that was one of the things that impressed me when I first became a Christian. The writers of the Bible did not try to hide the fact that the Body of Christ was not without big time problems and issues. The apostle Paul, in particular, laid out bare bones the sicknesses in the Body. He also gave the medicine as to how to heal the sicknesses. But sadly, there has always been those who say the medicine is to awful to the taste buds, and/or they have found a better cure.
Is the Body of Christ sick–yep! However, it will not die; it will be made perfect when Jesus returns.
fishon
I don’t understand how it can be so sick if the old has become new, people have a new nature and the Holy Spirit. It seems like Christians would be VERY different from most other people.
And it seems like all the praying doesn’t help much. The problems continue. It just seems like this would cause people to question the validity of the whole thing.
The istitution gives lip service to the idea that He is the Head. But it arranges things in such a way that the machine will opertate just as well without His direct involvement. Who needs a living and interested Head? He might as well be on Pluto looking at us with a telescope, or just a historical figure, or an idea, or nothing at all for as much difference it makes. The machine will run just fine without His intervention. We have professionals instead. Management techniques. An orderly program. Logos and slogans and jingles. Atmosphere. Legitimacy. The institution has it all covered. No need for icky and unpredictable supernatural intervention in the order of its affairs. But on a more serious note, I’m reminded of a T.A. Sparks saying about the Body. “The measure of the church is Christ. More Christ, more church; less Christ, less church.”
Lynn said, on January 4th, 2010 at 4:46 pm
I don’t understand how it can be so sick if the old has become new, people have a new nature and the Holy Spirit.
——Well, Lynn, if you read on, you will find that though we have a new nature we {Christians} can still be disobedient and “grieve the Holy Spirit.” In fact, we are told as Christians, when, not if, but when we sin [issues/sickness] we are to repent and we will be forgiven.
And Jesus himself does not duck or neglect the issue; check out the 7 Churches of Asia in Rev., especially Rev. 2:4-5. Biblical context is everything, Lynn.
It seems like Christians would be VERY different from most other people.
———And millions are.
And it seems like all the praying doesn’t help much.
———Maybe for you, but you can hardly speak for me and….
The problems continue. It just seems like this would cause people to question the validity of the whole thing.
———So how do you know that millions of people haven’t, but came away with answers that validated their faith?
fishon
Lynn…there’s praying and there’s praying. Most people just keep up a running monologue with God and never shut up and listen. Prayer will transform us if we concentrate on knowing God rather than getting stuff. By and large, people want their circumstances to change but don’t want to make the changes that will do just that. They want God to wave a magic wand and remove 50 lbs. from their body while they lie on the couch channel surfing, drinking beer and eating potato chips. Ain’t gonna happen! They don’t want the wisdom to eat a proper diet and exercise properly. What needs to be questioned is the validity of their practice. They aren’t seeking the Kingdom of God …they are seeking stuff and for conditions to change magically.
As a friend of mine once said, “The problem with a living sacrifice is that it keeps crawling off of the altar.”
It SEEMS like we should look better. Of course, if we looked significantly better, the broken would not come because of their brokenness. If we are honest and display our brokenness, then we don’t look any better than anyone else, so why bother to come…
wretched man that I am, who shall save me from this body of death…
Lynn, your observations mirror mine. The facts are;
1 – People who are members of (attend regularly) a social group, generally are happier than those who are not.
2 – Christianity (church), can be viewed as a social group.
3 – Christians (in general) are a tad bit happier than non believers.
4 – Happier people live a tad bit longer than people who are not as happy.
5 – Christians, as a social group, live a tad bit longer than non believers.
But all one has to do is look around, in your neighborhood, at work, family relations, etc, to see that there really is no discernible difference between believers and non believers. Their lives display no evidence that the God they believe in exists. Realistically speaking, the only way to tell a believer from a non believer is by asking them what they believe, because by observing their lives (attitude, behavior, lifestyle, health) and compare them to non believers, there is very little difference.
So, what do believers have that non believers don’t have…a belief that makes them a little happier, and therefor, they live a couple years longer.
Good point. The church seems to run fine with or without Christ.
fishon,
You make some good points. I have met a couple who seem to have something special. They are few and far between though. And re prayer-you’re right-mine didn’t work, but that doesn’t mean others’ prayers don’t.
preacherlady,
I do see what you’re saying, but the Bible does say “ask and you will receive.” A lot of people naturally just take that to mean what it plainly says. Then others start talking about context. But you can go insane sometimes by the time you get through with all the contexts-of that chapter, of that book, of that testament, of the whole Bible.
And I think very few are seeking the Kingdom of God. Ofcourse we’d have to go on to say what “seeking the kingdom of God” actually means.
I think people read in the Bible where it says “ask, seek, God supplies all your needs, etc.” Then they do that and are sort of called selfish for doing so. You can’t win.
bob,
I really like what you said and think it is correct.
steve martin,
Yes, I know. Unbelievers get to roast in hell forever.
Lynn said, on January 5th, 2010 at 11:41 am
preacherlady: I do see what you’re saying, but the Bible does say “ask and you will receive.” A lot of people naturally just take that to mean what it plainly says. Then others start talking about context. But you can go insane sometimes by the time you get through with all the contexts-of that chapter, of that book, of that testament, of the whole Bible.
———Lynn, I ain’t no doctor, but I promise you, you will not go insane studing the Bible and searching context. And it is possible to understand, but it takes study, time, effort, prayer, discipline [no one likes that word much]. Paul wrote in 2 Timothy 2:15 “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth” {KJV}. Again, I promise if you study the Bible you WILL NOT go insane. Millions have studied the Bible an seem to be pretty sane, don’t you think?
YOU:And I think very few are seeking the Kingdom of God.
————-I think you are right.
YOU: Ofcourse we’d have to go on to say what “seeking the kingdom of God” actually means.——————Right again.
YOU: I think people read in the Bible where it says “ask, seek, God supplies all your needs, etc.”
————–Key word being “needs.”
YOU:Then they do that and are sort of called selfish for doing so. You can’t win.
—————-Won’t you argee, some are very selfish?
fishon
I guess “insane” was a little over the top. I do find it all confusing, but I tend toward “over-thinking.” I acknowledge that tendency in myself, but there remains the problem that you can make a good case for whatever you want to make a case for (practically) by looking to the Bible for answers. So there’s all the context, then the interpretation, then applying rightly or wrongly to a situation here in 2010. For me, it IS crazy-making.
And you are correct that many, many people have studied the Bible thoroughly and are at peace. I guess it has different effects on different people.
Re praying for wants and needs. Forgetting the wants, how about all the people who pray for true needs and their prayers go unanswered? The whole thing about praying is pretty disturbing anyway, when you think of an American woman praying for a parking space at the mall AND a starving child praying for help to the same God. The woman finds her space and thanks God. The child a lot of times simply dies. It’s preposterous when you think about it.
I have read of surveys that have concluded (based on the answers given) that Christians at least claim to be happy. I don’t remember if this takes into account that they may just be answering that they are happy because they believe they are supposed to be happy.
But I believe people are happier when they socialize on a regular basis with like minded people.
Your thoughts Quester?
I forgot to say that, I do know that many, many non believers, especially former believers, like me, suffer from feelings of loneliness and isolation because we once were a part of a social network of believers, and now we are mostly cut off from that group and have to start from scratch, having to find other groups to fit into, such as clubs and organizations.
Thanks for your response. I would agree that people who socialize with like-minded people are more likely to enjoy the experience than people who find themselves on the outside of a group they once were a part of.
Seems to me that in fact the old *hasn’t* become new for a whole lot of people. Many people talk the talk, but don’t walk the walk. I don’t think you can expect miracles if you aren’t trying to live according to the teachings of Jesus. There is grace, but we also need to do our part.
As for prayer – well, whether it’s “effective” depends on what its purpose is. If we’re trying to convince God that He’s somehow made a mistake (say, but not making us wealthy), then it probably isn’t going to “work”. God probably knows what He’s doing; and even if He doesn’t, He’s not likely to admit it.
It seems that the value and power of prayer is in its effect on us, not in its effect on God or His will. It is, I believe, learning how to know God’s will and allow Him to work in our lives without interference. If we view God as some sort of Cosmic Santa Claus, we’ve missed the point. “But seek ye first the kingdom of God,and His righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.” (Matthew 6:33). That’s very difficult to do, but nothing else works.
It is sick. It is fatigued by both effort and sorrow. It is wounded, and broken, and covered
in scars.
It is beautiful. It rises to the occasion and tries to dig deep into a divine reservoir of strength and fortitude for not its own sake, but for the sake of others. It is hopeful, and courageous (not fearless), and ever marching forward despite it’s wounds.
I am a Christian, and now a minister. I used to be a police officer; I left the department to be a security consultant–where I did the same things I did as a detective, just for private business and got paid better for it.
Now first, among police officers (and I think firefighters, paramedics, etc. too), you find that after a while, a few years on the job, they HAVE to find some sort of outlet, some relief, from the horror, tragedies, pain, and general muck, mire and filth they deal with day in and day out. Being human, they turn to all sorts of things: some turn to drugs or alcohol; some turn to sexual promiscuity; others to crime; still others to civic responsibilities, whether that means to work with underprivledged kids or with deliquents or “good” kids; and a few turn to Christ. Me: I turned to cynicism. (Didn’t expect that, did you?) I was developing a rotten attitude; it had not manifested itself toward my family, but it certainly did toward many, if not most, of the people I dealt with. That was when I turned to Christ Jesus. And to be frank with you: I did not notice the difference myself. Someone else pointed it out to me.
I was interviewing a young lady whose employer had experienced a significant internal loss (now, 25 or 30 years later, I do not recall the details, whether money or goods; but it was enough that they were willing to pay us $300/day plus expenses to find the source and plug the leak). During the course of our interview, I asked her how she felt about our interaction, and whether she was worried about the outcome. She replied that she was not worried at all. For one thing, she said, she knew she stole nothing, so she had nothing to fear. And for another, a friend who worked at the same company told her she would be all right as long as the guy who was to interview her was not this one guy: late 20s, dark hair, little moustache, about 5′10″, and heavy set–he was just a real jerk, and hated everybody. She looked at me then: there I was, late 20s, dark hair, little moustache, about 5′10″, and heavy set–and said, “Oh, but I know she didn’t mean you. You’re nice.”
I didn’t have the heart to tell her that there were only two us us; and the other guy, my boss, was about 6′2, clean shaven, and in his mid-40s. The difference: I had become a Christian. Christ dwelt in me, and my “old man” had been crucified.
I know this is anecdotal, and that surveys may tell a somewhat different story. But my story is repeated over and over in churches. And had I taken a survey about happiness back then, I may not have noticed the difference in my new self and the old. But it would have been there, for others to notice.
David Hayward is a pastor artistically stripping to the essential.
Right!
And the only cure for that body is that it (they) die.
Only then can the head (Jesus) raise them to a new life.
Death and resurrection. Repentance and forgiveness.
A Romans 6 picture of Baptism.
There he goes again…putting it all on Christ and trying to take us out of the game. (that’s exactly what the Sacraments are intended to do)
That is freak’en hystercal! Thanks for the smile.
that was one of the things that impressed me when I first became a Christian. The writers of the Bible did not try to hide the fact that the Body of Christ was not without big time problems and issues. The apostle Paul, in particular, laid out bare bones the sicknesses in the Body. He also gave the medicine as to how to heal the sicknesses. But sadly, there has always been those who say the medicine is to awful to the taste buds, and/or they have found a better cure.
Is the Body of Christ sick–yep! However, it will not die; it will be made perfect when Jesus returns.
fishon
I don’t understand how it can be so sick if the old has become new, people have a new nature and the Holy Spirit. It seems like Christians would be VERY different from most other people.
And it seems like all the praying doesn’t help much. The problems continue. It just seems like this would cause people to question the validity of the whole thing.
The istitution gives lip service to the idea that He is the Head. But it arranges things in such a way that the machine will opertate just as well without His direct involvement. Who needs a living and interested Head? He might as well be on Pluto looking at us with a telescope, or just a historical figure, or an idea, or nothing at all for as much difference it makes. The machine will run just fine without His intervention. We have professionals instead. Management techniques. An orderly program. Logos and slogans and jingles. Atmosphere. Legitimacy. The institution has it all covered. No need for icky and unpredictable supernatural intervention in the order of its affairs. But on a more serious note, I’m reminded of a T.A. Sparks saying about the Body. “The measure of the church is Christ. More Christ, more church; less Christ, less church.”
Lynn said, on January 4th, 2010 at 4:46 pm
I don’t understand how it can be so sick if the old has become new, people have a new nature and the Holy Spirit.
——Well, Lynn, if you read on, you will find that though we have a new nature we {Christians} can still be disobedient and “grieve the Holy Spirit.” In fact, we are told as Christians, when, not if, but when we sin [issues/sickness] we are to repent and we will be forgiven.
And Jesus himself does not duck or neglect the issue; check out the 7 Churches of Asia in Rev., especially Rev. 2:4-5. Biblical context is everything, Lynn.
It seems like Christians would be VERY different from most other people.
———And millions are.
And it seems like all the praying doesn’t help much.
———Maybe for you, but you can hardly speak for me and….
The problems continue. It just seems like this would cause people to question the validity of the whole thing.
———So how do you know that millions of people haven’t, but came away with answers that validated their faith?
fishon
Lynn…there’s praying and there’s praying. Most people just keep up a running monologue with God and never shut up and listen. Prayer will transform us if we concentrate on knowing God rather than getting stuff. By and large, people want their circumstances to change but don’t want to make the changes that will do just that. They want God to wave a magic wand and remove 50 lbs. from their body while they lie on the couch channel surfing, drinking beer and eating potato chips. Ain’t gonna happen! They don’t want the wisdom to eat a proper diet and exercise properly. What needs to be questioned is the validity of their practice. They aren’t seeking the Kingdom of God …they are seeking stuff and for conditions to change magically.
As a friend of mine once said, “The problem with a living sacrifice is that it keeps crawling off of the altar.”
It SEEMS like we should look better. Of course, if we looked significantly better, the broken would not come because of their brokenness. If we are honest and display our brokenness, then we don’t look any better than anyone else, so why bother to come…
wretched man that I am, who shall save me from this body of death…
Very well said, Alice.
jerry fishon
Lynn, your observations mirror mine. The facts are;
1 – People who are members of (attend regularly) a social group, generally are happier than those who are not.
2 – Christianity (church), can be viewed as a social group.
3 – Christians (in general) are a tad bit happier than non believers.
4 – Happier people live a tad bit longer than people who are not as happy.
5 – Christians, as a social group, live a tad bit longer than non believers.
But all one has to do is look around, in your neighborhood, at work, family relations, etc, to see that there really is no discernible difference between believers and non believers. Their lives display no evidence that the God they believe in exists. Realistically speaking, the only way to tell a believer from a non believer is by asking them what they believe, because by observing their lives (attitude, behavior, lifestyle, health) and compare them to non believers, there is very little difference.
So, what do believers have that non believers don’t have…a belief that makes them a little happier, and therefor, they live a couple years longer.
“So, what do believers have that non believers don’t have…a belief that makes them a little happier, and therefor, they live a couple years longer.”
Believers will only die once. Christ will pull them out of the grave to eternal life.
Mark VH,
Good point. The church seems to run fine with or without Christ.
fishon,
You make some good points. I have met a couple who seem to have something special. They are few and far between though. And re prayer-you’re right-mine didn’t work, but that doesn’t mean others’ prayers don’t.
preacherlady,
I do see what you’re saying, but the Bible does say “ask and you will receive.” A lot of people naturally just take that to mean what it plainly says. Then others start talking about context. But you can go insane sometimes by the time you get through with all the contexts-of that chapter, of that book, of that testament, of the whole Bible.
And I think very few are seeking the Kingdom of God. Ofcourse we’d have to go on to say what “seeking the kingdom of God” actually means.
I think people read in the Bible where it says “ask, seek, God supplies all your needs, etc.” Then they do that and are sort of called selfish for doing so. You can’t win.
bob,
I really like what you said and think it is correct.
steve martin,
Yes, I know. Unbelievers get to roast in hell forever.
Lynn said, on January 5th, 2010 at 11:41 am
preacherlady: I do see what you’re saying, but the Bible does say “ask and you will receive.” A lot of people naturally just take that to mean what it plainly says. Then others start talking about context. But you can go insane sometimes by the time you get through with all the contexts-of that chapter, of that book, of that testament, of the whole Bible.
———Lynn, I ain’t no doctor, but I promise you, you will not go insane studing the Bible and searching context. And it is possible to understand, but it takes study, time, effort, prayer, discipline [no one likes that word much]. Paul wrote in 2 Timothy 2:15 “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth” {KJV}. Again, I promise if you study the Bible you WILL NOT go insane. Millions have studied the Bible an seem to be pretty sane, don’t you think?
YOU:And I think very few are seeking the Kingdom of God.
————-I think you are right.
YOU: Ofcourse we’d have to go on to say what “seeking the kingdom of God” actually means.——————Right again.
YOU: I think people read in the Bible where it says “ask, seek, God supplies all your needs, etc.”
————–Key word being “needs.”
YOU:Then they do that and are sort of called selfish for doing so. You can’t win.
—————-Won’t you argee, some are very selfish?
fishon
fishon,
I guess “insane” was a little over the top. I do find it all confusing, but I tend toward “over-thinking.” I acknowledge that tendency in myself, but there remains the problem that you can make a good case for whatever you want to make a case for (practically) by looking to the Bible for answers. So there’s all the context, then the interpretation, then applying rightly or wrongly to a situation here in 2010. For me, it IS crazy-making.
And you are correct that many, many people have studied the Bible thoroughly and are at peace. I guess it has different effects on different people.
Re praying for wants and needs. Forgetting the wants, how about all the people who pray for true needs and their prayers go unanswered? The whole thing about praying is pretty disturbing anyway, when you think of an American woman praying for a parking space at the mall AND a starving child praying for help to the same God. The woman finds her space and thanks God. The child a lot of times simply dies. It’s preposterous when you think about it.
Christians (in general) are a tad bit happier than non believers.
Bob, what leads you to draw this conclusion?
I have read of surveys that have concluded (based on the answers given) that Christians at least claim to be happy. I don’t remember if this takes into account that they may just be answering that they are happy because they believe they are supposed to be happy.
But I believe people are happier when they socialize on a regular basis with like minded people.
Your thoughts Quester?
I forgot to say that, I do know that many, many non believers, especially former believers, like me, suffer from feelings of loneliness and isolation because we once were a part of a social network of believers, and now we are mostly cut off from that group and have to start from scratch, having to find other groups to fit into, such as clubs and organizations.
Bob,
Thanks for your response. I would agree that people who socialize with like-minded people are more likely to enjoy the experience than people who find themselves on the outside of a group they once were a part of.
Seems to me that in fact the old *hasn’t* become new for a whole lot of people. Many people talk the talk, but don’t walk the walk. I don’t think you can expect miracles if you aren’t trying to live according to the teachings of Jesus. There is grace, but we also need to do our part.
As for prayer – well, whether it’s “effective” depends on what its purpose is. If we’re trying to convince God that He’s somehow made a mistake (say, but not making us wealthy), then it probably isn’t going to “work”. God probably knows what He’s doing; and even if He doesn’t, He’s not likely to admit it.
It seems that the value and power of prayer is in its effect on us, not in its effect on God or His will. It is, I believe, learning how to know God’s will and allow Him to work in our lives without interference. If we view God as some sort of Cosmic Santa Claus, we’ve missed the point. “But seek ye first the kingdom of God,and His righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.” (Matthew 6:33). That’s very difficult to do, but nothing else works.
Behold the body of Christ:
It is sick. It is fatigued by both effort and sorrow. It is wounded, and broken, and covered
in scars.
It is beautiful. It rises to the occasion and tries to dig deep into a divine reservoir of strength and fortitude for not its own sake, but for the sake of others. It is hopeful, and courageous (not fearless), and ever marching forward despite it’s wounds.
Re: Christians being a “tad bit happier”:
I am a Christian, and now a minister. I used to be a police officer; I left the department to be a security consultant–where I did the same things I did as a detective, just for private business and got paid better for it.
Now first, among police officers (and I think firefighters, paramedics, etc. too), you find that after a while, a few years on the job, they HAVE to find some sort of outlet, some relief, from the horror, tragedies, pain, and general muck, mire and filth they deal with day in and day out. Being human, they turn to all sorts of things: some turn to drugs or alcohol; some turn to sexual promiscuity; others to crime; still others to civic responsibilities, whether that means to work with underprivledged kids or with deliquents or “good” kids; and a few turn to Christ. Me: I turned to cynicism. (Didn’t expect that, did you?) I was developing a rotten attitude; it had not manifested itself toward my family, but it certainly did toward many, if not most, of the people I dealt with. That was when I turned to Christ Jesus. And to be frank with you: I did not notice the difference myself. Someone else pointed it out to me.
I was interviewing a young lady whose employer had experienced a significant internal loss (now, 25 or 30 years later, I do not recall the details, whether money or goods; but it was enough that they were willing to pay us $300/day plus expenses to find the source and plug the leak). During the course of our interview, I asked her how she felt about our interaction, and whether she was worried about the outcome. She replied that she was not worried at all. For one thing, she said, she knew she stole nothing, so she had nothing to fear. And for another, a friend who worked at the same company told her she would be all right as long as the guy who was to interview her was not this one guy: late 20s, dark hair, little moustache, about 5′10″, and heavy set–he was just a real jerk, and hated everybody. She looked at me then: there I was, late 20s, dark hair, little moustache, about 5′10″, and heavy set–and said, “Oh, but I know she didn’t mean you. You’re nice.”
I didn’t have the heart to tell her that there were only two us us; and the other guy, my boss, was about 6′2, clean shaven, and in his mid-40s. The difference: I had become a Christian. Christ dwelt in me, and my “old man” had been crucified.
I know this is anecdotal, and that surveys may tell a somewhat different story. But my story is repeated over and over in churches. And had I taken a survey about happiness back then, I may not have noticed the difference in my new self and the old. But it would have been there, for others to notice.
John