Are Women Reliable Witnesses to Their Own Lives?

"Woman as Witness" cartoon by nakedpastor David Hayward

“Woman as Witness” cartoon by nakedpastor David Hayward

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I’m following the story of Kesha. Discouraging!

I’m following the story of Bill Cosby. Discouraging!

I’m following the story of Jian Ghomeshi. Discouraging!

I’m no lawyer, but it seems to me that the general legal consensus is that women can’t be relied upon as witnesses to their own lives.

I’ll tell you this much: if I were a woman and was sexually assaulted I would probably not report it.

Want to read a really good book that addresses this issue? Get Men Explain Things To Me by Rebecca Solnit .

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31 Responses

  1. Adam Julians says:

    I hear ya.

    My friend who is a lawyer says it’s a difficult thing to prove as it’s her word against his.

    Tough one in the light of what also has been said recently about abuse and not reporting it due to the legal process resulting in the victim re-living abuse.

    So what’s the answer with some men around that are predators? Well there is one area where all men are vulnerable. Perhaps being trained in and confident in a swift kick in the balls giving enough of a stunning effect to beat a hasty escape.

  2. Adam Julians says:

    At the same time I would share this. There was a time when I worked at a summer camp when there was an accusation of child molestation made.

    It was a 14 year old girl who liked the attention she was getting while being alone with myself and another counsellor then decided she didn’t like the way things went after a while with being with us.

    I was shocked, stunned and hurt that this accusation was been made. The explanation by the camp director was that it needed to be acted on seriously even though he was sure it was 99% the girl’s fault for what was happening due to the fear of the camp being closed down.

    I’d never experienced anything like this before but it was a 14 year old girl that had the power. It made me feel nervous to be around children for the rest of the time I was there which I don’t think could have been good for them either.

    Thankfully I and my fellow counsellor’s account corroborated and we had the support of the camp director.

    This is not to take the attention away from the very real difficulty of women who have been raped. But it may offer an explanation as to why rape can be so difficult to prove.

    Not easy.

  3. You do this EVERY TIME Adam and I think it is highly inappropriate!

  4. Adam Julians says:

    You make a similar comment David every time and I think that is highly inappropriate.

    Retribution towards men for what other men have done is wrong, abusive and compounds the problem of women being abused not relieves it.

    There was nothing patriarchal, misogynistic, or supportive of abuse in my comment yet your response is consistent with what you have alleged me of being on previous occasions.

    First, stated what the problem of the legal process in my first comment from an informed position i.e..my lawyer friend. This was clearly in support of the point your were making. Second was a personal sharing which resulted in difficulty for women in this case teenage girls.

    If this evil is to be addressed it obviously is going to require men and women working together. I don’t understand your responses and I think they hinder this therefore making things worse for women.

    It seems that you take this approach not just with me but with women as well whose views don’t gel with yours about how this issue and others like it are to be addressed. I’ve seen this happen both recently with Caryn and with others on a previous occasion prior to your “apology” as evidenced here:

    Nakedpastor David Hayward
    February 1, 2016 at 2:33 pm
    Caryn… I like what you say and appreciate it. When you say “admit his participation in the cycle of abuse”, I worry that this could be interpreted to mean that she’s as responsible as he is for the abuse. Some might think you mean that she should share the responsibility for her abuse. I know what you mean but worry some may not.

    K. Elizabeth Danahy
    March 15, 2015 at 9:24 pm
    David … thank you for responding! Once again, I am one of those abused, so as I already said, it absolutely makes sense for a survivor say angry, even abusive, things back – OR for a survivor to freak out and ask others to stop saying words that seem potentially abusive to them because they want to stop all abusive cycles (which is hardly described as “discomfort”). Sometimes the same person will do both in one hour (not that I know that from personal experience or anything…ahem ahem). Anyways, can you understand that, perhaps, both sets of actions make sense, both are uncomfortable, and there are times when both may be constructive (or destructive)? And that neither should be shamed?

    Nakedpastor David Hayward
    March 15, 2015 at 9:33 pm
    Actually, no. Let’s take the M.L. King Jr. marches. Or Gandhi. They were non-violent marches. What happens is that the power and authorities exercised their strength and exacted violence on the protestors. Why? Because it was illegal or disruptive to social order and peace. But it got on the news. It embarrassed those in power to see themselves inflicting such unbelievable violence on peaceful people who just wanted their rights respected. So there is an imbalance of power from the beginning. It’s not a fair fight.

    Kate
    March 16, 2015 at 12:30 am
    David,
    I wanted to clarify: your entire post does have a really good point: let abuse survivors express themselves. But, you aren’t really doing that in the comments here. You’re being dismissive, you’re accusing, etc.–just because what K. Elizabeth is saying doesn’t jive with your predetermined conclusions of how abuse survivors are expected to behave/what they’re expected to say. Hence, even though I know I sounded rude earlier, I think this needs repeating: people speaking up for abuse survivors are great. But those people also really do need to know when to sit down and listen.

    Your worry, your perception about how someone is coming across is about you. I have strong concern that with the handling of this kind of issue you may have ways of going about it that are not helpful and could be causing harm (albeit perhaps unintentionally). That you are perhaps not aware of doing this and instead of listening to some important voices I have concern that you may be projecting your own issue.

    I don’t know why you respond like this. Last time with Caryn it got you dislikes, with your “friend” on facebook around the same time he “unfriended” you with what you mention was your thought that he didn’t think you were qualified for addressing these kinds of issues. Do you mean to say in all of these instances mentioned that other are wrong or could perceived to be wrong and you are right?

    As a patron of Nakedpastor, I am invested in (and it is therefore in my interest that) you be succeeding. It saddens me to have read your comment.

    Kate above was right. Advocates of survivors are great but they really do need to know when to sit down and listen.

  5. Do your research! Under 5%… and even as low as 2%… of reported cases of rape are found fraudulent. And that’s JUST reported cases, which are actually a fraction of rape incidents.

    So when I do a cartoon and post on the injustice women experience when they report rape, it is inappropriate to talk about false reporting!

  6. Adam Julians says:

    “You do this” was not about false reporting and you know it David.

    Last time your alleged “patriarchy” and “changing the narrative”. Times before it has been about you alleging me supporting abuse for sharing of what I have experienced benefit of with practicing forgiveness. At other times it has been alleged “misogyny” culminating with you caling me a “dangerous man” and that you wouldn’t want to “live in a world that I would imagine”

    Please can the bullshit stop and there be reality about this.

    You don’t like the way I go about things when it comes to this. That doesn’t make you right and me wrong but it makes our approaches different, just as with others I have mentioned.

    When it comes to abuse your feelings David are not the priority but the healing of the abused.

    I just want these kind of exchanges to stop. None of this helps women. At all.

  7. Brian says:

    Thank you for this cartoon, David.

  8. Gary says:

    “Please can the bullshit stop and there be reality about this.”.

    That line made me laugh out loud. Oh the irony.

    I agree with you David. 😉

  9. Gary says:

    Of course I am now prepared for the excessive barrage of personal attacks about to be hurled my way.

    LMFAO

  10. Caryn LeMur says:

    Adam: Hang with me for a moment.

    A complex issue has multiple points to be discussed.

    May I offer that your approach is circumspect? It looks at all the points – and tends to counter-balance the discussion. And, unfortunately… your input can be interpreted as ‘muddying the water’ and derailing (rather than adding to) the discussion.

    Hang with me. Let us imagine that we were discussing a cartoon on motorcycles. You post about your powerful bikes that you loved. And your Ducati. And the joy of riding. And how deeply it affected you. And someone posts about the horror when they were in an ‘accident’, and the police did not believe them, and how badly they were treated. Others mention police interactions…. and we can sense the tears and anger… and….

    And then I post ‘what about all the horses put out of work because of the motorcycles? In fact, what about my personal horse situation?’

    Can you see how my comment, while circumspect and offered as a balance, just undercut the drift and intensity of the motorcycle-and-police conversation? Without meaning to, I just negated their emotions and anger.

    “Rejoice with those that rejoice; weep with those that weep” is a verse I have to remind myself about over and over. It means to be reflective. It means to add a similar story that is in keeping with the emotional intensity of the other posters.

    It does not mean to counter-balance the discussion. This verse means just the opposite.

    It does not mean that their story is an opening for my ‘on the other hand’ story. This verse means that I forego the ‘on the other hand’ story – however true and valid my ‘horse’ experience may have been.

    When the emotional stakes are high, and when the discussion is on a gross injustice, we that post must be more reflective, than counter-balancing. [When it is an academic, non-emotional discussion, then hell… introduce anything that may pertain.]

    Hang with me a bit more, ok?

    I am a former military officer, as you were. I was trained to ‘look at the big picture’, and I imagine that you were trained in a similar fashion.

    I am also trained in searching out a ‘systems approach’, which helps us to see all the sub-systems that may be working in the mega-system…. or may need to be addressed.

    But Adam, you and I both need to ‘roll with’ the main point of the discussion for quite a time, before we offer a counterpoint to balance the flow of the conversation.

    I offer that your first post was reflective of the cartoon’s anger and frustration, with mention of lawyers and a swift kick.

    I offer that your second post, was valid… but it came across as a ‘what about my horse’ comment in the midst of an intense cartoon.

    Hang in there.

    You are an excellent contributor, by the way. Don’t stop.

    May I offer that before you press that “Post Comment” button, you ask yourself, “Is my comment a ‘On the other hand’ counter-balance comment? Is my comment reflective of the issue pointed out, or am I introducing a ‘what about my horse experience’ in the midst of a motor-cycle intense discussion?”

    Again, don’t stop, my friend.

    Caryn

  11. Kristin says:

    You are spot on David. Why would anyone report abuse? Especially women when it’s of a sexual nature. To make it worse coercive control (a huge element in domestic and family violence) is not illegal in many places (like here in Australia).

    The legal process is frequently secondary trauma. With regard to domestic violence I see things are shifting significantly here, at least in the police response that I have experienced in recent months. However the courts are not so open to shifting. I have been seeking to extend an intervention order that the police took out for my youngest child against her father. This is a terrifying process for me, I have never been able to report my own childhood abusers – most of it happened in the US decades ago, and I have CPTSD as a result of the abuse. I also know from friends that the legal process can be abusive. Because of this I have been struggling massively to get myself back to the court to request an extension.

    When I finally went (seeking an interim extension until a hearing), after having to sit for over an hour in two courts listening to other people’s trauma, I was treated so rudely and dismissively by the magistrate that I almost collapsed. He did not listen, instead he talked over the top of me and criticised me. When we left the building a man behind us started screaming abuse at anyone and everyone (and threatening murder). I had a panic attack. I am scared about going back in a month, yet I must press on to try to protect my daughter.

    My lawyer says a significant part of the court’s problem is that some courts are being made to do things they were never designed for – like magistrates hearing intervention order applications. Some magistrates do a wonderful job; they are patient and respectful listeners, others are not. We need specialised family violence courts; where the people on the bench actually understand what trauma looks like (survivors often present poorly, abusers tend to present well – charming, friendly, respectful) and who “get” the complexity of it, and the struggle for a traumatised person to trust anyone in authority will actually give a damn, let alone hold hope for justice.

    The post was about rape, have I been raped? Technically no. But what do you call it when you repeatedly have sex with someone, not because you want to but because it’s the only way to make the emotional abuse stop for a while? The punitive part of me says you call that a f-ing idiot. I’m trying to grow my self-compassion, which tells me clearly that I would never even think that, let alone say it, of anyone else in the same situation.

    Keep up the good work.

  12. Thanks Kristin for that vulnerable comment. It is discouraging. All I can think of doing is doing what I do.

  13. Adam Julians says:

    Gary, that will be you replying to my comment then. Seems what I said about that happening in spite of you commenting that you wouldn’t has come true doesn’t it?

    Caryn it is scapegoating that is going on here that I would suggest. This is not about me. It is about justice for raped / abused women. My first comment was to pass on information from an informed legal position. This in support of the cartoon and how tough that makes it with a suggestion of a swift kick to the balls. So I am surprised if anyone takes that to be unempathetic or do anything to distract from the “drift or intensity”.

    As for my second comment, it was a look at understanding why things might be so difficult for women who have been raped to be believed. I shared some of my experience this is true but not with it being “what about me”. Rather grappling with understanding.

    I am not the one making this about me. David is, and even that is not about me but his perception about me which is not about me but his perception, which is about him.

    As for interpretations, I am not responsible for someone else’s interpretation or criticism based on their interpretation. And explaining intention as I have here over time is starting to appear to not be a profitable use of time.

    Nevertheless I appreciate your contribution and compliment about my contributions. If it were not for you I probably wouldn’t be commenting here. I mean that as a compliment.

  14. Gary says:

    LMAO. Clearly I was referring to your nonsense in that thread. No need to attempt to twist my meaning for your purposes. Everyone can see your agenda plainly.

  15. Adam Julians says:

    Gary, the conversation went:

    “Gary
    January 26, 2016 at 11:56 am
    … I will not reply to you again.
    Adam Julians
    January 26, 2016 at 1:23 pm
    I bet you will reply to me again Gary”

    What part of that was “clearly” about that thread?
    Who is doing the twisting?

    If you accuse people enough of things (with or without your derisory laughter) eventually someone is going to point things out to you about what you are doing. And if you accuse others of things you are doing then you bring judgement on yourself.

    Let me ask you a question – what are you more interested in here. Being attentive to rape and other forms of abuse that women face and being beside women in what they are going through, fostering healing or trolling? .

  16. Gary says:

    Keep trying Adam. Lol. Twist to your hearts content. I don’t fall prey to your juvenile attempts to manipulate. And it clearly pisses you off. And yes I am laughing my fucking ass off at you.

  17. Caryn LeMur says:

    Adam: thank you for the kind words, and I do take them as a compliment.

    I lean towards your first comment as being reflective, and in support of the cartoon. No problems there (at least, no problems for me…. ).

    But… let’s touch on that second post about your experience.

    I have little doubt that you had great intentions in sharing your second comment. Judging from your posts, I wager that, in your mind, the cartoon was about the testimony of the abused not being believed.

    And so, you shared your story about a time when your own testimony was not believed.

    As best as I understand, you are positioning your posts that ‘abuse’ must be approached as a unisex issue (neither male nor female). After all, a woman’s testimony of abuse could be equally false.

    But Adam, here in the States, 95% of the time a woman’s testimony concerning her abuse has been shown to be true. And still, her testimony is discouraged, handled roughly, and used as evidence of her loose morals by friends, family, church, and the legal intake system.

    Pause for a moment… Your story happens to also be about the 05% of the time when a woman’s testimony is a lie. And, by implication, how her testimony should have been discouraged, ignored, or used as evidence of her youthful instability.

    By accident, you just wrote the very opposite of the direction of David’s cartoon.

    By way of explanation:

    Patriarchy is very real in the States. David, though Canadian (for which we forgive him 😉 ), is deeply attuned to the Patriarchy world-view of the States – he married an American, attended Bible College and Seminary in the US, and pastored here as well as in Canada.

    Patriarchy is a deep intrinsic part of almost all the Evangelical Movement. So, those of us in the States (especially ex-Evangelicals) most likely will continue to interpret your comments in light of our culture.

    You are not responsible for our interpretation… but our interpretation of your comments will continue.

    In other words, if David posts a cartoon about Female pastors, Female abused, Female Speakers, and/or Female professors…. then Adam, the point is that the theme is about Females.

    It is not about a unisex issue. At least, not here in the States.

    And every time you try to change the point of a female-based cartoon from a female issue to a unisex issue, even with your personal and valid testimony, you’ll probably be receiving a rough reply that wonders how on earth you could be so calloused, self-centered, and derailing an important conversation.

    Because in the States, Patriarchy is real.

    And it sucks.

  18. TLH says:

    I think there are a lot of things wrong about how we approach the issue of sexual assault and rape.

    One is: it’s very sexist. It paints men as villains. It paints women as injured innocents. It’s not that simple.

    It also doesn’t speak of the fact that if sexual assault happens to a man, one might say he has an even worse time being believed than a woman would have. Lots of people cannot believe a man can be sexually assaulted or raped.

    The way we speak of it also doesn’t address if it happens among gay people. So our typical discussions of it are very heterosexist.

    And I say this as a survivor of assault, by one male person and one female person.

    We need to get a handle on this.

  19. TLH says:

    Oh and whether anyone likes it or not, it is important to bring up false reporting. If a woman falsely accuses a man of rape, and she is lying, why is it “ok” to ruin his life by having him be on a sex offender’s list that he cannot get off of? How is that just? How is that fair? Why should he suffer if he actually IS innocent and some woman is getting back at him for a perceived slight, or she just has a case of the next-morning regrets? I don’t think that’s cool at all. Not in the least.

    I’m female and I say this.

    We must get a handle on that too. I don’t see why it’s so hard to teach people 1: sexual coercion is wrong and 2: lying about sexual coercion is also wrong.

    I don’t see a problem here.

  20. Yes TLH but the point the cartoon is trying to make, as well as the post, is that women are NOT believed when they do report rape. And our concern for false reporting is disproportionate to this concern.

  21. Caryn LeMur says:

    TLH: I have worked with the prison system as a chaplain’s assistant, and in later years bringing food to released sex offenders living in hidden camps in the woods.

    I am not aware of any state that places a man on a sex offender list based on a false report or lie by a woman. The man is on the Sex Offender list/registry due to court conviction.

    What state/country places a man on a SO registry based on your premise?

  22. Caryn LeMur says:

    Trigger Warning:

    This video shows a woman recounting her experience with her abusive husband, now deceased.

    Not for the faint of heart to see her speaking to the legislature. The video is Not gory, and Not violent… but her testimony is incredibly disturbing on two levels: the number of times she was not believed, and how the law treated her husband.

    https://www.facebook.com/thinkpolca/videos/947291425343369/

  23. Caryn LeMur says:

    TLH: You also brought up the hetero-normative view of sexual assault.

    As a male-to-female transsexual, with gay and trans friends, I hear you.

    Yes, there can be sexual coercion between same-sex couples. Yes, there can be sexual assault upon a transsexual – and sometimes very violent. We remember our dead each year.

    A gay man reporting sexual assault may have an even greater barrier to filing a report for the police than a woman married to a man. A lesbian complaining about abuse by her butch partner may be laughed at by the officers taking the report. A trans-woman may be told ‘you asked for this rough sex the day you had a sex change operation’ …. it can be ugly out there for the LGBT community.

    But the number of false reports is still estimated at 5% …. only 5%.

    I therefore offer that David’s cartoon stands for 95% of the world view.

  24. Adam Julians says:

    Gary – you can laugh all you like. I don’t know why David doesn’t address your going off topic and the rape and abuse of women is not a laughing matter. Period. I’m surprised other people haven’t commented in a “pissed off” way about that. its not about you. The priority is not with your opinions but the healing to women that has been raped / abused. You are proud but you should be ashamed of yourself.

    Caryn,

    First, obviously, the cartoon was about women being raped and not being believed and suffering on top of being raped, pain on top of pain, so that is not about being “in my mind”. Second, you have interpreted my second comment as being about my “own testimony was not believed.” Clearly I mentioned that the camp director at the time talked of it being 99% not about either me or the other counselor. So I have no idea where you have got your conclusion about that from. Rather than not being believed, the opposite was true!

    Again, legally it is one persons word against another. Why you have not taken that what I have mentioned this is not acknowledging the difficulty faces abuse victims and in me saying “not easy” is anything other then communicating empathy I don’t understand.

    You seem to be implying that I am being patriarchal or supporting patriarchy. I reject that and your claim that I write the opposite of David’s cartoon. How you can comment like that and yet also say I am an “excellent contributor” and appeal to me “don’t stop” is bewildering to me.

    Anyway this is not working out as I intended. David, Gary and you are making this about your interpretations of my comments. This is taking attention it taking away from the topic and more importantly than what I have discussed, the brave sharing by Kristin and energy that could be better applied to empathy for her and empowerment for her in the difficult and painful issues she is facing.

    I want no part in that or similar any more.

    I think all three of you are wrong in your understanding about how I have commented here. Nevertheless, I acknowledge that you have a consensus about this. Therefore for the sake of women who have been raped / abused and attention being on healing for women facing such trauma, rather than these kinds of exchanges taking up time, I shall be considering my contributions and possibility whether or not to be part of such discussions in the future.

  25. Gary says:

    Interestingly enough David, I think some of the comments in this thread illustrate the problem your cartoon is addressing.

  26. tlh says:

    I feel deeply compelled to leave this here: How To Destroy A Fellow Airman In Four Words

    For the love of humanity, I am begging people to carefully read every word of this article. This is completely shameful.

    http://www.jqpublicblog.com/how-to-destroy-a-fellow-airman-in-four-words-the/

  27. tlh says:

    A USAF officer’s career, crushed by a woman who falsely accused him – and TOLD HIM she was going to do it. Women ARE using this as a club, to beat men into submission and to get them to do what they want them to do.

    “According to trial testimony, she threatened in the course of that contentious breakup that if Turpiano walked away from the relationship, she would accuse him of sexually assaulting her. Soon thereafter, she made good on that threat.”

    The sad part is that this throws absolutely every woman’s call for help when she IS assaulted into question. I’m a survivor of sexual assault and I say this – after incidents like this, it’s easy to dismiss all women as hysterical or as conniving harridans out to destroy men in return for some perceived slight.

    Don’t think it doesn’t happen and stop denying that it does. Just stop!

  28. tlh: No one is denying that this isn’t happening. What is being said in this post is that violence against women is by far more frequent and unanswered.

  29. Adam Julians says:

    TLH Being ex Air Force, I was interested in the article you posted.

    It states “grazing a breast during consensual dirty dancing and giving an unwelcome hug at a bar.

    For these crimes, he received three months confinement, three months forfeiture of pay, a Letter of Reprimand, and Dismissal from the Air Force.”

    So “dismissal” being the same as “dihonourable discharge” for an enlisted airman.

    I go partner dancing most weeks – modern jive. It’s not uncommon for the side of a partners breast to unintentionally be glanced. I’ts happened once or twice for me in 7 years of dancing. I would make a joke about it and say Oh I did not just touch your boob” or something like that and my partner would laugh. Sometimes I have given someone a hug when she would have preferred a handshake and I have read the signals wrong.

    So for someone to lose their job and face imprisonment for that is something that is something I could have faced in a similar situation. I am not surprised about the fear that induces. Sadly, form my experience in the States, I am not surprised to have read of this happening. It’s making it’s way over to the UK too.

    It will be unlikely that what you have shared will be interpreted here by a consensus as being other than being “patriarchal” and “calloused, self-centered, and derailing an important conversation” in keeping with what David has said about false accusation.

    So – where does that leave things. Fear of patriarchy, of women being raped and not believed. Fear of being falsely accused. I can’t claim to be any expert in what it is like in a North American context other than the experience I have shared, but reading this makes me glad to be living in the UK.

    What is to be done with the fear? It’s easy to apportion blame. Blame a genuine victim for damaging someone’s reputation, blame patriarchy, demonise every man. It’s easy to do. But none of that fosters healing, empowerment and security for women or brings a male perpetrator of a crime to justice. What it may do is provide a temporary relief form feelings about abuse for some at the expense of others.

    However bringing about change, healing, justice is hard. It seems that few people choose this and are likely to find that they are faced with all kinds of opposition in doing so. Logically, this can only make things fearful for women, and make the men that do abuse more powerful at the cost of the innocent (both men and women).

  30. Adam Julians says:

    David, I have reflected on this conversation. A lot. To me it epitomises similar that have gone on over the years.

    I hear that you think my approach in this issue is “highly inappropriate”. I hear that your response to tlh’s concern is to hear and then point to the message you are conveying in your cartoon and post.

    I hear the discouragement.

    My question – can there be hope brought where there is discouragement, healing where there is pain, justice where there is a crime? Surely, it must require interdependence or police, the justice system, counselors, friends and advocates in the service of victims of abuse?
    From the perspective of WOMEN and listening can I suggest consideration of this conversation?
    TLH
    February 22, 2016 at 10:37 pm
    I think there are a lot of things wrong… It paints women as injured innocents. It’s not that simple…
    TLH
    February 22, 2016 at 10:43 pm
    …it is important to bring up false reporting… I don’t think that’s cool at all. Not in the least.
    I’m female and I say this.
    Nakedpastor David Hayward
    February 22, 2016 at 10:45 pm
    Yes TLH but the point the cartoon is trying to make, as well as the post, is…
    tlh
    February 26, 2016 at 10:32 am

    The sad part is that this throws absolutely every woman’s call for help when she IS assaulted into question… it’s easy to dismiss all women as hysterical or as conniving harridans out to destroy men in return for some perceived slight.
    Nakedpastor David Hayward
    February 26, 2016 at 10:35 am
    tlh: No one is denying that this isn’t happening. What is being said in this post is…
    Do you think tlh, a survivor of abuse is feeling listened to by you? Maybe Gary has a point above about the comments illustrating the point of the cartoon?
    Listening to you:
    Nakedpastor David Hayward
    July 11, 2015 at 2:37 pm
    It is one thing to argue against my ideas. That’s what I have done when critiquing other people on their posts… I have control over my own house.

    OK so you invite argument/discussion about ideas with the caveat that you have control. OK I have no problem with that. I have this saying that disagreement isn’t always bad but never disagreeing is.

    I wonder, is there a possibility of working together to foster healing and bring about justice? It’s what we all want isn’t it? Can we listen to one another? Would that be a good place to start?

    Listen to what your counsellor friend Phyllis Mathis has said “retribution towards men for what other men have done is wrong, abusive and compounds a problem”. She doesn’t mind me quoting her here, I checked.

    Listening to another of your friends the ex-pastor of a mega church Kathy Escobar “the best way for abuse survivors to heal… Reflection and Inner Knowledge… marked by humility, openness, and willingness.. realizing so much of what we’ve ascribed to isn’t leading to life… [leading to] Known Purpose… deep compassion for ourselves and others… We have a deeper security that guides us… and a stable, secure foundation to live from.”
    So it not being about retribution but reflecting, knowing, compassion for ourselves and others, with security guiding us and a stable, foundation to live from.
    Listening to WOMEN survivours:

    Julie McMahon
    April 27, 2015 at 5:53 pm
    Thank you for listening and caring. I am just one casualty… I am sorry for all who have been mistreated and tossed aside in the name of book endorsements/sales and filling an event. It’s wrong… and it will eventually catch up with them… I would be crushed without my faith.

    Sue Bonner
    June 10, 2015 at 4:21 pm
    …in too many cases there is a blatant hatred of men… [and] hostility toward women who choose to stay at home with their children.

    This would seem to affirm with Kathy and Phyllis have said doesn’t it?

    Being mindful of our conversation before when I appeared under the nom de plume “Ducatihero”(DH – Ducatihero, NP – Naked Pastor)
    DH “I am in favour of recovering the biblical understanding of shaming in the sense that “God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong” 1 cor 1:27″
    NP “I think that helps… Yes, I understand where you’re coming from.”

    So the “shaming” in this sense being helpful from listening to what you say. So with compassion, kindness often being perceived as weekness and “powering up” often being perceived a strong in the world. The only way I know to be secure and have a firm foundation is as Julie talks of with faith. No human system, ideology etc will offer real security. So can we do this with care for victims and fostering justice not retribution?
    What kind of a world do we want to live in? One of love or hate?
    In George Orwell’s 1984 there is the character Emmanuel Goldstein toward whom government party members whip citizens into a frenzy of “hate speak” against. This satisfies citizens subdued feelings of anxiety and hatred from leading a wretched, controlled existence. By redirecting these feelings towards him and enemies that may not exist, the government subdues any dissenting voices.

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