Yesterday was interesting. When I started speaking from Isaiah 44 on idolatry, I stressed that we all are inclined to make our own gods. Like the man in Isaiah, he takes a log, warms himself and cooks his food with it. Then with the rest he makes his god and prays for it to save him. I argued that we all take the raw material around us to primarily meet our own needs and desires since we are resolutely self-centered creatures. Then, to secure these comforts, we fashion God in an image that will supply us with these. Although we may think we are more advanced than the primitive person who worships a stone or piece of wood, we are really no different. We create our own images of God. And these images aren’t God. They are just images created by our brains to maintain our creature comfort. I could go on and on. That wasn’t the interesting part.
What was really interesting was I had hardly opened my mouth, basically just presenting my thesis, when people started jumping in with questions, challenges, comments, and discussions. The whole “sermon” time was hot with conversation. I loved it. This, I think, is one of the best ways to unwrap a text: through community effort. Together we can search for and perhaps discover the truth.
I suddenly recognized the connection between my blog and church. I hope, with my cartoons and posts, that I will facilitate discussion and form a kind of community of a vast assortment of people. And since I am the moderator of the comments on this blog, I hope further to maintain the community of people. I absolutely love the diversity of nakedpastor as well as my church community. Like my blog, we have atheists, agnostics, skeptics, liberals, conservatives, evangelicals, health-wealthers, and some that don’t subscribe to anything at all. And on top of that we’re all downright sinners. For me, this is more important and valuable than homogeneity. Homogeneity sucks. Unity rocks. But in that unity, diversity must exist or it is only a contrived unity. Like on my blog, it is crucial to facilitate conversation as well as moderate it so that there may be community. We sometimes argue like crazy, but we’re still together because we love each other. I think that’s cool. You?
The fine art photograph is from the mannequin series of my friend Mark Hemmings. Gorgeous!
Contributions to nakedpastor are greatly appreciated.
David Hayward is a pastor artistically stripping to the essential.
I have never gone to a church where a sermon could turn into a discussion. Love it! In fact, most of the pastors I have had seem too busy to ask questions of, even after service.
A few quick comments David:
1 – I have a feeling I would visit your church at least a couple times a month if I could.
2 – We create our own images of God. And these images aren’t God. They are just images created by our brains to maintain our creature comfort. Since I do not believe in any gods, I don’t agree that I have created any images of any gods in my brain. Were these comments directed at believers?
3 – And on top of that we’re all downright sinners. Since I do not subscribe to the term, I can’t say “amen”. I must protest. I do not believe I am a sinner, nor do I believe you are a sinner, unless I just don’t understand how you are using the word.
4 – We sometimes argue like crazy, but we’re still together because we love each other. I think that’s cool. Amen!!
AB: Come on over and give it a shot! It’s high-risk. But what’s fun without risk?
Randy: It’s people like you who help me to refine my thinking! You’re right: “sinners” doesn’t work, does it! Let me say that we all have problems, weaknesses, struggles, secrets, and dark sides. About the image of God, whatever it takes, I suppose, to secure our comfort and supply our needs… whether it’s our income, our family, our government, a “god”, or even our own efforts… then perhaps that COULD be our idol, our god, the supplier of our needs. I realize that can be argued.
Ok David. Sounds good.
I think my only problem with “sin” is the idea that I have committed some infraction against God.
If I can define “sinner” to mean that a person has done something hurtful to his or her fellow humans, I admit I deserve that label.
How long have you been encouraging discussion and how big is the crowd? I’ve been thinking about this for a while now, but I as you said it’s high risk! Who knows where the crowd will take you? I do think my people would probably find it engaging and refreshing, I just haven’t been brave enough to give it a shot.
I agree, diversity MUST exist. I enjoyed the interaction on Sunday. Continue to be a risktaker please! I don’t even know if you know it.. but this weekend, many times.. you were Jesus’ hands loving me and I just wanted to say THANK YOU!
Jim: Years now. When I started, it was quite adversarial at times because we had gone through a split. It is still high risk. Crazy things still happen, but after a while, you get a knack at moderating discussion. Give it a shot. Maybe give your people warning. Try it.
well joni, i say the same for you my friend
hi all
our guy up front also encourages interaction, although I don’t know that it’s ever reached the point of a “conversation” during the sermon.
love the blog, david, keep it up
what’s a health-wealther??
Welcome Lor. A health-wealther is someone who believes that all God’s people should be healthy and wealthy.
I’d come on over with the family for some spirited discussions, but the commute is a little long for south Texans:)
yes… i think it’s cool. the commute is even longer for a travel phobic brit! but, i love this site. what i’ve read so far warms me… it’s not that i have to agree with everything, it just feels like a safe space for difference and agreement. thanks for this site mr.naked reverend sir, it is like a little bit of something holy and homely.
ps. i also enjoy your cheeky wit… and the aplomb with which you stir shit.
pps. you should come over to england and do your thing at the greenbelt festival in england… we could do something jointly on humour and the kingdom, or something… maybe next year as this year i think i’ve taken on enough there. what d’you think, i could have a word if you like? (should have sent this in a private email, but got on a role!). cheers, j.
jon: i’m always up for an adventure. try me out! and thanks for the encouragement
thanks. well, how then do they reconcile sickness and poverty amongst God’s people?
cheeky wit… ha ha ha
Dave….it would be interesting to know what some of the questions, challenges, and comments. Can you share some of them??? Thanks! John
Sure John. One of the first ones was, “Are you outta your effin mind???” Then another one was, “I think you are the most intelligent, handsome pastor on the face of the earth.” I can’t remember any more right now
No, seriously. We started exploring together how the brain so quickly can manufacture a “god” that totally suits what we want God to be rather than what God actually is. We talked about what some idols might be today. Some shared their struggle with feeling money holds more power over their life than God. One woman shared that she struggles with her weight and considers food has holding far too much power in her life. We also talked about how, as soon as we make a statement about God, it is immediately limited. Stuff like that.
Its interesting that you mention that “the brain so quickly can manufacture a ‘god.’” I have come to believe that many in Christianity have created an idol of the bible. It is true that as soon as we make a statement about God, it is immediately limited. And because it is limited it is only an image of God. It may not be a graven image, but it certainly is just as small. In some contexts it could be considered a lie since it is only a partial truth.
There seems to be a lot of magical thinking around the Bible making a statement about God versus one of us making a statement.
I happen to agree with Jesus when he points to results as the basis of truth. (by their fruits you will know them not their doctrine or the book they read.)
absolutely agree richard. a brave thing to say about the bible, but i have believed it for a while. fruits are everything…
does anyone else struggle with the ethnic cleansing which seems to happen in the OT? the traditional view is to accept it as god’s judgement… yet if it were to happen now (which it does in places) and it was said be god’s judgement we would be horrified, and rightly so i should think!
i know it’s a different subject, but it bothers me. i do a lot of animating for a major christian organisation and i often feel i have to ignore these troublesome bits of text… gloss over them… that bothers me too.
wisdom anyone?
JB,
One little observation I recently encountered was that “Christianity is not a religion OF the book”. But rather the book (bible) is a book of the Religion (and it’s predecessor). So the bible in this sense becoems less prescriptive, and more descriptive, so obviously evidence of flawed humanity results.
The quote was used when comparing religions/ belief systems that spawned largely from a book (i.e. Islam, Mormonism – albeit originally from Chrsitianity) with Chrsitianaity. Maybe a subtle, yet I think a significant difference. (This quote is not mine and I cannot, unfortunately, reference it. So please accept my apologies).
It follows then that one could view the text as evidence of people trying to wrestle with God within the Judeo-Chrsitian worldview, as opposed to a scripted set of instructions straight from the mouth of God.
Yes! I believe in unity&diversity too, homogeneity truly sucks! You put my thoughts into words!
Mimosa
jon birch , that is one of the many reasons why I am an atheist…just one. If the bible is historically accurate, and all of those OT “atrocities” actually occurred, and if the God of the bible is real, and I became convinced that he was real, I could not, would not worship that God.
In the words of Ingersoll the Magnificent; If there is a God who will damn his children forever, I would rather go to hell than to go to heaven and keep the society of such an infamous tyrant. I make my choice now.
I just could not worship a being who’s standard of compassion is lower than mine.
BTW, honestly, I am very, very glad this bothers you. I was never bothered by this during my 25 years of bible belief.
I simply love your friend’s photographic talent – great stuff. You find me in total agreement with the learning together thing. Like your funny comics often pick up on, churches were never meant to be ‘the pastor’s kingdom’; the papacy of the pastor is frequently the main cause of church decay – it is way too risky to solely rely upon one’s interpretation and it also leads the rest of the congregation to become slack and uncunning in their experience and involvement. On the contrary, if we all go to church prepared to contribute, ask, seek, learn, teach – the turnout will be a great deal wider, more challenging. Keep up the good work, Dave!
Wow!! I continue to be amazed.
“We started exploring together how the brain so quickly can manufacture a “god†that totally suits what we want God to be rather than what God actually is.”
This is something some of we (my co-workers and friends) have all been talking about in more recent months. It is amazing to me how we create a god box and God has to fit in it. Just when I think I am open minded and truly seeking what Gods ways and will is I am hit with the reality that I was once again trying to fit God into my box instead of jumping into His. Thanks for keeping me challenged.
-sarah
Okay so I can’t do two things at once… what I meant to say…
This is something some of us (my co-workers and friends) have all been….
I need to remember to proof read my comments before hitting submit.
Have a great day!
Dave,
I’m totally new here, but had a question. You said this in the above comments: “It’s people like you who help me to refine my thinking! You’re right: “sinners†doesn’t work, does it! Let me say that we all have problems, weaknesses, struggles, secrets, and dark sides.”
Why did you hesitate to call sin, sin? And sinners, sinners? To be saved, you must know you’re lost/needy/damned/etc. How can someone be convinced to take the cure if they don’t even know their sick?
I understand it may appear condescending to some (but we all fall into the sinners category), but why mince the truth? Perhaps you didn’t and I just did not understand what you were trying to say.
Dave: Have you read Doug Pagitt’s “Preaching Re:Imagined”? In it he talks about the need to move beyond “speaching” (traditional preaching) and towards a more communal environment of dialogue and participation. Definitely worth the read. Let me know if you’d like to borrow it sometime…
Eve said: Why did you hesitate to call sin, sin? And sinners, sinners?…why mince the truth?
It must be so wonderful to KNOW. It must be so wonderful to be so absolutely convinced that what you believe is the truth, that you can call someone a sinner based only on the words written in a 2,000 year old book, and be so completely confident that you can correct those who do not live up to your standard.
Eric Hoffer said, “To know a person’s religion we need not listen to his profession of faith but must find his brand of intolerance.”
Gustave Le Bon said, “One of the most constant characteristics of beliefs is their intolerance. The stronger the belief, the greater its intolerance. Men dominated by a certitude cannot tolerate those who do not accept it.”
David, anyone, please tell me how John can be friends with Joe, when Joe honestly believes John will spend eternity burning in hell, sent there by the God Joe worships, for one reason only…that John just doesn’t believe in Joe’s God?
Someone please tell me how this works. From my perspective, it can’t work. How can a person help but be insulted by the believer, the fundamentalists who considers them to be an infidel, a heathen, a sinner?
It is this version of Christianity that is so divisive. Those believers who do not subscribe to it are labeled pseudo Christians once they are found out, and those who are unbelievers are immediately cast into the future lake of fire.
But, I know. Few believers will or can sympathize with the unbeliever who slowly turns and walks away, alone.
…and for what it’s worth, I am not a sinner.
sin is anything that which causes me to act in a manner contrary to God’s plan for me. Jesus is very clear – the two greatest commandments are to love God and love each other.
you’re not a sinner? you’ve never said an unkind word, behaved in a manner you regretted, caused someone else pain?
My husband is a non-believer. I know God brought us together for a purpose and I don’t lose a lot of sleep over his eternal soul. God will work in his time. We all have a journey. I see no need to spend it doing battle over who and what God already knows. There is so much I don’t know and will never fully understand. I’m okay with that. God is God and I am not. My life got so much easier when I recognized that simple fact.
We can agree to disagree civilly and meaningfully. I’m kind of at a loss as to why this is so difficult for so many people.
lor – I’m kind of at a loss as to why this is so difficult for so many people. I’ll tell you why: many christians believe I am going to a very bad place. A place that they have absolutely no evidence actually exists. And I am going there simply because I don’t believe as they do. In my little county of about 86,000 people, probably 80,000+ believe just that. And I have to be very careful who knows that I don’t believe that. If the wrong Christian finds out, and they tell their Christian friends, I am out of business. They will spend their money elsewhere. That is a fact down here in the southeast USA.
So, not only do they believe I will be punnished in the afterlife, of which they have ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE FOR, they will also make sure I pay for my unbelief in the here and now.
But, lor, I don’t expect you to understand. You are a believer.
And no, I am not a sinner, but I have said unkind words before. I have behaved in a manner I later regreted. I have caused someone pain. Those are not sins. They are what they are – acts of selfisness. Sin is a religious term. I am not religious.
Randy: I love your honesty and my heart aches when I hear you describing the “Christian” community that surrounds you. I would argue that hell is a spiritual reality, a realm in where things aren’t as God intended them to be, but I also believe that hell is a present reality that exists here on the earth. And I wonder if some of the attitudes and actions of the “Christians” you mention here point to this reality…
hey Randy,
You should move up North We’ll do you right
To understand is not so difficult, my husband and I agreed to disagree long ago. I missed the earlier exchange with you and David, when you described the difference in your mind concerning the terms “sin” and “sinner.” Not quite sure how that happened but there you go, yet another shining example of how not together I am…
What I don’t get is the intolerance and insulting attitudes and remarks made by Christians in the name of “saving souls.” We are to convey our stories with gentleness. And here’s the deal for me – it’s not my job to soften anyone’s heart or change anyone’s mind. That is totally the work of the Holy Spirit. I’m not responsible for anyone’s choices other than my own. I am responsible to shine my light and live my life in a manner that is worthy of the God I serve, so people look and say, “hmm, what’s she got? I want that.” I fail miserably on a pretty regular basis at that, I might add.
But what do you guys think about that? Am I off base? Does the Great Commission require more than living a God honoring life and being willing to share it, gently and compassionately? Are we in fact responsible for other people’s decisions or the lack thereof?
hey nakedpastorman, I hope you don’t mind this bunny trail, but it’s been on my mind for awhile and it seems an appropriate place to ask?
nakedpastor (or whatever your name is…
), your completely right that we invent our own “gods” or “redefine God” according to what we want or need. I wish I had my book with me right now–”A Troubled Faith: Do We Really Need God?” by Alan Reynolds. One quote:
“In religion…we must keep a critical attitude that never unconditionally accepts any socially established form of revelation. Otherwise, we are back to idolatry again, this time a self-idolatry rather than an idolatry of nature, where devotion to God is replaced by a deifying of our own present understanding of God.”
There’s more like that. I think it’s important to constantly reevaluate our opinions of who God is and compare them to who he says he is.
@Randy:
It always bothered the HELL out of me. But, I still stuck to my faith until I finally encountered what I considered pretty irrefutable evidence that it (the whole religion) was all made up.
Happily, it’s very likely that none of the Conquest of Canaan was anything more than propaganda. There’s no archaeological evidence supporting it and much that contradicts it, for which I am relieved. Still, I think it’s wrong to think it happened and not question it; I think, even get angry about it. (not directing this at you, Randy.) I just could never understand those around me who didn’t seem at all troubled by the awfulness of killing women, children, or even POWs.
Nevertheless, If I were shown absolute proof that JC really is the son of God and that he rose from the dead, etc etc, I would not hesitate to worship God, even if the Fundies got it 100% right about damnation of people I’d call undeserving of infinite punishment.
It would bother me, but I’d have no choice but to believe that a being so wise had to have his reasons. I’d be “locked in” basically. I didn’t choose not to believe. I simply can’t; knowing what I know, now.
thankyou phil and randy for your answers… if god is god of my mind then i have to believe that the bible very much displays humanity in all its’ aspects. from wonderful love to hateful nationalism, from tolerance to bigotry.
polly, humanity always makes things up to support it’s own little views doesn’t it? why would the bible be any different?
when i look at the infininite pattern and design in the world around me and in the skies above me, that is when i believe in god. god, the creative, energetic thing that instigates it all and that’s bigger than it all… maybe i’ve reduced god or shaped god to my own tastes, but still, i’d rather go with that than against that.
archeological evidence goes both ways… canaan at the moment appears false whilst joseph appears true… anyones guess what the whole picture will be when they find more, let alone understand the evidence correctly… it’s a big job.
the bible seems to be a mixture of propaganda and history, fable and fact, truth and distortion and we’re obliged to use our brains to unpick it, based on what we understand human nature to be like and the evidence of the world around us.
i hope this is helpful… it certainly explains something of where i’m at.
That is one of the best things I’ve found about the Canadian Vineyard – the discussions are incredible!
Glad to hear it’s not just our church – maybe it’s a maritime thing??
lor: We are to convey our stories with gentleness.
While I appreciate the sentiment, I must ask how much candy-coating is necessary to “gently” tell me that I am a “sinner” deserving of eternal punishment in the fires of hell?
I can tell you, to me, it does not matter how soft you speak, how tearful you look, or even how sincerely you desire me to “repent and believe” for my own benefit. Since I know that there is absolutely no evidence that “sin” is anything other than a name given to an act or attitude I may have toward someone else’s God, I will stir with passion every time you tell me I am a sinner. Why, because I do not believe it. I do not believe in God, therefore, I do not believe I am guilty of offending God.
I apologize if I come off as angry. I’m not really. I just get passionate about some things
Randy
lets_reason@yahoo.com
I get passion and I’m cool with that, but I think you misunderstand me. Sharing “my story” consists of an interaction of friendship and an ongoing communication – sometimes my experience of life change and sometimes not. I’m not standing on a street corner flagging down bypassers, nor do I find is necessary to force anyone to “repent and believe.” That’s your gig, already done mine. But that doesn’t mean we can’t have an conversation to better understand one another. Why go to a nakedpastors blog if you’re not interested in conversation that may eventually turn to issues of religion and God?
I guess so much of it is that there are so many people out there, on both sides of this very volatile issue, that are so quick to be angry and accusatory. And since this forum doesn’t lend itself at all to interpreting voice tone and body language, things can blow up quickly even if that is not the intention. geez, even in person it escalates quickly
There are many things I don’t fully understand and I have a fairly long “God, what was up with that?” list. There’s evidence and there’s faith. I choose faith, even thought there are times it’s hard and I don’t get it. That’s why they call it “faith” and not “evidence” I guess.
Polly:
“It always bothered the HELL out of me. But, I still stuck to my faith until I finally encountered what I considered pretty irrefutable evidence that it (the whole religion) was all made up.”
What was that irrefutable evidence?