I believe I can honestly say that I hold no ill will towards anyone. I can especially say I hold no animosity towards the church I’m leaving, Rothesay Vineyard. The weird suspicions I posted yesterday on “reasons why I left” are not from the mouths of people at my church, but from others.
Let me tell you a story. One of my friends in the congregation of Rothesay Vineyard went to a local mall with his kids recently. The mall was busy. Every once in a while someone would say, “Hey! How are you doing?” And they would have a little chat and move on. His kids would ask, “Who was that Dad?” He’d say, “Oh, that was someone that used to go to Rothesay Vineyard!” This happened several times during the evening. Finally, one of his kids said after another encounter, “And who was that Dad? Oh, never mind. It was someone who used to go to our church. Right?”
You see, hundreds of people used to go to our church. Literally. And hundreds have left. Most in a messy manner. Our church used to be the one who hosted all the conferences and renewal meetings. Actually, I kid you not, but thousands of people have been affected (infected?) by our church. And, as some of my peers have said, I am a provoker. I am a s**t-disturber. A s**t-magnet. Controversy swirls around me, and I have therefore embroiled Rothesay Vineyard in controversy just by being its pastor. So it isn’t my immediate community, as far as I know, that are spreading the malicious rumors, suspicions and hunches. There are hundreds of people who have a not-so-rosy opinion of me and Rothesay Vineyard.
It is my sincere hope that by me separating myself from this community, it will enjoy a new and long overdue season of good favor.
If you like what nakedpastor has to say, your support is appreciated.
artist. cartoonist. teacher.
David, reading this post reminded me of something Peter Kreeft said once, something like, “Priests are the sewer systems of the church” – that they “take away the sins”. Something like a sin eater. As a therapist, I am deeply aware of my “sewer” status, that it is my job and privilege to enter into the shit of life and muck in areas that otherwise rarely see the light of day. “Shit magnet”. Yes. Jesus yes. From my brief exposure to your thoughts here, you seem to have that polarization. Priest, Prophet, Magnet for Unmentionables. Again, like Jesus.
By the way, when my wife and I visited Paris several years ago, my favorite tour was the Paris City Sewer tour. Fascinating. (factoid: Until the early 1800s, Paris, a city of a million people had only open trenches in the streets to carry all the refuse to the Seine.)
I like what you do.
Here I am in Paris yet my heart is with NP. As soon as I get home I will put a 100 dollar cheque in the mail to him. I don’t care about tax receipts. I want to bless NP not only in words but in deed. I invite all NP blog regulars to make a contribution to encourage him. Guys, let’s show Naked Pastor a little support – he needs us to be there for him now. Think “I was naked and you clothed me!” Note NP did not ask for this – this is why I am.
David, what kinds of controversy when Rothesay use to hold all the conferences? Were you “too charismatic”, “too free thinking”, “too liberal” etc….
I remember the controversies in Kelowna when Wimber came but the controversies were local not because of Wimber… Then of course Toronto.. why were you the s**t disturber?
Mike…. that is profound. And very helpful.
They thought you had sex with some THING!!! Good heavens! And would it matter if it’s not a person? I’m sure the vaccuum cleaner doesn’t mind. And as long as the hamster didn’t get hurt…
It worries me though that you feel no anger. You SHOULD feel anger. The more passive you are, the more shit people will dump on you. If you appear as a blank screen then people project all sorts of stuff onto you – you have to have a strong sense of yourself. I’m saying this from experience.
I’ve always wanted to do the Paris Sewers tour – especially after reading Les Miserables. The Sewers have played such an important role in the history of Paris.
I don’t buy that anger is a necessary response. I’m not inclined to anger when folks do me wrong. The thing I have to guard against is thinking that I deserve it, but that is another issue. I think speaking the truth in love, learning to laugh at situations we cannot change and being free to laugh at ourselves are all healthy responses.
May you grow spiritually during this time, NP.
You are correct, sir. Your community loves you…and will continue to do so regardless of affiliation.
sometimes in our journey of life we come in contact with people who have a profound impact on our lives and teach us some incredable truths ,in my life i call these people heros i must say that the np has been this for me and will probably continue to be ,i just hesitate to think of what this world would be like if we were all of the same opinions and theroies thank you np and bless you dude.
Louise…AMEN!!!…I was going to ask David if I could take an offering for him…you beat me to it. But, gang…buy some art, send offerings (all you lurkers, too). He blesses us day in and day out…now its OUR turn.
I don’t think I’m slipping into my co-dependent tendencies when I say that neither I nor the community I’m part of here have a low view of you or Rothesay. We loves ya and that’s for sure.
hang in there, hold to God’s unchanging hand, as russ taff used to sing… and blessed are you when people say all kinds of crap against you, when you are persecuted for righteousness sake … Matt 5:10 – 14
PL-we are on the same page sistah! Am preaching an Aglow breakfast this a.m. then on to Bretagne… please keep an eye on NP for me and relaunch love offering campaign on other posts if you feel so led. Since he does not have a golden parachute; NP needs some cash. I see a lot of us have been rooting for him to take the heat – now is the time to act. It doesn’t matter if it’s 5 bucks, the gesture itself will go a long way to show him we care + I know he needs it. I love your heart PL!
Darrin,
Here is an attempt to respond to why David has endured so much criticism over the years. I myself have been at Rothesay Vineyard (and its various permutations and combinations) for over 20 years. My wife and I have been involved in leadership and myself playing drums in the worship band and we know David very well.
I think David just is so unorthodox that people find it hard to pigeon-hole him. He doesn’t pastor like anybody else I know. I think it really bugs people that he refuses to be “directional” from the pulpit, as in telling them how to live their lives. He takes very seriously that people have to work out their own salvation(spiritual path/journey/whatever you want to call it) and let the Holy Spirit speak to them as to how to conduct themselves on whatever the issue of the day is…you name it. I think for most Christians they agree with this theory but things break down when it’s actually practiced because it can be really messy. Because it’s messy, people somehow think it’s wrong…and make up silly stories about David Hayward which have no basis in reality.
To me David Hayward is way ahead of his time and I put him in the same league with other spiritual thinkers like Bono, Bruce Cockburn, Richard Rohr, William Stringfellow, Eugene Peterson…the list could go on.
I hope some day he can write a book and make lots of money because I think he deserves it!
To use a Richard Rohr term, David’s life has had a “cruciform pattern”. If you follow Jesus you will be crucified (and ressurected!) routinely.
Richard Mullin
Richard Mullin,
Your comment reminds me of something Peter Rollins says about how we rely on our pastors to believe on our behalf. We never have to face our doubts as long as the pastor holds up his end of the bargain. Church becomes the means for affirming the beliefs we barely hold onto.
People are people and they will talk.
The Lord fully loves and forgives you all your sin.
Sometimes pastors do not have a chance to hear that very often.
He will bring a new day in your life.
You may not have done anything at all to deserve the gossip… but Christ still is there to offer us a new begining in light of the areas in our lives that have deteriorated from what others have done to us, or from what we have done.
The Lord loves YOU…not your sin.
I worded that sort of goofy.
I read Richard Mullin’s way of putting the struggle. David, did he pretty much get it right?
“I think it really bugs people that he refuses to be “directional” from the pulpit, as in telling them how to live their lives. He takes very seriously that people have to work out their own salvation(spiritual path/journey/whatever you want to call it) and let the Holy Spirit speak to them as to how to conduct themselves on whatever the issue of the day is…you name it. I think for most Christians they agree with this theory but things break down when it’s actually practiced because it can be really messy. Because it’s messy, people somehow think it’s wrong…and make up silly stories about David Hayward which have no basis in reality.”
It takes me forever to wrap my head around concepts. Is this an accurate summary?
rebecca: that is richard’s description. i don’t take exception to it.
Shit Disturber eh? Well if you were making everyone happy you sure as hell wouldn’t be doing your job. In fact, that’s when you start to know you’re doing something worth while and actually accomplishing things…when people start giving you shit about it!
In my experience with “church” and “Christianity,” which has been my entire life, most people that go to church and/or call themselves a “Christian,” generally aren’t. People believe things because of what their parents taught them, or because they grew up in the church. Everyone wants to be safe from “hell” and so they show up at church every Sunday thinking that’s going to cut it.
People generally don’t want to figure things out for themselves, because that requires work, and getting outside of their comfort zones, and asking questions. “Shit don’t ask any questions I’ll look stupid, what are people going to think of me?” People just want to stay in their own little happy world where they feel safe.
You challenge people!
People need to be challenged, they need to get outside their comfort zones if they’re ever going to learn anything and actually grow. You may not be right in everything you say, but you’re challenging people to think for themselves and make up their own minds, something not many people have the balls to do.
Say what you say, Be who you are, and if they don’t like it, Fuck Em!
as i’ve been recently catching up and reading your blog, a thought comes to mind. i am thinking of abraham. david, abraham had no congregation, no parish he could call home. he was called out of his father’s pagan land, and simply sent to the place that God would show him. And a promise that he would be blessed. Richly. as my own church commmunity has been hit with the blow of several key members leaving over a disagreement, and i’d like to say, an issue of “churchism” vs. “non-churchism”, i feel keenly the decision you have made in your case is a correct one. our church’s resounding message is theocracy, not democracy. the head of our church,and thus the pastor’s lead, is none other than the leading of the holy spirit and the Lord himself. sounds funny and impossible if looked at with earthly eyes. but i understand that rule, and am content to abide within it. not everyone has been able, and has left. they want more control, the type of control needs you’ve had pushed upon you, and you can’t abide.
But not all of us encouter a church where we can let God rule and we express ourselves within the confines of his rule only. what God wants us to be doing is the focus. turning inward to see what God wants of us personally. Rather many churches want to focus outwardly, so they can be impressive in works that boast to the world, look at what we do, come and join in the “fun” here and the big numbers of parishioners. This i believe to the detriment of anyone trying to get to the place He has for each one of us.
I think of abraham, going out into the wide world with only God’s word directly to him to guide him. And he heard Him and listened, and God did as he promised to him. And Abraham had his bumps along the way, and mistakes he made when taking matters into his own hands, but for the most part, walked in the light of God wherever he went and whatever he did.
And I also think about the day that he was resting in the shade of his tent in the heat of the day, and saw the Angels of the Lord passing by. Always alert, and quick to react the needs of the Lord in his life and his calling. He hastened to bring them to him and prepare food for them, etc.
So keep your spiritual eyes and ears open. God will show you where he wants you next, and how he wants you to help others in the world. And it very well be as one of your commentators expressed, that you may be ministering in a far more intimate way to those you encounter, NOT in a church. The church of God after all is not in a structure. It is where 2 or 3 are gathered in Christ’s name, that He will be there communing in the midst of them.
I would wish you luck, but that’s not a Christian’s goal. We are not lucky, we are blessed. And driven to serve him in a more perfect way each day. Never lose faith in Him. That’s all that matters in the end. He never fails us. Just take good care of yourself and your family on the journey.
I hope this makes some spiritual sense, and i’m not just rambling. i do care so very much.
Lisa…you are so right on. The institutional church has lost its focus. Jesus said to make our first priority to seek the Kingdom of God. The church’s priority seems to be soul winning…now that seems okay but the souls that are won are not taught to seek the kingdom, but to have a relationship with the Bible that they call having a relationship with Jesus. And…as soon as one of these newly won souls are in the church, they are asked to bring their friends. Its all numbers…butts in the pews…people making altar calls. And then there’s the programs…the drama group, six choirs, the bowling league, the softball team, the gymnastics for Christ group, and spiritual aerobics. Did Jesus say “I asked you to act but you acted not?”…or “I asked you to bowl but you bowled not?” There’s nothing wrong with those activities, however, they quite often are in place when there are no programs to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick, or those in prison. The focus is on numbers and the Sunday performance. Corporate worship is wonderful and necessary…but only as a means to an end. Are you getting more than goosebumps and a feeling of righteousness from it? How do you react to hunger? That friend who is out of work and is struggling? How about the one who landed in jail? Suppose he was your pastor? How about the old person? Do you value them or discard them? And when they have to go to the nursing home? How are you relating to David Hayward…even if you think he’s lost it, into heresey, or just plain daft? Remember…how ever we treat the least in the Kingdom is how we are treating Jesus. Where are you in this walk? Are you more into numbers? Having an entertaining service? Political activism? Lets all look at our focus and the focus of our churches and if the focus is off, why not get to a place where at least our personal focus is in agreement with what Jesus taught.
Richard Mullin… Thank you for that post about David. That helps for me as an outsider. I particularly like your comment about David as not being “directional”.
Do you ever wonder if people simply prefer being told what to do and how to live rather than being free? And that if you treat them as if the latter is true, they might despise you all the more? I know that for inmates, freedom is much harder and more frightening than incarceration. Is that perhaps true for more than criminals?
Oh… and Nakedpastorskid, you got some fight in ya! cool.
Darrin
April 12, 2010 at 12:42 am .Oh… and Nakedpastorskid, you got some fight in ya! cool.
———-Ya, six year olds can use those big 4-letter words too.
And to think, me saying bob-a-lou got me a reprimand.
I do think that the H—————y word is in full
force in this blog site.
fishon
Fishon, now that I know he’s 6 (you’ve enlightened me), it makes me worry less about him. At the very least he is finding words to express some of his own outrage at seeing his dad’s soul be eaten by the cannibals who are now out in full force because they think they smell blood in the water. Most 6 year olds just swallow that and interpret it as normal. Appropriate or not is not the real issue when staring at something awful of that size to the eyes of a young boy.
Fishon, sheesh. Don’t you get it? He’s angry about the right things! Would you rather the boy strain out the gnat while he swallows the camel?
Regardless of his age (if I misread you), he feels defensive of his Dad. As he should.
fishon: i don’t mind him using that language. it is benign, in my opinion, to say “fuck ‘em!” we all know that means, “don’t worry about them!” i would’ve moderated however if he said, “don’t worry about the fuckers!” it’s the name-calling that i am more concerned about. i’m proud of him.
Darrin
April 12, 2010 at 2:26 am .Fishon, now that I know he’s 6 (you’ve enlightened me), it makes me worry less about him. At the very least he is finding words to express some of his own outrage at seeing his dad’s soul be eaten by the cannibals who are now out in full force because they think they smell blood in the water.
——-No man; the cannibals can NOT eat his dad’s soul unless his dad allows the cannibals to eat it. You play the old victim-hood game there. NP ain’t some hillbilly with no education and understanding that he can be led around to the hot pot of destruction, to be boiled alive by the meat eaters. To be injuried, for sure—but whether we are pastors or the congregation, we all have cannibals throwing spears. The only real dangerous meat eater in this [NP senario] is the NP himself. He is eating himself alive, and blaming it on the….
Fishon, sheesh. Don’t you get it? He’s angry about the right things! Would you rather the boy strain out the gnat while he swallows the camel?
——–Oh, I get it.
preacherlady – Great description. Too much of the church is like this.
Lisa: “our church’s resounding message is theocracy, not democracy. the head of our church,and thus the pastor’s lead, is none other than the leading of the holy spirit and the Lord himself. sounds funny and impossible if looked at with earthly eyes. but i understand that rule, and am content to abide within it. not everyone has been able, and has left. they want more control, the type of control needs you’ve had pushed upon you, and you can’t abide.”
I’m not really sure what you mean by this. I think the issue is a difficult one. On the one hand, church should never be a simple majority rule. People often just want what’s comfortable and then we lose God’s will altogether. But I’ve also been to a church where there was absolute, unquestioned trust placed in a pastor who was given free range to do anything that he claimed was God’s will. Many of us found out after about all of the ungodly things that were going on while there were no checks on his power.
“what God wants us to be doing is the focus. turning inward to see what God wants of us personally. Rather many churches want to focus outwardly, so they can be impressive in works that boast to the world, look at what we do, come and join in the “fun” here and the big numbers of parishioners. This i believe to the detriment of anyone trying to get to the place He has for each one of us.”
I agree. But we can’t focus on our own spiritual development and never put it into practice, either. It has to be two-fold: loving God by seeking Him, and loving others through doing good. We need both. But I think you are right that we can do without the shameless self-promotion.
christine – yes, i totally agree that in the name of a “theocracy” you can get a pastor that either is a megalomaniac or literally off his rocker. and could, in the name of “it’s what i’ve heard from God” do all sorts of not good things. Or heaven forbid get out the grape Koolaid. and it’s a hard line to walk for the parishioners too. our church does have a board of trustees that is consulted on major issues of things that need to be done, and a vote is cast. but i believe in most cases, if the pastor says he feels something should be done or not done, the board is usually in agreement. but having faith in a pastor is important. if you feel your pastor is truly lead by the holy spirit. hard to tell these days with many false prophets around. but i don’t pretend to know the answer. i just pray constantly for spiritual sensitivity and discernment.
the thing that makes some churches like ours different and i guess very unpopular, is that the focus of our services and activities is doing the will of the Lord in our lives. working towards the new man, the new creation as he wills it. and the pastor’s focus and the focus of the great majority of the sermons, is how to figure out what is the will of God in our lives, and how do we do that? not how many missions we can set up, or music programs, or youth programs, etc. and our “success” certainly can’t be judged by the number of people who warm the pews each week.
and you are also right, we can’t just pay attention to ourselves. that’s not really what i meant. but in striving to do the Lord’s will for us personally each day, what HE has planned for us each day we live, i am sure in so doing we will directly or indirectly be doing something good for others. by following Christ’s example, we’d have no choice. That is the will of God. but as far as it being dictated by the, as preacherlady put it, institutionalized church group as a whole,…there’s the problem.
I find this blog so refreshing. I cannot tell you all how wonderful it is to hear folks talking about this sort of thing. and sensibly, not all fire & brimstone and way-out-there’s…
but i find it hard to concisely express spiritual thoughts in words. so forgive my stammering…
The thing I dislike about blogs is we are simply communicating through words, which are a meager 7% of communication. There is no room for voice tone, or body language. This means whatever we say wont actually be read the way we say it. It will be read the way the reader reads it.
Everything is seen through our own individual filters. This is true of everything. Even when David speaks his message at church, he speaks 1 message but 100 different messages are heard, because we all take what we see, or hear and filter it through our own experiences and beliefs. There’s nothing wrong with that, it’s just the way humans are.
Darrin- My post really wasn’t hostile at all. Atleast that’s not the way I wrote it.
It may seem that way because I’m nakedpastor’s son, but it’s not. I’m simply stating many of the things I’ve observed in the church after my life there. Heck this is true of people in general not just in the church.
Fishon- I agree with you. The “cannibals” can do and say whatever they want but it only matters if nakedpastor lets it affect him. This is what I meant in the saying “say what you say, be who you are, and if they don’t like it, fuck em.” I think David pointed out that I really do mean, “don’t worry about em.” This is because of what I was saying earlier about people filtering everything through their own beliefs and putting their own meaning on things. It doesn’t matter what anyone else says or does, it’s not about David, it’s about their beliefs and where they are coming from in their experiences. It really doesn’t change a thing or affect who David actually is.
As far as “6 year olds” using the same language as me, (I got a laugh out of that by the way) the word “fuck” or “shit” only has whatever meaning people put on it. I do realize this is a “christian” blog where most may have an issue with that word, but that’s just their story, the meaning they put on the word. To me, they are simply verbs to describe something, like “crap” or “screw them,” just with more punch!
As far as all this goes, I’m actually not “outraged” by people saying these things, I understand that they’re just living out their own story, the best way they know how, and I posted here just to remind David of that. Yes he’s going to get shit from people, but that’s because he’s challenging them. Whatever they say or do is about them, not to take anything personally. I’ve actually laughed at what some people are saying, because it is truly hilarious the stuff people can come up with these days!
NakedPastorsKid
NakedPastorsKid
April 12, 2010 at 10:00 pm
As far as “6 year olds” using the same language as me, (I got a laugh out of that by the way) the word “fuck” or “shit” only has whatever meaning people put on it.
——Then you wouldn’t have a problem with me using “fagot,” “nigger,” etc? Sorry, but words have meanings whether they are thrown out as slang or are discriptive. Why do you think several folks on here call me mean spirited and unloving? For many of them it is the words I use. And surely you do realize that there are some on here that those words would offend, might you have been able to get your point across with a word that would not have been so inflamatory?
Yes he’s going to get shit from people, but that’s because he’s challenging them.
———I don’t know ANY pastor that doesn’t get and take crap. Son, we all challenge our congregations
Fishon-
Nope, I don’t have a problem with you using the words “fagot” or “nigger.” Atleast not in the context you have. My point is, everyone has their own meanings on certain words and interpret them in their own ways.
The word “nigger” for example, I have a couple african american friends who call eachother “nigger” all the time. It doesn’t have the same meaning to them as it would to an 80 year old person living in Alabama. N, I, G, G, E, R, is just a combination of letters until someones places meaning upon it.
As for “fagot,” you could call me a “fagot” and I’d probably just laugh at you, but call a sensitive gay person a “fagot” and they may have a breakdown. It all depends on our own different experiences and associations with the word.
Take “gehen Sie zur Holle,” for example. It means nothing to me, and probably means nothing to you, but if you went to Germany and said this to someone, they probably wouldn’t like you very much.
NakedPastorsKid
April 13, 2010 at 5:18 pm As for “fagot,” you could call me a “fagot” and I’d probably just laugh at you, but call a sensitive gay person a “fagot” and they may have a breakdown. It all depends on our own different experiences and associations with the word.
—–Seems as if you are saying that it is wise and grace to avoid the use of ‘fagot’ in some instances because of peoples sensitivities. And correctly so, I would agree. And you base that on peoples “…different experiences and associations with the word.”
So if I understand you correctly, you would not use the word ‘fagot’ in some instances. Only you know if you meant that. If you did, then I suggest that same principle might apply with the f-word. For you are fully aware that the f-word is quite offensive to many people, and surly there are those who read this blog.
Your analogy: “The word “nigger” for example, I have a couple african american friends who call eachother “nigger” all the time. It doesn’t have the same meaning to them as it would to an 80 year old person living in Alabama. N, I, G, G, E, R, is just a combination of letters until someones places meaning upon it.”
It is quite correct. So I would say that the f-word you use does NOT have the same connotation for me and many others in this site, as it does for you. Therefore, since I am guessing that you would not use the NIGGER word around an 80 yr. old black man from Alabama, why would you use the f-word around, say, a 63 year old white guy from Oregon whom it is offensive to?
And one other question. Do you use that word around your mother? If so, they I am sure nothing I have said, by using your own examples will not make a hair’s difference to you—-however, if you do NOT use the f-word around your mother, why would you use it here around other peoples mothers?
Hey Fishon – You’re right again, there are certain instances where I would not use certain words in certain ways because I would be sensitive to other peoples perceptions of those words. As far as using the “f-word” on this site, I’m not going to go around saying “fuck” all over the place, it was just a part of the expression that I heard long ago and that I live by, so I wasn’t going to change it.
I do understand where you’re coming from, and I can see that you understand my point of view too. Glad we could work it out. I wont “f-word” all over the place.
NakedPastorsKid
NakedPastorsKid
April 13, 2010 at 8:54 pm I do understand where you’re coming from, and I can see that you understand my point of view too. Glad we could work it out. I wont “f-word” all over the place.
——Thank you, and peace to you.