I went to another Vineyard leaders meeting this last weekend. I love the people. That’s the only reason I go, to be honest. I get so tired of the ceaseless talk about vision, vision forming, vision casting, vision keeping, blah blah blah. I am against vision. Call me an idiot! I don’t care. I told everyone in my small group, after all the talk about vision, that I personally resist vision with as much passion as those who believe in it. I get the usual quote: “Without a vision, the people perish.” I don’t believe it. Today, people perish with vision. Besides, the original language of that passage (Proverbs 29: 18) doesn’t mean “vision” as in a corporate long-term goal. It means “revelation”. In other words, without hearing from God, the people perish. It is truth we need. Not another vision, PLEASE!
I’ve created and tried to sustain vision in the past, as well as press its importance on the church. And I’ve seen those visions crush people and myself, especially when the vision is destroyed and proven empty. Friends say, “Well, then get a better vision!” No! I learned my lesson right away: vision kills. I refuse to try to create vision or vision cast or get the community to shape one and pursue it. Why? Because it kills what is. It murders life.
When asked what our vision is as a church, I said we don’t have one and will not have one. We simply get together to worship, fellowship, gather around the bible, help those who need it. That’s it. “Well then that’s your vision!” Don’t try to squeeze me into your box just so you will be comfortable with me! I don’t have a vision. Our community doesn’t have a vision. We don’t have a mission statement. As a father of a family, I don’t have any vision other than that we love one another. I don’t set any long term goals as a father of my children or as a husband of my wife. Simply love. To set goals for my family is demonic.
I know this sounds brutal to some, but brutality against bondage to anything, even vision, is necessary today. Vision is used to escape the present and to destroy what is. I won’t have it. I’ve tasted and seen that it is bad. My goal is to have no goal. My vision is visionless. I be. We be. That’s it.
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Fred,
What was God’s “corporate strategy” for Abraham? He just had to put one foot in front of the other and follow where God was leading. He really didn’t have a clue HOW he was going to get from point A to point B!
What was God’s “corporate strategy” for Moses? He was worried…he didn’t have the bullet points to present to Pharoah. But God told him to just show up and he, God, would take care of the details.
In every example of Biblical men and women who made a difference…the “vision” was staying in touch with God.
Hmmm…what does that say about all the church vision statements we CREATE today?
Dave….you know how to press the buttons. Who would have thought this topic would stir so much disscussion. Heidi, to say “knee jerk reaction” is like calling the kettle black. Dave went to a conference, came back and posted a bolg. I am big enough to take responsibility for my words.
Dave, you paint yourself as the guru of “rightness” as far as the church goes. Its one thing to have an opinion, it is another to say those who have an established vision and mission for the church are somehow falling into the demonic. Give me a break!
You know, there are churches that have vision statements and all they are … are words on paper. Don’t discount the church that is seeing and experiencing fruit – even though they may have a vision statement or mission statement. It almost comes across that you interpret the fruit as bad and deceptive.
We need to make sure our views, opinions, philosophy of ministry or the church in general is not born out of a jaded experience. Many times we … and I mean “we” … create a theology out of life experiences.
John, I’m sorry, but writing a post in your blog about yet another example of why you feel a certain way about a certain topic is NOT a knee-jerk reaction!
Here I am, Heidi, I am not jaded, love the church, and yet I detest vision casting. Am I an anomaly? Nah. I just don’t see that our vision should be anything more than Jesus. And following Jesus is anything but passive. I don’t need a vision to implement that. If I do, I’ve missed the point.
fred – my guess is that david isn’t afraid of strong reactions…thus his strongly worded post
I’m done here. talking this off my comment tracker.
ttm–what was Moses’ vision? To take the people of Israel–all of them–the corporate body–out of Egypt. That’s all. That was the vision.
The rest of it was following God’s direction in order to make it happen.
No bullets. No sub-points.
Oh man I gotta turn this thing off, I shouldn’t be on here!!!
Fred, I’m afraid you’re taking Moses’ story and watering it down with the v-word. If I remember correctly Moses did what he did out of fear and obedience of the Lord. Moses wasn’t petitioning God for some vision of what he should do with his ministry.
John said We need to make sure our views, opinions, philosophy of ministry or the church in general is not born out of a jaded experience. Many times we … and I mean “we†… create a theology out of life experiences.
Yes, that is what every one of us does, you, me, everyone. We all approach tomorrow with yesterday on our minds. It doesn’t matter if it’s church, job, or family. Past experience is unavoidable except for those…blessed…?…with amnesia. In my younger days I would to carry a grudge for years, not a vengeful grudge, like bible-god. No action was ever taken, but I would contemplate what I should have said or done in that instant I was wronged.
I submit to you that everyone eventually “creates their theology out of life’s experiences”. It’s human nature.
Wow, you have vision . . . vision for no vision. I’m sure one of the 107 comments before me used the same pun.
Life is the key and you’re right, vision can kill life. I can’t say I’ve ever had a vision statement that didn’t feel forced and lifeless.
Heidi, once again–vision doesn’t come from man. It comes from God. I don’t know how many times I’ve said it.
Moses didn’t have to ask for it, petition for it. God gave it to him. Some people ask. Some don’t. That’s the way I see it.
Okay, Fred. I went back and re-read (skimmed) the book of Exodus, and I see your point. God did give Moses specific direction all along the journey to the Promised Land. And those Israelites who did not get on board with God’s vision lost a chance at true freedom and lost their precious firstborns.
So, while I still don’t like the idea of handing church leaders a blank “vision” check, I do concede that God does sometimes ask individuals to implement a specific vision for the good of the corporate body. Thanks for contributing to the vision dialogue.
How would you suggest that people–especially those not in pastoral or church leadership positions–determine whether a “church vision” comes from God’s desires or from human desires? And, if a church member thinks that an expressed vision is not being directed by God, what should that member do with that suspicion? (In my former church that question was easy to answer–any suspicion of pastoral expressions was met with a finger pointed to the exit door.) But I digress, what would you do in that situation?
@ttm:
I was once in a church in which I did not agree with the position put forward by the leadership (in fact it was largely the pastor, the other elders later apologised for not standing up against him).
First, I just lived my own vision, er, sorry, lived my faith as I believed was right, trying to focus on the areas where I could do my own thing without crossing swords (although I often failed in avoiding conflict). It was a painful period, and I had to work through some of my own personality issues. Looking back, I wouldn’t miss it for the world.
There came a time when I believed it was right to leave the church, so I moved to a different church, and have not regretted it since.
Even in a church that I feel “at home” in, there will always be points that are not quite “up my street”. I try to live out my own calling, and to let other people live out their calling, too.
I would not be happy about starting an “opposition party” within the church. If the church gives me space to live out my own calling, that’s OK. And as far as possible, I try to be active in my support for the leadership, but without going beyond what my heart is happy with.
I am one of those who sees vision as a positive, personal and supportive concept. However, if someone starts manipulating and dragging me where I don’t want to go, my shackles rise like the best of you.
Thank you for your response, Victor. I think I agree with your approach. Of course, the first order of business when we suspect something is rotten in Denmark should be to refocus on our own attitudes and personal integrity.
I got to the point in my last church that I was not able to shut up about what I saw as very ungodly behavior on the part of the church staff. When I realized that I was comprising my own integrity by badmouthing the leadership and making others feel bad about being connected with a church they were formerly thrilled with, I knew it was time to leave.
I haven’t found a church home yet. Honestly, I’m not really looking. My head is still reeling from the jabs of manipulation and my mind still isn’t clear on what a healthy church looks like. In the meantime, I’m enjoying getting to know God without all the vision statements and strategy taking away from the personal conversation.
ttm,
I was just going to say “I don’t know,” but Victor did a swell job of answering.
Sigh. Why is it every time I try to be slightly sarcastic or expressing of agreement with David in a comment I end up making so many people mad at me? Or people assume I’m “jaded.” I was just trying to participate. The intensity and ferocity here does remind me of seminary debates. I should know, I’ve been in them [former seminarian myself]. I suppose that it [the mention of this being akin to seminarian conversation] DID sound condescending, I am sorry Fred. I meant to help ‘lighten’ the mood, and apparently didn’t succeed. Why should I be lambasted just for commenting that I agree with what the author said? Why should I be lumped in under the “jaded” tag? Maybe I have very good personal experience reasons for concurring on certain issues. Maybe I have thoughtful AND biblical theologically sound reasons as well…
So some people like visionary leadership and some of us don’t. No biggee.
Jo. Don’t sigh. You are not to blame. Your point of view is well received. You are not jaded, I don’t think. And who cares if you were? Like Paul became jaded with a hypocrisy that was entrapping churches, it is okay. Jade away!
Jo Hanson, no biggee.
Here here! Only read this now and -agree again!! Great post. Just this very moment in my home church it’s all talk about THE VISION THE VISION THE VISION…Like we should all work for the vision/the theology. While I feel it is sucking out life of many. It’s not bad in itself, but if vision goes before people/their well-being..Is that of God? I doubt it. I think there is deep truth in concentrating on loving and letting God do the rest. And exactly what you say about your children – yes! God Bless.
Ah, Mimosa…we should all work for “the theology.” That’s a whole new issue!
I love that this thought and post has caused so much conversation. I am struck by the amount of sarcasim that has come out of disagreement. It shows the importance of these questions. The sardonic tones show how entrenched these views are in Christendom and how scary it is for them to be questioned. Sardonic wit is not an answer to the misues of the words ‘vision” and ‘mission’ that have been used to oppress and misuse the Gospel.
Maybe your vision could be a ‘notvision’: My notvision is to be mindful of the fact that God made us in his image, and I am yet to understand his image, therefore I accept that we are all different (yet inherently the same). Therefore, my notvision is to respect that some people work and respond well within the construct of a VISION, and they are loving the poor and caring for the sick and all the things Jesus wants us to do. My notvision is also to respect the fact that some people work and respond well within the construct of a NOTVISION, and hate visions, and they are loving the poor and caring for the sick and all the things Jesus wants us to do.
I got halfway through John and Heidi’s banter and I had to give up reading all the comments. over 100! whew.
I agree with you, but I do think that saying having vision is demonic is pretty extreme.
I agree “demonic” is a strong word. And I use it because it best describes what happens to people when they are conscripted to another person’s idea of what ought must and should happen, no matter how noble.
And how do you mean that? That people become demons? That people become demon-possessed? Demon-influenced instead of God-influenced? Yes, it’s a very strong statement.
I think the scripture that is being referenced is I Timothy 4:12 which talks about “deceiving spirits and things taught by demons…”
What this comes down to is an issue of semantics. Today, “vision” is a catch phrase that means trying to attain a goal that is man-made, not as it was intended to be (ie. How clearly do you see God?”
Pardon the following metaphor.
We’ve set up stain glass windows that we see God through. Our “vision” is maintained in the temporal, rather than the eternal. This should not be so.
Yes, William Lehman…when I have referred to vision I mean that which is specifically God-given, not dreamed up or concocted. And I don’t believe that people need to be coerced or manipulated into following a God-given vision. Maybe that’s the test?
Fred:
Who tests the vision to determine whether it is God-given or manmade?
If it is God-given, will everyone automatically be on the same page?
If a proposed vision is found to be NOT God-given, what happens?
Most importantly, does God give everyone the same vision?
If so, why the disagreement here?
If not, does it really matter that we all define and apply “vision” the same way?
Every individual must test the vision that he is following–whether God originates it with himself/herself.
If it is God-given, not everyone will automatically be on the same page. The reprobates won’t. Just kidding. I have two different church experiences to relate to: One of an older, more traditional church. There is probably a problem with coming in and “changing the vision.” If God began the church with a vision, it may need to be updated, but why would it change? Strategy might. Form might. But I don’t see a wholesale “revisioning” lining up with what I understand. In contrast, I am now in a church that began with a clear vision. So in that case, people will decide very quickly whether or not they are on the same page, or on the same page enough. If they are, they stay and commit. If not, then they don’t stay long anyway.
Does God give everyone the same vision? I hope not. The more general you think of vision, the closer you come to “everyone has the same vision.” But then God has different purpose for every individual city, congregation, etc. That’s one reason why there are different churches in the same town. It’s not wrong and it’s not always negative–the result of conflict, etc. There’s room for many flavors.
Ultimately I have no problem with defining and applying vision differently. I only have a problem with one definition or point of view being applied to all–just as much as I might have a problem with people saying, “Ohhh, I had ice cream once and it made me sick. Actually twice. Ice cream is bad and should be outlawed. Nobody should eat ice cream.”
(…and, just to aggravate my point and start the argument all over again (
), I’ll say, “that wasn’t ice cream you were eating; it was sour cream.” And the response is, “No, I know what ice cream is; this is ice cream.”)
Thanks, Fred. I have a better understanding of where you’re coming from…and a sudden urge to open up that carton of Chocolate Fudge Chunk that’s waiting seductively on the top shelf of the freezer.
Do it!
“Who is among you that feareth the LORD, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the LORD, and stay upon his God. Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow” (Isaiah 50:10-11 KJV).
This passage describes in part the two-sided coin of which you speak. Trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon your God, to receive the revelatory vision. Those who attempt to spark their own fire, their own vision, lie down in sorrow.
Excellent article and one that the ‘modern’ church needs to take hold of. People are dying with a vision – who’s to say that one man and the board can create a vision for an entire church and for everyone to fit into that vision.
For those interested I did a book review on ‘Renegotiating the Church Contract’ by James Thwaites. Deals with this very topic.
Thanks for the post.
My Vision/Purpose
i must decrease
He must increase