A few weeks ago I ordered Lonnie Frisbee: The Life and Death of a Hippie Preacher. It arrived yesterday and I watched it last night. I don’t want to discuss the technical aspects of the film at all. I want to address its message.
Beginning in the Jesus Movement in the early 60′s, Lonnie became very influential in the beginning success of Chuck Smith’s Calvary Chapel movement, as well as John Wimber’s Vineyard movement, of which I am a part. After a long season with a powerful impact on the church, he was exposed as gay. Then he was methodically removed from visibility. He was eventually fired. Then rejected and ostracized. And now he is effectively written out of the histories of both of these movements. He died of AIDS in 1993 at the age of 43.
What more can be said? I realize that this documentary in many ways is sympathetic to Lonnie Frisbee and critical of those who rejected him. However, this has been my observation about the church as well. It is no surprise. It is disturbing but predictable. What more can be said? The documentary provoked today’s cartoon.
But one of the things this video left me with was the very real fact that even though the Vineyard has written him out of our history, he is a part of our foundational roots. The issue of being gay in the church is a very real issue today, one I wish to address and deal with, and this video suggested to me that the Vineyard might be one of the places to do this well.
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artist. cartoonist. teacher.
heteronormative comes out of gay and queer theology. I think it is a helpful word.
Trey, I think we aren’t that far apart. I think my ultimate view is utopian – where we can live in tension of a variety of positions but still get along without resorting to a sort of relativism that makes it impossible to be critical. And certainly our hearts are that the critical element needs to come squarely on where our ideas and practices damage individuals. Unfortunately, much of what is called love in common Christian practice is really fear and posturing. And I am right there with you fighting that sort of ignorance and abuse.
DD, I have a good friend with a downs child and we got talking about some of the research into downs and autism and there is a sense that there is a evolutionary movement in our species that is going on. Some would say it is an advance even. If they are right then maybe some of how we understand plan A is based on faulty understandings of our species. But isn’t that just the problem you are talking about – we want to institutionalize our interpretations. There is nothing wrong with institutions – provided it still serves the people/community. But when the institution is grinding people underfoot then I think it is right to raise questions. What I feel many Christians miss is the incredible ability of the Christian message to adapt over time and reach into so many different cultural/historical moments.
Utopian… this is the part where I would normally criticize this as an unrealistic ideal… except that I attend Frank’s church.
I came out to our small Vineyard congregation in Ontario just over a year ago now, something that was precipitated by my realization that I was in love with my current partner. The refreshing part of this utopian approach was that I was never told what to do or think; neither that my feelings were sinful, nor that I had to reject that view and accept my sexuality. My experience was of a church that told me, “There’s a debate going on. It’s not black and white,” and gave me just enough insight into these camps that I could do my own research and draw my own conclusions. The only firm position was that, whatever I decided, I would be accepted, and so would my choice.
They say you don’t get a choice in being gay. For the vast majority, that is likely true. Fortunately, I was one among few who got a free, genuine, pressure-free choice about my response to being gay. To get that in the church was a gift I am thankful for every day.
My partner moved to our city a few months later and began attending the church with me. We continue to be very happy there and are full participating members of the congregation. I am involved in ministry, leading worship every other week, and have never felt that my orientation was an issue in my involvement in this loving and accepting group.
Outside of this small group, it is, sadly, a very different story. But I believe we have an example of what acceptance could look like. Even within our congregation, there are those who believe same-sex sex is a sin, and others firmly opposed to that view, and still others in between or still undecided. I feel accepted by them all and no one has questioned whether I belonged there or challenged to what extent I could participate. I believe those with differing views also feel accepted, and do not feel ostracized or accused of intolerance for their beliefs. Sometimes we side-step the issue, but there have also been frank and honest conversations on the topics, and even some degree of understanding between those with radically different views.
I cannot express how blessed I feel that I was a member of this group when I began to accept my orientation. For myself and my partner (who I met many years ago in a fundamentalist church), our Christian faith has been too important in our lives, and in our friendship, to have been abandoned. I do not know how we would have faced being abandoned by those with whom we shared that faith.
I believe the Vineyard has allowed our congregation to explore this possibility. It is that freedom that I see as the Vineyard’s strength as an organization; that it can accept diversity. This may indeed make the Vineyard a place where the question of being gay in the church can be explored, and explored well.
Christine: Thanks so much for your beautiful comment. It is a testimony to true community.
I really did appreciate that testimony, Christine. My question is this…and you’ll see some of my vulnerability here, but I’ll share it anyways. Since you are in love with your partner, you know that what you two share together is exceptional and beautiful. If you’re like me you may tear up a bit thinking about it…full of gratitude for what God has blessed you with. How then, knowing how beautiful what you share is…knowing it is a gift from God, are you able to effectively participate in a congregation where others view this most intimate part of you as sin?
Can I jump in here.
If community is about all of us agreeing to believe the same thing then is it really community? Christine came out long after we had gotten to know her and her heart for God. Much as I would like to think otherwise, it would probably have been harder on people if she initially came to our church in a same-sex relationship. In a sense her coming out in our congregation has been a gift to us in that it allowed us to also have our own difficult transition. We had talked about the inclusion of homosexuals before, but without someone brave enough to journey with us like that, it still remained very much theoretical. And people have a tremendous tolerance (ability to hold opposite ideas in tension) when they feel community.
Also as pastor, I bet I hear more of the different sides of this than Christine does. But, as with all of the people in Freedom, I always try to walk through with the person sharing what are their concerns and how is it something they are struggling with and that they should not project that onto others. It is one thing to believe homosexual relationships are sinful (I’m sure though that it is really more the sexual component that has people uncomfortable) and another thing to try and project that value on another. Holding a view is not the same thing as imposing that view on others – that is the mistake we made in colonizing Africa with missionaries. One of the things I do is direct those people to prayer – pray that God will change the situation but don’t assume that how that is answered is going to be an imposition of what you think needs to happen. Give room for God to be God.
And the frank part of it is that those who can’t live in that tension will leave. What makes my heart glad though is that we actually have a good number of people who are wrestling with this and are staying. That gives me hope. If you ask them they have no trouble articulating where they are at. No one is telling them to hide their beliefs. But often what I’m hearing is that while they have strong convictions, they also feel that they need to extend grace. I feel very blessed to be part of this community.
Just to be clear about one things Christine said though – the Vineyard really hasn’t had a choice. I’ve only really come out recently that we are walking this out as a congregation. I think there is a lot of grace there, but I am sure it is not going to be welcomed by all the pastors. I might get away with it because folks know me, know my heart and also know that I gravitate to working with groups that most churches don’t even want to know how to walk with.
This is a personal struggle of mine. I’m interested in how Christine has dealt with it. I have several gay Christian friends that attend accepting churches, but where the leaders and some in the congregation still hold to a belief that they are sinful for “practicing” their sexuality. I’ve asked some of them this same question and their response for the most part has just been avoidance…they get a bit uncomfortable and just kinda sweep it under the rug. I have a difficult time doing that. My sister, for instance, a Southern Baptist, told me shortly after I came out to her that if I didn’t repent I would go to hell. I fear that her belief has done irreparable harm to our relationship. She puts on a smile around me now and says she loves me…even attended a conference on how to “love your gay friends and family without compromising your faith” (what a crock). I don’t want to spend time with her. Why would I want to hang around someone who feels that what I share with my partner is sinful? That’s hurtful to me because it is an affront to who I am at my core. I do not feel accepted by those who hold to this viewpoint because they do not accept this vital part of my identity. I’m interested in how Christine and other Christian gays and lesbians are able to feel accepted by people who believe their relationships are sinful. I admit my ignorance here…I’m not stating anything, I really want to know. Also, if there are any gay republicans reading this…please explain to me how that works, too
Thanks, Frank. And yes, perhaps I wasn’t so clear about the Vineyard. I think the fact that we can have such a congregation in the first place, the type of group we have, is very encouraging, and one of the clear benefits of the Vineyard. It makes this initiative possible, but the initiative itself is not necessarily accepted.
Trey – A question I anticipated getting. Not to say that it isn’t challenging sometimes, strange and awkward even, but I think there is a lot of give and take going on.
“How then, knowing how beautiful what you share is…knowing it is a gift from God, are you able to effectively participate in a congregation where others view this most intimate part of you as sin?”
While I face this difficulty, I try to put myself in the shoes of those who would call my relationship sinful (given my own background, not a remarkably difficult thing to so). If (and when) I believed that, I doubt I could have accepted having someone in ministry in my congregation that I believed was living a lie, accepting something sinful as a central part of their lives and identity. I think it takes a lot of compassion for those in my church who disagree with me to accept me. In fact, I am amazed by it. How would I be any better if I could not respect them for that courage and for a position I once myself held?
I think the difference is the way in which they (seem to) accept me:
- Neither my relationship nor my orientation is reduced simply to a sinful behaviour. That I believe I am gay, that being gay is a real part of my experience as a person and not something I can simply walk away from, seems to be acknowledged. Opinions would vary on why this is so, and what I should do about it, but not that it is. Neither is the reality of my relationship denied, nor the love my partner and I have for each other. This in itself is very liberating.
- There is a sense that we are all seeking God together, all trying to determine what he wants for us, and all making mistakes along the way. I’ve been told that, when I’m ready, I’ll see God’s way for me. But not in a condesending way, in a way that says “I’m waiting for my answers too, maybe those answers you’ve already received and we can learn from each other.” I don’t feel that my relationship with God or the depth of my faith is questioned because of my orientation. I do not feel condemned.
- I don’t feel stereotyped. I am accepted for me, with being gay seen as only one aspect of who I am.
- I am free to express my beliefs. I can say freely that I believe that my relationship is beautiful, a gift from God, that I believe I am doing the right thing. The fact that I believe it is accepted and acknowledged, even if others believe differently. My beliefs are respected.
I should clarify that no one really says these things, and I doubt very much they make a conscious effort to project them. It is how I *feel* about how people treat me in our congregation, how their acceptance appears to me. It is more how they treat me than what they think. But it shows me their heart, how they feel about me, even if our theologies would find little common ground. They love me, genuinely, truly, and I them for their generous hearts. How then could we not want to be in community together?
It helps though, too, that I am not alone on the issue in my congregation. There are as many who would never call my relationship sinful who have been a great source of support and are simpathetic to my frustrations.
I marvel at the idea of “gay churches”. I actually heard the term “mixed congregation” recently to refer to a church where both gay and straight people attend. That kind of segregation seems very dangerous, isolating. Nor would I want to be cut off from the broader church community, only able to fellowship with those with whom I shared one particular belief because of my orientation. That would not be a marked improvement. It is our differences that strengthen us, and our ability to find commonalities through our differences that show us the love of God. I only wish the broader church community had the same love and acceptance for me as all of those in my congregation.
I too liked Christine’s post and the ones following.
My question has always been, why are we getting so bent on sexual stuff and making sure that we raise a voice any time we see that going on while we scuttle other things that are just as problematic. The answer, for me, is social stigma (or stigmata, as it were…).
However…what happens when Christine wishes to teach Sunday School or become more and more involved in the life of the church in a leadership position?
I think you will find that part of the ostracization has nothing to do with whether or not pastors or church members will allow participating homosexuals to attend their churches. I mean, what pastor is going to turn down potential offering? (Hee hee…). But they are very hesitant when those people then wish to take leadership roles.
Part of me wants to say that every person that takes a leadership role is struggling with something, and most often those things are hidden from sight. The other part of me also knows that if you do believe by Scripture, tradition and your own internal barometer that homosexuality is a sin (let’s say), then you are not going to wish to give the thumbs up to someone being on staff who is openly living that lifestyle. The argument being, that to allow such a person who is openly advocating something that the Church has historical deemed a “sin”…you get the point.
And thus, the great Catch-22…if you raise objections, you are perhaps guilty of non-inclusivity, stubbornness and/or intolerance. If you are too accommodating, you are perhaps guilty of compromise, moral relavitism and/or opening the door to slippery-slopeism (as much as I hate that framework).
Oh what fun it is to ride…in the 21st century…
dd
DD, as Christine’s pastor. I have thought about this a lot. For me it is a justice issue. I don’t think we can have two classes of people in our congregation – those who can serve/lead and those who can merely attend. Actually Christine leads worship in one of our groups and is organizing a monthly pub-theology night for us. She’s as active in leadership as anyone else – probably more so than most.
I think you are right that we have to realize all of us are dealing with something. If Christine were living a promiscuous lifestyle (straight or gay) I would hesitate on having her lead. But she is a person of good character, loves God and is growing in her ability to lead corporate worship. And personally I am not sold that homosexual love is sinful (nor a healthy sexuality in any committed relationship).
The other side of leadership is that it is congregationally appointed. If it was a serious problem for folks, being able to worship when Christine is leading, then the group would fall apart. But in our case we have a value of all hands on deck – allowing you to participate as fully as you desire believing that God meets you in this. This is messy but it reminds me a lot of Jesus’ table fellowship. Think about who Jesus let look after the money.
But, having said that, I would be a bit reluctant to just take Christine along to lead worship when I’m ministering in another church. Not because I don’t think she’d do a great job, but because she is going to potentially be a stumbling block. If they knew her and invited her to come with me, by all means. But I can’t impose our freedom as a stumbling block for others (didn’t Paul have similar concerns?) My one fear about coming out as a pastor with gay leaders is that folks will assume I have an agenda to make all churches like mine. While, I might dream that we will one day overcome this form of racism – that isn’t the reality we live in. Also, I am a bit protective of this couple not wanting to open them up to how hurtful well-meaning Christians can be.
In short, I think I by-passed that catch-22 congregationally, but it still is the heternormative reality we face with the rest of the church.
Frank, I found your last post to be offensive, even though I know you didn’t intend it that way
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“This is messy but it reminds me a lot of Jesus’ table fellowship. Think about who Jesus let look after the money.” This reads as though you are comparing the homosexual minister/leader to Judas. Not that Judas was inherently a bad person, but he didn’t fully understand the purpose of the Christ…he didn’t “get” the whole picture. There are a lot of “accepting” Christians who think, as Christine posted earlier, that eventually we gays will “see God’s way for [us]“, i.e., eventually we’ll see that God has a better way for us than to be practicing gays and lesbians. I don’t want to be a part of a community who thinks that way and I would argue that most gays and lesbians have this same viewpoint.
“But, having said that, I would be a bit reluctant to just take Christine along to lead worship when I’m ministering in another church. Not because I don’t think she’d do a great job, but because she is going to potentially be a stumbling block. If they knew her and invited her to come with me, by all means. But I can’t impose our freedom as a stumbling block for others (didn’t Paul have similar concerns?)” A lot of gay Christians would find this very offensive. Let me explain. Christine is not sinful by being gay and people who think that *should* have a stumbling block put in their way…and you are in a unique position to do that. Why do you care if people fear you have an agenda when that agenda is peace and reconciliation? What if Jesus withheld certain actions because He feared those darn pharisees might think He has an agenda to include the gentiles into the fold of God? I know Paul said don’t let your freedom be a stumbling block to “weaker” Christians…but he was talking about eating certain foods and celebrating holidays…we’re talking about people… about rejection, exclusion, prejudice, and phobia directed towards God’s children. Stuff that leads to internalized shame, guilt, self-hatred…*suicide*. I guess I just think that some things are worth pissing folks off over. Now, this is just a perspective…I have thick skin and get over stuff quickly, so just because I say I found something offensive doesn’t mean I took it personally. You have by no means personally upset me…I just want to share this perspective with you and get your feedback.
I guess… I guess I’m just ready to compromise, to “accept”, for lack of a better word, positions that I would disagree with, even find offensive. Because I know I am not the only one being pushed out of my comfort zone, and I don’t expect others to take on all of the challenge and not to take on any myself.
This is the price of living together in community. I think it’s worth it. Freedom Vineyard is my home, my community. The people there are my brothers and sisters in Christ, my dear friends. I couldn’t simply stop wanting to be with that community. They are my family. Even if positions were far more polarized, I would want to try to work it out, to come to a place where we could be together, than to sever those relationships. This will not always be possible, but where it is, I intend to take advantage.
I think it will be far more advantageous to have the opportunity to let my life speak for itself. To have an opportunity to share my understanding of being gay and of being gay and Christian with those that would not normally have listened, because I listened to them and accepted their positions. Far more advantageous than to push my belief on others.
I guess I’m somewhat less confrontational, less comfortable with pissing people off. I think that’s both good and bad. In the end, it will take many different approaches to allow homosexuality to be accepted within the church. I don’t think there a “right way” to do it.
In the meantime, I do derive great personal and spiritual benefit from remaining in a community which is challenging due to its range of views and opinion. Sometimes in spite of those differences, sometimes because of them.
But I am not recommending it. Not because it wouldn’t be beneficial to most, but because I don’t think most church congregations are at this point. Although there are those in my congregation that believe my relationship is sinful, the dynamic is a far cry from other environments I have experienced. The acceptance that allows us to hold those views and remain a community simply does not exist in the midst of most Christians. A sad fact. Although the stated beliefs might be similar, there is no comparison between what I have experienced in my current church and what I know is out there. In truth I feel sheltered from discrimination at my church.
Hard to understand. Hard for me even to understand. That’s part of the tension. But there is something wonderful and Christian in it, that we wrestle with it together as a community. For that, I’m willing to be humble.
You are right my intention isn’t to be offensive. On the first point I was really trying to get at the fact that Jesus surrounded himself with the kind of people that usually didn’t get a fair hearing, and that Jesus trusted them with important roles in the community even when they were complete douchebags. So if Jesus can do that then why do we restrict participation for things that you and I can agree are not sinful? I wasn’t trying to compare homosexuals to Judas, rather showing the extent of Christ’s open table. And the fact that we restrict it. BTW I do not endorse an attitude of homosexuals just haven’t gotten it yet, that is simply the way one individual (that I know of) has chosen to express his place in the tension. And it comes out of a frank discussion that happened within our community – I don’t think he just volunteered that out of the blue. But I could be mistaken as I walked into the middle of that conversation one night.
I knew I was treading into hard waters with the second one. I think we disagree on the role of stumbling blocks and the role of communities. Let me compare this to the Roman Catholic Eucharist. See I believe what happens there, but out of respect for their tradition I only approach with crossed arms so as to receive a blessing. To do otherwise is an affront to their tradition. However, I am quite vocal about how this is not a good tradition. But there is a tension here that I feel a need to respect. One one hand we aren’t all there yet. And on the other hand we have to bring attention to the distance between our views if we are going to find workable solutions. I know Christine is out. I would never ask her to pretend otherwise. So I would not put her in a position where she might feel the need to pretend to be straight to avoid causing others to stumble. The reality is that many churches couldn’t handle that – it sucks and it is wrong but it is an honest starting place. If I bulldoze my way in there I lose the ability to speak creatively and restoratively into the situation. I prefer to push around the edges. I am fairly good at testing the waters and seeing if I can move it a bit further towards something healthy. It will take time. What we should be encouraged with is that it is actually starting to pick up momentum.
You have every right to be offended. You can’t see my heart. I think it would change the way you saw my thinking on this. End of the day I might be completely wrong on this. But I might also be completely wrong about homosexuality too. I accept that risk and trust God as I try to build the best way I know how. Slowly, deliberately. Picking fights that will make a difference and trying desperately to not get into fights that I think will set us back years.
I have often compared the struggle for homosexual emancipation to the abolition of slavery. That took people to first become aware of how their interpretation of scripture continued a practice that destroyed the lives of people. This will take the same sort of base energy. And I’m not convinced that a more frontal assault will help. I seem to read that you feel differently. I would encourage you to think long term, fight hard – but fight smart, and celebrate the victories. If this is going to change in the church it will take a lot of leaders brave enough to look at people first and willing to leave the 99 to save the 1.
If I may jump in here, I’d love to share my perspective on being in community with people who believe that this incredibly beautiful relationship that I view as nothing short of a precious gift from God is or may be sinful. I’m Christine’s partner and thus the other gay member of Frank’s congregation. Largely I would echo what Christine has already said about the way in which we feel accepted within our community, but if you’ll bear with me for a little bit, I’d like to attempt to explain to Trey in particular what I see as the difference between this type of acceptance and the attitude of the many Christians who view homosexuality as sinful such as what you have encountered with your sister.
I am in the position of living both sides of the acceptance equation. Being blessed to be a part of Freedom Vineyard, I have experienced what I would defend any day as true acceptance despite different levels of understanding and even clear disagreement on what is sinful and what is not. But I also come from a very conservative family and am all too familiar with the sting of rejection that comes with the, “I love you because you’re family but you aren’t really one of us and are heading straight to hell, do not pass go, do not collect $200 attitude.” I have long since lost count of the number of times my father has told me that I am going to hell or have spit in the face of God while my mother sits there sobbing and nodding in agreement, since I came out to them just a little over a year ago. And while my brothers and their wives tend to avoid talking about it for the most part, their feelings on the matter are clearly pretty much the same. Thus I understand your frustration of not wanting to be around your sister knowing that she does not accept you for who you are. I have struggled with this a great deal as I want very much to maintain a close relationship with my family but find myself growing increasingly distant because it is just too painful to be close to people that I love dearly but feel completely rejected by for something that I have come to recognize as a core part of who I am and how I view myself and the world around me. I have good reason to believe that this issue goes deeper than merely what is or isn’t sinful, particularly for my parents, and also includes a healthy helping of irrational prejudice. Perhaps if it were only one or the other I could maintain hope that we might one day get around this, but as it is, the one feeds off the other and I find it extremely difficult to hold out any hope that things might improve over time.
I guess then, to understand how I personally am able to live comfortably in community with a group of people which includes those that would see my relationship as being sinful, it helps to understand the stark contrast between the way in which this belief plays out in our community and the way in which I have to deal with this belief within my other family if I may. Within our congregation I have never gotten a sense (much less been told directly) that I am freely rebelling against God because of my relationship. There is at least an acceptance of the sincerity of where I am at which I do not get with my family. And I think that is an important key, perhaps both ways. For me, I think it is very important that I feel that I am accepted as an honest and sincere person with a desire to please God, even if people believe I am misguided. And for them, I suspect (clearly this is pure speculation on my part) that their ability to see me as sincere allows for a degree of acceptance that would not otherwise be possible for those that believe that what I am doing is wrong. If we were to look at this acceptance on another issue not as polarizing as homosexuality, I think we would all see that to live in any sort of close community with other believers requires a certain amount of acceptance that we are each responsible for working out our own beliefs with God and coming to our own levels of understanding on so many issues that our beliefs will vary on greatly and will even vary on the importance attributed to any individual belief. I think there is a certain amount of humility demonstrated in being able to live in true community with people with beliefs and viewpoints that can be at times in stark contradiction to your own. I think that on some level that requires an admission on our part that there is at least the possibility that we may be the one that has it wrong. I personally can confidently say that I have only quite recently grown to the point where I am capable of living out that kind of community, and that kind of humility.
It was only through a lengthy process (completely separate from the issue of my accepting that I was gay, though it eventually influenced and allowed for such acceptance) over a number of years and dealing with multiple issues where I began to realize that views that I held to quite strongly were not legitimately supportable by any reasonable standard of biblical interpretation, that formed in me the ability to truly respect other viewpoints. I can say quite honestly that I am entirely sure that had I come to Freedom a few years earlier, I would have been among those that would have been incapable of living in the tension that Frank talks about. I would not have been able to accept the kind of community that I now find myself so immensely grateful for. So I find that I have nothing but the utmost respect for those within our community that believe that my relationship is sinful and yet are capable of living in that tension and accepting me in spite of such a blatant affront to what they believe. How could I not afford them the same acceptance? I am honoured to keep company with such people and have already learned much from them and I am quite sure have much more to learn.
Christine, I can respect that, and I’m sure you can respect that there are those out there who are not ready to give up their seat on the bus. Maybe a little bit of our differences are explained by the fact that you are in Ontario, Canada and I am in Alabama. Not only can I not marry my partner, but I can be evicted and fired for being gay in this state and there are no hate crime laws on the books in this state protecting gays and lesbians (and until October 28, 2009 there were none on a federal level either).
On the flip side, I am glad that there are those out there such as yourself who are affecting people in a different way…changing one heart at a time
. Lol, it reminds me of WEB Dubois and Booker T Washington.
“This is the price of living together in community. I think it’s worth it. Freedom Vineyard is my home, my community. The people there are my brothers and sisters in Christ, my dear friends. I couldn’t simply stop wanting to be with that community. They are my family. Even if positions were far more polarized, I would want to try to work it out, to come to a place where we could be together, than to sever those relationships” I thought this was very beautiful and it reminded me of this past Christmas with my family (the first since I had come out and faced their rejection). Thanks for sharing that.
“If this is going to change in the church it will take a lot of leaders brave enough to look at people first and willing to leave the 99 to save the 1.”
Absolutely.
Trey – Thanks for the kind words. I think my relationship with my church is much like that of many with their families who struggle honestly with the issue.
And I think you are absolutely right about where I live affecting my position. The church is the only place left, the only place I have ever personally, faced descrimination for being gay. I have full rights and protection, in housing, in my job, am fulling excepted in society at large, can get married and have children… The list goes on.
If church is the only place I have to face descriminating attitudes, it makes it much easier. And easier not to feel marginalized or oppressed by those opinions, because they are not the prevailing ones in the society around me. I can end this post, and go back to the “real world” around me where no one thinks homosexuality is wrong, and would fight tooth and nail for my rights. Those who argue homosexuality is a sin honestly look absurd in my context.
So, I’m not forced to give up by “seat on the bus.” This means I can simply brush off the person telling me to move to the back. I’m not risking anything in doing so.
Where I am, the church is “the last frontier”, and I think that is more than enough to make our approaches different. And I am always surprised at just how bad things are in America. I think I would feel differently in your position.
Isn’t it too bad that traditionally the church has always been the last frontier? I think it’s sad really. I think many of us will look back decades from now and wish we had done more for the rights of gays when they were struggling for equality. I know I have dreamed about what it would have been like to stage a “sit in” or walk that walk (just an hour south of here) from Selma to Montgomery. Even today, the most segregated place in Alabama is any given church on any given Sunday.
One time not too long ago when talking to my grandmother about church, she told me that some blacks had visited her white mega church in Tuscaloosa. “We just love ‘em out” she said, (i.e. we love them so much that they want to leave). I never got that until I came out…and found myself on the opposite end of the “love the sinner, hate the sin” message. What my grandmother and her compatriots showed was anything but love…and when we say we love the gay or lesbian but yet we think that there is something sinful about their identity…well, it’s kinda like that “love” my mimi showed those black visitors.
Hey everyone. NP here. I want to personally congratulate you all on a very fine dialog. This is what can happen when we prefer love over certainty. I’m enjoying the interchange. Sorry I can’t interject as much as I’d like. Kudos!
Cindy, thanks for explaining. I think that is the first time someone has answered my question in such a way where I was able to grasp it. Most of the time when people would answer that question their answer either wasn’t clear or it reflected some sort of internalized homophobia that still existed within them…something that I think all us gay ex-fundamentalists have to watch out for. I could even see myself one day coming to that place where you and Christine find yourself. However, I still think I would have a hard time attending a church where I felt uncomfortable holding my partner’s hand or where the pastor couldn’t perform a marriage or commitment ceremony. To me it is clear that believing loving committed homosexual relationships are a sin is prejudice…just as when Biblical interpretation (influenced by social stigma and prejudice) was used to discriminate against women and racial minorities. I can deal with that from a distance but since I find it degrading, I would have a hard time being in community with people who believe that way. Having said that, I do find myself in a couple of communities where there of plenty of people with differing views…just not on something as integral a part of me as my sexuality. But, I get it…I see what you’re saying and it makes sense.
You, Christine, and Frank have all said that being part of your community means admitting that you may be wrong on the gay issue. I don’t get that. Do you think there is even the remotest possibility that what you share with Christine is sinful and rejected by God?
What a powerful discussion. While I commend Christine and any other person who gives their best to hold onto and live a life of faith and be involved in a Christian community, I still wonder when the straw will break the camel’s back. I am not gay but this is one of the main issues that led me to leave or what I call “wake up” from a distorted, blind faith in written words that were unfortunately twisted and labeled to be God. I think if Jesus were alive today (literally…I know to Christians he is alive) he would have so much to say and clarify about the tragedies that have unfolded out of this organized religion. Growing up a true, on fire Christian, it was only when I tearfully and joyfully realized the maginitude of the love of God (in the Bible) that I was forced to face the exclusion and contradictions that were woven into the very foundations of this faith. This isn’t even exclusively a homosexual issue, there are many topics that reach this fundamental paradox.
I can speak for my wife of 7 years, because we have spent years searching this out…and for myself when I say that the greatest moment of our lives, was when we had a our first born son 5 years ago…and the moment we saw his eyes…we woke up. Some would refer to God, Love, our own divine self, but whatever you want to label it… it woke us up. We woke up to life free from guilt, free from exclusions, free from hypocrisy, free from hate. I am mostly referring not to what was done to us, but what we had done to others. All in the name of sincere belief. I was an almost unavoidable result of pain and the distorted self image of who we were to our creator that we would project it on others. I truly believe the most damaging thing that was taught to us through the Bible and was delivered to me at the ripe age of 5… was there is none good, no not one. That our hearts were empty of good…we had not the capability of being good…it was all about finding, chosing and believing in Jesus. That is the beginning to the slippery slope that all Christians ride. A constant struggle to now love and reflect a God, who created you with defect. This is the same God that I regretably believed actually burns people for all of eternity??? Someone a Christian holds onto “justice” and God being “perfect” to justify punishment without purpose? Punishment without purpose is madness. How in the world does one believe in this torture and it being righteous? How can one love God in that belief, and love others in that belief…How can you love anyone when you don’t love yourself?
The real truth is you can’t. You can only attempt to do so..and sometimes in a divine intervention of LOVE…you can come close or catch a glimpse. When I see a beautiful human being express and live a life of love, selfishly giving to others without any return on the investment, when I am around that person and their presence is so strong and their love is so real that my heart and soul can’t help but cry tears of joy…and when I find out they do not “know” or “believe” in the God of the Bible and it’s exclusive nature… it’s like I am looking at my newborn son again. Untainted and pure for just a moment. I see God! I see his kingdom! I see me! I see you! I see the entire world as it really is! When you see beyond the physical, you see beyond the dream…you see home!
I am so grateful for my upbringing, even though it was full of pain and distorted lies that resulted in more pain. I am grateful and thankful for every teacher and every pastor, for my parents and for my friends. Every sinlge one played a role in delivering what I needed to work through and overcome..to become the person I am supposed to be.
Back to the topic, I truly hope that each Christian and non-Christian alike, will lay down the wall and fear that has been placed in your hearts and minds. Why we were taught and why some do teach that love and attraction to the same sex is a wrong and sinful is so puzzling? I don’t know why we swallow that so easily? I don’t think I will have that answer in this lifetime, but I do know without a shadow of a doubt…that this tragic lie has hurt more than it has helped by a million to one. If you think your belief of this as “sin” is helping anyone…please think again. If you want to help someone not catch a disease…help them be responsible and choose love before sex. You don’t need to tell them their attraction and identity is ugly and sinful? I don’t know what other reason people really have in holding this view? It’s always sex and disease that is brought up. What else are we afraid of…if it’s God…then you need to evaluate much more than homosexuality.
I hope that the straight and homosexual community will realize and teach one another about the danger in promiscuity, not only the phyiscal consequences, but the mental and spiritual as well…and let that be the warning of our Love. I hope the Church and non-church will continue to teach their children and fellow people to live wisely and righteously…but to teach it in love. This is a valid issue and one to pay close attention to.
But the next time you see a gay or lesbian person and think to yourself, “They are sinful, they are lost, they are wrong, or they are an abomination…” understand that you may very well be speaking about your own partner, your own child, your own parent or brother or sister…and you don’t even know it yet! And if that transpires in your life…you will change!
Please know that when you belive this way, you are of a belief that produces hatred and division amongst humanity and once you wake up from this fearful belief you will experience freedom and love like no other. And you will now be prepared to process and experience the effects of your previous belief and reap what you have sown…it is hard and difficult to face the hurt you can cause, the ramifications of the hate you can spread. You didn’t even realize that it was hate that was inside of you. It wasn’t intentional…but it still was there. That’s why Jesus said, “forgive them for they know not what they do!”
It is only once you free yourself from this limiting belief system…that you can forgive yourself and work to heal the small children that you hurt. Because all of the adults that we hurt and belittle for their orientation…it is the small child inside of them that suffers. I want to heal those wounds…I want to work with anyone else who is willing…to heal those wounds. You can’t heal those wounds unless you stop believing and telling people that their love and attraction is sinful.
Healing the wounds I have caused and sometimes the one’s others have caused is my only religion…and it is completely void of a mythical eternity in fire, or suffering, or absolute confinement from God, love or happiness. That doesn’t work and it needs to removed from the hearts of every person. So if you want to heal wounds, stop carrying your cross and start picking up people…you are welcome to join my family. You don’t need to show up to a building once a week, or support me or anyone with tithes…just love each and every person you come into contact with…trust me… your Church will spread like wildfire.
Peace and love to every person here!
Trey, I think that we have is a healthy suspicion of certainty. However, we also have a confidence that God will lead us as we endeavor to faithfully pursue God. For me personally this comes out of my experience of God pursuing me and drawing me in. (I recently had a dream where I relived a lot of the moments where God had refused to give up on me, it was humbling.) I think there is always the possibility that I am wrong, that is the tension we are invited to live in. I think that we are the ones who elevate the issue to almost salvific proportions, I am certain that sexual orientation does not save a person. That said, it would be a petty God who required the impossible from us – that we do nothing except by certainty. For me certainty is too often a trick, an illusion, a way we manipulate ourselves because we find the other option(s) too unbearable.
This penchant for certainty comes from the foundation of enlightenment society – we can be sure because certainty ensures we are in control of our world. Fortunately that myth has come crashing down – yet, the church that spent so much energy adapting to modernity, has a hard time giving it up. That is why, in Canada at least, the church is one of the last places for these ideas to truly be challenged. What is at stake is an entire hermeneutical framework – the way that folks navigate their reality. Challenges to that are never easy.
Alabama cannot be easy for a GLBT person. I spent some time with an episcopal from Alabama when I was in Chicago last year. A priest turned CFO if I remember right. I found myself glad that I am able to enjoy the freedom of Canada. I think our culture is more geared towards a mosaic and the US more like a melting pot. There are pluses and negatives to both, but it might help explain why Christine and Cindy (aren’t they awesome!) are willing to live with tension.
bless you Trey.
This thread has been a joy to read…blog commenting at its best. No-one hopped in with nastiness or sarcasm….everyone sort of let those that were directly involved have their discussion without dragging it down or into a separate agenda. Perhaps a new higher standard of commenting has been set. It will be interesting to see what the future brings.
Preacherlady, I agree.
Thank you, Lonnie Frisbee.
preacherlady – Thanks.
And I echo Frank’s sentiments about certainty. It’s a general admissible that none of us is infallible, we never get it all right, as opposed to a specific doubt about God’s view of our relationship and orientation. Accepting this fallibility not only makes it easier to respect a view you disagree with, but to have understanding and compassion for the person with the opposing view, since you recognized that we all make mistakes.
Although I think I should clarify something.
“I could even see myself one day coming to that place where you and Christine find yourself. However, I still think I would have a hard time attending a church where I felt uncomfortable holding my partner’s hand or where the pastor couldn’t perform a marriage or commitment ceremony.”
Trey – I would have a very hard time attending a church where Cindy and I weren’t recognized as a couple, treated as a couple, and not only free, but comfortable and even encouraged, to be ourselves, just like any other couple in the church.
And we are. I imagine it makes some others (although a minority) uncomfortable from time to time, but I don’t know for sure. No one’s ever lets me see it or has expressed it to me in any way. I can lead worship and then sit with my partner, hold her hand during the rest of the service and no one blinks an eye. If that was so because everyone believed the same thing, that would be pretty awesome. That it happens despite differences in belief on the subject I think is much more impressive. If anyone was sufficiently uncomfortable with this situation, they would likely leave our congregation. Cindy and I would not change our behaviour, and we would not be expected or asked to.
On the subject of marriage, well, that’s a Vineyard issue, not just one for our congregation. And discrimination in the Vineyard in general is a big issue. That’s actually one of the greatest challenges for me. Our congregation is great, but I am aware that I am not really welcome in the organization to which that congregation belongs. There are things I really like about the Vineyard, too, but without this particular congregation, those things would hardly be enough. So that’s really where the tension is lived out for me. I am pretty comfortable with people disagreeing with me (even with something so personal, but likely because that is because I don’t encounter it often), but to know that my church represents an organization in which I am persecuted is very difficult.
Not that I simply accept the situation in the Vineyard or don’t think it should change, but I haven’t let it push me out of what is a very welcoming congregation. I’d rather continue to attend, to be involved in leadership in my church, and try to contribute slowly, patiently, to change.
Christine knows, or should know, that the situation with the Vineyard is also one close to my heart. For me I love the Vineyard – but one of the things I love is that there is a diversity of views. Part of this is because we are organized around a set of values and not a series of polemical statements. Those values have to do with things like worship, scripture and justice. And those values are interpreted broadly, not specifically (a great example is our commitment to culturally relevant forms of worship – i.e. popular music styles, which vary regionally, are part of how we organize our worship.)
While I see great hope in our movement – this blog is a great example – I also have great moments of disappointment. There is a lot of discrimination that goes unchecked. I try to push around the edges where I can, but I am also careful not to manipulate the situation. David (aka NP) was there when I spoke out amongst Vineyard leaders about how much i valued having Christine and Cindy contribute to our community – for me that was a very scary moment. But one where I realized that this work is more important to me than denomination. That Christine and Cindy have a community where they can grow in their relationship with God – that is something I feel very privileged to have had a hand in.
In terms of whether people are comfortable or not. For me church is not meant to be a place where we are comfortable. It is meant to challenge us and make us grow as human beings. I mentioned already Jesus’ indiscriminate love, I have a hard time imagining everyone around one of his tables was comfortable. In fact quite a few critical remarks are recorded in the gospels. So why should we ever expect anything different from church? Are we not coming there to Jesus’ table? I’m like Christine in that I marvel at the folks who do feel uncomfortable with their relationship – but are willing to sit with that discomfort and let God speak to them.
Thanks, Frank. And yes, I do know. It’s one of the things that makes it possible for me to feel completely welcome in our church, to know I’m not alone in feeling there is an injustice here, and that this is something you feel very strongly about and are working on. You make that clear and it’s much appreciated.
Christine (& Cindy), I continue to find the descriptions of your situation to be refreshing and enlightening. Thanks for sharing.
I am surprised that you feel comfortable showing affection for your partner in a community where that display would remind some that you are “living in sin.” But, I think that’s mature on your part. Here in the South, in most places, you have to be on constant guard to not display affection for your partner in public. There are little respites from this, like a local gay-friendly restaurant or some gay-owned businesses…or open and affirming congregations like the one I attend.
I attend a small group of local gay Christians on Sunday nights, most of whom attend a local accepting (but not affirming) Methodist church. They still talk about the “kissing incident” when one of the attendees, a new Christian, kissed his partner in the sanctuary after service…it was a big deal, I guess. That’s not a bad church, I’m sure…but I just don’t want to attend a place where that is frowned upon. I commend that pastor and those members for dealing with, as y’all put it, the tension. From what I gather my friends say they feel accepted there, too (but unlike y’all, they haven’t really been able to put into words why attending a place where people think that being gay is sinful is ok with them). I think, I’m starting to get it, though.
It’s a different world here, really. We always hold hands walking down the street, sit with my arm around her shoulders on the bus, kiss in restaurants. We take ballroom dancing classes together at the local community centre and the instructor is careful to make us comfortable saying “leads and follows” rather than “men and women”. We never wonder if a business is “gay-friendly”. Actually, we live near an area of the city with a lot of rainbow flags and banners in the windows. I thought it was strange they felt they needed to mark their businesses as gay-friendly (since they all are), until I found out that it’s actually to show solidarity with the large gay community living in that area, which is the neighbourhood adjecent to ours (we live in Chinatown). The municipal website actually calls the area the “gaybourhood” and describes it as a local initiative by independent businesses. The only place we wouldn’t feel welcome is the new Pentecostal church across the street (which we actually visited a few times, but that’s another story).
I get the feeling some people think we’re cute (someone actually said as much on the bus the other day). Most people don’t seem to notice, we don’t look out of place.
So it takes a conscious effort to not feel completely natural behaving this way. I don’t think about it in our congregation, although I do in any other church. Just leaving the doors of any other church I feel myself relax, back on friendly turf.
It’s not really about being comfortable I guess. I think the point is we aren’t asked to hide who we are, to tailor our behaviour to match others’ expectations or insecurities. There are the same standards for straight and gay couples. I think that’s very important.
We could visit that Methodist church quite comfortably I think, but would be somewhat self-conscious. It would be hard to consider it “our church” is all, because we would feel less than full members of the congregation.
I don’t think we would fit in at that church Trey. There would be more than one “incident” at least :0)
In answer to the question you asked me earlier (though it’s already been answered a couple of times) I am as sure that God not only approves of but had a hand in arranging this beautiful relationship that I have with Christine as I am of anything. I used to live in a place of absolute certainty, where I wanted more than anything to do everything right. Reflecting back on it now, I can see that while I probably didn’t do a whole lot wrong, I certainly didn’t do much right either as I rarely found enough certainty to act upon. Interestingly enough, as I have learned to let go of that need for absolute certainty, I have become more certain than ever of what really matters. I am more certain than ever that God’s love for me is not dependant upon me figuring everything out and getting everything right. There is a great deal of freedom and peace that comes with that certainty that makes everything else, even such things that reach to the core of my identity, just a little less vital. It’s not that I doubt that I am on the right path, it’s more that I’m confident that God will lead me to make the necessary course adjustments as I continue to grow in Him.
I have to say, I am thoroughly enjoying this discussion. Thanks to everybody who has contributed.
Hey Frank: I love your description, critique and hope of the Vineyard church. I agree with the spirit of what you are saying. Thanks for your generosity and contribution to this discussion.
Hey all – I’m taking a course on human rights today, and our conversation has been really on my heart.
Thanks everyone for some great food for thought.
Hey all – I’m taking a course on human rights today, and our conversation has been really on my heart.
Thanks everyone for some great food for thought