Here are some serious questions I should consider if I am interested in living in the unity which I believe is already ours yet to be manifested:
- Do I truly believe that everyone has the right to their own beliefs or lack thereof?
- Can I respect the person, even though I may not respect their ideas?
- Do I have the capacity to recognize my own fallacies?
- Will it kill me if I were wrong?
- Am I able to hold what I believe is truth lightly in the interest of dialog?
- Can I overlook and maybe even appreciate the idiosyncrasies of others in order to hear what they have to say?
- Am I willing to discern the deeper currents rather than being distracted by the surface ripples?
- Can everyone play? In other words, will I not ostracize someone because of their beliefs or lack thereof?
- Is personal harm to others the only prohibition I am willing to make?
- Do I love all beings, and if not, am I willing?
I could go on, but a list of 10 is a good start.
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artist. cartoonist. teacher.
fishon…over the past 30 odd years, I’ve been to several hundred churches…from legalistic men sit on one side and women on the other with their heads covered to new thought and universalist…and most everything in between.Maybe a dozen times…maybe…have I heard a sermon based on the teachings of Jesus.Most sermons are either from a lectionary or from Paul…usually about church discipline…or about how to get stuff…how to get God to answer prayer to give you what you want.Lots of them are about the submission of women, particularly in regard to marriage…then there are the salvation messages…some of them make me want to throw up because they are so manipulative…but non of these stress what a walk with Jesus is. What does it mean to accept Jesus as your personal saviour? What does it mean to fo;;ow Jesus? Forgiveness isn’t stressed as much as you would think…the only church I’ve heard pray for enemies is the catholic church and thats to convert them to catholocism…judgement isn’t only not preached against, its prevelant from the pulpit…you’d be amazed at the condemnation that comes from pulpits…and usually about another denomination. You seem to have some preconcieved notions about what I think, and quite often, you’re wrong. Love is explained in 1 cor 13…patient, kind, not revelling in anothers misfortune. Jesus described it only “..as I have loved you”. What my whole point is, is that churches who claim to be Christian, don’t teach the teachings of Jesus, and if they do, its selective and overshadowed by other things.
fishon…I should add…I live in a world class city with a diverse population….all the big preachers from every denomination pass through here…and before I came here, I was in Rhode Island, so there was all of New England, New York city and upstate New York. I.ve had the opportunity to hear what the churches have been saying. I didn’t know for a long time that I’d be dealing with those who have been bruised by churches, but the background of knowing whats going on has been essential. Some of the things I’ve heard come from pulpits would amaze you, and unless you heard it first hand you’d think the person who was hurt by it was a certified nut case. You in many ways are blessed to be in a small town. I think I’ve said before that if you went in a 2 mile radius of my house you could find every cult imaginable, animal sacrifice…lotsof it between Santeria and the African cults…every abomination you can think of…sex slavery, child labor, indentured servitude…gang killings, drugs…you name it…these people need the words of Jesus…they apply, no matter what your station in life.
Alice, not much for me to say about your experiences. You and your experiences are certainly of a different world than mine. And I wouldn’t trade places for a moment.
YOU said: if you went in a 2 mile radius of my house you could find every cult imaginable, animal sacrifice…lotsof it between Santeria and the African cults…every abomination you can think of…sex slavery, child labor, indentured servitude…gang killings, drugs…you name it
———-And you say you live in a world class city. I would guess then that your idea of a world class city and mine are quite different, as you describe just a 2 mile radius from your house.
———-So we end the conversation as we started it. You think me wrong, I think you wrong. But then, maybe it is just the two different worlds we live in.
From the small town, world class city of 380 folks,
fishon
fishon…how did this become a matter of who is right and who is wrong?It could very well be the two different worlds we live in. No, its not my idea of a world class city, its what it is by definition…Chicago is the 3′d largest city in the country. Don’t think there aren’t days when I wish I was in a small town and the ministry had a totally different flavor, but then I wouldn’t have had some of the magnificent experiences that I’ve had. Feeding the homeless on the streets was one of the most amazing experiences in my life. We think God sends us out there to help them…and He does…but we are the ones who benefit the most. The Divine Presence that is with you or that you encounter is awe inspiring. Once we took a woman who wasn’t a Christian with us and she described the experience like this “…something magic happens when you hand them a lunch…its like an angel comes to visit…” Each of us has the place that was assigned to us. I came out to Chicago for a secular job…one that was supposed to last ten weeks…that was 29 years ago. This is where I was called to, and this is where I stayed. But I’m way off the subject. A friend and I were talking earlier and we agreed that it was possible to spend forever giving bible based sermons and never broach the teachings of Jesus and yet have people think you were a marvellous preacher. A lot of people do just that.
preacherlady,
Reading your post made me happy for some reason. Thinking about the happy feeling you could have handing someone food. And not thinking thoughts of judging them, just respecting them as another human being with issues who are trying to get through life-just as we are.
I’ve lived several places, but am basically a loner and have lived a sheltered life really. I’ve been around mainly church people all my life.
By the way, my daughter is in grad school in Chicago. She likes living there. I’ve never been there. Hope to visit in the future somehow.
David,
Calling you nakedpastor was making me feel quite uneasy, so…! ha. Anyway, I think you’ve got an interesting set-up here with the mix. It has the feel of a small group of quite diverse people. I have no idea how many read only and get upset. I do feel like I need to be sort of careful in what I write because I don’t want to offend the Christians here. I do respect them. And hope to get respect and maybe even genuine interest from them.
I was comparing how I feel in this group to how I felt on facebook discussing religion. I posted on a Christian’s page and felt quite alone cause all others were on his side. I know for a fact I upset someone, which made me feel bad. Anyway, this seems much more enjoyable. Maybe it’s because the people seem a little more genuinely open to actually communicating with each other. I could be wrong, but that’s the feeling I have, anyway.
And maybe it’s the fact that we can’t get a handle on you. You put up some stuff that’s very Christian sentimental to me, and I can’t relate and feel slightly annoyed. Then you put up something that agnostics/atheists can really say “Yeah!” and I really get into it. So maybe your approach makes both sides feel accepted and at least somewhat at home and understood.
Its so interesting that as soon as someone presents a list of questions, people feel the need to respond with a list of answers.
I just don’t think any of these questions are that simple.
Things like … will it kill me if I’m wrong? I could say no, but that’s just my ideal. I’ve been wrong before, and its frustrated me. So, maybe it would, maybe it wouldn’t.
I think these are all questions that we can practice at, and constantly be thinking about when we’re living together and dialoging. I don’t think I’m terrible at all of these things, but I think pretending like I know the answers to ALL of these questions would be pretty self righteous of me. I struggle with these things in my community on a regular basis, and I’ve been living in my community for years.
I think questions comfort me more than answers do, because we all have more questions than we do answers, even if we fake the opposite. That’s my faith is comforting, not scary.
Alex said: I think these are all questions that we can practice at, and constantly be thinking about when we’re living together and dialoging. I don’t think I’m terrible at all of these things, but I think pretending like I know the answers to ALL of these questions would be pretty self righteous of me.
——————-So, Alex, is it self righteous of those who have an answer?
YOU: I just don’t think any of these questions are that simple.
Things like … will it kill me if I’m wrong? I could say no, but that’s just my ideal.
———————Might it be that the question resonates differently for you than for someone else? For you the question may very well illicit more questions; however, for me the question is simple and straighforward, therefore the answer is easy.
YOU:Its so interesting that as soon as someone presents a list of questions, people feel the need to respond with a list of answers.
————–Surely you don’t think David asked or asks questions in a vacum? He is trying to get answers. And some folks may have already thought of the questions and have their answers.
fishon
Alright sure I’ll go there.
fishon: So, Alex, is it self righteous of those who have an answer?
————– … Well, yes. Because you don’t have any answers to these questions. These questions aren’t a matter of right and wrong, they’re a list of questions we should be considering in our communities. For example, I can say that my answer to the first question is “Yes.” And I do believe that. But that answer only opens up another boat load of questions. For the people who believe religiously in human sacrifice, and the people who believe that women are lesser than men, to anyone homophobic OR homosexual, to the CHRISTIANS out there who don’t believe in the literal resurrection. to anyone that anyone could ever disagree with. That answer applies to them. So I really need to think about that question when I’m speaking to them, because even if I disagree with them … I need to be willing to hold the truth lightly in the interest of dialog (5).
you: Might it be that the question resonates differently for you than for someone else? For you the question may very well illicit more questions; however, for me the question is simple and straighforward, therefore the answer is easy.
————– Yes, it might be that the question resonates differently for me. But the fact that it does resonate differently should probably open up a whole new set questions for you too, not just for me, because you DID answer yes to the first question on this list, so its not about one person having the answer and the other not, its about two people having completely different answers and both believing them to be right. Then you have an issue, because who in that situation is self righteous? I guess we all are.
you: Surely you don’t think David asked or asks questions in a vacum? He is trying to get answers. And some folks may have already thought of the questions and have their answers.
————– I didn’t mean to imply that God never answers our questions, because that’s not at all what I said. I only meant that having answers that don’t lead to more questions is a pretty Godly quality, the kind I don’t think I’ll ever have. Which is why I take comfort in questions. The questions I’m asking don’t show me how far I have to go, they show me how far I’ve come with God.
It just always makes me uneasy when someone releases a list of answers to questions that gray at best, not black and white. If there’s anything I’ve learned, its to not pretend like I know anything about anything. Ever.
For Lynn!
I do agree. I feel like there’s a sense of openness in this discussion that’s quite welcoming. Most of the time, anyways. And i also agree with the fact that communities like this should be more open to non believers as well. And not just from a “Hey maybe we could convert them” perspective. I’m talking about from an entirely open, “we can still be connected as people even though you don’t believe in God” sort of perspective.
I learned this when someone in our community sent a message to us that said “How bibly do you think its going to be tonight? I kind of want to bring someone”. I got really upset, not just based on the fact that he asked “a question like that”, but that he was embarrassed of how bibly it might have been. It offended me at first.
But then I realized that he might be right. Maybe a service being to Bibly as opposed to being … Godly. Is and issue. Because God can take many more forms than just the Bible. God sits down with us when we eat if we invite him, so maybe having a family dinner all together is what a church service can look like.
I think you would love our community here in London, ON. Its not big, 20 or so, and not popular or anything trendy like that haha, but its full of wonderful, diverse people who all love each other despite their differences.
Alex said: It just always makes me uneasy when someone releases a list of answers to questions that gray at best, not black and white. If there’s anything I’ve learned, its to not pretend like I know anything about anything. Ever.
————If I understand you correctly, you have decided that most questions are gray, therefore can not have black and white answers. I just find it interesting that someone [you aren't the only one] who would declare David’s questions at only having gray area answers, can be so black and white in that declaration.
And one other thing, the questions where addressed to the individual. There were questions addressed to:::1.Do I truly believe that everyone has the right to their own beliefs or lack thereof?—————–So, do I believe? Yes, I believe. Not do we, you and I. So, Alex, no gray area———-If you maintain that my answer is gray, then you are trying to take control of MY answer.
fishon
Wow!
I love this list NP. I hear you!