it including what is good. As in humans being created and God seeing it was good also you being created by God for good works.

    I see also the appeal for someone who has let go of God (or their perception of God) and replaced God with perceived good. I understand that as where you are coming from with the T-shirt David.

    That is interesting with the eyeball and with kids feeling that they were watched cheating less but it making no difference to prisoners Sabio. I hear what you say Caryn about some literally needing to fear God in order to re-organise their life. If what you suggest is true that most of society doesn’t need God for morality, then where is morality gained from? Bertrand Russell is famously quoted as saying that “Dachau was wrong is not a fact”. Without God for morality does morality become wht the prevailing thought of a society has whether good or bad?

    There is something 1984ish about the eyeball and fear. In the book any dissenters fro the government were sent to the “Ministry of Love”. It was a place of brainwashing where the main character Winston was confronted with his greatest fear – rats and the possibility of having his face chewed off. He saves his own skin by saying let this happen to her – Julia instead of him. As a result the government had killed the disallowed love he had for her and instead manipulated him to have love for big brother who might not even exist.

    However what you say about fear of God for offenders Cary, suggests there is a place fro a healthy fear. I wonder, if Hitler, Paul Pott, Idi Amin, Mugabe, Stalin etc had a fear of God would that have worked out better for those they had authority over?

    It takes my mind to the hymn written by the reformed slaved trader John Newton “Amazing Grace”:

    “T’was grace that taught my heart to fear,
    And grace my fear relieved”.

    Could “good” be synonymous with “grace”?

  12. Sabio Lantz says:

    I made this graphic in reply to your “I believe in Good” T-shirt after I thought outloud above about the alternative.

  13. Sabio Lantz says:

    Thanks for peeking.