I want to thank you all for involving yourselves with nakedpastor this past year. I usually love the quality of our community here. I put out my ideas and the variety of responses they get is a pleasure for me. Nakepastor would be nothing without all of you reading and participating. Over the last year I’ve discovered that there are far more readers than there are commenters. So there’s a huge silent majority involved with nakedpastor that we don’t even know. I hope more people find the nerve to enter into the fray. In many ways, nakedpastor is an online reflection of my local church that I pastor here in eastern Canada. In fact, since we seem to like lists, here’s a list of the positive similarities between the community at my church and the one on nakedpastor:
- both are very unique communities
- you are free to speak your mind
- i am free to speak mine
- there’s an appreciation, usually, of humor
- a wide diversity of belief and non-belief
- exploration of doubt and faith are both embraced
- even if there’s disagreement, usually respect is shown
- you feel free to call me on my bullshit
- women have strong voices
- gays, and other marginalized persons, have full status, rights and privileges
That’s just some of the similarities. Again, thanks everyone for a great year. The traffic to np has about doubled in 2009. Maybe we can see that happen again. Tell your family, friends, pastors and enemies. It’s not about financial gain for me. In fact, that’s another similarity between my church and this community: I’m not going to get rich on it… yet ( 
). Anyway, here’s to 2009! And here’s to 2010!! May you all have a great new year. And genuine heart-felt thanks from me!
). Anyway, here’s to 2009! And here’s to 2010!! May you all have a great new year. And genuine heart-felt thanks from me!
Cartoonist.
Artist.
Spirituality Coach.
Writer.
Speaker.
Seed said – “What everyone seems to have a problem with is a non-christian, who is seeking God, decides to read this blog for the first time & is horribly offended…”
Horribly offended?
…”by the cartoons & writings. Obviously, not all of them, he would say himself there is a lot of good stuff too….but cartoons mocking congregations as blindly following their leader to go inseminate, penetrate, etc…is condescending & horribly unfair…”
Horribly unfair?
“…to the many hardworking, loving christians sitting in churches everywhere and you can see why he reacted as he did.”
Perhaps Davids cartoons are not directed at the loving Christians?
Seed said – “David obviously writes & draws his cartoons to shock people & get a response!”
Or, perhaps he just would like to communicate how he feels? My gosh woman!
Seed said – “My husband was seeing the hypocrisy & disrespect towards people who attend church that very few have challenged David on.”
From my perspective, your husband was seeing something that was not there.
Seed said – “Earlier on I participated often in debates until the reality set in that there really was only one view allowed on this blog.”
That is a lie!
Seed said – “I never appreciated his use of gratuitous nude pictures he used earlier on to increase his numbers…but I saw it for what it was…”
Perhaps David is just not a prude like you. And how dare you claim to know WHY he used nude photos. I am trying very hard not to call you a name at this point.
Seed said – “So, we are experiencing the knee jerk reactions to our comments. We’ve been judged.”
I am guessing that people like you usually view any reaction that is contrary to your beliefs, as “knee jerk”. And yes, you have been judged. Just as you have judged David and those here who responded to your comments. That’s life.
Seed said – “[David] You certainly have a tight, protective group guarding you from the people who have a contrary opinion”
I am an atheist. I disagree with any and every positive reference David makes about God / Jesus.
What I admire is his ability to question what he believes, his compassion towards his fellow humans, his desire for truth, and his patience towards those who strongly disagree with him. People like you, Seed, seem to be incapable of grasping the concept that some people (David) will freely express themselves in spite of tradition and disapproving eyes. And others, like me, will defend him against spurious attacks…even though David does not need us to defend him, nor has asked anyone to defend him.
Oh well. I had to type it even though she will never see it.
Wendy: I never saw the nasty name comment (I can’t do more than skim the vitriol on here at the best of times). I don’t comment myself on here, mainly for that reason.
But if your character needs defending, I am one of many at RV that is happy to do that. I’ve never known you to be anything but a compassionate, caring person —- I don’t think you’ve got a mean bone in your body. We miss you (by the way, I still have those CDs you lent me… sorry about that).
The whole chain here is unfortunate, but that’s the Net for you. The anonymity just often seems to breed a nastiness that you would never get in the real world. I’m sorry that you and your hubby got caught in the crossfire for just simply expressing a view.
Please folks, don’t throw stuff at me for this comment. My self esteem is low enough as it is without having a bunch of strangers spewing on me.
Take care mustard seed.
I can still not believe the way this new year opened.
What the heck??!
I feel a bit like Rodney King…but couldn’t we have at least started off this year by wishing each other a Happy New Year instead of charging in here and making disparaging remarks about the host and this guests?
Man or man, do I really hope this isn’t the way the whole year is gonna be…
mustardseed: if ever you need a character reference, you can always get one from me. no question. And others at rv would agree. same for andrew.
as this post intended to communicate, i love the diversity of belief and opinion at rv and np. if you go back and read the comments, you can see there is a wide diversity, from fundamentalist christian, atheist, and others. i haven’t collected them. they have gathered. and it has become apparent that commenting on np is not for the faint of heart, and i have come to the same conclusion about rv. not that the faint of heart are picked on. it’s that people in general respect people with opinions, so if they disagree, they feel allowed to challenge these opinions. to challenge an idea shows it respect, does it not? it is good to discuss, debate and disagree. with heat!
(about fine art nudes, i’m a fan. i didn’t do it to gain readers. i just appreciate it. in fact, i do fine art nudes myself.)
Trent P. I have been following these threads from the beginning. I have no idea how it ended up as it did. I did not find some of the original comments made by Andrew that upsetting or ‘out of line’. I thought he was being, actually very honest in his feelings. I understood why his wife went on to comment on some of the responses to him. I am not very savvy about ‘blogs’ and so I have been very taken aback by what went on here.
I am afraid I would have been quite hurt at some of the things that were said. However I think that one cannot take things personally here..afterall it is not ‘real life’..just cyber whatever!!
OLMS…nobody assaulted your character…just your judgement about the venue you chose to discuss your differences with David.Perhaps you should have let your husband fend for himself…in your attempt to protect him, you actually made things worse. Each of us needs different things at different times on their spiritual journey. You feel you need structure and a different format than is available at RV….but that doesn’t make what’s available at RV wrong. (Actually, this should be addressed to both of you since we don’t know who wrote what). Sometimes we need to move on, but it can be done in peace and love. Veiled threats, which were obvious with the repeated “Does the Vineyard know what you are doing?” do not provide an atmosphere of loving discussion. Because Andrew, by your statement, knows very little about church, his question as to whether a church should be run as a business would have been valid had it not been presented as a challenge. The bottom line to a church is people, not money. Yes, there is a need for money, but is secondary to the needs of the people. Those people who are now at RV need that sort of format. Those of us who visit this blog need it. Many of us are in ministry and have been subject to all sorts of abuse by the church…fill in a denomination, it doesn’t matter. You may not like David’s cartoons, but there are those of us who applaud him because he hits the nail on the head. The church in general is at the same place that the Jews were in when Jesus called them vipers and hypocrites. Because you were under David’s pastorate, you were probably pretty much insulated from the junk…he’s too authentic to participate in the cloning process. I pray that you find peace on your journey, and that as a family you have your spiritual needs met.
Well, I’m not sure endorsements from unbelievers is going to really help David, but here goes.
I would rather have honesty than “nice,” though I do like it when people are nice to me.
And I want to say that not one person has offended me here. Disagreement is not offense.
From my perspective it takes a lot of courage to do what David is doing here. What David is doing is not going to get me to join his or any other church, but I would enjoy spending some time with him and his community.
I respect authenticity where ever I can find it. I really like people who point out that the emperor has no clothes where ever I find them. And it’s really rare to find some one revealing the fact that they don’t have any clothes either.
So I celebrate the nakedness!!!
Bob and Tiggy, you two need anger management (and a life). Tsk, tsk, such bullying! Tiggy, glad to see you gone: I was getting tired of your ramblings anyway!
Go away, stay away, and (wow) this blog is just like so many others with the circling and pecking mentality of anyone and everyone who disagrees, which is why it’s the same old commentors all the time. Personally, I think cartoons and fan clubs are for kids, and the blog in general is much ado about nothing. A whole lot of whining about not fitting in – maybe there’s a good reason: many of you are socially inept, otherwise you wouldn’t have given this post so much time and energy! Though I guess it even pissed me off enough to make me come out of the shadows, I won’t be back either. I’d rather read Tweets from Hulk Hogan or someone who stands by their dumbness.
Mustard seed and hubby (I’m too lazy to go back and catch your name): it sounds like you made the right decision to leave. I think there are a few too many “internets” spending time preaching from their laptops, instead of actually getting out there and helping those who need it. But wait, I suppose ministering to people on any day besides Sunday (or from a laptop) is too “mainstream” and traditional. So not cool, I suppose.
What a farce!!
jimbob, why don’t you tell us what you really think?
“gratuitous nude pictures he used earlier on”
??? Seriously ??? I am totally going archive hunting!!!
To Mustard Seed and to Andrew — just want to say thanks and congratulations. You have made the unheard voices become voices. You have made the unquestioned become questioned.
This is from some of the earlier comments, but I really get a kick out of the phrase “laptop dogooders”. That is just simply awesome and I am getting outside more often because of it. So, this comment, and this blog, has provoked change in one reader / opinion-spewer.
“What will God think about all this wasted time debating church & how we feel when people are in real need in this world?”
All blessings
Before we leave this thread,realize what happened. Jesus gave specific instructions as to how to deal with conflict. Mustard seed and Andrew decided to deal with it their way instead of Jesus’ way. And then they complained that they got clobbered doing it their way. Perhaps, maybe…just maybe…Jesus(or the person who attributed the words to Jesus) knew what he was talking about.
Alice,
Of all the people on here who have NOT done things Jesus’ way, why have you picked out Mustardseed and Andrew to point out that problem? I don’t get it.
jerry [fishon]
jerry …I wasn’t picking on them. I don’t know if you read the whole thread or not, but Mustard seed was in essence whining because people were not being nice to her, unfriending her on facebook etc. Now, the banter that goes on amongst the commenters, as you well know, can go anywhere from “are you out of your mind?” to “I hear you.” However, Mustard seed and Andrew decided to use this blog as a venue to address their issues with David as a pastor. And to do it nastily. Andrew came on, unidentified, and dogmatically stated that a church should be run like a business and challenged David with a veiled threat “does the vineyard know what you’re doing?” …never mentions that he is/was in anyway connected to David’s church. The business of David’s church is just that and should be dealt with in a scriptural manner. There are no biblical rules as to how to deal with bloggers and the motley crew who visit here can’t be held to biblical standards since half of them look at the Bible as a few steps down from the Sunday comics. Yet , even for some of us, there are things we shouldn’t write for all the world to see “…speak to your brother in secret and if he hear you, you have gained a brother(Gal 6). My point was that if they hadn’t charged in here, complaining…attacking…and had followed the procedure Jesus gave us, that there would have been no feeling of having been picked on. Instead, they reaped what they had sewn almost immediately. The fact that it involved the business of David’s church, and was not kept in that context was what bothered me. A year or so ago, a member of The Healing Place…a person with serious emotional problems…was very upset because I wouldn’t give him unlimited one on one time when he hadn’t yet incorporated most of what we had been dealing with for the previous two years. I had put a lot of time and energy into this person’s growth for some very good reasons…serious spiritual abuse for one. Rather than confront the issue in the proscribed manner…and ironically he had brought the format that we used for conflict resolution to us…he went on a month long smear campaign that reached far and wide. What made it really bad was that with the half truths he was presenting it looked as if I could have been in the wrong and the only way I could defend myself would be to break confidentiality. So…I’m very sensitive to these things. Alice
Alice said: There are no biblical rules as to how to deal with bloggers and the motley crew who visit here can’t be held to biblical standards since half of them look at the Bible as a few steps down from the Sunday comics.
———-But Alice, that is what you put on them by saying:::”Jesus gave specific instructions as to how to deal with conflict. Mustard seed and Andrew decided to deal with it their way instead of Jesus’ way.”
———-Don’t you see the contradiction of your words?
YOU:However, Mustard seed and Andrew decided to use this blog as a venue to address their issues with David as a pastor. And to do it nastily.
————My goodness, Alice, I use this blog to address issues with David as a pastor, i.e., Z-theory among other issues. And for nasty, Steve and I have been accused of that more than once.
YOU: My point was that if they hadn’t charged in here, complaining…attacking…and had followed the procedure Jesus gave us,
————I came in this blog about 2 years ago complaining and attacking, and I am not the only one. So Mustard seed and Andrew are not anything new.
YOU:never mentions that he is/was in anyway connected to David’s church.
————Full discloser—-I know that there are those that defend David and they don’t disclose that they are from his Church. For or against, it ain’t a big deal in a blog.
Well, half-time is over, so back to the game.
MAKE IT a great tomorrow.
jerry
Jerry…the point is that these people were whining about how they were being treated on the blog. If you want to play on the blog you have to be ready to take what goes on on the blog. Suppose you whined every time someone told you you were full of it? If they wanted to be treated like the nice church people they claim to be then they need to follow Jesus’ rules, otherwise, they need to shut up and deal with what they put themselves into. Alice
MAKE IT A GREAT DAY, ALICE.
jerry
YOU TOO, JERRY!!….ENJOY THE GAME…Alice
Ann B: I am a “gay”. I am Christian. I am still marginalized in most areas of society. I am not accepted by members of my own family much less my old church. David’s mention of “gays” is anything but condescending and I appreciate his occasional recognition that the church in general does not grant us “full status, rights and privileges.” Just thought you might want to know.
The things you miss when you don’t read comments.
Just a couple of quick comments.
Gays are marginalized . . . and hated, reviled, made fun of, used for fundraising for conservative churches and on and on and on.
I do not agree with EVERYTHING David says (however, I can’t remember what I don’t agree with right now) but as a member of a Mainline Protestant church, his cartoons, are right on MOST of the time.
And come on people, do you really think God doesn’t have a funny bone?
Peace
I’ve enjoyed coming here every now and then though I don’t always have time.
I like some of David’s posts and cartoons and shake my head at some of them too.
Most of all I keep coming here because of my need to be taken out of my comfort zone.
My faith needs to be questioned and challenged regularly as it gets tainted by my interpretations and visiting Naked pastor is one good way of doing that as studying the bible, learning to hear God more and meeting the faithful regularly are other ways.
Thanks!
thanks thebutler and priscilla… and others too! hope you come back often!
Alice, if you have a problem with the way that Andrew and Mustard conducted themselves, first go and speak to them in secret… etc.
It has been my unfortunate experience (on several occassions) that people misinterpret others when voicing disagreements on the internet (tone is usually the quickest to suffer this fate). In the worst case, I catalysed a man’s nervous breakdown by voicing a disagreement online in the most strenuously diplomatic way I could possibly manage.
I think that example may speak a lot into what happened on this thread. Things were said without realising that one must be very explicit about the intended tone of a comment on the internet. A multitude of people interpretted various things in various ways and presumed that everyone else saw what they saw. If I had spoken to that man in person to say what I said, I expect that we would’ve walked away as new friends. Despite my best efforts, the things I said were not understood as I intended them to be.
I guess what I want to say is that we should try to be mindful of the fact that it’s far too easy to make negative internal attributions about comments on the internet. One implication of this is that it is good to presume the best of people. Instead of (perhaps rightly) taking issue with them, clarifications should be sought and the possible truth of their comment must be explored. A lot of extra mental and cyber legwork, but it beats the legwork of speaking face-to-face.
herbeey…you totally missed the point as to what I was saying, Andrew and mustard seed chose the public venue, not I…and on the blog, most anything goes. Also, they were not my former pastor that I was choosing to take pot shots at in a public forum…Andrew was making threatening remarks. And, mustard seed DID cause great pain to someone whose emotional state is rather shaky. Neither of them much cared what was going on in the discussion, or who was discussing…they each had an agenda and wished to promote it. Mustard seed was whining that people weren’t being nice to her and that someone had unfriended her on face book etc. etc. etc. My point was that if they had taken their agendas and handled them scripturaly, none of this would have happened. Lets hang the pastor lynch mob mentality activities are inexcusable.
preacherlady said, on January 7th, 2010 at 2:30 am
herbeey…you totally missed the point as to what I was saying, Andrew and mustard seed chose the public venue, not I…and on the blog, most anything goes. Also, they were not my former pastor that I was choosing to take pot shots at in a public forum…Andrew was making threatening remarks. And, mustard seed DID cause great pain to someone whose emotional state is rather shaky. Neither of them much cared what was going on in the discussion, or who was discussing…they each had an agenda and wished to promote it. Mustard seed was whining that people weren’t being nice to her and that someone had unfriended her on face book etc. etc. etc. My point was that if they had taken their agendas and handled them scripturaly, none of this would have happened. Lets hang the pastor lynch mob mentality activities are inexcusable.
———-Assuming all that is true, does that mean that you shouldn’t follow the biblical mandate as to how to handle it? You seem to be preaching a biblical mandate to them? You certainly took them to task for not being biblical in how they conducted themselves.
You: they each had an agenda and wished to promote it.
———–If that is a bad thing then most of us on here is guilty of that.
YOU: And, mustard seed DID cause great pain to someone whose emotional state is rather shaky.
———–Alice, if that is a reason to go after mustard, and apparently it is because you site it, well then, maybe, just maybe you can understand why I and a few others battle so hard with David. Much of what he teaches with his words and thoughts and his drawings can cause great pain and confusion to a brand new or immature, weak Christian.
Hey, maybe mustard and Andrew are in a rather shaky emotional state–and you were/are might hard on them. Do you just assume they are mature Christians and not in need of your gentle words and touch——just like t–y?
jerry
jerry…take a look at the whole situation from step one…I just addressed it on today’s cartoon site…David wrote a thank you to his commenters…Andrew comes in out of left field railing against David…that was the first comment…others tried to wish David happy new year etc. and Andrew comes back in with more junk. It all could have been pretty much ignored until mustard seed decided to defend him…I will reserve my feelings about that…I was able to discern just who/what they were…he basically a non church goer who thinks he knows everything about church and she a whiner that can’t see that just because it was time to move on it wasn’t necessary that someone be in the wrong. My whole point to her was that if she was going to charge in here and start smearing David…and smearing him is different than the sort of challenge that you give him…and when you are questioning him remember that you are his peer, not a disgruntled exparishoner…she should expect anything she got and had no cause to be whining…we play rough in here…if she wanted to be treated with respect and love, she needed to deal with it by biblical standards. Once they brought it to an open forum they were fair game By the way, have you been in touch with our friend?. The holidays have been rough. As far as David’s stuff causing confusion and pain to a new Christians… I think in the balance he does more good than harm and there are some people who are coming around who wouldn’t be if they weren’t free to express doubts etc….also to know that ministers have questions too. In a few weeks I’ll be starting a blog and some of it may get more freewheeling than this in that I insist that everyone;s path be honored…honored, not believed in. This tack has been quite effective in working with pagans, wiccans, and several people who have joined some questionable new age groups…like the mother of a friend who after years as a pentacostal became a scientologist…were still working on that one…time to go to bed. shalom…Alice…I wish you, your wife and children and the marvelous sounding group of people you pastor a blessed and prosperous new year!
Alice,
By the way, have you been in touch with our friend?.
———No, I haven’t. But your nugget of the thought moves me to try.
As far as David’s stuff causing confusion and pain to a new Christians… I think in the balance he does more good than harm and there are some people who are coming around who wouldn’t be if they weren’t free to express doubts etc….
———I guess there a a thousand ways to look at it.
also to know that ministers have questions too.
———Oh, a few.
In a few weeks I’ll be starting a blog and some of it may get more freewheeling than this in that I insist that everyone;s path be honored…honored, not believed in.
———So how do you mean honored? Does telling someone they are wrong mean no honor?
Alice…I wish you, your wife and children and the marvelous sounding group of people you pastor a blessed and prosperous new year!
———And to you as well, Alice
jerry [fishon]
First time visiting this blog.. and I am speechless..I think I love ya’ll!!! could not tear myself away from this particular thread…loved to see the people working hard to work it out..it was beautiful..and imperfect (which, ironically, is just how God must see us ! ) I’ll be back..
I guess it all depends on where your faith is. The problem is, you can’t run a church as a business, and also follow the teachings of Jesus. As Jesus says: “No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.” (Matthew 6:24). Elsewhere (Joshua 24:15) it says, “… choose this day whom ye will serve…” It’s either/or. You can’t have both.
So you can have a business, or you can have a church. Take your pick.
We already have plenty of highly successful businesses masquerading as churches. There are plenty of those to go around. What we need are more Rothesay Vineyards, those unbusinesslike places where Spirit is the main focus.
I wish all of you a happy New Year.
Wow, that is a lot of comments.
If I might address a comment about if or if not the Vineyard knows about David’s blog. Can I say yes? In fact I know David is well known and even liked in the Canadian Vineyard. I suspect you might have a similar reaction if you read my blog as well. I think you might want to consider that the Vineyard is a neo-evangelical (neo-pentecostal) denomination and so is part of an internal critique of fundamentalist Christianity. The main point of this critique is that Fundamentalism goes too far in creating a segregated community and has lost its ability to communicate effectively to the culture. The unrest over that loss of cultural currency has spawned a great deal of important theological reflection – and it has led to movements, like the Vineyard, which value cultural relevancy. That should not be read as cultural complicity or pandering to the culture – but rather a genuine desire to speak and worship in ways that will reach into the culture with God’s great love. The Vineyard is particular in that it contains a fair bit of diversity, but we rally around a common set of values (those are readily available on any or our national websites – if you are really interested). Those values do not extend to issues you may or may not find uncomfortable (such as issues of gay rights), but encourage us as Vineyard leaders to navigate the complexities of culture with a core of what we consider to be the main and plain of the gospel.
BTW David, I love your list.
Thanks Frank. Well said.
David – I just caught up on all the posts from today (jan. 29) till this one.
Thank you for the part you play in the Body of Christ. It isn’t a part everyone is called to play – but seems very much to be the one God has asked you to play. Thanks for taking the risks. Thanks for articulating what aches and mourns in many other hearts – of those deeply in love with Jesus – but often deeply hurt or frustrated by the church, religion, spirit of empire etc. The song you sing invites others who long and deeply desire what cannot yet be experienced in fullness – and frankly is often experienced in seemingly famine-parched dribbles – to connect and remember that it is in relationship and choosing unity in diversity that we most see the face of Christ. Just maybe in our post-modern milieu it is the honest artistic voice/song that embodies the sacramental in a way empty traditions no longer can.
I pray deep encouragement for you David – and a fruitful adventure in 2010 for RV and NP.
Thanks Wendy.
Happy Belated New Year! I have just found out about NP and had been looking through the archives when I stumbled upon this thread. Unbelievable….and so sad that things could escalate like that. We do not have to have 100% agreement on things in order to walk in unity.
Thanks for your posts and cartoons brother,
Shalom
P.S. Depending on your taste, I bought you a case or so. Don’t drink them all at one time…unless you can do it without getting drunk