I’ve always loved the biblical account of the Christmas story. It undermines all our ambitions, our strategies, our visions, our lofty goals, our significance, our influence, our leadership, or sense of entitlement.
The story makes it excessively clear that there was no one of any importance present at the scene. No one of influence was there.
It restores in me the hope that only children and those like them will save the world.
illustrating spiritual paths
Having a lot of crap in your life makes you fertile ground -
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,…
Never the less: my ambition, my strategies, my visions and lofty goals, my significance, desire to lead, sense of entitlement persist. It can not be denied.
Well, of course it can, and covered up too.
In fact it’s essential I do both: deny and cover.
How could I walk naked among those who would mock my ambition, my strategies, my vision and lofty goals, desire to lead, sense of entitlement?
I’d be banned. Better to say in the closet (so to speak) than to come out–naked and exposed in all my desire.
He came in all humility . . .
This is actually a beautiful reclaiming of the birth myth. Wonderful prose again. Thank you.
My artist daughter’s comment (after an explanation): “Awesome!”
Odd isn’t it, that in the ministry of most churches the hardest place to find help is in children’s church. Can’t for the life of me figure this one out. Seems like such a good place to remember the virtue of learning the most important ways of the kingdom are literally right under our noses.
Right under our gnosis. The simple. The humble. The goodness. Birth-myth reclamation all around 24/7/365 Makes one wonder how and where all the misery rises up? Somehow the obvious obscures itself. Odd. I’m thinking it’s got to be my ambition, strategies, visions and lofty goals
are a stumbling block, damnit. But knowing that don’t annihilate, know what I mean? Self-indulgent. As Thoreau says, I would report from some other perspective if I knew it better than my own point of view. But I can pretend, keep the covers on… A goodie. So as not to be cast out, cast away. Banned. Ex-communitied.
“Birth myth” Sabio? Are you suggesting that Jesus was never born?
Hmm…kind of makes me wonder how you know YOU exist…
OMG David! BRILLIANT!
I love this – perfect!
I wrote my own thoughts a couple of days ago that mirror your perspective.
http://nathanjhill.com/post/14446292385/where-was-jesus-born
going along with this, a new post I just did. How is the resistant church going to handle it when the Baby hangs out with the fringe group??? The “(Un)comfortable” Spiritual Blessings and Prophecy on Gay and Trans Christians http://j.mp/sBG3r5 New post from Canyonwalker
I think you have noted something important; that the people who you would expect to be at such a world changing event weren’t there. However, it is not children who will save our world – it’s that child in the manger who did save our world and is at work bringing that salvation to completion.
It takes a lot for the rich and powerful to awaken to the Immanence of Divine Love – camels, eye of a needle and all that!
The Divine Presence is still to be often found in the midst of shit.
There’s no saving this world…period.
The world and everything in it is not progressing, but headed towards an end.
There is a Redeemer, though. The One who was nailed to that bloody cross for your sins and mine, and the sins of the whole world. He will take care of what we could never, would never do for ourselves.
Thoreau said he wouldn’t cross the street to save the world–which sounds arrogant but I believed its humility.
Dear David, a facebook friend suggests I might better respond to your cartoon like this:
“i like the cartoon david, it reminds me that the birth of christ is a great reminder that he did not come to “shore up” our hierarchies, visions, and systems. however i can see myself in that spirit at times. trying to create my own systems of beliefs, trying to accomplish my own agenda. i see myself in Caeser but i want to see myself in the manger. can we point the finger at others or just ourselves?” This I confess is closer to the spirit of agree-ability I should practice, though I can’t deny all those attributes (ego-attributes you list) we seem to have to cover, and the denial and coverup stikes me as the toxic problem.
I was going to just say: wasn’t this this the child that already saved the world? ???
Also, I wanted to share this link to Athanasius’ “On the Incarnation of the Word” with introduction by C.S. Lewis. http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/history/ath-inc.htm
It’s all a matter of the perspective with which you choose to view the scene. Those are a sample of the important people. That kid in the manger also is important (at least to me, anyway).
Fabulous. But. What else is new, bro. Have a fabulous Christmas. Hope to see your face in 2012.
that would be awesome bill. you too.
@ Gary
Yes, a “myth”. The vast majority of scholars would admit the story largely mythologized, and some may think totally so. Many Christians are also comfortable with it being a Myth — just goes to show the variety of people calling themselves “Christians”.
I have no idea how many Christian commenters on this site are liberal/progressive, conservative, fundie, post-modernist or what? But I am sure that they all vary on the degree, value and use of myth they see in this story.
I think David’s use was beautiful — and I have no idea what he really thinks on this issue (and it doesn’t seem important). But we can all tell from the comments that many commentors want to tell us exactly how we should believe.
i agree sabio. it is a story.
and amazingly enough (or not so amazing?), the “important” one was busy plotting the baby’s demise. Nice piece.
“The vast majority of scholars would admit the story largely mythologized.”
Call them a “scholar” and they must be right.
This is not “science”. These are the same people who call believers unscientific, imbecilic, stupid…
Plus, this is not true. There are plenty of “scholars” who say no such thing.
@sabio..the scollars in Jesus time were the pharasies.they were the interlectual elite then and got it hoplessly wrong then as they do now. trouble is everyone tells them they are open minded and deep thinkers,now theres a myth
@ Bridgitte & Norm & others who may be coming
You will note that NakedPastor (David) said, “I agree sabio, It is a story.” Please take up the conversation with him. I won’t have this discusion on this thread. David, is this what you mean by “coming out”?
yeh dave, is this your “coming out”,are you realy a closset athiest? i did find you on the friendly athiest site.now lamenting hichins death,dont belive in hell,or the virgin birth,or was the whole Jesus thing a myth conjered up to control the masses.the crusifiction,rising from the dead thing a joke?the cynical humour makes a lot more sence now???????
Mythos: words considered “truth” representing
Ritual: actions taken in accommodation with truth. At some point (as with so many word) both terms took on exactly opposite significance: untruth, fiction, “mere” story–merely repetitive rites and routines.
Let me tell you a story…some call it the greatest story ever told; some call it oh my, just a story, not history…some worry about the details, lepers healed, blind seeing, wine intot water no no : the other way around. When I tell my daughter the story of Winnie the Pooh,she listens, takes it all in: a good story, a good story teller, a good story listener. (She never questions if bears can talk–which of course collapses the “once upon a time” what the hell!
Arguing with a colleague once, I suggested we might could get Beyond the Literal and the Metaphoric and he slammed the door on me, having no capacity to get beyond that double bind. Dog chasiing it’s tale.
“Neither logic nor sermons convince,” and as far as Davids Nativity Cartoon is concerned it nails me as he always does reminding me of undeniable but cover-up-able ambition, strategies, visions, my lofty goals, my significance, my influence wanna-be & sense of entitlement. History or Story makes no never mind,damnit.
You will note that NakedPastor (David) said, “I agree sabio, It is a story.” Please take up the conversation with him. I won’t have this discusion on this thread. David, is this what you mean by “coming out”?
Sabio, I have no idea why you censor yourself all the sudden.
I don’t see “myth” as a word because of which anyone should take offense. Labelling something as “myth” indicates more an approach than a belief. One seeks to find the meaning of the story, without the term itself necessarily indicated whether one believe the story happened as recorded. It indicates a belief that there is truth to be found in the story, whether or not the story is literally true.
And if anyone does “comes out” to say that they don’t necessarily believe the story to be literally true, are people really surprised? It’s been over years that many on this forum have demonstrated and professed different views of scripture, including quite a number who do not take a literal view. If some are only recognizing the possible implications of that now, that isn’t the same as others hiding their beliefs.
What I can see, though, is that there appears to be more hostility towards someone professing to be a Christian, but having different beliefs, than towards those who profess to be athiests. If someone were to say, “I’m a Christian, but I don’t believe in the virgin birth”, the response may very well be “Than just ‘come out’ as an atheist already”.
Part of that is just ignorance of the diversity of belief that already exists in Christianity. But perhaps it’s more an unease with things, people and beliefs that can’t be readily placed into the pre-existing categories one uses to define the world. There’s a paranoia with keeping the “purity” of Christianity and ousting those who don’t fit the mould.
For those who may find themselve agreeing with this “purity” message, note that this is how much of the Jewish law is presented – keeping the Jews separate and distinct from God’s “chosen people”. But, most of you are only “in the fold” because that sepsration mentality was done away with. The gates were flung open and everyone let it. And not just an invitation to everyone (“now you can join as long as you become just like those already ‘in’”) – that existed before to some extent. Instead, people were welcomed as they are. And we (Christins – and humans generally – historically) are continually coming to terms with just how broad that inclusion can be.
Now, all that paranoia about not “mixing kinds” should go with it, of which this hostility is but a symptom. Or I suggest you stop eating shrimp and wearing clothes of mixed fabrics.
should be “distinct as God’s ‘chosen people’” – hope that was clear (missed that para editing, apologies)
@ Brigitte
Well, I thought our host (David Hayward) would do a better job about answering your issues than I could. After all, it is not about Sabio-Brigitte, is it? It is about understanding the issue, no?
@ Christine
I agree that there are ways of holding your “Christianity” that allow huge amount of intellectual integrety and at the same time serve a wonder function in that person’s life. I agree that many atheists are not aware of the variety of Christianities that exist. I am also amazed at the number of Christians that dismiss you more progressive Christians by simply saying “Biblical Christianity” or “Orthodox Christianity” (I see a good cartoon there). Yet it is the progressive Christians who may have a larger affect on the oppressive elements of fundamentalists. In this way, David’s voice is extremely valuable.
Good points.
Nice work. As for the literalist complainers: pick up your Sunday newspaper and note that not all sections are written in the same genre. Get a grip. Mark Twain’s works are not literally true, but convey the truth about this country’s struggles over racism in the Civil War era and following. Must every thing be literal to be true? No. That would make for unimaginative boring writing. Luckily, the bible is anything but that!
Sabio, David comes on mostly to thank those who praise him, and that’s about it, from what I see. Oh, and give hell occasionally to some who disagree with his methods and then with words such as “piss” and “bully” and WTF. So I am not expecting him to jump in here. Anyhow, I was speaking to a sentence you wrote, so I don’t see why you can’t deal with it yourself.
@ Brigitte
Ah, I did not know David’s pattern here. But he did say he agreed after I replied to Gary. That seems much stronger than your typification of him. It is kind of fun to guess his positions through his drawings a reactions.
So here is a little:
You said:
But actually, probably the vast majority of Christian scholars admit to a large mythologizing of the Jesus stories. They would not call believers by the names you mention. I don’t call them that either.
But we don’t have to argue over “vast majority”, “majority” or “some” — you can have your opinions. The point is, many Christians scholar argue for the mythologizing. And you are right, lots of bright Christians also argue that it is all true.
I think people can be very bright and wrong. They can also be very sincere in wrong. One principle that allows this is compartmentalization (see my post with a pic illustrating it), another is just honest mistakes.
We are all vulnerable to these — believers and unbelievers alike.
@Sabio,
I was not referring to the virgin birth (though I accept this), the stable, the magi, the census, the shepherds, or any other element of the traditional story. I was instead asking for clarification on whether you question the existence of Jesus at all.
I have no trouble believing many parts of the bible are myth actually. But I do believe there was an actual man who history has come to know as Jesus.
JESUS CHRIST:
* saves us from sin and death
* forgives sins
* cleanses us from all our sins
* loves us
* heals us
* never sinned
* died for us, that we may live eternally
* deserves to be praised, day and night
JESUS CHRIST is:
(GOD is good, ALL the time!)
* the Son of GOD, the Father
* a true friend
* good
* holy
* merciful
* only teacher
* GOOD Shepherd
* wise counselor
* The Lamb of GOD who takes away the sins of the world
* worthy to open the Book of Life
* our LORD and our GOD
* ONE GOD, in being with the Father, and in unity with the Holy Spirit
* my lead
* my guide
* my help
* my protection from all evil
* my defender
* my remission for sins
* my offering for my sins
* my redeemer
* my Savior
* my salvation from sin and death
* MY GOD! (forever and ever.)
end of story.
Thank you JESUS, thank you JESUS!
What is the end of the story people? Our story?
OUR END IS TO GLORIFY CHRIST. That’s when you know you’re getting closer!! When there’s nothing left. There never was. ALL illusions to take you away from CHRIST. Want for nothing.
The LORD is my SHEPHERD, I shall NOT want.
Want for nothing, but HIM, JESUS CHRIST!
Are you done yet!? (FYI: there NOTHING here!) you’re looking in the WRONG place. the kingdom of heaven is within you! and where is JESUS, where is GOD? He is withIN YOU!
The kingdom of heaven has come upon you. what wars with you and where? sin wars with you, on the inside.
Remember that the ONE (GOD, our Jesus), that is withIN you, is greater than the one that is in the world. and that you are NOT alone, JESUS CHRIST will be with us, even unto the end of the age. HE’s there right with you, in ALL of your struggles. HE, CHRIST, knows and understands Everything you’re going through, and leads you, and guides you, if you would only follow after HIM. You are SECURE, as well you LIFE, in JESUS CHRIST.
There is nothing more sure than that! That JESUS CHRIST has got you! and HE ain’t letting go! Nor can anyone, or thing, take you from HIS grip b/c HE died for us, and GOD, the Father, first bought us with the blood of HIS SON, JESUS CHRSIT, being GOD’s own holy and righteous blood, and gave us to HIM, CHRIST.
We belong to CHRIST. We are HIS. and no one else’s. ¡Viva la libertad, a través de JESUCRISTO! !Gracias a DIOS, JESUCRISTO! te amo, te quiero, por siempre y siempre.
Aleluya, Aleluya
Sorry children are selfish. They are only interested in saving themselves.
dbmy3: which is where any of us must begin and all any of us can do.
@CHRIST believer and follower,
I am curious what is driving your bravado? I believe in and follow Christ as well. But I have to be honest…your approach drips of a typical televangelist and will turn off the vast majority of those you hope to reach with it.
Not trying to be mean spirited here…but honesty is important.
@ Gary:
Don’t you imagine that you and “CHRIST believer and follower” are very different creatures?
Perhaps the only thing you really have in common is calling yourselves Christians.
I contend that such identity is extremely weak. Instead, there are far deeper things in a person that what they say they believe in, what the profess or what they yell from the house tops.
It is those deeper things we should observe, not the simple flags waved.
Likewise, when someone calls themselves an Atheist, we really still know little of value about them. Well, unless you believe that the flags we wave and the confessions we make are the most important thing.
I contend that the ranting of the fellow above, tells our intuitions that this can not be true. If he is an embarrassment to Christians, it is because you are too identified with being a Christian and using the label in understanding others.
“We’re all crazy egos, hungry for love,” Sherwood Anderson’s reductive characterization of humans and humanism no matter what flags are waved or statements made, defenses struck, offense initiated. xtians, muslims, hindus, tantrics, true & true non-believers makes no never mind.
“See me, hear me, touch me, feed me, like if not love/hate me”: the media behind every message. Need we argue? Of course. How else get better and good?
@ Gary
I decided to take an hour and write a short post for you to address this issue in Christian terms so as to be a bit more clear: “Does Jesus save Buddhists”
Who knows, you may actually agree.
I’d wager to say David Hayward (our host) agrees — but it is hard to pull theology out of comics !! (and rightfully so: comics are way bigger than theology!)
Dear Gary: it’s an interesting article Sabio writes regarding C.S. Lewis and his flexibility. (Might be seen as heresy by fundamentalists, Sabio suggests–and should) Sabio credits Lewis with “transcending” his Christianity. Transcendence- often seen as “above the fray.” But it is a position that jumps the agon-opposition between thesis and antithesis (say) or any combination of opposing views and forces, and recognizes relationship–like Temperature does to the forces of Hot and Cold, say. I give you this inadequate review because my response to Sabio’s blog post seems banned (heretical? though I know welcomes opposition, if not yet transcending it. I admire his discipline. Mitt Romney resisting Newt. Why suffer fools?
@Sabio
I am looking forward to reading your post and will do so shortly. I wanted to reply first.
I suspect I will agree with much of what you wrote…while still will disagree with parts of it. But who knows for sure? What I do know is I love your comments about the flags we wave.
It may surprise you a bit…and it may not considering some of my comments…but I am not very comfortable with the term Christian anymore. It is not because I reject the identity of being a follower of Christ (in fact I embrace it) but rather because the term has so many negative connotations today, largely because of these very flags you identified.
In fact I identify as a Christian Universalist. In other words I do believe it is through the work of Christ that men are redeemed and have an eternal future, but I believe He redeemed ALL men…even those like you who do not believe He was or is. Will there be some type of hell/purgatory do cleanse those who reject him presently or lived particularly heinous lives? I honestly do not know. But I do believe we all are on an eternal path made sure by Christ.
Not your typical Christian for sure. LOL And I don’t consider these banners or flags that I wave….rather beliefs/perspectives that help me interact with ALL those I come in contact with. I very much embrace the law of love (golden rule as the world calls it) and find that the typical Christian view makes it nearly impossible to understand and live out, hence why I have left the church.
In the mean time…I need to check for renegade flags I may still be waving…grin.
@Sabio … Loved it!!
Thanx Gary. Yes, you seem the type of ‘heretical’ Christian that this non-theist could sing comfortably with in the choir!
PS: see my post on “My Favorite Kind of Christians” for more if you are interested.