Recently I had coffee with another pastor. He shared how he had lost a few people because they were in a crisis of faith. I have experienced the same loss recently. People who were dedicated and devoted people of faith disappeared from our community because they had lost their faith. I said to my pastor friend, “It’s mostly our fault you know!” He agreed.
Abraham Heschel once said that the first commandment… to not have any other gods before me… is the first one because idolatry is the root of all the others. Calvin said our minds are factories working around the clock in the production of idols, and labyrinths of idolatrous thinking. The church is constantly setting up idols for people to believe in. Then when these idols, these small gods, don’t deliver, and the people for good reason lose their faith in them, we blame the people for it. Some of the people I talk to who have lost their faith are still caught in the same trap. Once they were on the shiny side of the idol, believing in hope that it was true. Now they are simply on the smudgy side of the idol rejecting it as false. Been there. I have been a devout idolator as well as a backslidden one.
Now, when someone says they’re losing their faith or have lost it, I say, “Fine! Been there. Am there. Will be again. Let’s walk this together.” Mother Teresa, frequently enjoying communion with Jesus before she went to Calcutta, receiving her call and going there full of faith to fulfill her vocation, suddenly lost touch with Jesus and never heard from him again. We throw around “Dark Night of the Soul” when we’ve had a bad week. Try never sensing the Lord’s presence ever again!
I validate those who never sense God’s presence. I see honor in rejecting gods. It takes nerve to topple idols and walk away from falsehood. It is fearless to detach oneself from people who cherish counterfeit and peddle snake oil. And I think it sometimes takes courage to be an atheist. I embrace atheists, for in many ways I am one myself.
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David Hayward is a pastor artistically stripping to the essential.
My father was a pastor. He cheated on my mother with a woman who had a bet with her husband that she couldn’t get the pastor to sleep with her. When my mother finally divorced him, a friend called me up to ask if I lost faith in God. I said, “Are you kidding? God is the only thing I can hold onto in my life right now. I’m not giving Him up.”
Losing my faith at that point would have meant to redefine who I was. My faith wasn’t in my father, that’s why I didn’t lose it.
Sin and hard times happen to everyone. God is not your cheat code to life protecting you from bad things. Christians have to wade through the crap of life just like everyone else.
Wow! Right along the lines of what I’ve been thinking lately. If God is God, then we don’t have to pretend, just to be on the in. God can come and get us, so to speak. It does take courage to admit what you’ve really experienced, or haven’t experienced. And if God is real, the falsehoods would only keep you from the real deal? God can do whatever God wants, and if God wants to be silent, invisible and no where near you for a time, or for always, then wouldn’t God be pissed to find us busy with something other than the real deal, because we had to ease our fears rather than live in reality/God’s will. I just read Frank Schaeffer’s “Crazy for God”… A very courageous story of this sort of thing.
I love what you have to say, David. If only more pastors had this view.
(O’Brian, I’m also a preacher’s kid who has family horror stories…)
thanks em and steph.
NP: “I validate those who never sense God’s presence”
Beautiful statement… especially from a Vineyard pastor. How many of us subconsciously (or consciously) wonder what’s wrong with someone when they say they can’t or never have sensed God? After being in the charismatic church for as long as I was and seeing all that I did, I validate those who have never sensed God’s presence, too…I even trust them more.
I agree with Abe: Idolatry being at the root of all sin. Even though most is at a sub-conscious level.
If someone has lost their faith, I think it’s safe to say they never “had” it in the first place.
I can’t now remember how I first came across your blog, David, but I’m sure glad I did.
Trevor: I’m glad you’re a part of this community too.
Aren’t all of us who are at all growing atheists to some extent? When we stop believing in an anthropomorphic being who lives somewhere in the clouds aren’t we evolving into atheism in the traditional sense? I know that when I dispelled all the definitive notions of who/what God is and began to seek the Kingdom within on a regular basis my life began to work…and I stopped feeling God as I had before. We construct idols in our minds of what/who God is and isn’t…we attribute human emotions to him/her/it….we say that God loves rather than God is love. Atheism in this sense isn’t necessarily a bad thing…all of us need to examine ourselves and ask who/what is this thing/being I call God? If you have a surefire explicit definition you can be sure it isn’t God, because God is infinite. Try a little atheism….it might improve your life.
David, you give me Feet-of-Clay-Freedom! Profound spiritual freedom! When I sit with Jesus in my meditations, I am stripped down to me – no labels, no shoulds, no tests, no academia, no doubts – only love.
It’s when I come out of my meditation that all that stuff creeps in. You help me stomp on it, David. Thank you. – Amy
Great post, NP
I do believe, help my unbelief.
Amie said – “If someone has lost their faith, I think it’s safe to say they never “had” it in the first place.”
Christians can insult my mother and I will not be angered, but when they tell me I was never a Christian, “true” Christian, believer, etc, because I am not not a believer now, I want to punch them in the nose.
To blame yourself for another’s loss of faith seems idolatrous to me. You can not be God to them. You can not give them the faith that the Holy Spirit gifts. If you can cause someone to lose faith, it is a very weak and little god they have lost faith in.
Who do you blame when a pastor loses faith? The pastor? The pastor’s idolatry? The pastor’s pastor? At what point does the only Authority that actually has all the power also get some of the responsibility?
If the only definable or provable gods are idols, how can you know there is a god who isn’t? If you don’t know, but are just choosing to believe, are you not creating yet another idol?
I think a lot of Christians ignore certain realities because they are afraid of change. As if one little change in thinking is going to destroy the whole foundation of their faith.
I haven’t lost faith and I’m not on the dark side of any false god or idol. Being an atheist, for me, means that I’m finally comfortable living in a mystery. (In actuality I am closer to agnostic, but since I don’t believe in the god of the Bible I tend to be labelled atheist.)
There is a place, after looking into the abyss, that doesn’t involve “returning” to being a believer. Transformation is about growth and Christianity doesn’t have an exclusive on that.
You are one brave and fascinating man. I feel like I could go “fisty-cuffs” with many Christians, but you….you never ever make me angry!
I want to second Lydia’s thoughts!
Caroline and Lydia: Peace!
Richard: That is in keeping with what I mean. Right on.
Isnt Jesus the epitome of an Idol?
I well understand the interim “from faith to faith”, that space between encounters not assigned any specific period of time. I’m willing to concede that, in someone’s present journey, it may well be that they have not yet experienced their first encounter. What I find sad is when people do not possess any hunger or thirst to know God at all; but, even then, can realize that such state doesn’t necesarily mean God is not working in their life, there in the details waiting for them to lose the veil. If Christ be “in” me, however, then surely what I must continually strive to find manifested in me is His love, His patience, His understanding, enough so that it overflows me and accepts others where they are. This is what I keep hearing here from David and to which I say “amen”……
“I’m willing to concede that, in someone’s present journey, it may well be that they have not yet experienced their first encounter. What I find sad is when people do not possess any hunger or thirst to know God at all; but, even then, can realize that such state doesn’t necessarily mean God is not working in their life, there in the details waiting for them to lose the veil.”
As someone who floats from belief to agnosticism to flirting with atheism on a consistent basis, I would like for someone, at long last, to say specifically and in plain English, what statements like this mean. People love to give the glib “well, maybe you aren’t listening hard enough” answer, but they never want to explain what it means in practical terms. How do you lose the veil?
Amie: “If someone has lost their faith, I think it’s safe to say they never “had” it in the first place.”
I don’t think it’s safe to say that at all. There is always a possibility that we can lose our faith, even if we had it at one time. For one thing, life events may be such that they drive us to question our faith and, perhaps, abandon it. To say that someone who does that never had faith in the first place is without foundation. We don’t know the trials someone else has faced, nor how they affect him.
Also, the person could be facing a Dark Night of the Spirit, when indeed faith is lost for a while. Such an experience can ultimately lead to a richer, stronger faith; but in the interim, it is a bleak and hopeless time where faith seems dead.
Finally, I think that if we assume our faith, once acquired, can be maintained without being nurtured, we are likely to lose it because we didn’t take the trouble. What was given to us through grace may still require our efforts to sustain it.
I have to battle the atheist in myself.
The world, the flesh, and the devil are at odds with the Living God, but yet the Living God persists…for me…and for you.
What a great God we have!
Gene: I don’t think we ever entirely lose “the veil”, life remaining a mystery even after an encounter with Him; but the author of Hebrews makes it clear that there are times when we can step “inside the veil” by “a new and living way” and, if only momentarily, come to a knowledge of His reality if nothing else. Do we grasp everything in its entirety and have all the answers? Some seem to think they do. I think we get the Book, a Holy Ghost anchor line, and a stumble in the next step. Can we be mistaken in what we consider to have been an “encounter”? Quite possibly. Thus the next step and the attempt to follow what I believe to be Him, allowing all three items in the process. That’s my experience thus far, anyway; and to each their own. I believe we need each other almost as much as we need Him…..
“I don’t think we ever entirely lose “the veil”, life remaining a mystery even after an encounter with Him; but the author of Hebrews makes it clear that there are times when we can step “inside the veil” by “a new and living way” and, if only momentarily, come to a knowledge of His reality if nothing else.”
That’s fine. All I’m asking for is a practical explanation of what that sort of thing means. Thanks.
Gene: After reading what I just offered as explanation, I’m not so sure I defined what I mean by “the veil”. There were two veils in the Jerusalem temple, the first an outer one prohibiting gentiles from entering; the second allowing only their high priest to enter once a year and meet with God at the mercy seat. Many believe the second to be the one rent during the crucifixion of Christ. I believe it to have been the first, opening the way for all to enter the temple, there being several references in the Bible of believers yet having to step into God’s presence through such a covering. In Corinthians, Paul writes of one yet being over the eyes of the Jews, comparing it to one Moses wore over his face in coming down off the mount; and it represents a separation from understanding, the mystery of life all around us yet a fog through which we stumble…..
Gene, I think that people say things like that because they assume that “one size fits all”. They find something that works for them – or appears to – and they try to apply it to everyone else. If you don’t share their experience, then there must be something you’re doing “wrong”.
Saying that you don’t hear God because “you’re not listening hard enough” is self-confirming. If you flap your arms hard enough, you can fly. If you aren’t flying, then you aren’t flapping hard enough.
If you haven’t seen some compelling evidence that there is a God in the first place, I don’t see any reason to try to have “faith” in God or to listen to Him. I certainly don’t see any reason to have any hunger or thirst to know Him. In my experience, if God wants your attention, He is perfectly capable of getting it. For some it’s the “still, quiet voice”. For me, it was the spiritual equivalent of a 2 X 4 repeatedly applied upside my head.
But we’re talking about a silent, invisible, mysterious God Who seems to go out of His way to hide. I cannot see how we could be expected to believe in such a God, much less have faith, unless our lives are in some way touched by Him. Without that touch, without *something*, why choose God over the Flying Spaghetti Monster?
How do you lift the veil? I don’t know the full answer. A willingness is required, but not enough. But there’s another question: *Why* do you want to lift the veil? Do you think there’s something behind the veil? Are you sure you want to know what it is? Would it make a difference?
I myself go back and forth, I grew up in the church and have had awful and great experiences there, and my main conclusion has been that God has to show up. I don’t think there’s anything we can do to take the veil away.
Baruch60610 posted “Saying that you don’t hear God because “you’re not listening hard enough” is self-confirming. If you flap your arms hard enough, you can fly. If you aren’t flying, then you aren’t flapping hard enough.”
Excellent illustration.
Baruch60610 posted “But we’re talking about a silent, invisible, mysterious God Who seems to go out of His way to hide. I cannot see how we could be expected to believe in such a God, much less have faith, unless our lives are in some way touched by Him. Without that touch, without *something*, why choose God over the Flying Spaghetti Monster?”
Great question. I think we are talking about honesty here, which I thought was one of the main virtues of Christianity. These kinds of observations are far more true than claims about something we can’t possibly know.
I had dinner last night with a well-known (alas, iconic) person that every person on this blog would know. This brilliant atheist and I explored for three hours the intersections of atheism and spirituality. I didn’t perceive myself as a “christian” trying to convert someone. Rather than carrying a religious agenda, I simply tried to remain honest, loving, charitable, and a friend to this person. He considers religion one of the world’s fundamental problems. And to the extent that religion excludes, isolates, institutionalizes, and breeds an “us-and-them” tribal mentality, I agreed with him. I also pointed out that I see this same kind of intolerance and exclusionary posture from many in the atheist camps.
I think more is accomplished “for Christ’s sake” when we drop our religious agendas and pretense and simply share with others from the depths of our transparency (which is a far better reflection of “Christ in us” than a memorized sequence of propositional creeds and beliefs). In doing this, we approach others with shared honesty, authenticity, and vulnerability that validates people for who they are and where they are at spiritually (within healthy boundaries). If they see a “better way” in us – they will change.
Your name here: You and I are in agreement.
It took a while for me to understand what you were saying with this post because I was reading it too literally. I have made men of the church into idols and, when they fell, I questioned a lot of things related to my faith that wasn’t their fault at all. I so agree with Your Name Here as well….excellent post!
Turn it on its head and try thinking like someone who never had any faith. Suddenly atheism takes no courage at all. I look at the universe, see what is there, accept nothing that is not. Nobody is monitoring and judging my activities, neither my community nor any god. I will face no punishment after this life and no reward. I am free.
Lorelei,
You are free… but you and your knowledge are bound by your human restrictions. Those who have a connection to God are able to transcend human restrictions. He brings us into the unknown to become acquainted things beyond our human grasp. Faith is the real freedom.
Daniel,
What do you mean by transcending human restrictions? That seems rather vague.
As an atheist I can choose to have faith. I can enter my day trusting that things will work out simply because it’s a better way to spend my energy. Trying to keep track of everything that might go wrong is simply a fear based way of spending my life.
I find the core of Christian belief is fear simply because the options are rather limited. Basically you have to chose a poorly defined pathway that most Christians aren’t absolutely sure of or you burn in hell forever. Its seems like you have to transcend or else. And if you aren’t sure what that is, you fake it because the alternative is pretty horrible.
Basically you a claiming to know things that no one can possibly know.
Lorelei,
You are absolutely right that if you haven’t gone through the operant conditioning of growing up Christian it doesn’t really take that much courage. And the only courage I had to use was to choose to follow what my reason was telling me, even though I had been conditioned to be terrified of even considering any other option than Christianity.
Once I got past the conditioned response the obvious illusion I was under was easily apparent. And my focus throughout my journey was really a Christian value, the search for truth at all costs.
richard and lorelei: i agree.
Well, Daniel, consider the number 1/137. That is very close to a constant in physics called alpha. That is an interesting constant. It is so important that Nobel Laureate Leon Lederman has said that if you’re ever in trouble put that on a sign, stand on a street corner, and a physicist will recognize it and come to your rescue.
What is really interesting about alpha is that the equation is one of the few where all the constants cancel out, leaving behind the pure number. Which means that alpha is the same here, or anywhere in the universe. Whether determined by “restricted” human knowledge or “restricted” alien knowledge on the other side of the galaxy. It’s the same number. So I don’t really feel much limitation in human understanding.
Physics works the same everywhere short of within a black hole. At every scale short of the Planck scale. Evolution follows the same principles in every instance of life ever found on Earth, and will follow the same principles when we find life elsewhere. All of these things might change if further investigation reveals new information. Science remains open to new discovery at all times.
My logic is human logic, yes, I am a human being. It allows me to explain my universe from the Big Bang out in every direction. My poor little human mind also lets me read and understand philosophy from the Greeks on down. Lets me understand law and literature and music and art. Believe it or not, that’s plenty.
But I remain open to all actionable data.
Lorelei and Harty,
Some of us look beyond the constraints of this life. Those who have a personal relationship with God often step into his reality when we meditate in the Bible and see him working in our lives. The things we learn there cannot be seen or known in this physical world; only through God.
I’m simply echoing what Jim said.
Daniel,
I may have transcendent experiences, but there is no evidence at all that this comes from the god of the bible. These happen in many traditions and rituals. It is only Christianity that tends to claim these as exclusive or more true.
Richard makes a valid point, Daniel.