I had no idea yesterday’s post would stir up so much controversy. And even though this blog is a place for me to express my personal opinion, I have to admit that I do believe that this view of “vision” would be best for all. It was Bonhoeffer, not the nakedpastor, who said that “God hates visionary dreamingâ€! Why? Because it hates and destroys the community that already exits as it is. He said, “When the morning mists of dreams vanish, then dawns the bright day of… fellowship.” He continues:
Innumerable times a whole Christian community has broken down because it has sprung from a wish dream. The serious Christian, set down for the first time in a Christian community, is likely to bring with him a very definite idea of what Christian life together should be and try to realize it. But God’s grace speedily shatters such dreams. Just as surely as God desires to lead us to a knowledge of genuine Christian fellowship, so surely must we be overwhelmed be a great disillusionment with others, with Christians in general, and, if we are fortunate, with ourselves.
And again:
Every human wish dream that is injected into the Christian community is a hindrance to genuine community and must be banished if genuine community is to survive. He who loves his dream of a community more than the Christian community itself becomes a destroyer of the latter, even though his personal intentions may be ever so honest and earnest and sacrificial.
When will we learn? It is time for huge and universal change. I’m not just tired of vision and mission and goals. I’ve come to conclude that universally for the church these are deadly to what is and an affront to grace! The non-Christian philosopher Krishnamurti said,
The feeling that one must BE something is the beginning of deception, and, of course, this idealistic attitude leads to various forms of hypocrisy.
Time to stop dreaming and get down to who we are. That is enough. We’ve been practicing this, and if you need to know… it does work! But even saying that is a defiling of it. As Luther once said, “Put two lovers in a bedroom together… you won’t have to tell them what to do!” I wonder if all our strategies, mission statements, vision-casting, and goal-setting are a psycho-sexual avoidance of truth and reality.
The fine art photograph is the ingenious creation of my friend Mark Hemmings.
Contributions to nakedpastor are greatly appreciated.
David Hayward is an artist trapped in a pastor's body, stripping to the essential.
to think… when i sent my first comment in i was thinking, “poor nudie reverend, nobody’s commented on his blog…” now look… my vision of a naked american sat forlornly in front of his computer screen proved to be completely wrong! visions, pah!
Dont make a theology out of jaded experience…..this is what some of you are doing. From my viewpoint….some of you had a crappy experience and throwing the baby out with the bathwater and masking it in spirituality….which to me is the greater offense of rational.
Some people learn from their mistakes. Some people learn from the mistakes of others. Some people learn from the mistakes of the world. Like Paul with the official church of his day: he wiped his feet clean and moved on, realizing that the old wineskins couldn’t hold the new wine. Simple as that.
“throwing the baby out with the bathwater and masking it in spirituality”
there never was a baby and there never was any bathwater, that’s the trouble with ‘vision’. is there really a biblically sound theological view that says we must follow a vision?.. i don’t believe so.
“which to me is the greater offense of rational.”
personally i’m happy to offend rationale, if it gets in the way of god… always preferred kirk to spock… (maybe it’s cos he was canadian!)
isn’t it ironic, how vision can make you blind?!
You can also form a theology based on a positive experience.
Lots of great comments you guys, I’m never disappointed in the meaty wisdom offered here.
If it was just one crappy experience leading to tossing the baby, I would agree with you, John. How about twenty or thirty crappy experiences? What do you do with experience after experience where you are told that what you think or feel to be God’s leading is NOT, where you are told that your “job” as a church member is to remain completely loyal to all visions of the pastors (unless, of course, they are doing something (and I quote) “…REALLY wrong such as adultery or use of illegal drugs,” and where you are told again and again (and I quote) “People who don’t submit to leaders have something wrong with them.”
Hmmmm…I would guess that most people who are expressing concern with vision casting have been in these situations on a regular basis. Personally, I have experienced this type of leader manipulation many times:
-Pentecostal church under the leadership of at least three different senior ministers
(One of whom lied consistently to the board denying an extramarital affair that continued for eleven years!)
-Christian liberal arts college which forced at least two professors to resign for legalistic reasons
-Non-denominational church in which several of us who were leaving after a Sunday School class to attend worship services at another church were confronted by the main pastor in the parking lot who literally blocked our exit until we satisfied his curiousity about why we were leaving. (We didn’t go back. Ever.)
-homeschooling groups which subtly imply that a particular “Christian” curriculum is better than (GASP!) “secular humanist” materials.
-Christian school whose teacher handbook rivals any cult requirements I’ve ever heard of
-Baptist church with a “We welcome everyone” vision and a “Not everyone qualifies for inclusion in the inner circle” reality.
Isn’t it RATIONAL to learn from experiences? How silly to keep touching hot things when all you get is burned!
I haven’t thrown out the baby; I’m trying to protect it by purifying the bathwater. (And I am happy to know that now I can buy purification tablets so I don’t even have to go near that damn hot stove!)
It’s funny, but it seems to me that everything that has been said about vision COULD BE said about Christianity in general–depending on your point of view.
It is rather weird, fortuitous, and supernatural (a friend agreed) that you should post these posts this week. Last week I was whining to a friend about not having direction in my life. To which he responded something to the effect of why do we have to try to GO SOMEWHERE all the time. Okay, so maybe those weren’t his exact words but essentially he was asking me why can’t I be content with where God has brought me right here — right now.
I’m not content because I’ve allowed the so-called “vision” taint and create a sense of incapability and disdain for the very place where God has brought me. All for the hope of a better vision. I think we want a vision because we have been raised believing that we should have a vision and if we don’t then we are completely lazy, disorganized, and not very American — in other words, we aren’t acceptable without having a vision to bring to the table. So be it.
Anyway, thanks for these past few posts.
Vision Shmision…. I’ve spent too many years with people dreaming about the next big thing that they’ve lost sight of the day-to-day. The low Protestant/evangelical/fundamentalist churches that litter the American countryside have simply forgotten that Jesus in the Gospels was more concerned with bringing the Kingdom to Earth today (and everyday) than planning for some pie-in-the-sky, everything-is-wonderful future.
I, like Nate (& many others it seems), have been plagued with these ideas of vision & the need to have a vision at all times. I’ve come to feel that I’d rather be short-sighted than far-sighted; I’d rather take care of the hurts & needs in front of me right now than manifest some utopia in the far-off future. I used to get frustrated with not having a purpose or the right kind of 3-, 5-, & 10-year plan, but not anymore. I’m in the midst of the right now for a reason — I might not know what tomorrow looks like & I’m OK with that.
Perhaps this has been said over the past 100+ comments in two posts. If so, I humbly prostrate myself and beg forgiveness…
I realize that “vision” has a different connotation depending on your experience. The context I hear it most in is when a church is seeking what God would have them do. In reality, it’s not really the church but the pastor(s) who brings the message down from the mountain.
The problem creeps in because the “vision” is not ascribed to the pastor’s personal preferences. But instead it’s given as the will of God Himself. So if you don’t “get” the vision or have some concerns then you’re not only not submitting to church leadership, but you’re outside of God’s will. Your spirituality is in question and your commitment to the church is seen as lacking.
And then what if the vision fails? Then the blame falls on the congregation and their “lack of faith” or some such scapegoat for the pastor’s failed gaze into the crystal ball.
This kind of vision sucks and it’s only purpose is to spiritualize mere opinion.
Ah, Adam P. Newton, I don’t believe anyone in these responses has advocated the need for having vision “all the time.” I’ve gone through long periods with no vision just waiting for God to show me what to do, where to go. And usually when he does, the answer is fairly short-term; the next two years or the next four years.
But acknowledging that there isn’t vision “all the time” is a far cry from saying that all vision is demonic or bondage or whatever…
to the americans on this blog…
how do the ‘american dream’ and the need to have a vision relate?.. as someone who has american friends but has never visited, it seems that vision is such a key to the way the culture moves… is this true in reality and how do you understand the way your american upbringing has affected your faith?
it’s a question i often ask myself. i’m english, the scriptures aren’t… and i bring my cultural understanding and limitations to my faith, hoping that i can find the truth…
it just strikes me that in this particular conversation there is something cultural that would always expect you to follow a vision… is this true, or just rubbish?
what does it say in james? if someone is hungry and you say ‘god bless you’…what the f*** does that do for that man….give him some f*cking bread…live NOW…not in some vision, not in what “may” come, live NOW, love NOW, give bread Now.
Jon Birch:
Yes, we Americans do seem to thrive on having a vision and being goal obsessed and making that “American dream” a reality. We are taught from an early age that goal setting is necessary, that bigger is better, that lack of success means lack of gumption, etc., etc. It’s hard for most Americans to really kick back and relax.
This emphasis on self-improvement and goal setting has permeated the American church in a big way. It has permeated families in a big way. And not always with the best of results.
I think that this emphasis on the goals–the dream–the vision–has become one of many masks we wear. Behind it, marriages and families and churches are falling apart; but it’s okay because the numbers on the papers look good. There are “growing” megachurches that don’t remove former members names from the roster, marriages of twenty years that have been dead for eight, families whose smiling faces at Disneyworld can’t be found anywhere behind closed doors at home. America is paying a price for the “dream” because we can’t fix what we don’t acknowledge. And over-preoccupation with the dream takes our focus from the real issues.
Is it this way in other cultures? I weep for mine, but I suspect that we are not really all that different from many other places in the world.
Give me a break, sarah. Vision is not just about the future…it IS about now! Give him bread NOW. THAT is vision. We call our church a “vision-driven church” and the church has been involved in the community from day one–soup kitchen, clothing center, etc. Vision doesn’t just mean future.
You’re right Fred — Vision doesn’t just mean future. I know that & I agree with that. But that’s not how “vision” is defined in a great many churches these days. What Sarah is saying is what I’ve said before in conversations with my friends — the church gets so wrapped up in their vision for the future & their vision for eternity that they aren’t able to see in the here & now. If your church has a vision for right now, this instant, this immediate need, then I’m excited to hear about that, because you stand in the minority.
And concerning vision all the time, I know that no one here is advocating that, but again, there are unhealthy church cultures that socialize their members to believe that, unless they HAVE the vision for the future (i.e. the one that matches their pastor’s vision EXACTLY), they’re not the Christian they’re supposed to be and not good enough to serve in the Kingdom.
I know that not all churches are like this, but I’ve been in enough churches & sold enough books in my 6 (yes, 6) years of Christian retailing to know that this definition of “vision” is the majority one in LP/E/F churches in America.
thanx ttm… as you know, we brits, although different (we’re a little island… that makes us a bit paranoid, grumpy and self important) we still seem to take from american culture… our corporations and big businesses are proparbly very similar to yours, vision driven. the best example is in the ‘where there’s blame there’s a claim’ culture… eg. fall downstairs, take someone to court, get award a million quid and live the dream!… all for no effort. i hate the way our culture is going in that respect… it makes people scared to help others or do anything really… a great example of vision trampling on the here and now and the selfish drive that vision can inspire.
our marriages are in a similar state to yours, the statistics i believe are the same in the church as they are in the rest of the culture… could be said, that the marriage didn’t live up to the vision!
in other ways though, it’s a great little country. we cancelled the 3rd world debt… and i know that had nothing to do with vision… our chancellor, who is a methodist, looked at the figures and they didn’t add up and he couldn’t square it with his beliefs, he thought it was unfair and so for him it was a ‘no-brainer’.
so we’re a right old mixed bag here…