Maybe loving God is like dealing with your father or the mafia. He has some good characteristics ofcourse sometimes. The problem is you are his child and had no choice in that. You are not in a position of power. You are not equal to him.
So you have to learn how to deal with him. You need him in lots of ways. You don’t want to provoke that nasty side you are very aware he has. As far as God, for example, he’s your heavenly father-but he’s a father who’s threatened to throw you in hell to burn forever if you don’t love him. If you’re smart, you try to love him and please him. This is his set-up. You must survive within it.
Sorta like managing an abusvie father here on earth. You want him so bad to be like the father in Andy Griffith. But he’s not. He’s a jerk. But you love him cause he’s your father, and you spend your whole life trying to get some love and attention from him.
Which never comes, because he just usually goes on being who he is. So you go to therapy to try to understand it all and come to terms and peace about it.
Now, if you were fortunate enough to grow up in a family with mature parents, you may be thinking “Boy, this woman’s negative and has issues. She has such a warped view of God.” I’d say that I represent not just myself but many, many people.
We had a bad father relationship, then of course married someone similar. Other Christian women try to help by saying “Let God be your husand, let God be your father.” It didn’t work, but I tried for many years to do that.
I finally saw I was trying to have a relationship with yet another person who doesn’t talk to you and is not there for you. I got tired of talking to the air and pretending there was someone up there who actually gave a ***** about me and my life.
So, yes, who I am and my experiences certainly are a great influence on how I see God. I’m aware of that. But the whole God set-up is basically like dealing with a neglectful parent in my opinion.
Others seem to see God as actually being like the Andy Griffith father. Whether he actually is is another story-or even if he actually exists. But in their mind, they focus on his love-sent Jesus to die for us-what love. They see all the love and wonderfulness in him.
I’d say a case can be made for both sides from the Bible. So take your pick. Also you have to believe the Bible is the word of God and totally reliable. I’ve studied too much to believe that any longer.
Someone described Christopher Hitchens as someone who says, “There is no God and I hate him.” It’s a funny remark, but I understand the concept very well.
So, do I love God? No, but I tried a long time. Do I like God? No, but I tried a long time. If there IS a God, I’m certainly at his mercy, and he will do with me as he pleases. So be it.
Lynn, your experience may run parallel to mine in places. I would be interested in reading some details if you care to share with me. If you like, I have a brief journal ( http://i-smell-smoke.blogspot.com/2007_07_22_archive.html ) on line that chronicles some of my thoughts as I went from fundamentalist to atheist. I would like your thoughts if / when you care to share.
I love God and never thought about the issue of liking Him.
He isn’t a father replacement or male figure for me. In fact, I say “He” but I don’t think of God as gender specific. The way I see God is more in keeping with the description of the Lord in the Bhagavad Gita.
According to the Calvinists, He chose his children before the world began and died for them. They are called “the Elect.” They are very happy that they are the elect. They were chosen. And there are lots of verses to back them up on that.
Steve, there was really no need to respond to my joke with a bit of preaching – it somewhat deflates it for me and I was trying to lift myself out of boredom.
Well there are very few elect in England, because we have hardly any Calvinists. A few more in Scotland where they have rather a reputation for grimness and dourness. I’ve never come across a Calvinist church in England – not sure there ARE any. Maybe one in London for Swedish people, or was it Danish?
You intrigue me-you being in England. My mother was a York, and my father was a Roberts. So I think she was English and he was Scottish. Correct me if that doesn’t sound right.
All I know is that when I’ve heard the British described, I thought-those are my people! No wonder I can’t relate to these Italians, etc. I’m not like them. I’m like the British, cause that’s where my ancestors came from.
I grew up in North Carolina as a Baptist. Then came into contact with Calvinism in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. It was very disturbing at first, but actually fits pretty well with the Bible. So I have both backgrounds-Arminian and Calvinist.
I guess I think that if Christianity IS true-which it very well may not be-I was born into it but am not of the elect actually. A distressing position. No wonder it’s caused me such frustration and unhappiness.
Yes, Roberts or Robertson is more common in Scotland, but you get people in England with that name too. As you probably know, York is in northern England in Yorkshire.
Why were you amongst Italians?
I think Baptists here are a lot less extreme than in America, esp those in the American South. I would imagine growing up in that position would be very psychologically damaging.
My family are nominally Church of England, but not religious at all. We went to Sunday School as kids because that was what people did at that time – it got t hem off their mother’s hands for a bit so she could get on with cooking the Sunday lunch. My parents never went to church. I do feel safer in the Anglican church than in others because I know it’s a broad enough church that you’re less likely to get condemned for what you do or do not believe.
Some Anglican churches are very Catholic, ’smells and bells’ with ancient liturgies and ornate robes, while others are very Evangelical chorus singing places. I was horrified the other day when I went to a service I thought would be quite traditional and it turned out to have no liturgy and involve singing along to incredibly naff, limp choruses sung on cd by some girl with a lisp. These songs did not at all reflect how I relate to God and are what the more cynical amongst us call ‘Jesus is my boyfriend’ songs – in other words a lot of sentimental mush where people claim a rather too human type of relationship with God
I think a lot of the more Evangelical Anglicans would be very surprised to find out what some of the Anglican clergy believe. Our current Archbishop of Canterbury, the had of the C of E, is actually an ‘ordained’ druid because he’s a poet and that’s all tied up with poetry competitions in Wales. His poems are really good, but his other writing, which tends to be sociological, is very boring. He’s what is known here as a bit of a beardy-weirdy. I think a lot of people expected him to be more liberal than he has been, but he sees his role as keeping the church together when it divides on controversial issues like women priests and gay clergy.
There are an awful lot of gay clergy in the C of E, especially at the high church end and t he church has had to allow for them to be in civil partnerships with their same sex partners and share church accomodation, whilst never explicitly acknowledging that these are sexual relationships – a typical Anglican compromise and a very English, ‘we won’t mention it’ way of dealing with a situation.
Part of me is very English and part of me is much more ‘Eastern’. I don’t know if that’s because I’m half Yemeni or because I’m very strongly intuitive. I’m considered to be more open and unreserved than most English people, more inclined to show my emotions. In what way do you feel more English than Italian?
Those Calvinists that believe God only dies for the elect would do well to re-read the Bible and see that “God so loved the world…” (to me that is everyone)
Thanks so much for all the info. I’ll have to have my sister read it. We love getting background about our family.
I mentioned Italians because I was around them for the first time in Philly. Plus my mother-in-law is Italian. They seem to be more dramatic, more sure of their own opinions, a little loud. I’m much more reserved. I’m big on respect and politeness in public. No put-down of Italians. They are wonderful people if they like you. I find them a little scary when they aren’t happy with you. But I scare easily anyway.
Loved hearing about your churches over there. I too am attracted to the traditional, majesty type church service, although I’ve never experienced those much. I’ve had lots of experience with the awful choruses!
I laughed at your description of how they handle gay pastors-”we won’t dwell on that.” Sounds like an English thing, and I can relate. Like “it would be rude to speak of it.” lol
I also like language and the wonderful talent the British have for it.
And, yes, I attribute part of my psychological damage to my Baptist church in the South. Someone should write a book on that-probably already have.
steve martin (You’re not THE steve martin, are you?) -just kidding
I think the Calvinists would say “the world” means ” more than just the Jews”, if I remember right.
Looking around the world: does it LOOK to you like God loves everybody? Does it even look like he loves Christians?
Do you honestly believe he died for all the Muslims who were born into their religion and would have a heck of a time switching? Or for the Hindus or Buddhists? Wouldn’t they have a hard time switching also? Seems he gave them a hard row to hoe.
Not many people believe the Christian faith so God hasn’t done very well in my estimations and h e hasn’t done very well by US. And he started this mess, knowing exactly what would happen. Wasn’t it a bit dumb to stick two naive people in a garden with a tempting snake and expect them not to be tempted? He was outside of time; he knew it would happen. And then we get the blame? That story really doesn’t work.
Please don’t use words like ‘awesomeness’ to describe God. Americans describe very mundane t hings as ‘awesome’ and it sounds so ‘Bill and Ted’.
The reason I asked if God loves some more than others is that there is the parable of the lost lamb. Doesn’t it say something like he loves that lamb more, or is it just it gives him more joy?
If Christians are God’s children, isn’t there sibling rivalry? Don’t they compete with each other? They all want to be the favorite? They check to make sure no one got a bigger piece than they did?
Plus God definitely chooses some people over other people per the Bible. And God can do whatever he wants cause he’s God. And he doesn’t appreciate questions, I don’t think.
steve martin,
You said again that God loves all of us. He created us. Well, he told certain groups to kill other groups in the Bible and also wiped out the whole human race in the flood, so…oh yeah, and most of his creation will burn in hell forever, but, no doubt, he does love us all. Makes total sense.
And don’t tell me he’s up there weeping over our bad choices. To me, that’s the most ridiculous, impotent-sounding God that comes to my mind when someone says that. It’s absurd. An earthly father can surely weep in sorrow because he has limited control to change things.
God has total control of the whole shabang.. So why would he ever need to weep?
And steve, I’m not being hostile, I’m just feeling passionate about these ideas. Nothing personal at all. Hope you don’t feel attacked.
David Hayward is a pastor artistically stripping to the essential.
I have a feeling he feels the same way about me most days.
Maybe loving God is like dealing with your father or the mafia. He has some good characteristics ofcourse sometimes. The problem is you are his child and had no choice in that. You are not in a position of power. You are not equal to him.
So you have to learn how to deal with him. You need him in lots of ways. You don’t want to provoke that nasty side you are very aware he has. As far as God, for example, he’s your heavenly father-but he’s a father who’s threatened to throw you in hell to burn forever if you don’t love him. If you’re smart, you try to love him and please him. This is his set-up. You must survive within it.
Sorta like managing an abusvie father here on earth. You want him so bad to be like the father in Andy Griffith. But he’s not. He’s a jerk. But you love him cause he’s your father, and you spend your whole life trying to get some love and attention from him.
Which never comes, because he just usually goes on being who he is. So you go to therapy to try to understand it all and come to terms and peace about it.
Now, if you were fortunate enough to grow up in a family with mature parents, you may be thinking “Boy, this woman’s negative and has issues. She has such a warped view of God.” I’d say that I represent not just myself but many, many people.
We had a bad father relationship, then of course married someone similar. Other Christian women try to help by saying “Let God be your husand, let God be your father.” It didn’t work, but I tried for many years to do that.
I finally saw I was trying to have a relationship with yet another person who doesn’t talk to you and is not there for you. I got tired of talking to the air and pretending there was someone up there who actually gave a ***** about me and my life.
So, yes, who I am and my experiences certainly are a great influence on how I see God. I’m aware of that. But the whole God set-up is basically like dealing with a neglectful parent in my opinion.
Others seem to see God as actually being like the Andy Griffith father. Whether he actually is is another story-or even if he actually exists. But in their mind, they focus on his love-sent Jesus to die for us-what love. They see all the love and wonderfulness in him.
I’d say a case can be made for both sides from the Bible. So take your pick. Also you have to believe the Bible is the word of God and totally reliable. I’ve studied too much to believe that any longer.
Someone described Christopher Hitchens as someone who says, “There is no God and I hate him.” It’s a funny remark, but I understand the concept very well.
So, do I love God? No, but I tried a long time. Do I like God? No, but I tried a long time. If there IS a God, I’m certainly at his mercy, and he will do with me as he pleases. So be it.
Lynn, your experience may run parallel to mine in places. I would be interested in reading some details if you care to share with me. If you like, I have a brief journal ( http://i-smell-smoke.blogspot.com/2007_07_22_archive.html ) on line that chronicles some of my thoughts as I went from fundamentalist to atheist. I would like your thoughts if / when you care to share.
r.u.reasonable@gmail.com
I like the idea of the Mafia – imagines Rubelov’s Trinity icon with the three of them wearing dark glasses. Or should I say the one of them?
Tiggy,
Yes, like the Mafia. The “relationship” is mainly based on power and fear.
Thanks, Bob. I’ll check it out.
I love God and never thought about the issue of liking Him.
He isn’t a father replacement or male figure for me. In fact, I say “He” but I don’t think of God as gender specific. The way I see God is more in keeping with the description of the Lord in the Bhagavad Gita.
We may not always love Him, or like Him…
But He always loves us (even though He may not always like us).
steve martin,
How do you know he loves us? And does he love all of us or just his children?
Did I ask that question about whether God loves some more than others? I can’t remember if I did or not – it was when we were discussing parables.
God loves us all.
Go so loved the world that he sent His only Son into the world.
‘Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so.’
But many reject that love.
Yes, but does he love some more than others?
Maybe.
But that He loves me at all is comforting, because so much of the time I am rebellious and unloving of Him, and my neighbors.
Oh, is there something wrong with your neighbours then? Do they make a lot of noise and park across your driveway?
Yep. There is something wrong with my neighbors, as there is something wrong with me.
It’s that selfishness that is a part of each of us to one degree or another. (aka sin)
According to the Calvinists, He chose his children before the world began and died for them. They are called “the Elect.” They are very happy that they are the elect. They were chosen. And there are lots of verses to back them up on that.
An elitist religious group – now there’s a new thing! Oh how great to be the chosen ones.
Steve, there was really no need to respond to my joke with a bit of preaching – it somewhat deflates it for me and I was trying to lift myself out of boredom.
Tiggy,
It’s sort of a dirty little secret. They keep it in the background. Might offend people.
Well there are very few elect in England, because we have hardly any Calvinists. A few more in Scotland where they have rather a reputation for grimness and dourness. I’ve never come across a Calvinist church in England – not sure there ARE any. Maybe one in London for Swedish people, or was it Danish?
Tiggy,
You intrigue me-you being in England. My mother was a York, and my father was a Roberts. So I think she was English and he was Scottish. Correct me if that doesn’t sound right.
All I know is that when I’ve heard the British described, I thought-those are my people! No wonder I can’t relate to these Italians, etc. I’m not like them. I’m like the British, cause that’s where my ancestors came from.
I grew up in North Carolina as a Baptist. Then came into contact with Calvinism in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. It was very disturbing at first, but actually fits pretty well with the Bible. So I have both backgrounds-Arminian and Calvinist.
I guess I think that if Christianity IS true-which it very well may not be-I was born into it but am not of the elect actually. A distressing position. No wonder it’s caused me such frustration and unhappiness.
Are you in the Church of England?
Yes, Roberts or Robertson is more common in Scotland, but you get people in England with that name too. As you probably know, York is in northern England in Yorkshire.
Why were you amongst Italians?
I think Baptists here are a lot less extreme than in America, esp those in the American South. I would imagine growing up in that position would be very psychologically damaging.
My family are nominally Church of England, but not religious at all. We went to Sunday School as kids because that was what people did at that time – it got t hem off their mother’s hands for a bit so she could get on with cooking the Sunday lunch. My parents never went to church. I do feel safer in the Anglican church than in others because I know it’s a broad enough church that you’re less likely to get condemned for what you do or do not believe.
Some Anglican churches are very Catholic, ’smells and bells’ with ancient liturgies and ornate robes, while others are very Evangelical chorus singing places. I was horrified the other day when I went to a service I thought would be quite traditional and it turned out to have no liturgy and involve singing along to incredibly naff, limp choruses sung on cd by some girl with a lisp. These songs did not at all reflect how I relate to God and are what the more cynical amongst us call ‘Jesus is my boyfriend’ songs – in other words a lot of sentimental mush where people claim a rather too human type of relationship with God
I think a lot of the more Evangelical Anglicans would be very surprised to find out what some of the Anglican clergy believe. Our current Archbishop of Canterbury, the had of the C of E, is actually an ‘ordained’ druid because he’s a poet and that’s all tied up with poetry competitions in Wales. His poems are really good, but his other writing, which tends to be sociological, is very boring. He’s what is known here as a bit of a beardy-weirdy. I think a lot of people expected him to be more liberal than he has been, but he sees his role as keeping the church together when it divides on controversial issues like women priests and gay clergy.
There are an awful lot of gay clergy in the C of E, especially at the high church end and t he church has had to allow for them to be in civil partnerships with their same sex partners and share church accomodation, whilst never explicitly acknowledging that these are sexual relationships – a typical Anglican compromise and a very English, ‘we won’t mention it’ way of dealing with a situation.
Part of me is very English and part of me is much more ‘Eastern’. I don’t know if that’s because I’m half Yemeni or because I’m very strongly intuitive. I’m considered to be more open and unreserved than most English people, more inclined to show my emotions. In what way do you feel more English than Italian?
Those Calvinists that believe God only dies for the elect would do well to re-read the Bible and see that “God so loved the world…” (to me that is everyone)
Sorry, Tiggy!
If you had my neighbors…it might not seem too funny.
…” (to me that is everyone)(Stevo)
You forgot to mention “but only the ones who believe”. I know, Im nitpicking.
TfT,
Not quite.
He loves all. He died for all.
But many reject Him and for whatever reason, do not come to faith.
But many reject Him and for whatever reason, do not come to faith.(Stevo)
Thats true, and because of his awesomeness, he allows them there free choice and lets them go to hell forever. Or something like that.
Something like that.
He does give some faith, though, through the hearing of His gospel.
Why some come to faith, and others do not, is the question.
When we get up there, Lord willing, we can ask Him all about it.
Tiggy,
Thanks so much for all the info. I’ll have to have my sister read it. We love getting background about our family.
I mentioned Italians because I was around them for the first time in Philly. Plus my mother-in-law is Italian. They seem to be more dramatic, more sure of their own opinions, a little loud. I’m much more reserved. I’m big on respect and politeness in public. No put-down of Italians. They are wonderful people if they like you. I find them a little scary when they aren’t happy with you. But I scare easily anyway.
Loved hearing about your churches over there. I too am attracted to the traditional, majesty type church service, although I’ve never experienced those much. I’ve had lots of experience with the awful choruses!
I laughed at your description of how they handle gay pastors-”we won’t dwell on that.” Sounds like an English thing, and I can relate. Like “it would be rude to speak of it.” lol
I also like language and the wonderful talent the British have for it.
And, yes, I attribute part of my psychological damage to my Baptist church in the South. Someone should write a book on that-probably already have.
steve martin (You’re not THE steve martin, are you?) -just kidding
I think the Calvinists would say “the world” means ” more than just the Jews”, if I remember right.
Looking around the world: does it LOOK to you like God loves everybody? Does it even look like he loves Christians?
Do you honestly believe he died for all the Muslims who were born into their religion and would have a heck of a time switching? Or for the Hindus or Buddhists? Wouldn’t they have a hard time switching also? Seems he gave them a hard row to hoe.
Not many people believe the Christian faith so God hasn’t done very well in my estimations and h e hasn’t done very well by US. And he started this mess, knowing exactly what would happen. Wasn’t it a bit dumb to stick two naive people in a garden with a tempting snake and expect them not to be tempted? He was outside of time; he knew it would happen. And then we get the blame? That story really doesn’t work.
Please don’t use words like ‘awesomeness’ to describe God. Americans describe very mundane t hings as ‘awesome’ and it sounds so ‘Bill and Ted’.
Lynn,
One of thousands os Steve Martins!
God loves everyone. He created us.
He may not be happy with everyone, though.
Don’t look at the way things are as proof of that love..look at the cross.
Well everyone may not be happy with HIm!
The reason I asked if God loves some more than others is that there is the parable of the lost lamb. Doesn’t it say something like he loves that lamb more, or is it just it gives him more joy?
If Christians are God’s children, isn’t there sibling rivalry? Don’t they compete with each other? They all want to be the favorite? They check to make sure no one got a bigger piece than they did?
Plus God definitely chooses some people over other people per the Bible. And God can do whatever he wants cause he’s God. And he doesn’t appreciate questions, I don’t think.
steve martin,
You said again that God loves all of us. He created us. Well, he told certain groups to kill other groups in the Bible and also wiped out the whole human race in the flood, so…oh yeah, and most of his creation will burn in hell forever, but, no doubt, he does love us all. Makes total sense.
And don’t tell me he’s up there weeping over our bad choices. To me, that’s the most ridiculous, impotent-sounding God that comes to my mind when someone says that. It’s absurd. An earthly father can surely weep in sorrow because he has limited control to change things.
God has total control of the whole shabang.. So why would he ever need to weep?
And steve, I’m not being hostile, I’m just feeling passionate about these ideas. Nothing personal at all. Hope you don’t feel attacked.
Lynn,
No offense taken.
I was just relating what the Bible says about God and His love.
Jesus wept. (the shortest verse in the Bible, by the way)