Pastor, You never cease to amaze with how funny AND incisive you can be at the same time. A cartoon like this really makes me think of the two functions of pastoring — caring for the sheep and correcting them when their path has gone wrong. Have you ever read CV Harquail’s blog “Authentic Organizations?” (http://authenticorganizations.com/) She’s great, and it’s interesting how a lot of her points about not being a big phony with ulterior motives in the corporate/brand/marketing sense overlaps a lot with your messages about personal and congregational authenticity. It’s really all the same, isn’t it? Whether spiritual or mundane, we all need to constantly scrutinise our motives to see if we aren’t just looking to manipulate others.
If this weren’t so true I’d think it was hilarious. There are some things we could add to it…We are interested in your gifts and talents so we might exploit them and show the rest of the world what we attracted. You must get rid of the bible that you feel comfortable with and switch to the hip new translation we use(or the old outmoded one we’re stuck in).No matter how many years you’ve been a Christian or how much education you have you must take our foundations class so we’ll all be on the same page and you’ll know how we do things around here. You will be assigned to a lay minister who has been a Christian for 2 years and knows at least a dozen bible verses to inspire you with. You are expected to tithe generously and give of your time endlessly. You will be manipulated at every turn. We have all the answers and if your beliefs in any way differ from ours you are wrong. We will meddle in your marriages and your friendships. You must give the right appearance. After all…all we want is your name on the rolls and your tithes and talents so we can boast about how large and how prosperous our church is.
Baruch…you mean like “Regular attendance has shown to leave lifelong scars”? or “if you accept the pastorate in this church your life will be run by a board of the founder’s descendants who will dictate your every move and eventually run you out of the Christian church altogether” or “after you have been around awhile and know all our dirty secrets(like where the money really goes or that the youth pastor is smoking crack) we will find something to blame you for …loudly and publically…to discount anything you have to say about anything. Or that the senior pastor’s doctorate is from a mail order firm…it only has the same name as a well known seminary. The fine print needs to say that” even though we may have assured you that saying the required words insured you eternity in heaven, this may not be true.” And the list could go on….
Although I’m an atheist and I’ve faced some mistreatment from Christians, this is too cynical for my taste. Every word’s interpretation is the most negative of all the possibilities, and some are a real stretch. They are all assumed from generalizations about the category called “Christians,” without actually getting to know the individuals who might be responsible for such a sign.
In other words, it’s exactly the same kind of prejudice that atheists face from some Christians, and I won’t practice what I decry. I must take each person one at a time, risks and all.
We must not base our own behavior on the worst of others. Giving only as you get is a one way spiral going down.
Richard,
As a Christian pastor, I couldn’t agree with you more.
A cynic and a pessimist [Christian or Atheist] painting with a broad brush does NOTHING to heal. He only keeps the wounds open, and many bleed to death.
In fact, the cynic often times adds to the infection.
fishon
More often than not, ministers who are aware of the problems to the point that they can laugh at them are able to let those who have been wounded know that they can seek refuge with them. Poking fun at what is going on allows someone who has been hurt to articulate what they are feeling. Again,jerry, you are in a specialized situation. You are in a small town and have an eclectic congregation. In a small town its next to impossible to live a life of deceit. Everyone knows you and how you live and when you step to the podium on Sunday morning its an extension of that. You had better be real or you’ll be laughed out of town. You don’t have tp worry about the power seekers setting up shop in your backyard. In the city, every couple of years or so, someone arrives to save the city. They come with big financial backing, huge ad campaigns etc. etc. and after they’ve been around 6 mos. or so the carnage starts to become visible and the rest of us spend a lot of time picking up the pieces. These and mainline neighborhood churches present the largest problems. The pharisees are still with us…they just have different names. If one person who sees David’s cartoon is able to speak the unspeakable…ie, that the “happy, huge mega church is abusive” then it will be worth it. And no, not all megachurches are abusive and not all mainline churches are abusive, but the ones that are…well. The casualty list from the ministry I started out with is still huge 35 years later. People hanging on to their faith by a thread, shunning churches like the plague, getting involved in some New Age stuff that is harmful. No growth and noone who would address their pain because it was Rhode Island, and Rhode Island is just one great big small town. No-one wants to get involved in someone elses mistakes. I was fortunate…I came to Chicago and someone was willing to address what had happened.
How can you not be cynical when you’ve heard 30 years of: They told me I wasn’t really saved…they told me I had to be delivered from the demons that came with my pierced ears and my nail polish…I’m a single woman and they told me I had to obey the pastor as if he were my husband…they told me my marriage was all wrong and that only my husband should be handling the money…I was forbidden to go to a conference…we are forbidden to go to any other church or to listen/watch a preacher on radio or tv…we were told we were faithless because we go to the doctor…we were told we must home school our children…we had to sign a paper stating that we wouldn’t drink, smoke, dance, watch movies, or swim in mixed company…we were told what we could wear to church and where there were dress shops that sold appropriate attire…I was told I couldn’t marry my fiance because the pastor didn’t witness to it…we were asked to submit our finances when we joined so they could determine how much we were expected to give…I was told I had to marry my keyboard player or we couldn’t keep ministering music together…These aren’t isolated instances, they’re common and I’ve heard them over and over. Even today, there are churches where women are condemned to hell if they wear pants or cut their hair and their husbands are condemned with them for not dictating what they should do.
I don’t think it’s too cynical. It’s a cartoon, not something meant to be taken very literally. It’s a generalization, and the generalization happens to be true in many of the more conservative denominations–at least the denominations that would post this sign!
I love it! And I completely agree with you preacherlady on everything you said.
PS And right now, I think David’s church is the only one I would set foot in. I have dealt with the attitudes he caricatures for the last 25 years. It’s time someone said something, and I appreciate the open honesty he displays. Seeing that I’m not the only one who feels this way is helpful, and I am amazed that there is someone still in church and in ministry who can be so open about the problems the church faces.
I have to say, I somewhat agree with Richard. My first reaction to today’s cartoon was..Whoa, this is very cynical. I think I would discribe it as ”Hyperbole”..over exaggeration for the sake of effect!.
Preacherlady: I hear what you are saying. However, I find it hard to believe that there would be a majority of churches that ‘abuse’ people the way you tell it. I do know that there are churches, cults whatever out there that do but I think they are in the minority. You obviously counsel people who have been deeply wouned by so called church. I also did counselling in the mental health field and I found that sometimes in certain situations I would be so effected by a particular ”horror storey” that I started to paint everything with the same brush. When I got to that state I would step back and try to look at things more objectively. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn’t.
Some people from my church are helping me with some DIY jobs in my flat tomorrow, and while this is very nice of them, I feel a bit like I’m selling my soul. One of them asked me if I’d been doing much reading and praying. I said, slightly puzzled, that I was always reading. I didn’t realise she meant the Bible! I don’t particularly want to read the Bible. I like the Song of Songs and The Psalms, but the rest of it just isn’t my sort of thing. I’ve read it all once and most of it several times over – why keep reading it again? Despite what some say about the language of some of the translations and its importance in the development of the English language, I don’t find it to be very well written (at least not to my tastes). I only like reading books that are really well written. Most of the New Testament is a series of didactic letters and most of the Old is about people killing each other – neither are really my cup of tea. So already I have this conflict going on that I find stressful. This is why I prefer to avoid Evangelicals.
@Ann B…no, the majority of churches aren’t like that. For the past several years my ministry has been to those who have been hurt by churches, so of course I hear it all. And I live in a city where there is a large immigrant population and the ethnic churches tend towards legalism. There are many wonderful churches that I refer people to all the time and then there are those that look good as long as you don’t get involved. ..if you do…watch out! Poking fun at the disfunction is better than taking a shotgun to it…seriously, if I couldn’t laugh at this stuff I’d go nutsy kookoo, because they are hurting people, some of which were already hurting when they got there, in the name of God. Church isn’t supposed to hurt…its supposed to heal and casting out the demons in your nail polish isn’t going to do much of anything.
*sigh!*
Why is it like that in some churches?
Why can’t we imitate Christ more and let our power hungry selves starve?
Why can’t we love one another unconditionally, like Christ did?
*SIGH!!*
@Richard, it is the nature of satire to be pointed and exaggerated. There is nothing in this cartoon that doesn’t have more than a grain of truth to it. Yes it’s exaggerated, but that doesn’t mean it’s untrue.
I am confident that there is not one church out there that is guilty of all these shortcomings. However, I am skeptical that there is any church out there that is completely free of all of them either. Churches are composed of people; and we are all imperfect. We will make mistakes, and our mistakes will be reflected in the churches we build.
In order to fix a problem, we first need to identify it. We are ill served if our shortcomings are glossed over, ignored, or tolerated. Humor, even bitter humor, is a way of reaching through our defenses and helping us to see and acknowledge these problems, and perhaps find the will to correct them.
I don’t believe NP is just saying, “Hey, the church sucks, the hell with it”. I believe he’s saying, “Here’s where we often fail; let’s try to stop doing that”. If NP didn’t want to fix these problems, I’m sure he’d either be a mainstream pastor who didn’t make waves, or a non-participant. I’ doubt he’d have this blog.
From what I see, NP is facing the very real and serious problems in the church, trying to make people aware of them in a gentle, non-threatening way, and to help us all face and fix them.
A cynic and a pessimist [Christian or Atheist] painting with a broad brush does NOTHING to heal. He only keeps the wounds open, and many bleed to death(fishon)
How can you say that with a straight face. Afterall, you base your shitty behaviour and that of your fellow christians on Adam and Eve. Now thats what a would call a VERY BROAD BRUSH.
Religion is cynical and disrespectful. If they want respect they need to give it. Atheists have been passive and friendly for too long. Time to stop playing nice. It obviously isn’t working. We are still marginalized, discriminated and disrespected all the time.
All throughout history, nobody ever gains freedom and rights by being passive. The oppressors don’t just hand out freedom and rights. It needs to be fought for.
Being passive and respectful = being easy to ignore.
Wow. The comments surrounding this sign mirror my experience at a multicampus Southern Baptist church which is run by pastors who are well-known authors of books about church structure and identity. In short, they are taking principles which have worked well in American business and are applying them to church. There is such a disconnect between what they THINK they are doing and what they are ACTUALLY doing, I never cease to be amazed.
For example, one of their bestsellers explains how they created a false church website and a job description for a worship leader with several supposedly “conflicting” values. The ideal candidate for the ministry position would have to subscribe to the “T.U.L.I.P.” theological position while at the same time agreeing to be a snakehandler. There were requirements for dressing “hip” and a bunch of other things I don’t recall at the moment.
When people sent in actual resumés, these “loving” pastors carefully collected data on the applicants and went on to use said data to mock the applicants in future sermons and their book. The book exposed such applicants as New Agey types who could never be successful in TRUE ministry because they have no consistent core theology.
These pastors/authors/Southern Baptist gurus THINK they are teaching churches it is necessary to create a theologically cohesive “vision”. What they have ACTUALLY done is to expose themselves as people who think it’s funny to humiliate others. And, whether they are aware of it or not, they have caused many “unchurched” people to shake their heads in wonder at how “loving” pastors could take pride in setting theological traps for people.
The Senior pastor in this muticampus church is insulated by the ones who really run the show; he is kept unaware of the constant conflict that occurs when people realize that they are being manipulated and push against that. He locks himself in his office, with very little interaction with the congregation, while the rest of the staff keep people away and show them the door if they get too vocal.
In my opinion, the entire congregation is manipulated by a strange mixture of entertainment, the initial rush of being invited into the inner circle, a sense that whatever the church leaders say has come directly from God (via God’s Word–which is really only their INTERPRETATION of scripture), and, ultimately, guilt and fear.
I’m glad that there are churches that do not embody these manipulative, physical growth and pop culture obsessions. I hope that one day I might wander into a church where people matter just as they are–where people can think for themselves without condemnation–where there are no papers to sign and oaths to swear–where I can just be a Christian and have some connection to other Christians who are content to allow authentic relationships to develop naturally–where I can just be myself. In the meantime, though… I am happy to be walking with God in pathways near, but not leading to, churches.
Really, I would just rather smell the T.U.L.I.P.s than handle the snakes…
It must me just me…… but I thought that this cartoon was (a) funny and (b) just a cartoon.
I think this is David’s role- a kind of gadfly- I’m sure there are these extemes (been guitly of them as well!). This helps me to think a lot. It also makes me think that I am not the only freak out there..
As a read the whole corpus of his posts, I see him as anything other than a cynic but someone who is trying to be true and honest and has managed to draw a whole range of people around his web site (many of us who can’t ever agree)- I think that is good!
brambonius said, on February 7th, 2010 at 9:23 am
so you are the house cartoonist of the friendly atheist now?
———Seems like the friendly atheist is going to come out of its shell, according to qwertyuiop: “Time to stop playing nice.”
brambonius, that should be very interesting. I am looking forward to reading qwertyuiop’s unfriendly barbs.
fishon
@ qwertyuiop: Remaining “passive” is difficult, and often results in failure; yet there have been some noteworthy exceptions to this general rule. Gandhi and Dr. King come to mind. I suppose they were “active” in that they got involved and faced often extreme opposition. But they didn’t use violence or force to make their points.
Of course, there are times when choice boils down to fighting, or remaining a victim. In such cases, I believe fighting – violence – can be justified. Martyrdom is highly overrated, IMNSHO.
As for the plight of poor, oppressed Atheists, I’d rank that just about equal to the plight of the poor, oppressed Christians. I have no sympathy for the whingeing of either group, in the Western countries. If you’re in Afghanistan or somewhere, sure, you’re both oppressed. Otherwise, you’re just bandying words about without any serious oppression happening.
I don’t know where you live. If it’s in the US and you’re feeling oppressed, then get out there and vote – not ‘you’ singular (for all I know, you may in vote every election), but everyone who finds the intrusion of Christianity into government unacceptable. That would be the Atheists, moderate Christians (that’s the majority of people in this country right there), non-Christians, etc.
There are far more moderate Christians and Atheists than there are Fundamentalists. The only reason any sort of “oppression” can exist is because the Fundamentalists get their asses out and vote, whereas many who disagree are too lazy or apathetic to bother.
Until you (plural) have tried the voting route, any other means is premature and inappropriate. Oh, and doomed to fail, as well.
David Hayward is a pastor artistically stripping to the essential.
I really, really wish that this cartoon was not as true as it is. But it is true and that is very unfortunate…
Pastor, You never cease to amaze with how funny AND incisive you can be at the same time. A cartoon like this really makes me think of the two functions of pastoring — caring for the sheep and correcting them when their path has gone wrong. Have you ever read CV Harquail’s blog “Authentic Organizations?” (http://authenticorganizations.com/) She’s great, and it’s interesting how a lot of her points about not being a big phony with ulterior motives in the corporate/brand/marketing sense overlaps a lot with your messages about personal and congregational authenticity. It’s really all the same, isn’t it? Whether spiritual or mundane, we all need to constantly scrutinise our motives to see if we aren’t just looking to manipulate others.
If this weren’t so true I’d think it was hilarious. There are some things we could add to it…We are interested in your gifts and talents so we might exploit them and show the rest of the world what we attracted. You must get rid of the bible that you feel comfortable with and switch to the hip new translation we use(or the old outmoded one we’re stuck in).No matter how many years you’ve been a Christian or how much education you have you must take our foundations class so we’ll all be on the same page and you’ll know how we do things around here. You will be assigned to a lay minister who has been a Christian for 2 years and knows at least a dozen bible verses to inspire you with. You are expected to tithe generously and give of your time endlessly. You will be manipulated at every turn. We have all the answers and if your beliefs in any way differ from ours you are wrong. We will meddle in your marriages and your friendships. You must give the right appearance. After all…all we want is your name on the rolls and your tithes and talents so we can boast about how large and how prosperous our church is.
Maybe churches should really come with warning labels and disclaimers. Most other products do, many of which are far less dangerous than a church.
Baruch…you mean like “Regular attendance has shown to leave lifelong scars”? or “if you accept the pastorate in this church your life will be run by a board of the founder’s descendants who will dictate your every move and eventually run you out of the Christian church altogether” or “after you have been around awhile and know all our dirty secrets(like where the money really goes or that the youth pastor is smoking crack) we will find something to blame you for …loudly and publically…to discount anything you have to say about anything. Or that the senior pastor’s doctorate is from a mail order firm…it only has the same name as a well known seminary. The fine print needs to say that” even though we may have assured you that saying the required words insured you eternity in heaven, this may not be true.” And the list could go on….
Although I’m an atheist and I’ve faced some mistreatment from Christians, this is too cynical for my taste. Every word’s interpretation is the most negative of all the possibilities, and some are a real stretch. They are all assumed from generalizations about the category called “Christians,” without actually getting to know the individuals who might be responsible for such a sign.
In other words, it’s exactly the same kind of prejudice that atheists face from some Christians, and I won’t practice what I decry. I must take each person one at a time, risks and all.
We must not base our own behavior on the worst of others. Giving only as you get is a one way spiral going down.
Richard,
As a Christian pastor, I couldn’t agree with you more.
A cynic and a pessimist [Christian or Atheist] painting with a broad brush does NOTHING to heal. He only keeps the wounds open, and many bleed to death.
In fact, the cynic often times adds to the infection.
fishon
More often than not, ministers who are aware of the problems to the point that they can laugh at them are able to let those who have been wounded know that they can seek refuge with them. Poking fun at what is going on allows someone who has been hurt to articulate what they are feeling. Again,jerry, you are in a specialized situation. You are in a small town and have an eclectic congregation. In a small town its next to impossible to live a life of deceit. Everyone knows you and how you live and when you step to the podium on Sunday morning its an extension of that. You had better be real or you’ll be laughed out of town. You don’t have tp worry about the power seekers setting up shop in your backyard. In the city, every couple of years or so, someone arrives to save the city. They come with big financial backing, huge ad campaigns etc. etc. and after they’ve been around 6 mos. or so the carnage starts to become visible and the rest of us spend a lot of time picking up the pieces. These and mainline neighborhood churches present the largest problems. The pharisees are still with us…they just have different names. If one person who sees David’s cartoon is able to speak the unspeakable…ie, that the “happy, huge mega church is abusive” then it will be worth it. And no, not all megachurches are abusive and not all mainline churches are abusive, but the ones that are…well. The casualty list from the ministry I started out with is still huge 35 years later. People hanging on to their faith by a thread, shunning churches like the plague, getting involved in some New Age stuff that is harmful. No growth and noone who would address their pain because it was Rhode Island, and Rhode Island is just one great big small town. No-one wants to get involved in someone elses mistakes. I was fortunate…I came to Chicago and someone was willing to address what had happened.
How can you not be cynical when you’ve heard 30 years of: They told me I wasn’t really saved…they told me I had to be delivered from the demons that came with my pierced ears and my nail polish…I’m a single woman and they told me I had to obey the pastor as if he were my husband…they told me my marriage was all wrong and that only my husband should be handling the money…I was forbidden to go to a conference…we are forbidden to go to any other church or to listen/watch a preacher on radio or tv…we were told we were faithless because we go to the doctor…we were told we must home school our children…we had to sign a paper stating that we wouldn’t drink, smoke, dance, watch movies, or swim in mixed company…we were told what we could wear to church and where there were dress shops that sold appropriate attire…I was told I couldn’t marry my fiance because the pastor didn’t witness to it…we were asked to submit our finances when we joined so they could determine how much we were expected to give…I was told I had to marry my keyboard player or we couldn’t keep ministering music together…These aren’t isolated instances, they’re common and I’ve heard them over and over. Even today, there are churches where women are condemned to hell if they wear pants or cut their hair and their husbands are condemned with them for not dictating what they should do.
I don’t think it’s too cynical. It’s a cartoon, not something meant to be taken very literally. It’s a generalization, and the generalization happens to be true in many of the more conservative denominations–at least the denominations that would post this sign!
I love it! And I completely agree with you preacherlady on everything you said.
PS And right now, I think David’s church is the only one I would set foot in. I have dealt with the attitudes he caricatures for the last 25 years. It’s time someone said something, and I appreciate the open honesty he displays. Seeing that I’m not the only one who feels this way is helpful, and I am amazed that there is someone still in church and in ministry who can be so open about the problems the church faces.
I have to say, I somewhat agree with Richard. My first reaction to today’s cartoon was..Whoa, this is very cynical. I think I would discribe it as ”Hyperbole”..over exaggeration for the sake of effect!.
Preacherlady: I hear what you are saying. However, I find it hard to believe that there would be a majority of churches that ‘abuse’ people the way you tell it. I do know that there are churches, cults whatever out there that do but I think they are in the minority. You obviously counsel people who have been deeply wouned by so called church. I also did counselling in the mental health field and I found that sometimes in certain situations I would be so effected by a particular ”horror storey” that I started to paint everything with the same brush. When I got to that state I would step back and try to look at things more objectively. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn’t.
Some people from my church are helping me with some DIY jobs in my flat tomorrow, and while this is very nice of them, I feel a bit like I’m selling my soul. One of them asked me if I’d been doing much reading and praying. I said, slightly puzzled, that I was always reading. I didn’t realise she meant the Bible! I don’t particularly want to read the Bible. I like the Song of Songs and The Psalms, but the rest of it just isn’t my sort of thing. I’ve read it all once and most of it several times over – why keep reading it again? Despite what some say about the language of some of the translations and its importance in the development of the English language, I don’t find it to be very well written (at least not to my tastes). I only like reading books that are really well written. Most of the New Testament is a series of didactic letters and most of the Old is about people killing each other – neither are really my cup of tea. So already I have this conflict going on that I find stressful. This is why I prefer to avoid Evangelicals.
Some Christian guy I didn’t know, gave me a bookmark that had on it the words,
‘ God loves you – yes, even you!’
I don’t know if it was intended as a joke, but I found it rather insulting. What did he mean, ‘even me’? Bloody cheek!
@Ann B…no, the majority of churches aren’t like that. For the past several years my ministry has been to those who have been hurt by churches, so of course I hear it all. And I live in a city where there is a large immigrant population and the ethnic churches tend towards legalism. There are many wonderful churches that I refer people to all the time and then there are those that look good as long as you don’t get involved. ..if you do…watch out! Poking fun at the disfunction is better than taking a shotgun to it…seriously, if I couldn’t laugh at this stuff I’d go nutsy kookoo, because they are hurting people, some of which were already hurting when they got there, in the name of God. Church isn’t supposed to hurt…its supposed to heal and casting out the demons in your nail polish isn’t going to do much of anything.
*sigh!*
Why is it like that in some churches?
Why can’t we imitate Christ more and let our power hungry selves starve?
Why can’t we love one another unconditionally, like Christ did?
*SIGH!!*
Some warning labels I might consider:
Warning:
Contents may be harmful or fatal if swallowed.
Prolonged exposure may cause drowsiness.
Keep away from children.
Contents under pressure.
May not be appropriate for all audiences.
User assumes all risks of injury in the use of this product.
May cause depression in some people.
@Richard, it is the nature of satire to be pointed and exaggerated. There is nothing in this cartoon that doesn’t have more than a grain of truth to it. Yes it’s exaggerated, but that doesn’t mean it’s untrue.
I am confident that there is not one church out there that is guilty of all these shortcomings. However, I am skeptical that there is any church out there that is completely free of all of them either. Churches are composed of people; and we are all imperfect. We will make mistakes, and our mistakes will be reflected in the churches we build.
In order to fix a problem, we first need to identify it. We are ill served if our shortcomings are glossed over, ignored, or tolerated. Humor, even bitter humor, is a way of reaching through our defenses and helping us to see and acknowledge these problems, and perhaps find the will to correct them.
I don’t believe NP is just saying, “Hey, the church sucks, the hell with it”. I believe he’s saying, “Here’s where we often fail; let’s try to stop doing that”. If NP didn’t want to fix these problems, I’m sure he’d either be a mainstream pastor who didn’t make waves, or a non-participant. I’ doubt he’d have this blog.
From what I see, NP is facing the very real and serious problems in the church, trying to make people aware of them in a gentle, non-threatening way, and to help us all face and fix them.
A cynic and a pessimist [Christian or Atheist] painting with a broad brush does NOTHING to heal. He only keeps the wounds open, and many bleed to death(fishon)
How can you say that with a straight face. Afterall, you base your shitty behaviour and that of your fellow christians on Adam and Eve. Now thats what a would call a VERY BROAD BRUSH.
so you are the house cartoonist of the friendly atheist now?
@people who say it’s cynical and disrespectful
Religion is cynical and disrespectful. If they want respect they need to give it. Atheists have been passive and friendly for too long. Time to stop playing nice. It obviously isn’t working. We are still marginalized, discriminated and disrespected all the time.
continued from above.
All throughout history, nobody ever gains freedom and rights by being passive. The oppressors don’t just hand out freedom and rights. It needs to be fought for.
Being passive and respectful = being easy to ignore.
Wow. The comments surrounding this sign mirror my experience at a multicampus Southern Baptist church which is run by pastors who are well-known authors of books about church structure and identity. In short, they are taking principles which have worked well in American business and are applying them to church. There is such a disconnect between what they THINK they are doing and what they are ACTUALLY doing, I never cease to be amazed.
For example, one of their bestsellers explains how they created a false church website and a job description for a worship leader with several supposedly “conflicting” values. The ideal candidate for the ministry position would have to subscribe to the “T.U.L.I.P.” theological position while at the same time agreeing to be a snakehandler. There were requirements for dressing “hip” and a bunch of other things I don’t recall at the moment.
When people sent in actual resumés, these “loving” pastors carefully collected data on the applicants and went on to use said data to mock the applicants in future sermons and their book. The book exposed such applicants as New Agey types who could never be successful in TRUE ministry because they have no consistent core theology.
These pastors/authors/Southern Baptist gurus THINK they are teaching churches it is necessary to create a theologically cohesive “vision”. What they have ACTUALLY done is to expose themselves as people who think it’s funny to humiliate others. And, whether they are aware of it or not, they have caused many “unchurched” people to shake their heads in wonder at how “loving” pastors could take pride in setting theological traps for people.
The Senior pastor in this muticampus church is insulated by the ones who really run the show; he is kept unaware of the constant conflict that occurs when people realize that they are being manipulated and push against that. He locks himself in his office, with very little interaction with the congregation, while the rest of the staff keep people away and show them the door if they get too vocal.
In my opinion, the entire congregation is manipulated by a strange mixture of entertainment, the initial rush of being invited into the inner circle, a sense that whatever the church leaders say has come directly from God (via God’s Word–which is really only their INTERPRETATION of scripture), and, ultimately, guilt and fear.
I’m glad that there are churches that do not embody these manipulative, physical growth and pop culture obsessions. I hope that one day I might wander into a church where people matter just as they are–where people can think for themselves without condemnation–where there are no papers to sign and oaths to swear–where I can just be a Christian and have some connection to other Christians who are content to allow authentic relationships to develop naturally–where I can just be myself. In the meantime, though… I am happy to be walking with God in pathways near, but not leading to, churches.
Really, I would just rather smell the T.U.L.I.P.s than handle the snakes…
It must me just me…… but I thought that this cartoon was (a) funny and (b) just a cartoon.
I think this is David’s role- a kind of gadfly- I’m sure there are these extemes (been guitly of them as well!). This helps me to think a lot. It also makes me think that I am not the only freak out there..
As a read the whole corpus of his posts, I see him as anything other than a cynic but someone who is trying to be true and honest and has managed to draw a whole range of people around his web site (many of us who can’t ever agree)- I think that is good!
brambonius said, on February 7th, 2010 at 9:23 am
so you are the house cartoonist of the friendly atheist now?
———Seems like the friendly atheist is going to come out of its shell, according to qwertyuiop: “Time to stop playing nice.”
brambonius, that should be very interesting. I am looking forward to reading qwertyuiop’s unfriendly barbs.
fishon
@fishon: I meant that this is the second Nakedpastor cartoon that I notice @ http://friendlyatheist.com/
@ qwertyuiop: Remaining “passive” is difficult, and often results in failure; yet there have been some noteworthy exceptions to this general rule. Gandhi and Dr. King come to mind. I suppose they were “active” in that they got involved and faced often extreme opposition. But they didn’t use violence or force to make their points.
Of course, there are times when choice boils down to fighting, or remaining a victim. In such cases, I believe fighting – violence – can be justified. Martyrdom is highly overrated, IMNSHO.
As for the plight of poor, oppressed Atheists, I’d rank that just about equal to the plight of the poor, oppressed Christians. I have no sympathy for the whingeing of either group, in the Western countries. If you’re in Afghanistan or somewhere, sure, you’re both oppressed. Otherwise, you’re just bandying words about without any serious oppression happening.
I don’t know where you live. If it’s in the US and you’re feeling oppressed, then get out there and vote – not ‘you’ singular (for all I know, you may in vote every election), but everyone who finds the intrusion of Christianity into government unacceptable. That would be the Atheists, moderate Christians (that’s the majority of people in this country right there), non-Christians, etc.
There are far more moderate Christians and Atheists than there are Fundamentalists. The only reason any sort of “oppression” can exist is because the Fundamentalists get their asses out and vote, whereas many who disagree are too lazy or apathetic to bother.
Until you (plural) have tried the voting route, any other means is premature and inappropriate. Oh, and doomed to fail, as well.
awsome cartoon, David – I like your tone..