Years ago Lisa and I read an excellent little book called Codependency No More by Melody Beattie. At the time we read the book we were suffering the fallout for extricating ourselves from a toxic and codependent relationship with the church and some of its leaders. It had an impact on me because it got me thinking about my codependent relationship to the church. I deal with codependency all the time. I’ve come to the conclusion that one of the most prevalent codependencies is between a pastor and his or her church. I am prone to it just like everyone else. It is an ongoing struggle because, no matter how resolute I might be in maintaining a healthy relationship with my church, there is another partner involved… the church itself. The gravitational pull of all organizations is toward codependency, and it takes the diligence of both parties to strive for health between them. I personally believe that the helpers (pastors, employees, civil servants, clients, etc.) usually become the victims, and for a lone victim to stand up to an entire institution for the sake of his or her own health is often quite costly.
This list, as I looked over it before posting it, can apply to any relationship. It could apply to an employee’s relationship to his employer and company. Any relationship! Check it out and see how you do. In this list, I presume, for simplicity’s sake, that we are the codependent wife and our church, institution, company or whatever partner, is the husband:
- I believe I can change him.
- I depend on his money to live.
- I would rather be loved poorly than to not be loved at all.
- I believe there is a decent person deep inside of him.
- I can’t picture life without him.
- I help him. He needs me.
- I keep things calm by repressing my true feelings and personality.
- I accept that I am called to suffer for this, even though I am often sad or even depressed.
- I feel incredible guilt even when I just think about leaving.
- I can’t listen to the advice of others to get out. They don’t understand.
Can you say any or all of these things in reference to the relationship in question? Then it may be codependent and unhealthy and something may need to be done. And it is up to you! Tomorrow I might post on what we can do if we discover we are in a codependent relationship. Or, if it isn’t codependent but heading that way, what we can do to bring health into this relationship, if possible.
Contributions to nakedpastor are greatly appreciated.
David Hayward is a pastor artistically stripping to the essential.
Except # 2 – Dead on for me.
Yikes that is scary. I have also read that book by Melody Beattie having had an err difficult relationship and have tried to mend my ways. Must apply it to church life too! Such I good spot I wanted to put it on a blog post http://revdlesley.blogspot.com/2010/02/yikes-how-many-vicars-are-codependent.html. Thank-you for highlighting this issue.
Hmmmm……… sometimes life is remarkably synchronous; I just ordered this book online this morning. I realize your comments are more about pastor/church relationship health, and I ordered it primarily to gain insight into my personal relationships, but so many of the analogies are appropriate. Your honesty in expressing your ideas despite the possibility of negative reaction suggest that you definitely have the right idea about moving toward a more balanced relationship. So often the idea of honest expression brings with it the fear of losing support, friendship, love – it takes to courage to be honest in the face of that fear.
Very applicable for the homosexual Christian who is “trapped” in a heterosexual marriage. Especially #’s 7-10.
So…. what are the consequences of saying I will be co-dependant no more, but not actually wanting to leave the organization?
I’ve been wondering that..
Codependents use this prayer a lot..
God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.
I don’t see a strong connection. I also wonder how you can tell the difference between a co-dependent relationship, and a difficult one.
1. Aren’t you *supposed* to try to change it? Aren’t we all, for that matter? It’s one thing to try to change a person. As Larry Wall says, “People get annoyed when you try to debug them”. But shouldn’t we all be working to make the church better – to *change* it?
2. OK, this one matches. It applies to every job I know of. I believe that we may be *dependent*, without being co-dependent. If this is co-dependency, then I have to wonder whether co-dependency is always a bad thing. I need my boss’s money; he needs my work. We each depend on the other. Are we co-dependent?
3. I wonder what it means to be “loved badly”. How are we to tell when we’re “loved badly” or just loved by an imperfect human being whose love is also imperfect? Where do we draw the line – or for that matter, *do* we draw a line?
4. If you didn’t believe there was a decent “person” within the church, what are you doing there? Wouldn’t that be a criterion for even being with a church at all? Same with a person. The logic of this would be that you’re not co-dependent if you *didn’t* believe there was a decent person within him. Somehow this doesn’t make a whole lot of sense.
5. OK, sure. Worrying about life without *this* church may be co-dependent. You may need to be with *some* church, but not necessarily this one.
6. The church needs you. Yes, any church would need you. Being needed (or feeling that you are needed) is not, per se, a symptom of co-dependency. It is a feature of human relationship, and the relationship between a church and its pastor and members.
7. Definitely co-dependent. Any time you have to “keep things calm”, it’s a problem. It means that things are sometimes *not* calm, which is not a good situation.
8. I don’t know; maybe. Many Christians feel that they are, indeed, called to suffer. I suppose that being sad and depressed would be a part of this. I have never understood this idea of “called to suffer”, but enough Christians believe it that I don’t feel right to just dismiss it. Not sure how “co-dependent” it is, however. Sounds more like questionable theology.
9. Ah, guilt. Yes, it’s often a sign of a seriously flawed relationship. As long as it’s not a sign of having done something wrong – or not having done something that should have been done. I would think that feeling guilt about abandoning a relationship would be inevitable, and not necessarily unhealthy. If the guilt kept you in a harmful relationship, then yes, it would be co-dependence.
10. Depends on the others. If you find you can’t listen to the advice of those who are (or were) in your situation, then sure. Otherwise, how would they know? It’s like an alcoholic. Some non-alcoholic preaching at them is going to have just about zero effect. But if the person is also an alcoholic, he’s got significant credibility.
THE CODEPENDANT CHURCH by Virginia Hoffman
WHEN GOD BECOMES A DRUG by Leo Booth
These two are also good, in addition to the book David mentioned. It is my belief that anyone who ministers in any capacity needs to address their codependency issues. The only thing we can change is us. We can give someone else the tools to change, but they have to do the changing. Religious addiction is one of the hardest to spot. Initially it looks as if a person who was a substance abuser has been set free. As time goes by, we find that they’ve only changed their brand. Now, some of you are going to say “whats wrong with being addicted to Jesus?”…lots…its still an addiction and addictive behavior goes with it. The person doesn’t benefit from the addiction and the family is still subject to the behavior. Instead of the drunk who’s a great guy in the bar and then comes home and beats his wife, we have the minister who is this wonder person in church and is still an abusive husband and father. Its an intense subject. Thanks for bringing it up, David.
baruch60610: if your primary reason to pastor a church, or even be a part of it, is to change it, that’s not healthy. primarily, love is what makes a healthy relationship work.
I realize that I wasn’t quite clear about religious addiction…it doesn’t have to be a substance abuser and their behavior isn’t necessarily what would be called abusive. God. the Bible, church, Jesus becomes their drug of choice and their inner life isn’t changed. They become human “doings” rather than beings and spend their whole lives helping God out. Its a difficult one to spot because it doesn’t seem that something that on its face a good thing could be detrimental to someone. It depends on where their validation comes from. My first spiritual director was one such person. He was a drunk who never did any of the transformative work that is usually done in recovery. Glory hallelulia it was under the blood…until his buttons got hit and he began to drink again. Until the day he died he was either drinking or in active ministry or at least in church or a prayer meeting any time the doors were open. At the end of his life he found a church where he could minister and still keep drinking. His addiction turned into a blessing in my life…I got so badly hurt in the ministry he directed that it led to my participation in AlAnon and confronting the damage that alcoholism in my family had done to me and taking the responsibility of recovering from that damage. I couldn’t change them but I could change me and I did and I’m still changing. And thats why the basis for most of what I teach is the Sermon On the Mount….most of the twelve steps are based on it and if we take only those few scriptures and apply them to our lives daily, we will grow.
nakedpastor said, on February 8th, 2010 at 8:39 pm
baruch60610: if your primary reason to pastor a church, or even be a part of it, is to change it, that’s not healthy. primarily, love is what makes a healthy relationship work.
————Oh love is good, but how about:::::::::::::::::::::It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. 14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. 15Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ (Eph. 4:11-15).
fishon
After about 4 years of CODA (CoDependent’s Anonymous), I began working in our Anglican Parish Office. It nearly broke my heart…I had to grow up spiritually very quickly so I could detach from the myriad of triangulation that took place. If I could have turned that gossip and criticism into stained glass windows, I would have had walls of Jesus crying!
Love your forthright and courageous approach. Is someone listening or are there just more committees being formed to look at why the church is not growing?
Thank you, Amy
NP, there is a difference between wanting to change something, and making that a primary consideration. I assume that the primary purpose of joining a church is to find fellowship. And I further assume that the primary purpose of pastoring a church is to create the conditions where fellowship is possible and encouraged. If these assumptions are incorrect, then of course the conclusions I base on them are also going to be faulty.
Since we’re imperfect, our church is going to be imperfect. That being the case, it makes sense to want to change it, to eliminate or at least minimize the imperfections. If fellowship is the main goal, then it is entirely possible for a pastor to think, “Hmm.. X is getting in the way of fellowship. Maybe we can do something to change that.” Is this wrong to do? Does that make a relationship co-dependent? I don’t see it.
I think that love is only half the story. Truth is also important. When love is blind, problems are hidden or encouraged, instead of faced and dealt with. I don’t see any conflict between loving your church, and wanting it to be better – wanting to help make it better. In fact, I believe this is the more complete expression of love.
Of course, I’ve never pastored a church, so I may not have a clue what I’m taking about (which has never stopped me from expressing an opinion). I may be completely off about this issue.
@Preacherlady: As an alcoholic, I think I might be able to offer a bit of insight into addiction.
What makes a person an alcoholic – or any sort of addict – isn’t how much they use, but what that use does to them. If the activity causes harm in some part of their life, and if they still continue that activity, then chances are it’s an addiction.
Some addictions – work, religion, exercise, probably others – are not only tolerated by society, they are encouraged. That makes it more difficult to recognize, and harder to overcome.
Baruch:
You said:::::I think that love is only half the story. Truth is also important.
—————Right on. 1 Timothy 4:16 reads–”Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because….” The ‘because is pretty important.
fishon
Thanks Amy. Nice to hear from you.
Baruch60610 said – “I think that love is only half the story. Truth is also important.”
I think that “truth” is pretty much the entire problem with the church. What one person considers truth another considers error. If the people of the church have this attitude – “…love is only half the story.”, love pretty much becomes NONE of the story. Just look at how fishon approaches anyone whom he considers as not following the “truth”. It is obvious by his words – Truth has to be believed, followed, proclaimed before love can even begin to be exercised. THAT, is a most horrible attitude. With that attitude, once it becomes the mindset, a person begins to believe that love = proclaiming the truth. Just look at Fred Phelps and his truth proclaimers at Westboro Baptist Church. They proclaim truth every time they stand on a street corner holding signs.
I submit that love, compassion, concern for your fellow church members, and for those outside the church, must be “truth free”, otherwise, all you end up doing is fooling yourself by confusing judgment as love.
The reason truth is basically useless (with regard to religious faith and exercise) is because people do not KNOW the truth. All they have is a belief based (somewhat) on what is written in the bible. And that belief is molded and shaped by other Christian (ministers, apologists authors, fellow believers) that they encounter. In other words – they confuse belief for knowledge (BELIEF that something is true for KNOWLEDGE that something is true).
I challenge any Christian to offer one truth, just one major doctrinal necessary truth that every person has to KNOW in order to be a Christian (since truths should be known, for truth does not need to be believed). What is the ONE truth requirement I must KNOW before I can be a Christian? Please tell me. I only request that this “truth” be obvious, you know, obvious like the coolness of ice, the wetness of water, the sweetness of sugar. Truth, once discovered, generally remains incredibly obvious. Shouldn’t the “truth” of how to become a Christian be incredibly obvious?
Once Christians agree (admit) that they really don’t KNOW, but only BELIEVE, they can get on with a life of actually loving people, rather than pretending to love through evangelism, judgement, correction.
Bob,
Well said.
Bob, I’d suggest the one truth that every person has to KNOW in order to be a Christian is, “I need Jesus.”
Is that truth or is that belief?
@Bob, even if truth were the *only* problem in the church, the solution is not to do away with truth and embrace only love. That is like saying that, since turning your car only to the left had you driving in circles, you will henceforth only turn it to the right. Do that, and you’ll still be getting nowhere. The problem is not that one or the other is bad or good, but that they are out of balance. We need both, and in proper balance.
The Christian churches have historically focused excessively on truth, on the Law. This has been a huge (but not the only) problem with the churches. Certainly love is needed to help heal that defect. However, abandoning truth – and the search for the truth – is not part of the healing.
The truth that I’m talking about is simple. I’m talking about the everyday facts of life – love and heartbreak and apathy; life and death; sickness and health; gain and loss. These are things we deal with every day. The truth of the peasant, rather than of the philosopher.
You ask, “what is truth?” Good question. I ask, “what is love?” This question is just as simple, and just as difficult, as yours.
Just as with truth, there are times when the answers are difficult. When is it love, and when is it enabling or simply apathy? Is love a feeling or is it action? Who loves me more when I’m hungry: the person filled with loving compassion who smiles as he passes by, or the grumpy guy who hands me a sandwich?
There are times when doing what appears to be the loving thing is the worst thing we can do to someone. If we don’t know this – if we don’t know the truth about it – then our love is toxic.
We will never know the truth perfectly, and we will never express our love perfectly. We need to work on both. We shouldn’t expect to get it right; but we should never stop trying to get it right.
Baruch60610, did I completely misunderstand your earlier comment? I assumed that the “truth” you were talking about in your statement – “I think that love is only half the story. Truth is also important.” was “biblical truth”, or doctrinal truth.
You said – “The truth that I’m talking about is simple. I’m talking about the everyday facts of life – love and heartbreak and apathy; life and death; sickness and health; gain and loss. These are things we deal with every day. The truth of the peasant, rather than of the philosopher.”
If this is the “truth” you were talking about, then I don’t believe I have any disagreement with your initial comment that I quoted. My apologies for my long-winded response.