My Vision is to Have No Vision
I went to another Vineyard leaders meeting this last weekend. I love the people. That’s the only reason I go, to be honest. I get so tired of the ceaseless talk about vision, vision forming, vision casting, vision keeping, blah blah blah. I am against vision. Call me an idiot! I don’t care. I told everyone in my small group, after all the talk about vision, that I personally resist vision with as much passion as those who believe in it. I get the usual quote: “Without a vision, the people perish.” I don’t believe it. Today, people perish with vision. Besides, the original language of that passage (Proverbs 29: 18) doesn’t mean “vision” as in a corporate long-term goal. It means “revelation”. In other words, without hearing from God, the people perish. It is truth we need. Not another vision, PLEASE!
I’ve created and tried to sustain vision in the past, as well as press its importance on the church. And I’ve seen those visions crush people and myself, especially when the vision is destroyed and proven empty. Friends say, “Well, then get a better vision!” No! I learned my lesson right away: vision kills. I refuse to try to create vision or vision cast or get the community to shape one and pursue it. Why? Because it kills what is. It murders life.
When asked what our vision is as a church, I said we don’t have one and will not have one. We simply get together to worship, fellowship, gather around the bible, help those who need it. That’s it. “Well then that’s your vision!” Don’t try to squeeze me into your box just so you will be comfortable with me! I don’t have a vision. Our community doesn’t have a vision. We don’t have a mission statement. As a father of a family, I don’t have any vision other than that we love one another. I don’t set any long term goals as a father of my children or as a husband of my wife. Simply love. To set goals for my family is demonic.
I know this sounds brutal to some, but brutality against bondage to anything, even vision, is necessary today. Vision is used to escape the present and to destroy what is. I won’t have it. I’ve tasted and seen that it is bad. My goal is to have no goal. My vision is visionless. I be. We be. That’s it.
The fine art photograph is the creation of my friend Mark Hemmings, and is taken from is Hungary photo collection.
If you liked this post, or would like to use it, please buy me a beer!Tags: church, community, naked, pastor, photography, vision
really beautifully expressed mr.n.p.sir… i think maybe i hear angels singing!
hmmm. I can’t agree more that ‘vision’ and vision talk can be exactly what you’ve described and the proverbs passage is just exactly what you say it is.
for me though, vision is like my gardening. sometime I get volunteer flowers and that’s pretty cool and they just grow. sometimes I have to feed and water. sometimes I have to weed but, like my friend Alan says, one man’s weed is another man’s treasure, so I keep what someone else might kill.
All in all I know what I’d like in my garden but I don’t really have the power to make my garden grow – though I certainly have the power to kill it for a time – for a time because the ground will out live me. The plants do what they will do and I contribute, sometimes totally screwing up and pruning something back that I shouldn’t have or failing to prune and keeping the plant form it’s potential (another word I think we both hate).
Anyway, I just think that vision doesn’t have to harm, it can bring life. I definitely want the surgeon to have a vision before he makes the first cut! But often we use ‘vision’ and mean MY VISION rather than our collective vision. I think that’s one of things that I appreciated about the weekend as it didn’t feel like someone else’s vision was being imposed, just shared open-handed.
but then my spiritual gift is naivete.
and I have a vision of you and Lisa finally splitting a bottle of red with me and Donna some time this summer…
thanks jon. i hear angels too. i am crazy!
brian: hm back. bottle of wine for sure. we MUST! “Vision” as in “I’m going to cut this guy open, cut out that tumor then sew him back up again so that he can live!” is one kind of vision. In many ways, without “vision” or a goal or memory, we couldn’t even get to work in the morning. Then again, if the surgeon does his job, he does it without vision. Yes?
Much applause from way up in the last row of the atheist section.
When I was going to church, vision was a prime producer of guilt in me. I never could keep up. I despised visitation night. The thought of knocking on the doors of strangers and talking to them about Jesus sent me into a panic. Of course, I had no idea that I was just very introverted. I assumed my avoidance of the task was the work of Satan and I was not strong enough (spiritual enough?) to overcome.
Vision after vision came and went. Revival service after revival service, attempting to produce a race of Super-Christians, but it always ended the same…within a week we were all back to our normal selves, feeling like we were letting God and our pastor down. We couldn’t even enjoy simple fellowship because us men would get together and talk about our spiritual “drought”, wondering what we needed to do next to help our church “keep the vision”.
Avoiding my typical atheist rant, let me just say I agree with your thoughts David. In the words of my wise father, “Just relaaaax”.
Brilliant! Now I wish I had gone, forgot you might have been there. It was the vision/churchy stuff that kept us away.
Well if you’re an idiot, than I’m an idiot too because I don’t buy all that vision stuff either. A few months ago I decided to look up that passage for myself and I came away thinking it’s been twisted to match the lastest vision “trend”. Whenever the topic is mentioned, I cringe inside.
I love what you’re saying, and I sooo agree. My vision is Jesus and what he embodies and I don’t need to add anything to that. It’s enough!!!!
How very sad that others need to still stick a vision statement on us even if it’s “community”. That’s not a vision, it’s life.
Ick ick ick to the vision bandwagon.
bring it on everyone!
Well, I think I use ‘personal agenda’ the way you’re using ‘vision’.
As for the surgeon, if he’s going in for my appendix I just want him to get it and get out, not get sidetracked by my liver or the fact that I could get by without both of my kidneys and take one just for fun. That’s what I think of as vision.
But I know, and have experienced, the other kind of vision you are talking about.
“………..worship, fellowship, gather around the Bible and help those who need it”. Sounds just right, something I can be a part of without having to manufacture a facsimile.
Well David, you’ve caused me to cruise around the internet looking for how the Vineyard views vision casting and the like. What I’m finding at Vineyard Canada is disturbing:
What it will be like when they get there??? Wow, there’s a recipe for disappointment and disillusionment. God is anything but predictable. What happens when things don’t turn out the way you planned? How dare we be so presumptious.
When the frig did corporate business strategies have their place in the church????
Groan………Randy, I like your dad’s wisdom, “just relaaax”.
http://www.vineyard.ca/engine.cfm?i=47&e=10240&cid=100000469
awesome homework heidi! don’t sign me up!
amen to that, nakedpastorman. add “innovative” and “relevant” to the list of words that make me go ack!!
“Vision kills”?! o: What the heck? Are you serious? How did you ever buy a car…or a house…or have kids…?
i bought a car because someone drove it in my driveway and said, “wanna buy a car?”
i have a house because my now neighbor said, “the house next to me is for sale. wanna buy it?”
i have kids because i had sex at least 3 times
My experience is opposite. I looked for a house. I looked at many. The ones that fit my budget didn’t fit my “vision.” The ones that fit my “vision” didn’t fit my budget. Until I got this one. The process almost killed me. But the vision didn’t.
Can you properly RAISE kids without vision? Or should parents take the path of least resistance?
“To set goals for my family is demonic.” Have any of your kids finished high school? How did that happen? Through “bondage to a vision”? How cruel.
hallelujah amen and praise the Lord! preach on David
Fred – - I think perhaps you’re not thinking of vision in the same terms David is.
Well methinks a bunch of youse guys is Canadian, so since we see the “bondage” word here a couple times, I will toss in a comment from one of the founding fathers (James Madison) of my good ole country and social experiment the US of A:
“Religious bondage shackles the mind and makes it unfit for every noble enterprise.”
Amen and amen and amen and amen and amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Vision is bondage.
Maybe I’m not thinking about “vision” the same way that David is. Maybe that’s the problem with blanket statements and assumptions. Never make assumptions. It just makes and ass out of you and sumption.
However, although it can be abused, vision is necessary for church, life, family, everything. Why bother going to seminary without the “vision” for the possible results?
Even Jesus had “vision”:
“Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who FOR THE JOY SET BEFORE HIM endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.” Hebrews 12:2
Without that future joy, the cross is just masochism.
Vision is not bondage, it is freedom. Freedom to live according to God’s purpose and to say “no” to “everybody else’s” plan for your life.
Let me add something else:
“Besides, the original language of that passage (Proverbs 29: 18) doesn’t mean “vision†as in a corporate long-term goal. It means “revelationâ€. In other words, without hearing from God, the people perish.”
You’re right about that, but the word “perish” is a bad translation as well. The NIV says the people “cast off restraint.” The implication is clear. Without vision, people will do whatever comes to their heads–the good, the bad, and the ugly. It always makes me think of the children of Israel going wild in front of the golden calf while Moses is approaching with the law–the revelation.
It’s like I said about freedom. Without “vision,” we’ll just be tossed to and fro according to the whims, suggestions, and “good ideas” of everybody else. No restraint.
IDIOT… I will say it again … IDIOT!
Even though I said that …. I think that is what you want to hear. When I read your
blog for the last couple of months it comes across your all over the map with thoughts, philiosophy, and even theology.
I won’t deny that your thoughts are affirmed in others, which is not a benchmark of truth.
Some may say, that my interpretation of vision is not the same as yours. Well, i think you make a point in some of your blog, but are ignorant by writing that vision is demontic.
If you hold to all that you say over the last while may I suggest a few things:
1. Don’t take a salary from the church. If you do, don’t complain about your finances
2. Don’t lead. Remove Pastor from your title and see if people follow you without the title.
3. It is only fair to start a new church – plant – with your philisophy and theology. It is unfair to take a church and then switch on them, while you find yourself.
4. Don’t nail Pastors or leaders who have started something from scratch and actually have built something with vision!
Its one thing to knock it and blog it. Its another thing to start something having nothing in front of you than a vision and a dream God has given (not the devil by the way!!!!)
There are some people who do! Than there are others who blog!
In regards to family – I would hope to God I would establish a future for my family. In regards to finances, education, and housing and most important spirituality.
Dave, this is one of your most pompous blogs!
John, this is one of your most pompous comments. I think you’re blowing this wayyyy out of proportion.
Thanks Heidi for your concern
Okey dokey!
Heidi…re-read the blog~! Seriously. My guess is that you go to Daves church and are in his small group.
John, I read it probably 5 times already. I’m not sure what you are implying in your above statement. Firstly, let’s clarify that it’s not Dave’s small group, it’s led by someone else. Just had to clear that up.
You’d be surprised to know that there are times that I disagree with David and have even said so right here. I’m sure there are times he disagrees with me. To relate in any other way would be unhealthy, if not extremely boring. There are also many times that I agree with him wholeheartedly and this is one of those times. I’m also a big girl and found my detest for vision casting etc. long before he ever mentioned it (which to my knowledge, he has only mentioned it here).
This is one of my pet peeves about blogging (though I’ve grown to mostly love it!). Conversing with words alone leaves room for misinterpretation, miscommunication, and misunderstandings. Maybe with this medium (computer screen), we need to ask for clarification, just to be sure we’re “hearing” a person correctly.
Wow! This one stirred up some bitterness, eh Dave? I love coming here, because it’s like everything I’m thinking written out. It helps me tackle ideas and find solutions for myself. I understand what you’re saying about the “vision” pitches and so-on. I feel that vision in that sense is corrupt, and perhaps part of being followers of Christ is to forget about our vision, and see the world through His eyes. …. and even though I just wrote that, I have no idea what it means yet.
Bloggin sure does Heidi…so lets be big enough to have the blogger interpret what he meant.
We need clarification mostly on words on vision such as “demonic”, “kills life”, “murders”…etc
I think I understand what the blogger is saying…..I’ve been to conferences….read books on vision and have a gut feeling the blogger has taken liberties of blasting others of talking on vision. He speaks against that which he endorses. Having the freedom of mind…having the freedom to not fit into a box….yet he accuses others of that which he does himself!
Not much to clarrify there!
Where are you Fred?
Listen John, I love you, but you’re not listening. I’m not being pompous. I have just learned that for centuries the church has inflicted its members with vision. And where has it got us? Only into a place where we feel we need a better vision. Bull! When will we ever learn that it is the vision that is killing us? There are more “prodigals” out there than “attenders”. Why? I would suggest that the church organization is the problem.
Let me put it this way: There’s a family, doing fine. They live in the same house. They eat meals together. They love one another. Sure, there’s problems, but nothing out of the ordinary for an ordinary family. Everything’s fine. Then, some CEO comes along and says, “Hey! You guys need a vision!” The father and mother say, “What the HELL you talkin’ about??” That’s what I mean!
I imagine David and those in his church have plans — “let’s get our church to go feed the homeless, who wants to coordinate the sign up” … or whatever. Maybe not but that would be my guess. I don’t see that as the same thing as the vision that David is referring to. And for the record, I don’t go to David’s church, I’m not even in the same country nor am I a member of his denomination.
David is also using a bit of hyberpole as I read it, a bit of rhetoric if you will – to provoke thought and response. The responses that people give are very telling, visceral responses usually point to fear of some sort. The type of feelings that it evokes in the reader is telling. It might be good to spend some time reflecting on the feelings that the post evoked and where those feelings are coming from. And I’m not being snarky or sarcastic.
sorry david, crossed your post there.
Dave….bull!
I say “right on” oin for 2 reasons:
1. many many many churches feel the need to define a vision for people to follow that in the end detracts from what Jesus said was important- specifically in Matt 25:35(feed, clothe, love, visit etc). It also amazes me how many of these visions end up building-centric.
2. Vision Casting has such control and manipulation tendencies when in the mouths of humans i.e. “you are spiritual if you comply”
it was for freedom that Christ has set you free – heard that somewhere.
John, you seem to be putting a whole lot of meaning behind David’s words that I personally don’t believe are there. They are your own. Yes, it seems that we do indeed disagree on the topic, but I mean when you started off your very first comment with IDIOT, well I’m afraid that says a lot.
Couldn’t you consider that there just might be a dark side of having a vision?
Makeesha, you’re so right. There’s a difference between “let’s plan to do this next month” and “this is the direction we believe the church should go in”. I don’t know why but the latter makes me very uneasy because who are we to decide where God is going to take us!
Listen…good “spiritual ace” Mak~ By the way, let controvesy happen. If Dave has the nerve to say “demonic”, along with other things…why is it you have a problem with me being opinionated? Can I not disagee with as much passion as he presents his case??? If not, hmmm makes me wonder.
My point is simply this! we have done well as a church with vision and mission. We have seen many come to faith. Seen the poor fed and clothed. This has come through strategic planning and vision. Just because one has a bad experienceor is jaded…dont think it is the same in the body of Christ around the world!
Heidi….let me quote Dave…
I get so tired of the ceaseless talk about vision, vision forming, vision casting, vision keeping, blah blah blah. I am against vision. Call me an idiot!
He asked for me to call him it….i did! your point> not valid~!
Wow David, family dinners with you and John must be a hoot.
I am going to disagree here, sort of. A vision for the church body, the community dynamic, and the individual parishioner’s spiritual education is, I think, important. When the church gets too busy chasing that vision and failing to adapt to the changes in their lives for the sake of the “vision”, then it becomes that thing that is,[“demonicâ€, “kills lifeâ€, “murdersâ€â€¦etc]. A vision can be a good navigation aid, but not something to cling to.
There is a blind furniture maker in Vermont who makes the most stunning wood pieces you’ve ever seem. His motto,”I may have lost my sight, but I haven’t lost my vision.”
Vision is not the poison, but the pride that inhibits willingness to abandon a failed or useless vision is what corrupts and separates. Churches can get so busy working for
God they forget to stop and talk to Him once-in-a-while. That happened to the Pharisees and Jesus called them the blind leading the blind….. they will both fall into a ditch. (that’s kind of a funny statement when you think about how it might sounded when He actually said it. I bet the people laughed)
John, I think you and David need to hug.
I don’t know John, you can’t tell me you didn’t enjoy being justified in calling him an idiot.
Everything is fluid…just because vision is given…doesnt mean it is wrong!
i can see John has missed the point and has bought in the Vision that makes Christendom (not Christianity) irrelevant to western culture. It is no longer religion or belief when one uses vision and mission to blindly support the spoils of how Christendom has misused our majority-culture position. It is scary to give up those things. It is evident with the list of “suggestions” that seem to suggest one can only be a maryter to question how things are done.
Here here Naked Pastor and speak the truth.
I might have jumped into the fray a little too late, but, let me put in my two cents. My head started spinning around the 25th reply so I’m not sure if I’m simply repeating what has already been said
A leader of a church/ministry should invest significant time seeking the face of God for direction. Right now I am in the midst of allowing the Holy Spirit to birth the Father’s vision in my heart for the ministry He has called me to pioneer. It is my responsibility to cultivate a heart after His own heart. If I have His heart then I am confident in Him that I will have His vision. However, if I fail to become a man after God’s own heart, then how can I expect Him to entrust me with His vision? Unfortunately a common theme among the leadership of the Church [and all believers, I suppose] is the issue of time spent seeking God’s face. Just pure, unadulterated communion with the Lord…just writing those words cause my heart to hunger for Him!
Do you have “revelation†from the Holy Spirit regarding what God is saying to you to pursue in this hour? And, more importantly, do you burn with the things that are on God’s heart?
That’s my two cents worth!
Loving Jesus,
Brian Francis Hume
Good stuff Brian!
(…ahh the joys of having a laptop at your beside!)
I second Heidi’s comment. Well said!
Wow y’all – 47 comments – I can hardly keep up! And this isn’t even a contest.
AMEN!
I am so sick and tired of the talk of vision!
Peace!
Jimmy
I know I have been strong in my opinion and accused of not listening. But I want to show my first comment made that seems to be more celebrated now with others joining in:
Its one thing to knock it and blog it. Its another thing to start something having nothing in front of you than a vision and a dream God has given (not the devil by the way!!!!)
My point was this: God can give vision for a church. Don’t knock a Pastor who is leading the church in that direction.
Heidi…he is my brother…he has called me worse…plus im the youngest on 5. He is the oldest. I was beat up by my siblings and had no defence. I find it safe and theaputic to voice my opinions here without being beat up physically. Please understand this is my avenue of childhood frustrations!
Hey Dan….amazing summary of my thoughts!
Like I said John, You guys need to hug!!!
LOL…one day!
Maybe the problem is with this statement:
“I’ve created and tried to sustain vision in the past…”
If the vision was your own creation, then that’s probably where the problem is.
You mean there is no painting to win? Shoot!
When churches and/or pastors start to use language, such as vision, that I call a part of churchianity, it reminds me of double think from George Orwells book 1984.
“The power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one’s mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them. … To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just so long as it is needed, to deny the existence of objective reality and all the while to take account of the reality which one denies—all this is indispensably necessary. Even in using the word doublethink it is necessary to exercise doublethink. For by using the word one admits that one is tampering with reality; by a fresh act of doublethink one erases this knowledge; and so on indefinitely, with the lie always one leap ahead of the truth.”
This happens when the church’s vision isn’t exactly working out. Its not really working out but we say it is and keeping going forward like it will simply work itself out because we made a vision.
Or, more disturbing still, the idea of promoting this vague notion of a vision reminds me of Newspeak.
“The basic idea behind Newspeak was to remove all shades of meaning from language, leaving simple dichotomies (pleasure and pain, happiness and sadness, good thoughts and thoughtcrimes) which reinforce the total dominance of the State.”
If I support the vision I’m “good” and if I don’t agree with the vision I’m “bad.” Or even worse still, if I want to modify the vision.
I start every day with a meditation on letting go of outcomes. I don’t go forward until I have mentally and emotionally let go of particular outcomes.
The reason I do this is that I have discovered that I cannot predict the future. If I invest in a particular vision and I come across new information, then I can change my direction without having to form a new vision.
If I want to sail someplace I can’t predict the current or the wind. I have to make course corrections all the time. Some might say the destination is the vision. But what if I find out that distination isn’t what I thought it was. (No we have stay with our vision.)
Every day is pretty interesting for me because its unpredictable. If I’m thinking about one particular vision all the time I’m going to miss out on what is right in front of me.
Anyway, that’s my take on a vision. (whatever a vision is?)
Richard…I appreciate your view, interpretation and spirit on vision. It is imformative. Enjoyed the read. Thanks, John
Fred makes a valid point
Wow, this has stirred up some feeling! I looked at the amount of comments and thought that there would be some great discussion – most of them are by John and Fred though!
When you are talking about vision what do you mean David? Are you referring to church vision or God vision? In terms of church vision statements etc. then I think they hinder people and perhaps even put too much pressure on people to conform to “the vision” etc. Churches have become too much like businesses in the regards of vision statements, mission statements etc.
In terms of God vision for my life, then I believe in that. God has given Jonathan and I a vision for what we think He wants us to do, and we will continue to listen to him as we try and fulfill that vision for our lives.
Bless you! You’re not crazy, and your blog is great!
Lyn
Hi all, Jon, not John here!
David, from what I know of you you are not an idiot. And since John hasn’t invited it I won’t call him an idiot either. I appreciate your honesty John.
David, somehow this remind me of your previous post about “leadership.” and the different things we perceive when we hear that word.
My thoughts:
It’s two and a half hours since I first read this post and I’m still thinking about it. I think the word “vision” is often abused and can often mean “this is where I think the church I lead should go” I think I have been guilty of this at times, whilst still believing that I thought my “vision” was what God was giving me at the time. In this sense “vision” can be quite manipulative indicating that what I have is definitely from God. This obligates people to serve, support THE VISON FROM GOD. This works well until we change our vision because it’s not working. People feel manipulated and cheated – there’s are lots of them out there. (Interesting question here about evaluating the success of a vision – which clearly we do – but can we evaluate a VISION FORM GOD – another time.)
A lot of this “vision” is not vision but strategy. A strategy which we feel we need others to give themselves to if it is going to work. Part of me hears “manipulation, controlling, domination.” Not always true. Not always the heart. But often there.
Jesus had a vision? If he did, he didn’t communicate it well to the disciples, or at least they didn’t get it. Jesus vision (sight) was fixed on His Father. Doing (daily) what He saw His Father doing. In this sense His vision was the Kingdom of God; something not easily defined; something that needs continually seeking out.
Often, Vision is something that obligates people to the CHURCH. I’ve come to think of things the other way around. How can we best support one another in seeking and entering the kingdom (not an easy thing to suss out) on an ongoing basis. How can we best love (serve) one another in doing this. Most visions I’ve come across flow the other way: getting people to make the
machinebody work better.I fear that once I say “This is the vision” and write it down, no matter how good my intention, I actually stop people seeking it for themselves and supporting one another.
I’m fully with David in that I want people to seek the revelation of God in their lives, and not to be dictated to by a church leader who, let’s face it, often has a lot to loose if people don’t by into their vision from God. (In practice the what they often loose it there own sense of self worth as a leader.) Again, is the leader there to serve others, or are others there to serve the leaders, I mean Gods, vision?
At times I experience frustration because I make the judgement that others are not seeking God. I certainly can’t see the fruit at times. But if they are not seeking God, I can’t make them follow God (or me) with a vision or anything else. I can try and inspire them to do so, and I think that is what leadership is. I want to appeal to something I believe God is already whispering inside of them – encourage them to hear that voice and act on it.
That’s how I see it. I know that not many people see it that way. But hey.
I made it quite clear what my definition of vision is: “a corporate long-term goal.” Don’t do it. Vision and mission statements are a product of the fall. Before, we walked with God in the intimacy of fellowship. Satan comes along and offers a vision: “You can be like God”, and a mission statement, “Eat this and you will accomplish it!”
For me vision, simply put, is “what could be” or “what should be”. And I would argue, Dave, that you do have a vision. You have a vision for what church “could be” or “should be”. You critique it when you see something that is wrong with it and you celebrate it when you get it right. I would even argue that you use this blog to cast your vision of the church – a place where people can naked and still be loved, a place where partying is just enough, and a place where you “simply get together to worship, fellowship, gather around the bible, help those who need it”.
Welcome to the box, Dave…
Just to add my 2 sents.(How much money do we have….:-)
The disciples walked with Jesus 3 and a half years. During that time, the disciples usually had no idea what was going on. When Jesus died, they went back fishing. So much for 3 and a half years……:-) They received in that time no vision. I have to agree with nakedpastor. Vision gives assurity. Vision gives you the rules. Vision places stuff into boxes. Vision uses people because of their function. Vision will hurt 50 people to heal one.
The question is: WHAT DID JESUS GIVE HIS DISCIPLES?
Thanks
Robin, EXACTLY!
How about this, Dave?
“Our vision is to live simply and honestly in community together in transparent relationship.”
Too much bondage there? Perhaps you’d like the “freedom” to add some legalism? Or some subterfuge? Some masks? Or a little deception?
Don’t you see that you’re already adhering to a “vision”?
Your problem is with “corporate goals”? What does “corporate” mean? It almost literally means “a body.” Is that what you have something against? Or something else?
Jon Hallewell, I disagree a little with you. If God gives you a vision, that doesn’t mean that you necessarily “have it all right” and that it isn’t subject to change. But if you are a leader, and people are following you, then to what are you leading them? What are you following?
In Dave’s case, people are attracted to him and to what he is doing because they buy into something like: “living simply and honestly in community together in transparent relationship.”
I think this entire disagreement is based mostly on differing personalities. Some people like to keep things the same. I am that way. As president of my local photography club, some members are always trying to figure out ways to increase membership. I kind of like having the same 15-20 people at the monthly meetings. Some people throw around the idea of collecting annual dues…for what…I don’t know. I resist the idea. Things have been fine for the past 7 years without dues.
I think some people just need to be “on the move” all the time, while others kind of like it where they are. Some people need a vision, others do not. Some people want to make millions and are willing to invest 80 hours a week getting there, and others, like me, while I would like to be a millionaire, are not willing to invest the time.
I think “vision” is perhaps different for all of us, and the desire for vision is also different. Some believe vision is necessary for growth, while others believe vision can be a hindrance to growth…or just plain don’t see any need for growth…or will even disagree on what “growth” is.
Wow, I shouldn’t have closed up the laptop so “early” last night.
John, I put two and two together from Chris’s comment last night, figuring that I might be witnessing sibling rivalry.
I still cring at terms like “cast your vision” (reminds me somewhat of ‘The Secret’). I still think that the minute you embrace a vision of what something could be, you’d better be prepared to be disappointed. I still think it’s supremely presumptious. Does God have a history of doing things the way we think He’s going to?
Abmo, I like what you’re saying. I like what others are saying too, but our “vision” needs to be Jesus and nothing more. ‘Keep it simple stupid’ perhaps?
I think we’re still caught up in word meaning here but I’ll add a couple thoughts and then shut up.
Genesis 1, before the fall, 1:28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”
Sounds like what I mean by ‘vision’.
John 1334″A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” 36Simon Peter asked him, “Lord, where are you going?”
Jesus replied, “Where I am going, you cannot follow now, but you will follow later.”
Again, sounds like what I mean by ‘vision’.
To me Vision is calling something that’s not yet as thouh it is.
Vision is an artist buying a blank canvass or a potter putting a lump of clay on the wheel. Vision is putting grape juice in a barrel for a couple years. Vision is making a blueprint, money invested in education, a seed planted in a garden, a hole dug for a foundation.
Vision, like all things created, can be bad and can be used for bad. But it’s really not demonic in and of itself. The imposition of my vision can be evil, even when the vision itself might be good.
I think a lot of comments are about whether David is right or wrong and a verbal attempt to get him to “cry ‘uncle’”. I think, in a way, those attempts only prove what he is saying and we can’t rest until he sees my point of view.
(before I come across all buddha here, I know a lot is just said in fun and in the spirit of dialogue, that’s cool)
I have a vision. I’m pretty sure I’m not demonic (or at least I’m MOSTLY not demonic). My vision is and will be a dream to see everyone I know living out the dream God has dreamed for each of us. Call it a tomato or call it a vision, I don’t care, but it keeps me up at night and gets me up in the morning.
Well, MOST mornings.
Fred, what is this talk of “buying into” David’s so called ‘vision’?? Sorry but I’m not some brainless sheep who goes to David’s church because his “brand” appeals to me.
I am there because of the RELATIONSHIPS, because those people are my FAMILY.
I also don’t buy into the premise that the pastor is the one who leads the people exclusively. Hopefully a pastor has a good team of shoulders to lean on (elders/leaders) and they lead as a family. The father may lead the family, but a healthy family goes forward as a unit.
Funny how with this ‘vision’ trend, people are not comfortable with you not having a vision. By God they’ll stick one on you if you won’t do it yourself.
Often times we use the idea of a corporate/business vision in the church, when our idea of vision should be something different. The difference between a corporate vision and a Christian vision is that one is man made and the other is God given.
When we rely on our own understanding to create a vision, I couldn’t agree with your statements more. But overall I have to strongly disagree. When a vision comes from God (revelation) we should cast it, use it as a compass to guide our decisions, and pursue it with everything.
What about Peter in Acts 10? Where would we be without Peter taking God’s vision and casting it to others? As for mission statements, how about the great commission? If that is not a mission statement, what is?
Are most pastors receiving their visions from God? I don’t know, and don’t think I should be the judge of that. But if their vision is truly from God, then I really doubt it murders life.
Wow…72 comments…that’s too much for me to read this morning! So, if I repeat what someone else has already said…sorry.
I agree that “vision”, in the way that it is used in the church, is dangerous. Jesus already gave us all the vision we need. It’s called the Great Commision. Everything else that churches come up with is usually born out of a desire to make a name for themselves, despite however well-intentioned their motivations might be.
As I get older and deal with the disillusionement that eventually befalls most Christians as they see the failures of themselves and churches, I am reminded that following Jesus usually can be boiled down to very simple principles and practices.
Grace, forgiveness towards those who have harmed us, trust in God, Faith in His nature and love for us, seeking Him, listening to Him. What else is there?
If we practiced those principles, our lives wouldn’t need to be hyped into fullness by artificial “visions.”
BrianM, I see what you’re saying. Perhaps it’s what the word ‘vision’ has come to mean as a current church trend. On the other hand, ‘vision’ means ‘to see’ and I figure only God can see the path before us and if Jesus is the lamp to our feet (not miles down the road), then this keeps me focused on the here and now. How many of us live in the future and miss all that God wants us to do TODAY, the people he wants us to love TODAY, the sacrifices he wants us to make TODAY, the gifts he watns us to receive TODAY.
I do get ya though, but I guess I would term those things as dreams or desires.
Golly, that’s a bondo-mondo of comments! I’ve been skitterish of the modern usage of ‘vision’. I called it the ‘v-word’, which, along with the ‘d-word’ [Destiny---ugghh], are in my top ten icckky preacher words. If I hear it from a live or tv preacher, click click, I’m gone!
~Anna
Brian, thanks for saying what I was trying to. I agree that much of the dialogue and debate surrounds how we define ‘vision’. I love your bit about vision being something that can be used for good or bad, but is not demonic in itself. Personally, I think people are the problem, not vision. People use vision to control, manipulate, and coerce the same way that others use the Bible.
I like Heidi’s term ‘dream’. Maybe the word ‘vision’ has just too much baggage. I wonder if it would put people more at ease if we used dream language when speaking of our communities?
“If you love Jesus, nothing much can go wrong with you.” –C.S. Lewis.
Jesus gives us an idea of how we are to be in the world and to be with one another in the church. That is the only ’sight’ or worldview that I find necessary, and even then, I don’t try to infringe on other people and MAKE them believe it just because I do.
Can’t we all just sing “Kum ba ya, My Lord” and hold hands? Shall we gather at the river?
Some of you above would make great seminarians….perpetually arguing about the necessity of vision and what kind of vision is best for certain geographical areas etc. I sorta miss the theology part of seminary myself. It seems to me that vision caters to the pastor’s ego and makes all of his ‘followers’ regress to being ‘functionaries’ for the ‘mission’ or ‘goal’ or ‘vision’ rather than helping them grow into virtue, and community, and humanity (the good part of our human-ness, you know, the unique individuals that God specifically designed?). Moreover, I have spent well over a decade in nothing but visionary churches, usually with six hundred attenders or more, all who want to get ‘big’ and ‘win one more for Jesus.’ Meanwhile their neighbors are neglected and their attenders don’t know one another well, and everybody is lonely.
Anyway, those of you who think Vision is so necessary would do well at seminary, if you ever have a mind to go. The rest of us will try to just be the church in the old-fashioned organic way.
It’s amazing: I’ve discovered a formula that works for everything in Christianity. As I was pondering this post about vision, perishing without vision, vision casting, buying into a vision…. I realized that my formula works with this too! It’s so simple. Ready?
Jesus.
Yup. What’s my vision? Jesus. Perishing without Jesus. Casting Jesus. Buying into Jesus. It’s that simple. I don’t need to make any plans other than to follow Jesus. He’s taking care of the rest. I think that’s basically what nakedpastor is saying.
It’s amazing.
“Fred, what is this talk of “buying into†David’s so called ‘vision’?? Sorry but I’m not some brainless sheep who goes to David’s church because his “brand†appeals to me.
I am there because of the RELATIONSHIPS, because those people are my FAMILY.
I also don’t buy into the premise that the pastor is the one who leads the people exclusively. Hopefully a pastor has a good team of shoulders to lean on (elders/leaders) and they lead as a family. The father may lead the family, but a healthy family goes forward as a unit.
Funny how with this ‘vision’ trend, people are not comfortable with you not having a vision. By God they’ll stick one on you if you won’t do it yourself. ”
Uh huh. So are you in line with what he does? Are you on the same page? That doesn’t make you a mindless sheep. It does put you in agreement with his “vision.”
Where does “vision” mean coercion, hard sell, manipulation, etc?
“Some of you above would make great seminarians….perpetually arguing about the necessity of vision and what kind of vision is best for certain geographical areas etc. I sorta miss the theology part of seminary myself. It seems to me that vision caters to the pastor’s ego and makes all of his ‘followers’ regress to being ‘functionaries’ for the ‘mission’ or ‘goal’ or ‘vision’ rather than helping them grow into virtue, and community, and humanity (the good part of our human-ness, you know, the unique individuals that God specifically designed?). Moreover, I have spent well over a decade in nothing but visionary churches, usually with six hundred attenders or more, all who want to get ‘big’ and ‘win one more for Jesus.’ Meanwhile their neighbors are neglected and their attenders don’t know one another well, and everybody is lonely.
Anyway, those of you who think Vision is so necessary would do well at seminary, if you ever have a mind to go. The rest of us will try to just be the church in the old-fashioned organic way. ”
Imagine running a seminary without vision…a plan…a direction…a strategy….
Jo – I had to chuckle at how long this conversation has gone on and how personally offended people are about it… all because David said that corporate vision statements have never worked for him. seminary students indeed.
I say, if you think having a vision statement is important then go plant a church upon one
if you’re offended that David doesn’t like personal vision statements for family, then go create one and build your family upon one 
it really shouldn’t be that big of a stresser in my opinion.
I just appreciate David’s chutzpah.
Jo Hanson, what happens when part of a church’s “vision” is to “grow into virtue, and community, and humanity”?
Since when does “vision” simply mean “growth in numbers”?
If that were the case, I would disagree with the concept myself.
But it doesn’t. Is this just another case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater?
Makeesha…how about David saying that vision statements are demonic and bondage? Seminary students indeed…
Hey folks, how about a semantic shift?
Instead of a vision, perhaps we could talk about a “calling” (sorry if I’m stealing someone else’s fire – I’ve skimmed the other 84 comments, but I must have missed some of the points).
I’ve got various things that are on my heart, a sort of “calling”. For my sins, I often think of them as a vision (oops, there’s the V-word again).
It so happens that my whatever-it-is overlaps to a fair extent with the mission statement proposed by the leadership of my local church. The bits that don’t overlap are personal – nothing against the leadership or the mission statement, but my personal life and calling goes beyond my local church involvement.
Does the word “vision” make us relaxed or up-tight?
For me, it leads to relaxation. I know that the V-whatsit for my life stems from God’s plan of action. If he doesn’t give the power, no way will I be able to make it happen. And if I have misunderstood what his plan is, then he will put me right in his time.
Of course the “vision” sometimes leads me into certain actions that help me move along the way. But at heart, it flows from relationship, from who I am in Jesus and from who Jesus is in me. And if navigating the vision gives me a bumpy ride, then that brings me all the closer to Jesus and helps me to focus on him as the be-all-and-end-all.
David, you seem to think of “vision” as management-speak, a concept that comes straight out of an MBA fast-talking-no-content world. That is not what I associate with the word. But then, perhaps that is because I have the “advantage” of not living in North America (grin!).
fred – I guess if you have a vision statement that is working for you, why do you find that so offensive? no one has shown David’s statements to be theologically unsound. So it’s opinion based on his personal experiences. He’s not hurting anyone and I doubt he’s saying that you can’t have a vision statement. If you want to reject his experience that’s up to you. I doubt he’s too worried about it, so what in you makes you respond so viscerally?
“I am against vision.”
“Don’t try to squeeze me into your box just so you will be comfortable with me!”
“…vision kills…it kills what is. It murders life.”
“…brutality against bondage to anything, even vision, is necessary today.”
“Vision is used to escape the present and to destroy what is. I won’t have it. I’ve tasted and seen that it is bad.”
These are strong statements. Very strong. Why not react strongly?
Am I worried about what David does? No. Do I think he’s going to hell in a handbasket? No. But when he spouts this stuff and passes it off as “more spiritual,” well, that’s different.
I guess I read David’s words very differently. There’s something powerful about provocative language – one thing it does is brings the best and worst of others to the surface but the primary purpose is to get people to think. With something so broadly accepted in Christianity as “vision”, one really does need to be very provocative to get people to think about it – - otherwise they just do their usual “pass over” of the issue and assume that a vision statement is what everyone should have because, well, that’s how it’s always been done.
not only that, David has personal experience with this issue and feels strongly about it. There are some issues that I would get just as pissed off at as you fred so I’m not saying I’m faultless or that you shouldn’t strongly respond.
Agree or disagree but David has made people think.
I’m not saying your response SHOULD or SHOULDN’T be anything, I’m simply asking where those strong feelings are coming from? No one here is actually expressing how David’s statement make them feel and why, they just keep spitting his statements back at him and avoiding the issue.
Not at all. I’ve presented a few different points of view to which David has barely responded. Strong feelings? I’m not angry.
And who’s avoiding the issue? I’ve responded to his statements with statements of my own. Isn’t that what responding to a blog post is all about?
Then there are the condescending statements about “going to seminary.” How should I respond to that?
David has had some personal experience. Negative personal experience. That’s fine. I would bet that if he simply responded about his own personal experience without making blanket generalizations, the responses might not have been worded so strongly.
Heidi! Not sibling rivalry at all. It is two Pastors who have different philosophy of leadership and ministry. His points are strong and deserve a response with the same passion he delivers it. He knows my style of leadership and how we cast vision here, so with that in mind, I would like to have the freedom to strongly disagree with him.
“Vision” in Proverbs 29:18 should be translated “revelation.” What is the result of that revelation? What does God reveal?
Fred said:
Sorry Fred, David has no “vision” so I can’t be in agreement with something that doesn’t exist.
Why assume everybody in one church is on the same page? It’s nice to perhaps be in the same chapter, or at least the same book, but I actually like people who disagree with me and don’t think the same way I do. It’s a great way to expand your mind….IF you’re willing.
Well everyone, who’d u thunk it! In a post that was just intended to be a little rant after a regional denominational meeting, it has turned into one of my most popular (unpopular) posts
Listen, I’d be lying if I said that this point of view of mine was just personal. I have to admit it isn’t personal. I truly believe that “vision” and “goal-setting” and “mission statements” are spirit-killing tools that have been aimed at the backs of people for thousands of years, and it’s about time we surrendered to the truth that they don’t work. The world, the human race, the church and other religious institutions are getting deader all the time. Why go back to the drawing board just to draft just another better vision that will further kill us? STOP!!! It is a radical truth we are resisting and escaping from by busying ourselves with dreams and illusions. Stay tuned. I’m going to post part 2 today.
Geez! Hot topic.
When I was being recruited by the Church of Christ a long time ago, they showed me their vision:
One disciple finds two more people to disciple. Those two, in turn, each find two more. Then, those 4 disciples find two each…
Mathematically, we were looking at world conversion in a matter of years. I could see it, as the base of the forming pyramid on his legal pad grew exponentially with each new row of converts.
I felt like I was selling Amway products.
If you’re running your church like a family, then I suppose there’s no need for vision. After all, families exist for their own sakes.
But, organizations typically exist for a purpose. Whatever that purpose is, THAT’s your vision. Typically, churches attempt to effect change in their communities (charity, feeding the poor, winning converts etc). Those kinds of things don’t happen by accident. Planning and strategy are needed to coordinate any group of people.
Of course…if I believed that a wise and mysterious being was directing my steps I wouldn’t worry about whether I was accomplishing my purpose or even try to figure out what my purpose is. I’d probably just try to stay on His wavelength.
John, is it passionate responses, or knee-jerk reactions? I’m seeking a lot of flailing knees flying around here!
Dave…”they don’t work?”
My experience says it does. It worked for Abraham. It worked for Moses. It works today.
If a vision is from God, and it is followed God’s way, it works.
I’ve been in a church that pretended to have vision. I’m in a church that has vision. It works. I’m seeing it all the time.
Heidi, David’s original post seems to me a knee-jerk reaction.
I’ll tell you why I get nervous when I hear the word “vision” in a church context:
-because there is no clearcut way to determine whether a “vision” was revealed by God or devised by man.
-because quarrels about “visions” often rip churches and families apart.
-because a “vision” can very easily become an idol we worship in place of Christ.
-because if we are working toward implementing a “vision” we are prone to forget that salvation does not come through works.
-because “visions” often have results which we interpret to be “successful.” And this patting ourselves on the back can result in arrogance and exclusion.
I’m enjoying the dialogue here (wrestling with many of the ideas shared, but enjoying it, nonetheless.)
Fred, that’s debatable to say the least. A knee-jerk reaction is an immediate response to something. I doubt David just came up with his point of view over this past weekend.
Fred,
What was God’s “corporate strategy” for Abraham? He just had to put one foot in front of the other and follow where God was leading. He really didn’t have a clue HOW he was going to get from point A to point B!
What was God’s “corporate strategy” for Moses? He was worried…he didn’t have the bullet points to present to Pharoah. But God told him to just show up and he, God, would take care of the details.
In every example of Biblical men and women who made a difference…the “vision” was staying in touch with God.
Hmmm…what does that say about all the church vision statements we CREATE today?
Dave….you know how to press the buttons. Who would have thought this topic would stir so much disscussion. Heidi, to say “knee jerk reaction” is like calling the kettle black. Dave went to a conference, came back and posted a bolg. I am big enough to take responsibility for my words.
Dave, you paint yourself as the guru of “rightness” as far as the church goes. Its one thing to have an opinion, it is another to say those who have an established vision and mission for the church are somehow falling into the demonic. Give me a break!
You know, there are churches that have vision statements and all they are … are words on paper. Don’t discount the church that is seeing and experiencing fruit – even though they may have a vision statement or mission statement. It almost comes across that you interpret the fruit as bad and deceptive.
We need to make sure our views, opinions, philosophy of ministry or the church in general is not born out of a jaded experience. Many times we … and I mean “we” … create a theology out of life experiences.
John, I’m sorry, but writing a post in your blog about yet another example of why you feel a certain way about a certain topic is NOT a knee-jerk reaction!
Here I am, Heidi, I am not jaded, love the church, and yet I detest vision casting. Am I an anomaly? Nah. I just don’t see that our vision should be anything more than Jesus. And following Jesus is anything but passive. I don’t need a vision to implement that. If I do, I’ve missed the point.
fred – my guess is that david isn’t afraid of strong reactions…thus his strongly worded post
I’m done here. talking this off my comment tracker.
ttm–what was Moses’ vision? To take the people of Israel–all of them–the corporate body–out of Egypt. That’s all. That was the vision.
The rest of it was following God’s direction in order to make it happen.
No bullets. No sub-points.
Oh man I gotta turn this thing off, I shouldn’t be on here!!!
Fred, I’m afraid you’re taking Moses’ story and watering it down with the v-word. If I remember correctly Moses did what he did out of fear and obedience of the Lord. Moses wasn’t petitioning God for some vision of what he should do with his ministry.
John said We need to make sure our views, opinions, philosophy of ministry or the church in general is not born out of a jaded experience. Many times we … and I mean “we†… create a theology out of life experiences.
Yes, that is what every one of us does, you, me, everyone. We all approach tomorrow with yesterday on our minds. It doesn’t matter if it’s church, job, or family. Past experience is unavoidable except for those…blessed…?…with amnesia. In my younger days I would to carry a grudge for years, not a vengeful grudge, like bible-god. No action was ever taken, but I would contemplate what I should have said or done in that instant I was wronged.
I submit to you that everyone eventually “creates their theology out of life’s experiences”. It’s human nature.
Wow, you have vision . . . vision for no vision. I’m sure one of the 107 comments before me used the same pun.
Life is the key and you’re right, vision can kill life. I can’t say I’ve ever had a vision statement that didn’t feel forced and lifeless.
Heidi, once again–vision doesn’t come from man. It comes from God. I don’t know how many times I’ve said it.
Moses didn’t have to ask for it, petition for it. God gave it to him. Some people ask. Some don’t. That’s the way I see it.
Okay, Fred. I went back and re-read (skimmed) the book of Exodus, and I see your point. God did give Moses specific direction all along the journey to the Promised Land. And those Israelites who did not get on board with God’s vision lost a chance at true freedom and lost their precious firstborns.
So, while I still don’t like the idea of handing church leaders a blank “vision” check, I do concede that God does sometimes ask individuals to implement a specific vision for the good of the corporate body. Thanks for contributing to the vision dialogue.
How would you suggest that people–especially those not in pastoral or church leadership positions–determine whether a “church vision” comes from God’s desires or from human desires? And, if a church member thinks that an expressed vision is not being directed by God, what should that member do with that suspicion? (In my former church that question was easy to answer–any suspicion of pastoral expressions was met with a finger pointed to the exit door.) But I digress, what would you do in that situation?
@ttm:
I was once in a church in which I did not agree with the position put forward by the leadership (in fact it was largely the pastor, the other elders later apologised for not standing up against him).
First, I just lived my own vision, er, sorry, lived my faith as I believed was right, trying to focus on the areas where I could do my own thing without crossing swords (although I often failed in avoiding conflict). It was a painful period, and I had to work through some of my own personality issues. Looking back, I wouldn’t miss it for the world.
There came a time when I believed it was right to leave the church, so I moved to a different church, and have not regretted it since.
Even in a church that I feel “at home” in, there will always be points that are not quite “up my street”. I try to live out my own calling, and to let other people live out their calling, too.
I would not be happy about starting an “opposition party” within the church. If the church gives me space to live out my own calling, that’s OK. And as far as possible, I try to be active in my support for the leadership, but without going beyond what my heart is happy with.
I am one of those who sees vision as a positive, personal and supportive concept. However, if someone starts manipulating and dragging me where I don’t want to go, my shackles rise like the best of you.
Thank you for your response, Victor. I think I agree with your approach. Of course, the first order of business when we suspect something is rotten in Denmark should be to refocus on our own attitudes and personal integrity.
I got to the point in my last church that I was not able to shut up about what I saw as very ungodly behavior on the part of the church staff. When I realized that I was comprising my own integrity by badmouthing the leadership and making others feel bad about being connected with a church they were formerly thrilled with, I knew it was time to leave.
I haven’t found a church home yet. Honestly, I’m not really looking. My head is still reeling from the jabs of manipulation and my mind still isn’t clear on what a healthy church looks like. In the meantime, I’m enjoying getting to know God without all the vision statements and strategy taking away from the personal conversation.
ttm,
I was just going to say “I don’t know,” but Victor did a swell job of answering.
Sigh. Why is it every time I try to be slightly sarcastic or expressing of agreement with David in a comment I end up making so many people mad at me? Or people assume I’m “jaded.” I was just trying to participate. The intensity and ferocity here does remind me of seminary debates. I should know, I’ve been in them [former seminarian myself]. I suppose that it [the mention of this being akin to seminarian conversation] DID sound condescending, I am sorry Fred. I meant to help ‘lighten’ the mood, and apparently didn’t succeed. Why should I be lambasted just for commenting that I agree with what the author said? Why should I be lumped in under the “jaded” tag? Maybe I have very good personal experience reasons for concurring on certain issues. Maybe I have thoughtful AND biblical theologically sound reasons as well…
So some people like visionary leadership and some of us don’t. No biggee.
Jo. Don’t sigh. You are not to blame. Your point of view is well received. You are not jaded, I don’t think. And who cares if you were? Like Paul became jaded with a hypocrisy that was entrapping churches, it is okay. Jade away!
Jo Hanson, no biggee.
Here here! Only read this now and -agree again!! Great post. Just this very moment in my home church it’s all talk about THE VISION THE VISION THE VISION…Like we should all work for the vision/the theology. While I feel it is sucking out life of many. It’s not bad in itself, but if vision goes before people/their well-being..Is that of God? I doubt it. I think there is deep truth in concentrating on loving and letting God do the rest. And exactly what you say about your children – yes! God Bless.
Ah, Mimosa…we should all work for “the theology.” That’s a whole new issue!
I love that this thought and post has caused so much conversation. I am struck by the amount of sarcasim that has come out of disagreement. It shows the importance of these questions. The sardonic tones show how entrenched these views are in Christendom and how scary it is for them to be questioned. Sardonic wit is not an answer to the misues of the words ‘vision” and ‘mission’ that have been used to oppress and misuse the Gospel.
Maybe your vision could be a ‘notvision’: My notvision is to be mindful of the fact that God made us in his image, and I am yet to understand his image, therefore I accept that we are all different (yet inherently the same). Therefore, my notvision is to respect that some people work and respond well within the construct of a VISION, and they are loving the poor and caring for the sick and all the things Jesus wants us to do. My notvision is also to respect the fact that some people work and respond well within the construct of a NOTVISION, and hate visions, and they are loving the poor and caring for the sick and all the things Jesus wants us to do.
I got halfway through John and Heidi’s banter and I had to give up reading all the comments. over 100! whew.
I agree with you, but I do think that saying having vision is demonic is pretty extreme.
I agree “demonic” is a strong word. And I use it because it best describes what happens to people when they are conscripted to another person’s idea of what ought must and should happen, no matter how noble.
And how do you mean that? That people become demons? That people become demon-possessed? Demon-influenced instead of God-influenced? Yes, it’s a very strong statement.
I think the scripture that is being referenced is I Timothy 4:12 which talks about “deceiving spirits and things taught by demons…”
What this comes down to is an issue of semantics. Today, “vision” is a catch phrase that means trying to attain a goal that is man-made, not as it was intended to be (ie. How clearly do you see God?”
Pardon the following metaphor.
We’ve set up stain glass windows that we see God through. Our “vision” is maintained in the temporal, rather than the eternal. This should not be so.
Yes, William Lehman…when I have referred to vision I mean that which is specifically God-given, not dreamed up or concocted. And I don’t believe that people need to be coerced or manipulated into following a God-given vision. Maybe that’s the test?
Fred:
Who tests the vision to determine whether it is God-given or manmade?
If it is God-given, will everyone automatically be on the same page?
If a proposed vision is found to be NOT God-given, what happens?
Most importantly, does God give everyone the same vision?
If so, why the disagreement here?
If not, does it really matter that we all define and apply “vision” the same way?
Every individual must test the vision that he is following–whether God originates it with himself/herself.
If it is God-given, not everyone will automatically be on the same page. The reprobates won’t. Just kidding. I have two different church experiences to relate to: One of an older, more traditional church. There is probably a problem with coming in and “changing the vision.” If God began the church with a vision, it may need to be updated, but why would it change? Strategy might. Form might. But I don’t see a wholesale “revisioning” lining up with what I understand. In contrast, I am now in a church that began with a clear vision. So in that case, people will decide very quickly whether or not they are on the same page, or on the same page enough. If they are, they stay and commit. If not, then they don’t stay long anyway.
Does God give everyone the same vision? I hope not. The more general you think of vision, the closer you come to “everyone has the same vision.” But then God has different purpose for every individual city, congregation, etc. That’s one reason why there are different churches in the same town. It’s not wrong and it’s not always negative–the result of conflict, etc. There’s room for many flavors.
Ultimately I have no problem with defining and applying vision differently. I only have a problem with one definition or point of view being applied to all–just as much as I might have a problem with people saying, “Ohhh, I had ice cream once and it made me sick. Actually twice. Ice cream is bad and should be outlawed. Nobody should eat ice cream.”
(…and, just to aggravate my point and start the argument all over again (
), I’ll say, “that wasn’t ice cream you were eating; it was sour cream.” And the response is, “No, I know what ice cream is; this is ice cream.”)
Thanks, Fred. I have a better understanding of where you’re coming from…and a sudden urge to open up that carton of Chocolate Fudge Chunk that’s waiting seductively on the top shelf of the freezer.
Do it!
“Who is among you that feareth the LORD, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the LORD, and stay upon his God. Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow” (Isaiah 50:10-11 KJV).
This passage describes in part the two-sided coin of which you speak. Trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon your God, to receive the revelatory vision. Those who attempt to spark their own fire, their own vision, lie down in sorrow.
Excellent article and one that the ‘modern’ church needs to take hold of. People are dying with a vision – who’s to say that one man and the board can create a vision for an entire church and for everyone to fit into that vision.
For those interested I did a book review on ‘Renegotiating the Church Contract’ by James Thwaites. Deals with this very topic.
Thanks for the post.
My Vision/Purpose
i must decrease
He must increase