Very true! Superheroes are somewhat trivial if not understood in terms of universal archetypes.
So maybe we have simply allowed the male gender to make us feel ugly and disoriented? I remember my friend calling me one day. She was doing dishes and taking care of the kids and suddenly had a huge realization. She said something like – “This is it! This is all there is. And we bought into it hook, line and sinker.” Which obviously isn’t a huge realization – we all come to it eventually, I suppose. You play the role you are told to play, thinking there will be some sort of reward in the end – but the reward is something like getting to do the dishes! But it was what she said afterward that really got me. She said, “Laura, we allowed this to happen. We gave men all of the power they have over us.” Which I think is right! They didn’t have the power, we gave it to them!
And I think this is the same for all authority, whether we be males or females. We want the order and structure and want the beauty that goes along with it. Which would be fine, except for whatever reason, we are willing to sacrifice our Dionysian natures for the promise of that structured beauty. Which, of course, never comes! It ends up being all about utilitarian matters like washing the dishes, which is potentially beautiful if you are Brother Lawrence. But not so beautiful when the structure strips you of your very nature.
Women historically have had to belong to a man in order to be protected from other men, because men are generally physically stronger and more aggressive. That’s why I was scared of my father as a child, because he was strong and aggressive. I wasn’t scared of my mother. Even though he’s old and not strong now, I still feel scared of him because of memories and because he’s still aggressive. I don’t think women had much choice about patriarchy.
I’m single and I would gladly wash the dishes if it meant I had a companion. Actually, no I wouldn’t, I’d make him buy me a dishwasher. But I would love to have a partner and children and if that meant I had to wash dishes, then I would. I would never feel, ‘This is all there is’ because I’d make sure it wasn’t. Anyway, I never really get bored, I just get lonely. I have a very active mind, so if I feel bored I know it’s just that I’m wanting some company. I spend a tremendous amount of time on my own, so it does happen sometimes.
I don’t consider that the structure has stripped me of my true nature, but then I’ve largely managed to avoid the structure. My true nature and the structure proved to be incompatible.
I didn’t mean for the dishwashing anlogy to be taken literally, Tiggy. My friend who said that had actually had a housekeeper at the time.
But I hear ya! Having a companion is nothing to take for granted.
If you go back far enough in time – pre- “His”-story, the primary gods were goddesses – fertility, growth, renewal. And back to being associated with Dionysius – the Jesus’ myth is heavily rooted in Dionysian symbology.
So what allowed for the patriarchy? It wasn’t just physical strength.
At the time, she was an Olympic Figure Skating Coach. She’s also one of those people who help put on mega charity balls. She had plenty of interests in her life. But that wasn’t the point. The point was that she recognized all of the crap she was doing as diversions. It was all just washing the dishes.
I thought you would understand because you said you understood archetypes early-on.
Diversions from what? What did she want to be doing? I don’t understand what her problem was. I have very little in my life so maybe it’s not surprising that I dont’ understand the dissatisfaction of someone who has much. Maybe she wasn’t busy worrying about how to pay the bills.
That’s the problem, Tiggy. We aren’t Human Doings, are we? I, like you, worry about paying the bills. We never have enough money. But hopefully that’s not the totality of our existence, anymore than it is the totality of the wealthy to justify their wealth.
There are lots of different archetypes dependent upon your orientation: the prostitute, the vampire, the hero/heroine, the prophet, the muse, the magician, the healer, the hermit, the rescuer, the outcast, the scapegoat, the task, the quest, the loss of innocence, the intiation, water, The list goes on and on. And we all play them out in one form or other.
So let me rephrase what my friend meant and what I was asking: Why do we women so readily play the victim role just because males are physically stronger?
I don’t. I never succombed to my father’s authority, even when he hit me. I suppose I’ve frequently rebelled against ‘authority’. Someone right now wants me to believe that he’s acting with wisdom; I’ve replied, ‘Sorry, but I don’t have any reason to think you’re wise with regard to this situation. I don’t look up to you in that way. I just see you as the same as me’.
Tiggy and Arulba…of course feminine spirituality is different. Look at the feminine principal and the masculine principle. The masculine principal is all about ideas… the feminine is all about bringing those ideas to fruition. Our functions are totally different. Men who aren’t in touch with there feminine side aren’t able to have mystical experiences. Women tend less to the theological and are more prone to spiritual experience. The conditioning of the judeo- christian world has put women in a subservient role. That conditioning began with the goddess religions with the infiltration of a male oriented tribe. Some think that this tribe became the levitical priesthood. up until that time the women were the spiritual leaders for the most part.
‘That conditioning began with the goddess religions with the infiltration of a male oriented tribe. Some think that this tribe became the levitical priesthood. up until that time the women were the spiritual leaders for the most part.’
Is there evidence for that?
Personally, I’m a lot better at having ideas than bringing them to fruition.
Tiggy…the book its in is in the other room. I’ll look it up over the weekend and give you the references. You’re probably better at ideas because you’re very much in touch with you’re masculine side…but you are also creative, so you’re in touch with the feminine as well.
I think there is significant evidence for goddess worship. The Chalice and the Blade was the book everyone was reading back in the ’80s. I haven’t read it, but a lot of my friends considered it to be “life-changing”. But I think a lot of it’s ideas have been heavily challenged.
Joseph Campbell confirms the goddess worship and what preacherlady is saying. It might be true that the Levitical Priesthood upset the goddess worship in the middle east – at least for the Hebrew tribes. David Leeming talks about it in his book, Jealous Gods, Chosen People. As the Hebrew myths begin to take shape, there is a movement away from what is typically found in the area (the agricultural tribal pagan goddess) toward a patriarchal, hierarchical mentality. Even as late as 720 BC, the God most worshiped among the northern tribes was Asherah – the mother goddess.
What I’d love to see is evidence for female leadership in the Middle East. That is what has been so heavily challenged in the Chalice and the Blade.
I wasn’t disputing the goddess worship, just this idea that somehow women were in charge of it and had higher status then. I would want to see some firm evidence and thorough scholarship. Of course there have been small powerhouses of women, like the Sybils, the Vestal Virgins and a few early Abbesses, but I very much doubt there was ever a whole society where women had equal power.
I don’t know how significant the leadership roles were, but there is a lot of significant evidence that women held much more powerful roles than they did once societies became patriarchal. But I don’t think there has ever been any significant evidence that women held equal roles. But maybe that’s the wrong way to look at it?
Way more than that, Tiggy. Egyptian women held both physician roles and extremely prominent roles of leadership. Celtic women held warrior leadership roles – many led men into battle. And going back a bit further into Celtic history, women were Druid priests. Matriarchies were not unknown. But the history along the Mesopotamian Peninsula doesn’t turn up the same sort of female equality, even though there is plenty of Goddess worship.
I’m more interested in how the majority of women were seen, than the odd figure who rose to power. Btw, in groups of monkeys you sometimes get alpha females as well as females who prefer beta males.
David Hayward is an artist trapped in a pastor's body, stripping to the essential.
Very true! Superheroes are somewhat trivial if not understood in terms of universal archetypes.
So maybe we have simply allowed the male gender to make us feel ugly and disoriented? I remember my friend calling me one day. She was doing dishes and taking care of the kids and suddenly had a huge realization. She said something like – “This is it! This is all there is. And we bought into it hook, line and sinker.” Which obviously isn’t a huge realization – we all come to it eventually, I suppose. You play the role you are told to play, thinking there will be some sort of reward in the end – but the reward is something like getting to do the dishes!
But it was what she said afterward that really got me. She said, “Laura, we allowed this to happen. We gave men all of the power they have over us.” Which I think is right! They didn’t have the power, we gave it to them!
And I think this is the same for all authority, whether we be males or females. We want the order and structure and want the beauty that goes along with it. Which would be fine, except for whatever reason, we are willing to sacrifice our Dionysian natures for the promise of that structured beauty. Which, of course, never comes! It ends up being all about utilitarian matters like washing the dishes, which is potentially beautiful if you are Brother Lawrence. But not so beautiful when the structure strips you of your very nature.
Women historically have had to belong to a man in order to be protected from other men, because men are generally physically stronger and more aggressive. That’s why I was scared of my father as a child, because he was strong and aggressive. I wasn’t scared of my mother. Even though he’s old and not strong now, I still feel scared of him because of memories and because he’s still aggressive. I don’t think women had much choice about patriarchy.
I’m single and I would gladly wash the dishes if it meant I had a companion. Actually, no I wouldn’t, I’d make him buy me a dishwasher. But I would love to have a partner and children and if that meant I had to wash dishes, then I would. I would never feel, ‘This is all there is’ because I’d make sure it wasn’t. Anyway, I never really get bored, I just get lonely. I have a very active mind, so if I feel bored I know it’s just that I’m wanting some company. I spend a tremendous amount of time on my own, so it does happen sometimes.
I don’t consider that the structure has stripped me of my true nature, but then I’ve largely managed to avoid the structure. My true nature and the structure proved to be incompatible.
I didn’t mean for the dishwashing anlogy to be taken literally, Tiggy.
My friend who said that had actually had a housekeeper at the time.
But I hear ya! Having a companion is nothing to take for granted.
If you go back far enough in time – pre- “His”-story, the primary gods were goddesses – fertility, growth, renewal. And back to being associated with Dionysius – the Jesus’ myth is heavily rooted in Dionysian symbology.
So what allowed for the patriarchy? It wasn’t just physical strength.
She had a housekeeper. So what was she complaining about? Could she really not find anything interesting to do?
Just because you have a fertility goddess doesn’t mean ordinary women are given any higher status.
Male thinking doesn’t tend to be very holistic; it’s dualistic and women are ‘the other’ and the recipients of male toxic guilt.
Testosterone makes you aggressive. I have a hormonal imbalance, so I’m very conscious of how powerful hormones are.
At the time, she was an Olympic Figure Skating Coach. She’s also one of those people who help put on mega charity balls. She had plenty of interests in her life. But that wasn’t the point. The point was that she recognized all of the crap she was doing as diversions. It was all just washing the dishes.
I thought you would understand because you said you understood archetypes early-on.
Nevermind!
Diversions from what? What did she want to be doing? I don’t understand what her problem was. I have very little in my life so maybe it’s not surprising that I dont’ understand the dissatisfaction of someone who has much. Maybe she wasn’t busy worrying about how to pay the bills.
What does it have to do with archetypes?
What was she “doing”?
That’s the problem, Tiggy. We aren’t Human Doings, are we? I, like you, worry about paying the bills. We never have enough money. But hopefully that’s not the totality of our existence, anymore than it is the totality of the wealthy to justify their wealth.
There are lots of different archetypes dependent upon your orientation: the prostitute, the vampire, the hero/heroine, the prophet, the muse, the magician, the healer, the hermit, the rescuer, the outcast, the scapegoat, the task, the quest, the loss of innocence, the intiation, water, The list goes on and on. And we all play them out in one form or other.
So let me rephrase what my friend meant and what I was asking: Why do we women so readily play the victim role just because males are physically stronger?
Or drop the gender identification altogether. What makes us allow for and succomb to those who have placed themselves in authority?
I don’t. I never succombed to my father’s authority, even when he hit me. I suppose I’ve frequently rebelled against ‘authority’. Someone right now wants me to believe that he’s acting with wisdom; I’ve replied, ‘Sorry, but I don’t have any reason to think you’re wise with regard to this situation. I don’t look up to you in that way. I just see you as the same as me’.
Tiggy and Arulba…of course feminine spirituality is different. Look at the feminine principal and the masculine principle. The masculine principal is all about ideas… the feminine is all about bringing those ideas to fruition. Our functions are totally different. Men who aren’t in touch with there feminine side aren’t able to have mystical experiences. Women tend less to the theological and are more prone to spiritual experience. The conditioning of the judeo- christian world has put women in a subservient role. That conditioning began with the goddess religions with the infiltration of a male oriented tribe. Some think that this tribe became the levitical priesthood. up until that time the women were the spiritual leaders for the most part.
‘That conditioning began with the goddess religions with the infiltration of a male oriented tribe. Some think that this tribe became the levitical priesthood. up until that time the women were the spiritual leaders for the most part.’
Is there evidence for that?
Personally, I’m a lot better at having ideas than bringing them to fruition.
Tiggy…the book its in is in the other room. I’ll look it up over the weekend and give you the references. You’re probably better at ideas because you’re very much in touch with you’re masculine side…but you are also creative, so you’re in touch with the feminine as well.
I don’t really get it. Men bring ideas to fruition.
I think there is significant evidence for goddess worship. The Chalice and the Blade was the book everyone was reading back in the ’80s. I haven’t read it, but a lot of my friends considered it to be “life-changing”. But I think a lot of it’s ideas have been heavily challenged.
Joseph Campbell confirms the goddess worship and what preacherlady is saying. It might be true that the Levitical Priesthood upset the goddess worship in the middle east – at least for the Hebrew tribes. David Leeming talks about it in his book, Jealous Gods, Chosen People. As the Hebrew myths begin to take shape, there is a movement away from what is typically found in the area (the agricultural tribal pagan goddess) toward a patriarchal, hierarchical mentality. Even as late as 720 BC, the God most worshiped among the northern tribes was Asherah – the mother goddess.
What I’d love to see is evidence for female leadership in the Middle East. That is what has been so heavily challenged in the Chalice and the Blade.
I wasn’t disputing the goddess worship, just this idea that somehow women were in charge of it and had higher status then. I would want to see some firm evidence and thorough scholarship. Of course there have been small powerhouses of women, like the Sybils, the Vestal Virgins and a few early Abbesses, but I very much doubt there was ever a whole society where women had equal power.
I don’t know how significant the leadership roles were, but there is a lot of significant evidence that women held much more powerful roles than they did once societies became patriarchal. But I don’t think there has ever been any significant evidence that women held equal roles. But maybe that’s the wrong way to look at it?
Maybe there was initially some respect for their ability to produce life.
Way more than that, Tiggy. Egyptian women held both physician roles and extremely prominent roles of leadership. Celtic women held warrior leadership roles – many led men into battle. And going back a bit further into Celtic history, women were Druid priests. Matriarchies were not unknown. But the history along the Mesopotamian Peninsula doesn’t turn up the same sort of female equality, even though there is plenty of Goddess worship.
I was thinking rather further back with that one.
I’m more interested in how the majority of women were seen, than the odd figure who rose to power. Btw, in groups of monkeys you sometimes get alpha females as well as females who prefer beta males.