I’m under no illusions about people who have left our community and who I no longer see. People who were friends of mine and aren’t any longer. Or people who, as far as I know, are still friends but who I don’t get together with anymore for whatever reason. Of course, that’s the nature of illusions: you’re not aware of them until they are pointed out. Like blind spots. You can’t see them. Like deception. The nature of deception is that you are deceived.
So I read emails and facebook and through the grapevine find out how great they are doing in their new churches and how wonderful their new pastor is and how happy they are and I always feel sad. Obviously not for them. For me. I do have a jealous bone in my body you know. I’ll be the first to admit it. I compare it to someone who’s spouse has left and found a better man. She’s so happy now. Well… I’m glad she’s happy. Now please don’t tell me any more about it because you’re tearing my heart out! And I suppose the hundreds of people I’ve experienced separation from have the right to be happy and finally find what they’ve always been looking for. But it still hurts that I couldn’t seem to satisfy them and that this community couldn’t provide what they needed. True: I purposefully didn’t supply some of their desires. And I couldn’t give them what they wanted because I wouldn’t. But that’s a whoooooole other story.
Sometimes someone will say to me something like, “If only people understood what you are about, then they would love it and our church would grow!” I always try to balance their view: these people who left aren’t stupid. They left precisely because they did understand what I was about and had major issues with it. I’m not silly enough to believe that if only more people knew about Rothesay Vineyard or me as a pastor or about nakedpastor.com, then there would be growth and success for me, my church and my blog. I’ll never fall for that one. In fact, the opposite is true: many, many people know about Rothesay Vineyard and have forsaken her, about me as a pastor and are offended, and about nakedpastor and abhor it. My problem isn’t that I need publicity. Publicity is my problem! But it’s not really a problem because it isn’t my goal to be famous.
Sometimes I wonder if there’s a dual aspect to Rothesay Vineyard: one is a small core of consistently committed people who will sign with their blood that we are in this together, who believe in it and invest heavily in its welfare; then there is the other group of people who believe in it and love it and call this their church, but who’s commitment is minimal, conditional, intermittent and sometimes even cautious. The thing is, you can never be absolutely sure who’s in which group. Some who I thought were lifers are suddenly gone, and some I thought would be gone a long time ago persevere with us. Those who have patted me on the back and said I’m with you forever are the ones doing that to someone else now. Those who have struggled remain. Go figure! One of my tasks though, I feel, is to be sure they all receive the same unconditional and indiscriminate care.
I live a very strange life. Wouldn’t you agree?
Contributions to nakedpastor are greatly appreciated.
David Hayward is a pastor artistically stripping to the essential.
YES, you do.
Hearing about the ex,
bumping into the ex,
moving on as an ex,
remembering the ex,
wishing there was no such thing as “EX” is difficult.
The fact that we (me too) continue to carry the baggage is strange.
Maybe one day we will find the strength or pure EX-haustion to put it down.
You live through, on a daily basis and a much bigger scale, stuff that has devastated me. When you open up and give love and are rejected for simply who you are. I have NO idea how you do it on such a massive scale, day in and day out. I’ve experienced it with like a few handfuls of people and the end result, that rejection? Knocks the breath right out of me. Still! You? Saint or glutton for punishment? I have no idea. I do admire you tenacity to be yourself regardless of rejection though.
<3
David,
A good read.
You said: Those who have patted me on the back and said I’m with you forever are the ones doing that to someone else now.
——–I’m thinking Jesus was the only one for sure who knew there was a Judas in the bunch. We are like the apostles, “What, what’s going on? Judas, why he is the last guy I ever thought would….”
Judas is probably patting Satan on the back right now—–but Judas would drop him like a hot potatoe in a moment, too.
fishon
Have you considered it from the view that (and I speak this with really no knowledge of what your talent in other areas play into your finances) others within ministry often have merely their present position to provide for ther family and thus have become “trapped” within the institution, “unable” to speak their doubts, their opinions, because it would cost them their job? “Church” is “church”, humanity a huge part of whatever it is wherever it is. I’ve often called it “God’s obstacle course: survive 20 years and you’re ready for heaven”; but, at the same time, I am thankful to have known the experience for nearly four decades and realize that I, myself, have often been part of the problem. To live what we believe, to truthfully speak what we believe as we stagger down the path is always to invite judgment into our experience. I sometimes find myself guilty of asking myself just where you might be in your journey or what you have experienced to think in such manner; but I have never thought you nor your life “strange”. We all have our own pasts, our own stories, and our own current point from where we speak. Your blogs has fed me in many ways, my friend. Let’s lean on Him and each other and take the next step…..
I don’t think you have a strange life at all. I think you are dealing with people. We’re a fickle bunch who say things they mean sincerely at the time, and then change their minds, who are at times committed, at times unreliable, who seem to ‘get’ what community/ life/ faith are about one day and then seem confused by it the next. We hurt each other, we expect too much of each other, we want to forgive but struggle with how to do it. I’ve been in youth ministry full time for 8 years, and have the same brush strokes of experience that you describe, and like jim, I recognise myself and my own contradictions within that too!
Thank the Lord you are a good enough person to care!
I know some pastors who couldn’t care less where or what became of old parishioners. Out of sight, out of mind. (My old pastor, for example is a Facebook “friend” of mine, and I suspect that he has even gone so far as to hide my status updates!)
Strange? No way. At least not for me (but then, I’m a pastor…). Thanks for your honesty, David. I can feel a measure of genuine love even in the “jealous” moments you describe. Although I probably haven’t experienced as many splits as you, I suffer when people leave, especially when they don’t want to or can’t say why.
David, having been through separationmyself, I empathise with your pain. However to carry your ‘marriage’ analogy further..I am sure that people when they first join a church they go through a ‘honeymoom’ period where everything is seen through rose coloured glasses. This period can last for different lenghts of time for different people.
Having never been in a leadership role within a church I am talking solely from a ‘members’ point of view. I have seen too many pastors etc. been put on a pedstal by their congregation. Then when the pastor shows a weakness or ‘failing’ (in their eyes), they become disallusioned and leave. Unfortunately for way too long leadership..priests, ministers, pastors etc. have had unquestioned loyalty and in some cases have demanded it, often with disasterous and horrible consequences. Examples of the worst of this would be Jim Jones and Korach(sp?).
In Ireland recently there have been 2 reports released about the absolutely awful abuse of children and the coverup by the church since the 1950s.
So if people are ‘cautious’ it is no wonder. To be any different is foolishness! The only person you can and should trust unreservedly is Jesus.
Ann B said, on January 7th, 2010 at 6:55 pm
The only person you can and should trust unreservedly is Jesus.
————I understand what you are saying, Ann, but for me, there is one other I trust unreservedly–my wife. I guess 42 yrs. makes that possible.
fishon
Yes David you do, I agree, live a strange life… . It is hard to experience as well.
I like what you said about those who leave and are “ex’s” should have the same “unconditional and indiscriminate care”. Now THAT is hard and requires you being a big person. Having gone through a lot of those experiences of people who were very loyal then leave and become ex’s it is very hard and gets harder each time it happens. Some are good but unsure people, some are floaters who simply do this sort of thing regularly, and others are pure narcissists who may have planned it early on and leave destruction and mistrust behind them.
In the beginning of our church it was fun and so easy to say that because we were all suspicious of Christian institutions and their inevitable corrupting of leadership that we would always make it our goal to give the benefit of the doubt and yield to the wishes of the departing members and not play the power game of manipulating the story from that position. We chose to grant more legitimacy to their right and reasons to leave than ours as a fellowship to have done nothing wrong to them. It was really fun to say, we meant it when we said it and we lived up to it for the most part. But IT WAS HARD AND GOT HARDER. It was extremely hard when those who could be described as pure narcissists pulled their stunts and then left (then to find out they had done it many times before). On their way out they sometimes would have built alliances behind the scenes then play the victim after they left hoping to draw sympathizers after them. They were successful in this more than we thought possible. These experiences were very costly.
Having said that, the rightness or wrongness of their leaving or their methods in leaving or ours in self defense is not as interesting to me any more. What is more interesting to me personally is the cost to myself as their pastor and to see a growing list of “incompatibles” that I have now as ex’s who cross the street if they see me or my wife coming. How much of this could I take? At what point do I cave in from my convictions and play the institutional power game (it seems to succeed in other places)? At what point do I simply shut down emotionally and not even realize it? This last prospect seems to be the most dangerous and the one I seemed to drift in to. Sadly.
What about you?
darrin: that’s the last thing i want to do… shut down emotionally. then i’m done.
David…I can identify with your feelings. People seem to want different things from church and a questioning, growing faith doesn’t seem to be one of them. They want pat answers…they want a pastor who is sure that he/she has those answers…they want programs, and not necessarily programs that render ministry ie. feeding programs or a shawl ministry etc….they want a place where their kids will be amused…they want normal, whatever that is, church…preferably vanilla, or at least plain chocolate…omit the swirls. Their reasons for coming to church include God, but God is not the focus. Vanilla, you’re not…and i am thankful for that…but you have a specialized style, and it only appeals to a certain sort of person, and as much as those who have left are still on you’re mind, what is it that has their attention now? Yes, you poured your heart and soul into them…you gave them counsel that, if they followed, would have put them in a different place…and yet they say that this just isn’t the place for them, and then proceed to tell you all the things they don’t like about you or the church…and it hurts…big time. They decide to give you the CORRECT(their) interpretation of scripture…and of course they havn’t even ever read the bible through once…and still we’re concerned about them. We hear that Bob has fallen off the wagon, Jim has lost yet another job, and Ethel is studying the Abraham material. Where did we go wrong?…we didn’t…if you remember, they all left Jesus. And, what is success in a church? A couple of thousand people in the pews or a few truly transformed lives? But being human, we hurt…we feel inadequate…at that point, its time to look at the pluses. Who in the course of your ministry have you impacted in a positive manner? Who looks to you as a source of wisdom and teaching? There will always be those who leave..remember the 10 lepers? Look at the ones who have stayed, and those who have moved on but who got their foundation from you and acknowledge it. I’m fortunate…I only have to look in my own household. My adopted daughter was 23…weighed 200 lbs…was diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic and an epileptic…today she is of sound mind, hasn’t had a siezure in28 years, is gorgeous…at 51 looks 35…and is studying softwear engineering with a 4.0 average(until she went back to school we thought she was of low average intelligence). When my blog is up I’ll tell her whole story. Its then, when we look at these people that we realize that God is able and we are willing…there are just those who won’t partake of what is offered or they treat it like a spiritual buffet and pick and choose.
Darrin…spotting the narcissists is sometimes difficult at first and by the time we discover that its all about them, we’re well enmeshed in their game. Once we discover what they’re up to, we have to be sure that they are not included in leadership and this can be tricky if they are board members depending how the board is selected. Once they realize that we are no longer going to play their game, they usually leave, and unfortunately leaving as much damage behind as they can. Just give yourself a reality check now and then and you won’t shut down. And think of safeguards you can put in to keep these people out of he spot light, such as a years membership until you can lead a team…start a new ministry etc. Just beware of the “wonderpeople” who come in with such great ideas that before we know it they’re running the place.
Thank you for sharing these thoughts… they are mine. After almost five years in a small church plant, watching people go and treating them like the adults they are as they go is painful. No one seems to understand what it is like for the guy in the front. It’s not fair. It’s just hard.
Ah.
But don’t forget that sometimes, being the ex is hard.
Hearing about the family, how wonderful everything is, the growth, the new people, the fun, the events… and knowing you can’t (and basically don’t want to) go back. But missing the good things.
The church I’m associated appears to have different expectations from members and adherents leaving the church.
Members are to go to the pastoral team and ask for a blessing as they are released from the church into something new, different. While the adherents are free to come and go at will with little expectation that they are there for the long haul.
People who haven’t attended for a while, ususally, get a phone call to see if there is anything the church can do for them … or ask if any of the recent changes is the cause of the lack of attendance.
My question to you and the other pastor’s on the list is … what is the best way to leave a church?
tc…the best way to leave a church, if at all possible,is to thank the pastor for what he/she has done for you, and to ask for prayer. If you are leaving for a specific reason…there is no youth program and you need one…the women’s prayer meeting has disbanded…you want to be in a bigger/smaller congregation…let it be known. Even if the pastor has been a real jerk( that of course would NEVER happen), try to leave in love and peace.
preacherlady,
And if you tried to meet with the pastor on multiple occasions and were refused a meeting (like a friend of mine who worked on staff and was NOT a narcissist) or if you had been shadowed for weeks and your conversations with others were cut off because you had been slapped with the label “rebel” for questioning legalistic and hypocritical behavior (like me) or if your father had died and not one person from the church staff had shown up at the funeral or called to see how your family was doing (like a member who had been a Sunday School teacher and pinch-hitter preacher for several of the pastors on several occasions)? What then?
Even with the spiritual negligence and abuse that permeated that church, the three of us, and many more, attempted to leave that place with love and grace and peace. (But it was DAMN tough… ) I agree with Jenny; being the ex-member is just as difficult and painful as being the ex-pastor.
ttm…I’ve been in those situations, and sometimes its necessary to shake the dust out of your sandals, walk away and lick your wounds because no-one wants to minister to the situation. “Thats too hot an issue…I really don’t want to get involved.” Being an ex-member is just as tough as being the one left. Thats why I said …”if at all possible”. From old line Pentacostal to New Thought, and everything in between. I’ve seen big time abuse. My ministry for the past several years has been to people who have suffered spiritual abuse…and I’m qualified because I’m an abuse survivor. I still see the carnage from a group I was associated with over 30 years ago. I was fortunate…I was able to leave the state and come here and begin a long healing process. Those who stayed back east havn’t really recovered. The gold standard for a church is whether their love is unconditional, whether they feed the poor, clothe the naked etc. Any church that is using a spy system is engaging in gossip…any church thats more interested in cleaning up the outside than cleaning insides…any church where you’re just another butt in a pew that they can count or another person who made the altar call…is a church you need to run from. YOU MATTER…YES YOU…anything in your life that is keeping you from the fullness that is available to you…and I don’t mean that life will be perfect…thats why God said WHEN you go through the fire, not if, He’d be there…is important…and because you are seeking,there should be someone in your church to minister to that need. Now…if you;re just looking for attention, thats another matter, but you deserve to be heard.
It’s strange, now that I take a few minutes to think about it. For years, as a Christian, I saw myself as a pilgrim on a journey. At different points, my path might join up with another’s, and we would journey together (or at least in proximity) for a while. Then the paths would branch. It was sad, sometimes, and I had some regrets, but I expected it. I simply prayed that our paths brought us closer to God, and that I had let the Spirit work through me, and on me, while my path and an other’s coincided. When I became a pastor, though, I spent more time thinking about what might or might not be my responsibility in a diverging path. I took things more personally, and felt more pain.
It didn’t help that at this same time I grew ever less confident that my own path was bringing me towards God.
Reminds me of a common phrase people sometimes use to explain why they parted company: “We grew apart”.
We’re all growing, but at different rates and in different directions. Sometimes we find others who are about where we are, and who accompany us for a while along our path. Neither we nor they know how long this will last – for a day or a lifetime.
In this life, every “hello” is echoed by a “goodbye”. Even if we’re together “’till death do us part”, we’re going to part company. Cherish the time together and know that it will some day end.
Thank you. You allow me to continue to find my “voice” (and sanity) as a pastor.
I was conveniently tuning out everything you were saying – ya know, playing a hiding game even with myself and God, pretending I didn’t have the same feelings you were talking about (no, not me – I’m “happy” for them, glad they’re no longer at our church, glad they’ve found a better fit elsewhere – yeah right!) – until you wrote that last line:
“One of my tasks though, I feel, is to be sure they all receive the same unconditional and indiscriminate care.”
Tuned in.
Thanks.
Buddy, same goes for people who change jobs, move towns, start doing new sports. Human relationships change. This isn’t exclusive to the church environment.
I’m not saying we should be close to people (good-will hunting syndrome), but just that we should accept the temporal nature of most of our relationships. Truth be told, my nuclear family are the only people I’ve known and loved my whole life.
This is why I read you- I may not always agree with you, but your honesty acts like a grenade on hard ground- it opens stuff up.
I am different to you, but as Wayne above says- you allow me to find my sanity and voice as a pastor.
I have felt something of the same- seems to go with the territory…… ideally IMHO we would all join one church that we could walk to and stay with it whilst we live there- that way we would go through honeymoon, maturity, immaturity, can’t stand each other etc and so learn something about seeing Christ in the other.
Consumerism and personal choice have become so much unquestioned parts of our make up that often we lose that as we want to find ’something that fits/’where I sense God leading/that church is bigger/ that church is smaller and more authentic/ that church is not biblical/that church is fundamentalist etc etc’….maybe sticking and sensing Grace is the better way and the Guinness adverstising slogan is true: ‘good things come to those who wait’.
Of course I would say that being a local pastor and I am riven with contradictions myself.
As to comfort- man I feel the same stuff and I don’t know answers. All I remember long ago is watching an international cricketer (I am a Brit) talking on TV long ago- he was injured and his career didn’t become what many thought it would be. The interviewer questioned him on his faith (Brit interviwers are more hostile!) and all he said was something like ‘I don’t know- but being in the centre of God’s puposes is the best place to be’. ……. I’ve often mused on that….pastoring hurts sometimes/a lot…. but maybe that is what comes with the territory and that is part of the calling.
Sorry- that is too long and it is not meant to sound glib. Don’t stop me swearing and shouting though.
Thanks once again for your voice!
Preacherlady: You have no link, so I’m at a loss as to your nationality, but your last entry above gives me reason to believe both your ethnic and ecclesiastical roots are as mine. Born-again into old-time holiness, I spent 30 years (other than a five year stretch with a friend who birthed an inner-city ministry in Cincinnati) “blooming where I was planted”. teaching sunday school, kid’s camp, children’s church, usher, any volunteer task asked to be done. It was always a “family-run” assembly, “independant” from denominational government, and I would tell anybody “still a good church”. Somewhere along the way, though, it went to a televized service, became more tele-evangelistic in its message, and all the all the usual elements of what goes on within any body of people, seeing others get hurt, watching relatives and those with money get preference, etc. got to me. I really stayed longer than I should have, my own hurt beginning to fester. I burnt out, went to another assembly, am happy, but only sit on a back pew and worship. Still visit the old bunch on occasion and participate in two outreaches apart from either church. We all have our own story, from both pulpit and pew, but Christ, for me, is yet the “Healer” in the middle of the briar patch. The only thing “strange” I find in the story is God’s grace over all…..
I think it’s helpful to have someone-a spouse or therapist maybe-to whom you can express anger also. Now I obviously don’t know if you have any anger. Just reading all this reminded me of self-help books where someone said “You need to stop feeling hurt and get mad.” I’m not recommending lashing out at people of course, but just expressing that freely to someone outside of it all who is not invested and is objective-like a secular or even Christian counselor. Just my two cents.
Maybe it’s important to pass thru different stages of dealing with this stuff-hurt, then anger, then thinking more objectively, then continuing but in a better place in your emotions, or making a change of some kind, etc.
One more thing-I think part of the pressure in Christianity is for people to suppress anger if they do feel it, because they have the idea “No, that wouldn’t be right. I must love people and understand and accept, no matter what.” It’s almost like you don’t have a right to simply be human.
Anyway, just some things I’ve learned through stuff I’ve been through. May or may not apply to you, David. I do appreciate your honesty and open-ness with your feelings. It’s always been very scary for me to reveal my true self to others-they might reject me.
These comments have been so very helpful to me as I continue to process what happened before, where I’m at now, and where I might in the future related to “church.” A sincere thank you to anyone and everyone who added a comment to the thread.
Ahh – the old 80/20 rule…I saw it in every church I attended on a regular basis
good to hear from a pastor’s perspective. having left the church, i didn’t stop to think how it would affect the pastoral staff. some, i’m sure, quite welcomed my leave, others, however, may have taken it personally. may have to re-think some things and write some apologies…
Preacherlady, you are right about your comments regarding testing leadership first. Our dilemma was that we didn’t have as much an opportunity for that. The problem was that our church was new and small at the time and the need for basic leadership was pretty strong. It was small and very close knit which began to draw a number of people with no church experience. That set us up to need some leadership that turned out to be very problematic. 3 or 4 individuals and 1 particular couple who caused a lot of damage were friends of ours for years prior. They used that position very effectively to gain a following within and use that as power for control, then left with a wake of damage when it did not go their way. There were red flags and in hindsight I wish I would have paid more attention to them, which of course would have been taken by these people as evidence we were autocratic and controlling.
The experience was a teacher for me but a painful one. In the years since the research we have done have created an observation for me. Churches are one of the most vulnerable associations there are and have very little protection from damaging people and the increasing numbers of sociopathic narcissists in our society who are drawn to them. They instinctively know that the average pastor or church elder would never stoop down to their level of destructiveness and thus have the supreme advantage. (Dr. Martha Stout the Harvard Psychiatrist says 1 in 25 ordinary Americans are bona fide sociopaths. G. Llyod Rediger, the Presbyterian minister and Psychologist estimates 1 in 25 American Pastors have been the target of significant attack from theses people from within the congregation and wiped out of the ministry). I assume the numbers in Canada are similar.
This creates a real dilemma for us. On the one hand we can choose the way of Jesus and avoid all forms of power and control by adopting a people focused ministry that focuses on relationships and not power. We can let ourselves be stripped down to bare human relationship and transparency as the basis for ministry and create this as the policy for every area of the church. This can make us sitting ducks to the narcissistic control freaks who are very effective at manipulating relationships and building a following.
On the other hand, we can rely on organizational power and authority and fall into the trap of limiting free human thought and inquiry, controlling outcomes and people, and relying on group-think to manipulate the beliefs and behaviors of members, and give king like power to pastors, bishops or boards. This is the way most of our Evangelical churches function. It’s the curse of organized religion and the way we probably fall back to because we know how vulnerable the community really is. But what a dilemma.
One year I asked God how we are actually protected when it comes down to it. I haven’t heard back yet.
Darrin,
Your comments were very interesting and make sense. But, as an aside, does God ever save any sociopaths?
Lynn, that is a very good question. I don’t know. The true nature of psychopathy would suggest it is not possible because conscience as we understand it is absent and the self searching and honesty required for conversion is not possible for a sociopath or even for most Cluster ‘B’ personality disorders.
The best I can see it is what I heard from somebody else. With God it is possible and it needs to be left with Him. Meanwhile, one should have no contact with them and avoid them and turn them away (maybe under the Biblical guidance of 2 tim. 3:5?) . But again, the dilemma…. what do we do? Psych tests at the doors of a church?
I think as church leaders we have not been taught at all in the areas of human psychology and instead bought into the “let’s just be super nice to everybody” mentality. I know I have. I remember once having to protect the head pastor of a huge local congregation from an inmate we were about to release. The inmate made contact with the church and the pastor was visiting him and then phoned me to try and facilitate the inmate’s entry to the church upon release. He wanted me to tell the inmate, “we want you to feel welcome at our church”. The particular inmate had once been a youth pastor. During incarceration we often had to house him in a special handling unit for dangerous or destructive inmates. His favorite activity was getting into churches and their youth ministry to recruit teenage girls into his prostitution ring by hooking them on drugs and selling for him.
Funny thing was…. before all this I remember thinking to myself, “this pastor is dumb as a post.”
was going to comment, but Jim and Kayte already covered what I would’ve said…so, back to lurking
Darrin,
To be fair, how about psych tests in church offices and not just at church doors?
There are entire websites devoted to sociopaths and NPD within the pastorate. Google it if you don’t believe me…
ttm, for sure. That is a great idea and should be mandatory, but fair here is not my concern. Just because we have been discussing problematic church attenders does not mean a years worth of postings could take place about church leaders and pastors. I believe Many denominations include psych testing in their screening. At least most bodies screen their clergy (not always effectively). What screening do we have for members? That’s my point, not that their are or not evil clergy or members, but how do we know who is who and how do we protect? Dr. Rediger devotes a chapter to sociopath pastors in his book Clergy Killers.
It seems that both ends, the door and the office of the church, is attractive to destructive people. My point is that we have only recently begun to grapple with the activities of narcissists within the congregation, whereas we’ve been long aware of the abuse of power by clergy and forests of trees have fallen for books devoted to that and many URL addresses are devoted to that for good reason.
It should be pointed out too that most people who leave churches and who are ex’s to the pastor are not evil, narcissistic, or sociopathic. They are normal people who struggle with the relationship between organized religion or power and Christ’s Spirit and grace. They shun us pastors afterwards probably more out of awkwardness and embarrassment than anything else. Often times they were collateral damage in the work of the real troublemakers.
But back to the vulnerability of churches. Think about it for a minute. What other place offers a regular collection of people who gather together publicly for noble purposes and gives wide open access to a social network as the church does? The Shriners or Kiwanis Clubs? The loyal order of waterbuffalo? From the point of view of psychologically disturbed people (who function normally in society for the most part) what an ideal place to target. Where else can you go to get massive amounts of social power and attention with little or no scrutiny because when you go there people feel compelled to shed their worldly dog eat dog senses and become naively nice? It’s a goldmine of opportunity for the narcissist. Psychologists tell us it’s power and especially attention that drives these people. Churches are as vulnerable as a boy scout camp in a vampire forest.
Darrin, I understand your points more clearly now. Thanks for the clarification…
That’s why I was always leery about prayer meetings and caregroups. I wasn’t gonna put all my personal stuff out there for others to gossip about. Not that all people gossip, but MANY do. They are truly NOT on some higher spiritual plain, and you would be foolish to believe they are.
Some in church would never dream of talking about you. There are some good people.
Talking personally with a very trusted friend is different. Anybody can be part of a church, and you have no idea who all these people really are behind their masks of niceness.
And don’t get me started on “prayer requests.”
Sorry to be so negative all the time. I can be positive, too, believe it or not!
jim…There’s no link there because my blog won’t be up until the end of the month and my web site is under reconstruction,,,I was raised a pre vatican II roman catholic…guilt…guilt…guilt…started to have serious questions when I was about 15…the answers were ” because the catholic church says so”…I continued to question thru college. I settled into intellectual agnosticism. Then the CHARIOTS OF THE GODS stuff came out in the early 70’s, so I bought a bible to understand it. In the late 70’s I went through a radical conversion experience and became involved with a teaching ministry with old line pentacostal roots. I was ordained by a pentacostal church. Once I moved to Chicago I became involved in a mega church…pentacostal in origin but leaning more towards the modern charismatic mega role…a lot of the legalism was gone…a mature christian had to go elsewhere for teaching…I soon learned it was all about numbers and the unapproachable pastor’s ego. In there somewhere, I was affiliate staff in two Methodist churches. About 15 years ago I left the pentacostal churches because of the abuse I was seeing…particularly towards women and gays…the last straw was the attitude towards the homeless from at least 4 churches. I now function as an interfaith minister and deal with people who have been hurt by churches…particularly those who have wandered into some strange places. This only scratches the surface.
Darrin…a little over a year ago I got caught big time in a narcissists web I was having weekly meetings of my Healing Place group when a man I knew started to come. I knew he had a lot of problems and didn’t really want him as part of the group. But then I discovered that he was being falsely accused of being a stalker by a woman who was in a leadership position and as a result was being severly abused by their pastor. The pastor sent him a particularly nasty e-mail which he got within hours of discovering that his mother was dying. So I got sucked in. Now this wasn’t the I’m gonna run things type of narcissist but the clingy, needy type who expected everything and anything to be an occaision for him to talk about his problems. The first time he didn’t get his way, he blew, left, and began a hate campaign. I ended up putting the public meetings on hiatus, and have taken a little over a year to regroup. I still have several people who come for counsel, prayer , or teaching…just not in a public venue. Public meetings will start again soon.
Preacherlady, that must have been hard. Good to hear you stayed on your feet and are going to resume meetings. Sounds like you have a rich church background and I am sure you have seen a lot of the ugliness. How do you stay on your feet and stay healthy and optimistic?
Preacherlady: It was March of ‘72 when I stepped into all of this and somewhere in the 80’s when the Charismatic movement blew through, bringing its own strange form of what I knew to be Pentecost, television evangelism promoting it until it seemed most all denominations out there had absorbed some of it. I speak in such terms not because holiness didn’t have its own problems, but because the new sweep, to me, threw out the truth along with the legality; and I speak only of the movement, realizing that there are good people within any step toward God. Just wanted to say here, though, that I’ll be watching for the link to your new website. Peace, my friend…..
Darrin…its more like I eventually LAND on my feet, get healthy, and get optimistic I’ve been through some pretty dark times in 30+ years. I’ve learned to not blame, but to look at myself and what I could have done differently. The victim mentallity keeps us stuck. It takes a lot to get back on the horse. I know of others who havn’t been so fortunate. What I’ve found works for me is to have no denominational affiliation and to work as an independent. I have accountability partners who keep me straight. And even then, because I have a ministry and not a church, although some use it as a church, I inherit the problems of several churches, because church people come to the meetings. But back to how I stay sane, or relatively so…I spend a lot of time in contemplation and study. The only thing to do when its hitting the fan, or has hit, is to strengthen your own relationship. Spending time in The Silence is the only refresher that seems to work.
Darrin…you mentioned that I must have seen a lot of ugliness…sure have, and I’ll probably see more…BUT….I’ve also seen the glory of transformed lives…of people being made whole…I’ve experienced it in my own life…and no amount of ugly can take that away.
I think there may be another way to look at this. I have found communities when I needed them. I have been a member of a number of different communities. The assumption coming in for me, was I was committed for life because now I found the right community. And the idea was that everybody should be a part of my community because we have exactly what everyone needs.
The problem with that is we grow. I’m not saying that people grow beyond, but may grow in a different direction. I think the beauty of nakedness, at least the way I understand it, is that when something stops working, it is apparent much sooner. It’s not always failure, but may be growth. Every mentor has to let go sometime and every student has to get beyond being a student.
Some of the later communities that I was a part of came to recognize that I had grown past the role I played there. It was time for me to make room for someone else and time for me to seek other growth opportunities. The relationship I have with that community is one where, when we have a chance to be together, we feel like I never left. We start right were we left off the last time I was there.
It’s comfortable. We know who we are. And there is no comparing or regrets. I think sometimes the need for security doesn’t allow people to grow. Many communities are way stations, not marriages or contracts. It takes a while for a community to be comfortable with that.
Richard, if a person needs to move on from one church to another then the reasons you give are about the best out there. What do you say however if someone asks you about not just your needs to grow in a different direction, but for that particular church’s need to enjoy your fellowship and worshipping company (and your giftedness)?
We had an experience with a very problematic family whose parents were asked about whether their attempts to take over control were a repeat of prior church episodes. They promptly quit the church. One of the sons was probably the brightest young man I ever met. I’ll call him Jack. He was a fourth year philosophy major and their family was very influential with people and would therefore have a negative impact on the church by leaving. He called me for coffee basically to defend his parents and shift blame onto me. We spent 2 hours trying to discuss why or what the Biblical guidelines were about committing to a group of people was all about. I could not seem at all to convince him that membership is more than simply gracing us with his presence when it was convenient or socially enjoyable for him, or advantageous to his parents.
I was more than happy to bless him to go, but something smelled wrong about his attitude and reasons. He was VERY smug about it and made the claim that he was actually a memebr of the body of Christ (universal) which he meant could be anywhere anytime friends of his or people with whom he felt comfortable worshiping with gathered (could be in a pub or hiking or wherever). A local church body was relevant only if convenient. Nothing I said could get through his very finely nuanced philosophical arguments. Basically he was kicking my ass. Finally it dawned on me that everything he was saying centred around the pronoun ” I “.
He leaned back with a very smug grin knowing that he had outsmarted me and announced, “so that’s where I’m at.” I was beaten. Then it hit me.
I said “Jack tell me one thing then. tell me what to say to the kids in the fellowship who love you and are going to be disappointed and ask us Where’s Jack? We miss him, he’s fun.”
I don’t think I have ever before or since seen someone as flustered, red faced and stumble around bumbling for words as he then did. It was a disaster for him. Finally he got up to leave and said to me “just because I have no answer, doesn’t mean I’m wrong.” Then he left.
I am certain that he thought that I think I won that day. I don’t see it that way. The whole family are still “ex’s” and we haven’t spoken since.
Darrin,
That’s a pretty sad story. It sounds like it was difficult.
I learned something from breaking up with girlfriends. I decided that I was tired of trying to make a girl like me and I only wanted to be with someone who wanted to be with me. It really saved me a lot of grief because I learned that this was a great place to be.
By being myself all the time I attracted girls who liked me and when I sensed they were losing interest I asked them. And if they were I usually said something like, “You know it’s a waste of energy doing something you don’t like, let’s take the pressure off.”
This had the effect of placing quality, not quantity in my life. I have learned that if something isn’t working out, the sooner you confront it the better.
I think the mistake this person you were talking with made was his need to assign blame. His weakness and possibly yours as well was the need to be right. I sense that he was torn between loyalty to his family and loyalty to you. He certainly had a need to explain himself to you.
I think your question to him really drew out the struggle, but I think you missed the opportunity to let him off the hook. At least with his personal relationship to you. That’s how you leave the door open. I think he left feeling shame, which isn’t really that great of motivator to return.
You may have said some of these things, so I freely admit that I may be off base. Some phrases that I have found to be powerful come from how I feel personally. Like, “Jack, I am going to miss you. The main message I want to communicate to you is that I still want you and your family here, but I understand that you may have a different calling and it sounds like you have some very good reasons for doing so. What would you like for me to say that would support you and encourage you in the decision that you have made? And even if we aren’t working as closely together, is there anything you need to hear from me so that we can stay friends?”
I wasn’t there, but these are few things that come to mind. Take what seems useful to you.
Wow. Richard I don’t know what to say. Half of me wants to agree with you and the other half wants to pin you to a wall with an air nailer and throw tomatoes at you.
I’ll go with the latter half of me because the first half of me is exactly how I have responded to these situations over the years. Most of us are far too nice for these situations, I know have been…..and certainly too many people then come to expect that from pastors….”Mr. diplomatic Pastor pastel, always nice to people no matter what.” Most of us will let a devil go unchallenged in the hopes of winning him over. It doesn’t really matter how much it costs a pastor personally to receive and absorb the incredible self-absorption that people dish out to him. He must always reply the way we have come to accept….. nicely. and certainly do not call a spade a spade!
What I do remember about that day is that I said pretty much exactly what your last paragraph describes, which is exactly what I said to the parents when we discovered they had been building alliances and dividing the church with no interest in “working anything out.” That explains the lingering feelings I have that I was nothing more than a prostitute…. willingly!
And be assured, Jack had no conflict and no shame and no interest in being right. He had one goal only and that was to put it on me. I discovered from other church leaders that for 20 years this family had been doing this. One church which was thriving was absolutely blown to shreds by them. They were seen as a family of enormous arrogance. And my playing nice actually did let them off the hook, which allowed some people loyal to them but who stayed with us to replay the conflict many months later, then leave, then join up with the family (at their home “prayer” meetings) after pretending to be offended by what the family did in the first place.
In any case, this needs to be brought back to the point of the original reasons for jumping in on this posting of David’s about Ex’s. Richard, do you understand what it does to a pastor on the inside of him or her not only when decent people leave for the simple reason that they need to go “find themselves” or “grow” and find a better church, but when the soul eaters ravage your congregation and you, maybe your family, and all you do is live up to the expectation of being nice? It doesn’t take much for the momentum of a growing little church to stop in the face of this, and then turn the other way and begin the hemoraghing of people (most of whom are good people) who get tired of the growing drama and uncertainty. Each one of those losses are not about loss of offering money or resources (at least to a good natured pastor) but the loss of someone they love. And perhaps it is precisely because this goes on unchallenged by those of us who somehow joined the vanilla army of “nice gracious” pastors that causes it to be a growing epidemic within churches and seen as simply normal.
No. To hell with that. We bear the biggest cost of that and you may have no idea what it does to the soul or to the pastors children. I’m not sure we ourselves know what it does to us. My biggest salvation in this was to take a job as a prison chaplain. that is a place where if you don’t learn how to stand your ground you are done. And it helps you learn to trust your guts about when a person is bad and you are trying to convince yourself that he or she is really good. Here in prison the facts of which is which are there in the file as well as in the activity of what goes on in jail. And it’s not just inmates. It’s “normal” people who work there that are sometimes the bad ones.
When I extrapolate what I learned about human nature from the prison, and apply it to life including the church, then it causes me to re-evaluate what we do in church and how we lead. My dilemma is that for me I am not sure I can (or want to) find a third way. I hate the thought of serving a system of organized religion and playing that heavy handed game of manipulation and power. I equally hate the thought of what I’ve done which sounds like what you describe and lay down and play the whore. So where does that leave me? I know many good pastors who just leave it all together. it just ain’t worth it. That’s going to leave in place the ones who will play power and control. But maybe that’s just what some people in the church deserve.
Darrin,
What a refreshing breath of honesty you bring.
“No. To hell with that. We bear the biggest cost of that and you may have no idea what it does to the soul or to the pastors children. I’m not sure we ourselves know what it does to us.”
To be fair, I do know what it costs since I happen to be the son of a Chrsitian High School principal which is simply another form of PK. My dad went through witch hunts and unjust attacks and suffered acutely for his willingness to stand for his principles. (no pun intended.
) And the requirements of being the perfect family took their toll.
“My biggest salvation in this was to take a job as a prison chaplain. that is a place where if you don’t learn how to stand your ground you are done. And it helps you learn to trust your guts about when a person is bad and you are trying to convince yourself that he or she is really good. Here in prison the facts of which is which are there in the file as well as in the activity of what goes on in jail. And it’s not just inmates. It’s “normal” people who work there that are sometimes the bad ones.”
I agree with you. “Normal” people might not commit physical violence, but betrayal is a form of violence none the less. At this point in my life I am grateful to the people who betrayed me and my family because it woke me up to a whole different way of being in life, which is quite wonderful.
It’s the resentment that was holding me in that place of suffering. When I was able to be in a community that let me express my anger and resentment safely, just as you have in the last post, I experienced a transformation.
What you label as me being “nice” isn’t quiet as nice as it appears. I am far more interested in keeping my side of the street clean since that keeps me free. I don’t have to keep secrets or defend stuff that I am responsible for, however minor.
If it was today and I was going through the situation you described, I would care about that family as fellow human beings, but I wouldn’t really care if they stayed in my community or not. In fact when I have experienced betrayal like that, I tend to be relieved that they are leaving. It would show me that what I thought was a friendship was only something I was making up in my own mind. I would want to stay on good terms for pragmatic reasons, but if they wanted to be reconciled with me, they would have to own up to their own stuff before they could be in relationship with me again.
So I’m not soft on bullshit either and I don’t recommend it.
“When I extrapolate what I learned about human nature from the prison, and apply it to life including the church, then it causes me to re-evaluate what we do in church and how we lead. My dilemma is that for me I am not sure I can (or want to) find a third way. I hate the thought of serving a system of organized religion and playing that heavy handed game of manipulation and power. I equally hate the thought of what I’ve done which sounds like what you describe and lay down and play the whore. So where does that leave me? I know many good pastors who just leave it all together. it just ain’t worth it. That’s going to leave in place the ones who will play power and control. But maybe that’s just what some people in the church deserve.”
I think you hit the nail on the head. The universe has a way of balancing things out. It makes it a lot easier for me to let go of the outcome.
Thanks for being so naked!
I’m not a pastor, but I think all that resentment that piles up while you feel you have to be the nicest person in the room, is harmful. When you keep on being so longsuffering, you are really misrepresenting reality to the other people PLUS you start to lose self-respect, cause playing “the wimp” gets old. I guess I don’t believe in “turning the other cheek.”
Of course, I was unable to apply this to my work situation. I simply left. Why didn’t I do what I recommended above? I already felt rejected and knew it would be me against all the others and they would discuss me behind my back. I’m a very sensitive person (it makes life difficult-lol) but that’s something I have to fight within myself all the time.
I just know that I really respect the person who listens to what someone says and is upfront about what they are really feeling. You have to be able to say everything well though. You could even say “Well, to be honest, I feel a little angry toward you because I was depending on you, and this does cause me problems. I have to find a new person to do what you were doing, I have to answer others’ questions.”
If they are blaming you for stuff, you can try to honestly see if they might be correct.
I don’t even know why I’m writing all this. It just sounded familiar to me. I fear rejection and don’t like conflict, so I keep quiet and suffer for it.
I also appreciate that people can expres themselves here. It’s certainly easier when you are safely at home on a computer and have a fake name. Makes honesty a lot easier.