cartoon: are we sitting on the solution?
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fishon said, “You know bob, you had better be right. If you are, I lose nothing, cause I will just be worm food just like you–however, if you are not right….”
If we were to take this as our reason for believing then we would be required to take into account every claim about god from all the different religions just in case. And many of them would be contradictory and would offend the god or gods of other belief systems.
There are couple aspects of this approach that are red flags for me. The first is that it is fear based, which makes it more of a superstition than a rational approach. And second, being fear based, it doesn’t seem very mature and it sounds like taunting.
And if we are talking about our ability to reason, rudeness has nothing to do with whether something is true or not. Being rude may inhibit the ability of our audience to hear because it engages the ego, but it becomes a problem of communication, not a problem of truth.
And in the context of maturity, it would seem to me that Christians would want to claim the higher ground by giving up the need to defend the ego since, supposedly, having Christ in one’s heart gives the Christian such peace. Plus, within the view of most Christians, atheists have an inferior value system, so it should be no surprise that they are rude, but on the other hand, Christianity has a “superior” value system and rudeness generally goes against that value system.
What it really comes down to, is that on a rational level, the rudeness of delivery has nothing to do with reason or truthfulness, unless one is claiming their belief makes them more loving and kind, then rudeness would seem to negate that claim.
Warning – Warning
Scriptures about “the thoughts of God towards man.”
If you do not like Bible verses please ignore.
They are a blessing to me and others.
All scripture is useful…
Jerimiah 29:11
For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD,
thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.
Isaiah 55:8
For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways,
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Psalm 139:17
How precious also are your thoughts unto me, O God!
how great is the sum of them!
Psalm 40:17
But I am poor and needy; yet the Lord thinketh upon me:
thou art my help and my deliverer; make no tarrying, O my God.
Philippians 4:8
Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest,
whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure,
whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report;
if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
—————————————
Scriptures about “the thoughts of man.”
If you don’t like Bible verses please ignore.
Genesis 6:5
And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth,
and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Psalm 94:11
The LORD knows the thoughts of man, that they are vanity.
Isaiah 55:7-9
Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts:…
For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways,
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Isaiah 65:2
I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people,
which walk in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;
Jeremiah 4:14
O Jerusalem, wash your heart from wickedness, that you may be saved.
How long shall your vain thoughts lodge within thee?
Jeremiah 6:19
Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people,
even the fruit of their thoughts,
because they have not hearkened unto my words,…
1Corinthians 3:20
And again, The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
Luke 12:25-26
And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit?
If you then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest?
Galations 6:3
For if a man think himself to be something,
when he is nothing,
he deceives himself.
Jesus answered and said unto them,
Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
Richard, for what it’s worth, I pretty much agree with all of your points. I just try (and try again) a slightly different approach, but as you can see from fishon’s response, it usually doesn’t work. Nothing works
fishon – “Hehehe, same old tired argument.”
1 – Probably more observation than argument. Sorry.
fishon – “Yep, all of us who became a believer later in life, came believers because we aren’t reasonable like ol bob. Millions and millions of us really need good ol bob to lead the way into reasonableness land.”
2 – I would be glad to offer any advice to any believer that asks of me. But you miss characterize my remarks. My observations deal with unreasonableness only with regard to religious beliefs. I doubt you need advice when it comes to navigating in traffic or thawing out some frozen hamburger, but in contemplating religious faith, I would be glad to advise….so, as per usual, your juvenile sarcasm is wasted.
fishon – “Yep, ol bob is the messiah of ‘reasonable justification’ and what that looks like. ”
3 – I never made such a claim.
fishon – “Let me see, I was reasonable in my thinking as a non-believer for 33 years, but suddenly became incapable of reason because I became a believer. ”
4 – See my comments (2) above.
fishon – “You know bob, you had better be right.”
5 – Right about what?
fishon – “If you are, I lose nothing, cause I will just be worm food just like you–however, if you are not right….”
6 – (yawn) Not sure what you are talking about due to your usual vagueness, but I’ll take a stab at it – If I am right, and there is no heaven and no hell, you, as a believer and minister lose nothing by wasting years and years of your life preaching a lie, and convincing hundreds, perhaps thousands to believe that same lie, and waste millions, no, billions of dollars to pay for the continued propagation of that lie…?
No thanks. I need a REASON to believe. I can’t believe – just in case – as you seem capable of doing.
As I hope, but doubt that you can see, your reasoning is faulty, just as I have been saying. I welcome your next sarcastic insult(s) though.
A. Amos Love posted a number of scriptures and I would like to comment on the practice of quoting scripture in this manner.
The word of god is often seen as the sword of the Christian and they are wielded as such, much like the casting of a spell. It is preached that there is power in the word of god.
The following scripture is often used when reason fails to provide an answer to a Christian theological paradox.
Isaiah 55:8
For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways,
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
This is what Russell’s Tea Pot calls the “mysterious ways clause.” This is often used to “explain” why the god of the OT would order the Israelites to kill everyone in the tribes around them except for the virgins, who they could rape as long as they took them for their wives. Or that god ordered Moses to stone to death a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath. In fact when you go through the laws given by god in the OT the death penalty is given very freely for even the most minor infractions, and some of them are difficult to be seen as infractions, such as mixing two different types of cloth.
In this respect, my ways are higher than the god of the OT.
Even the scriptures quoted contradict themselves.
Jerimiah 29:11
For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD,
thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.
Jeremiah 6:19
Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people,
even the fruit of their thoughts,
because they have not hearkened unto my words,…
And the words they often didn’t hearken to were their lack of motivation to conquer the tribes around them. When Saul didn’t kill the king as ordered, Samuel the prophet picked up a sword and did it for him. Imagine your pastor behaving in that way?
It’s not hard to see how religion promotes violence if people worship a god whose final solution is to kill everyone who doesn’t agree and call that spiritual.
I would hope that reason would inform you that this type of smoke and mirrors has really done great harm to humanity considering the massive amount of violence done in the name of religion on this planet.
Hopefully the truth can set us free from this cycle of violence.
Yes, I was informed by one of the ‘leadership team’ at my church, that it showed the morality of God. At which point I almost threw up and had to leave the room. (I’m not speaking figuratively here.) I wasn’t able to talk about it any more.
Some of you may wonder why I am rude to the objectionable person mentioned above, (though I’m guessing most of you won’t). He has not presented himself on here as a human being, but as a spamming machine. It doesn’t matter that it’s random Bible verses – it’s still spamming. I don’t believe tolerance should be extended to spammers. As such, I object strongly to his continued presence and have largely ceased posting on any of David’s blogs.
How this person can see himself as any sort of positive influence is beyond me. He said that no one loved him until God did – well frankly I’m not surprised. He’s clearly a very dysfunctional human being, or as I prefer to say, ‘a complete saddo’. If he wants anyone other than God to love him, he needs to change his behaviour.
Tiggy: Please keep commenting. These things work themselves out. Thanks.
Richard Harty said, on December 9th, 2009 at 2:38 pm
fishon said, “You know bob, you had better be right. If you are, I lose nothing, cause I will just be worm food just like you–however, if you are not right….”
If we were to take this as our reason for believing then we would be required to take into account every claim about god from all the different religions just in case. And many of them would be contradictory and would offend the god or gods of other belief systems.
———–Yea, so what! They had better be right.
There are couple aspects of this approach that are red flags for me. The first is that it is fear based, which makes it more of a superstition than a rational approach. And second, being fear based, it doesn’t seem very mature and it sounds like taunting.
———–”Praise the Lord. Blessed is the man who fears the Lord, who finds great delight in his commands” (Psalms 112:1).
“The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom….”
Your argument is with the writers of those scriptures.
By the way, what’s wrong with a little fear?
fishon
bob said, on December 9th, 2009 at 4:00 pm
Richard, for what it’s worth, I pretty much agree with all of your points. I just try (and try again) a slightly different approach, but as you can see from fishon’s response, it usually doesn’t work. Nothing works
———–Oh contra. You do respond–so I must be hitting something.
If nothing work, then why oh why would you waste time on responing????
YOU:6 – (yawn) Not sure what you are talking about due to your usual vagueness, but I’ll take a stab at it –
———–I think yawn indicates bored. Hum, but then you respond to one such as I. Interesting.
YOU:As I hope, but doubt that you can see, your reasoning is faulty, just as I have been saying. I welcome your next sarcastic insult(s) though.
———–Dang, bob, I would think you would give it up. You know, trying to reason with the unreasonable.
fishon
Tiggy said, on December 9th, 2009 at 6:17 pm
Yes, I was informed by one of the ‘leadership team’ at my church, that it showed the morality of God. At which point I almost threw up and had to leave the room. (I’m not speaking figuratively here.) I wasn’t able to talk about it any more.
Some of you may wonder why I am rude to the objectionable person mentioned above, (though I’m guessing most of you won’t). He has not presented himself on here as a human being, but as a spamming machine. It doesn’t matter that it’s random Bible verses – it’s still spamming. I don’t believe tolerance should be extended to spammers. As such, I object strongly to his continued presence and have largely ceased posting on any of David’s blogs.
———————-My, my, tiggy, all that and you forgot that you have a “DELETE” key.
Or you might do as I do———JUST IGNORE.
fishon
fishon posted “Your argument is with the writers of those scriptures.
By the way, what’s wrong with a little fear?”
Well I thought the basis of god was love. Apparently not. Fear based motivation is at the low bar of maturity. Even the scripture you quote states that its the beginning.
“The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom….”
Now if we are going to use scripture, there is another that states “There is NO fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 1 John 4:18 (King James Version)”
Apparently your argument is also with those same writers.
That’s the problem with using the Bible as proof of concept. It debates with itself. If we combine those two texts literally we can conclude that perfect love casts out wisdom.
I know that some people interpret the term “fear of god” as respect. That’s even worse. LOL Perfect love casts out all respect.
fishon – “Oh contra. You do respond–so I must be hitting something.
If nothing work, then why oh why would you waste time on responing????”
fishon – “I think yawn indicates bored. Hum, but then you respond to one such as I. Interesting. ”
fishon – “Dang, bob, I would think you would give it up. You know, trying to reason with the unreasonable.”
All three comments above are basically the same, so I can answer them all at once.
I gave up trying to reason with fishon long ago. With regard to his faith, he avoids rational reasoning as if it were a venomous snake.
I respond to his absurd comments just in case there is someone who has read them that might be thinking he has made a good point. I realize, based on the responses, that there are few here who fall into that camp. For the most part, his replies are vague, insulting, juvenile, lack content, and do not warrant a thoughtful response, but just in case some passer by doesn’t see him for what he is, I will take the time and usually answer just about every burp he directs my way…and besides, it entertains me from time to time.
Richard Harty said, on December 10th, 2009 at 6:54 am
That’s the problem with using the Bible as proof of concept. It debates with itself.
————Richard, you try and mix prunes and grapes. In my saying you had “better be right,” there is no emphasis on love. Love has no part of my statement, so to try and use it to confuse the debate is a strawman. However, to say such a statement, I surely did have wisdom in mind. And when it comes to wisdom as spoken of in the Proverbs, will I will let them speak for themselves.
I loved my father and had a fear of him as a young boy [and he never yelled or hit me].
I loved my football coach, and had a fear of him.
My friend Charlie loved Admiral Nimitz, but when he was in his presence he had a certain fear.
Love and fear——-there is no contratation.
fishon
fishon posted “In my saying you had “better be right,” there is no emphasis on love. Love has no part of my statement,…”
No kidding.
fishon posted “Love and fear——-there is no contratation.”
Apparently you have no text for that one. LOL
Bob said: I respond to his absurd comments just in case there is someone who has read them that might be thinking he has made a good point. I realize, based on the responses, that there are few here who fall into that camp. For the most part, his replies are vague, insulting, juvenile, lack content, and do not warrant a thoughtful response, but just in case some passer by doesn’t see him for what he is, I will take the time and usually answer just about every burp he directs my way…and besides, it entertains me from time to time.
—————-Good try bob——–but only a fool debates a fool.
Only a fool responds to someone who does not “warrant a thoughtful response.” –Ah, so your responses are NOT THOUGHFUL RESPONSES,” [your words]to me. I like the admission.
I would think you could find better entertainment. You choice of entertainment speaks volumes of you————–it takes an “…insulting, juvenile, lack content…,” [your words] person to entertain you. What a life, bob, what a life you live having a need of “…insulting, juvenile, lack content…,” to entertain you from time to time.
I tell you what, bob. you can gloat and declare victory, why you can even declare me the villiage idiot, but you will do it on your dime——not mine. You go ahead and have your entertainment, but I will not waste my dime on you any more.
Type away bob, type away so as to please your need to receive “entertainment” from a insulting, juvenile, who lacks content. But you will be wasting key strokes. Because this villiage idiot will not play your tried game any longer.
Some will see the ridiculousness of your admission for responding to me for your above reasons stated. And to think you declare me one who argues from unreasonableness [insulting, juvenile, who lacks content] .
fishon
Oh, bob, don’t waste you time responding to this little ditty of mine, cause this is the last communication you get from me. Now if you feel the need to defend yourself to others as to why you used me, a insulting, juvenile, who lacks content, for entertainment purposes, by all means, feel free to type away.
fishon
SORRY ALICE!
?
Richard Harty said, on December 10th, 2009 at 1:09 pm
fishon posted “Love and fear——-there is no contratation.”
Apparently you have no text for that one. LOL
——————Laugh, but you didn’t address the love-fear connection.
I loved my father and had a fear of him as a young boy [and he never yelled
or hit me].
I loved my football coach, and had a fear of him.
My friend Charlie loved Admiral Nimitz, but when he was in his presence
he had a certain fear.
So I guess that since you ignored that, then you have never had that kind of
realionship: love and fear at the same time. ———— Wish you had said
that.
fishon
where you are coming from.
fishon posted “Laugh, but you didn’t address the love-fear connection.
I loved my father and had a fear of him as a young boy [and he never yelled
or hit me].”
I did address the love/fear connection in what I thought was something you believed in. I’ll repeat the text for your reference.
“There is NO fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 1 John 4:18 (King James Version)”
Now it may be true that you had fear within some of your relationships, but that has nothing to do with claims about god. I would think the divine relationship would far exceed any human ones.
What you failed to address is your own source of authority which clearly states that “there is NO fear in love.” If you consider that an authority, I see no way around that.
Since we are talking about bridges, that concept would bridge a lot of gaps, but Christianity has the problem of a god who’s final solution is to burn everyone in hell forever who disagrees.
Ugh, the idea of loving someone we fear is totally abusive. I don’t know if the word ‘fear’ in the Bible is meant that way or not. I suspect it is. It’s fear of ‘the Name of the Father’ that perpetuates evil patriarchal systems.
Sorry I couldn’t reply to your post earlier, Fishon. I wasn’t well. Being rude to humans isn’t the same as being rude to a spamming machine. Mr ‘Love’ isn’t a real person; he’s an automated message.
hi tigg.
Hi David.
You know, at times when money gets short and bills get long, I sometimes ask myself the same question – ‘Am I sitting on the solution?’
now now girl!
tiggy,
Sorry you were not feeling well. I take it you are feeling somewhat better!
YOU: Tiggy said, on December 10th, 2009 at 6:35 pm
Ugh, the idea of loving someone we fear is totally abusive.
———-I guess different strokes for different folks.
No abuse by my father or step-father or coaches. So I don’t relate to your problem with loving someone we fear. Of course, you do know there are different kinds of fears, don’t you?
fishon
Yes, I should be better by tomorrow . At least I hope so, because I’m going to a party. This is the Christmas party of my friend’s bipolar group. As the only non-bipolar person going, I assume I’ve been invited to lend it some gravitas. They obviously haven’t seen me after three gin and tonics.
I wasn’t suggesting that your coach or fathers were abusive! I meant it leaves us open to being abused. It’s very hard to have the two coexist in one relationship without it lowering your self-esteem dramatically and that tends to lead to later self-abuse or vulnerability.
Pleas outline the different kinds of fear then.
tiggy said: I wasn’t suggesting that your coach or fathers were abusive! I meant it leaves us open to being abused. It’s very hard to have the two coexist in one relationship without it lowering your self-esteem dramatically and that tends to lead to later self-abuse or vulnerability.
————–Tiggy, I honestly don’t know quite how to answer you. Your life experience and mine are soooo opposite. I wrote out a reply, but have deleted it.
If you want to disregard the scriptures I have given in a previous post, there is nothing I can say to you that will make a difference.
And I won’t even give you scripture about seeing you after three gin and tonics.
fishon
Tiggy said, on December 10th, 2009 at 8:28 pm
Hi David.
You know, at times when money gets short and bills get long, I sometimes ask myself the same question – ‘Am I sitting on the solution?’
———–Well tiggy, that solution landed my daughter onto skid-row, a nasty drug habit, and then prison.
fishon