You may also like...

10 Responses

  1. Sabio Lantz says:

    Sheep barely think for themselves and almost never run from abuse. So, the vision of no head or legs fits their idea.

    [ps, David, have you heard of Tom Holland — I just reviewed an article by him in First Things — he is a self-proclaimed non-theist Christian, perhaps similar to your reasons of continued identity. I disagreed with that particular article but he is a good writer.]

  2. Brigitte says:

    I read the article by Tom Holland just now. I wonder how Islam can be integrated with anything. In Germany, we had the ax and knife attack in Wuerzburg, yesterday, Franconia in Bavaria, my home turf. While looking up that news, I came across this attack as well:

    An Islamist also attacked a Sikh temple in Essen, Germany. If you are commanded to kill unbelievers, you are commanded to kill unbelievers. What is the solution to this, anywhere?

    The culture clash happens in all sorts of innocent places. Yesterday, I was at IKEA in Edmonton, and noticed many more covered ladies than before. Since, I am a grandma now, I did some hanging around the children’s section. There came a happy looking endomorphic man with a beard and no special garb and a toddler running about. I smiled at him, and he smiled at me, the way people do who take interest in children.

    A few moments later, I noticed his wife coming around the corner with the shopping cart. She was covered head to toe and in gloves for the hand, with only her eyes showing. I have never seen this in the town before.

    It makes me wonder. Do I smile at a man whose wife is lagging behind him covered head to toe in black? Do I speak with her or is all of that forbidden, as I must by nature be infidel and whore, as I am showing ankles in my capris, and arms in summer? How do you even navigate this? How can this gulf be bridged? Is there a secular answer when such strict religious rules are in effect for the other party?

  3. Sabio Lantz says:

    The early Christian Church was divided on obeying every letter of the Jewish law (as some Jesus story teller made him say) vs. giving up kosher law and mixing with Gentiles. Paul’s version won and the empire grew — well with the sword of the ruler after Constantine’s. Oh well. How do we live with Amish who treat their women so differently? Religion does weird things and they care not for secular arguments. But getting people to buy into agreed secular standards is easier than into one religious standard.

    I remember it said that Martin Buber and Gandhi argued over nonviolent resistance of the horrible, violent acts of other. Buber told Gandhi that it may work in India, but Jews will be slaughtered. He was right.

    The Pew Forum shows horrible statistics showing that the vast majority of Muslims in many countries (most of the middle east and africa) agree that if someone leaves Islam, they should be killed. Now what do you do with that? Well, you reform Islam. There are lots of countries with far less that believe that, but still, unfortunately, a dangerous percentage do.

    I agree, Brigitte, we need to be vigilant against Islam and turn the other cheek is probably not the solution I would offer. But it is complicated that Western imperialism did huge damage to that area — as it did everywhere else. But Islam has huge murderous notions in their holy scripture as is also found in Jewish holy writings. What to do?

  4. You know what’s interesting? I often get the reply, after talking about my conviction that we are all one, “But what about the Muslims?” Just a notice.

  5. Brigitte says:

    It worked in India because the British were not autocratic, megalomaniac killers, unlike Hitler, who did as he pleased, like Erdogan, these days. Some Germans call this current coup attempt his “Reichtagsbrand”.

    Bonhoeffer wracked his conscience over this being a follower of Gandhi, at heart, in this respect, but he opted for the violence action. For that he was hung.

  6. Brigitte says:

    Turning the other cheek is the potential task of the Christian, but not of the state. There is the just war tradition and this has difficulties, obviously, but the Christian state is not forced to just be run over.

    The compare the Amish who are pacifist with Muslims who are enjoined to engage in Jihad does not make any sense. We have many Hutterites here and they have never been anything but humble and hardworking, though I think their theology is wrong because of the Anabaptist radical understanding. For this they have been severely and unjustly persecuted, suffering much.

  7. Brigitte says:

    The question is, here, really, do we still want to be Christian states? As Holland asks: is baptism the thing?

  8. Sabio Lantz says:

    @ David,
    Yeah, I think the “we are all one” mantra is the same as “why can’t we all just get along.” Well, there are lots of reasons we are not all one, and lots of reasons why we will keep refusing to be. Humans!

    @ Brigitte
    Jesus ain’t no recipe for success, neither is Mohammed or Gandhi or Marx or Luther or any other idealized person.

  9. Brigitte says:

    We must shake the spiritual relativism, however much some see this as a recipe for success. It does not make sense to say that Muslims are like Amish. It does not make sense to have Hitler like the British crown.

    We have to try harder to get at the truth.

    Sabio, are you a reader of Martin Buber? Is that whom you were thinking of when you talked about Jewish atheism? — just asking. I wrote a paper once about the “I-Thou” relationship, ages ago for the basic philosophy of education class, but I never got into his general attitude toward a historically based faith. Oh, no, you were in a study group with Jewish atheists, I think you said. Hm, maybe that overlaps with Buber study?