My agenda is to have no agenda. This frustrates so many people, including myself. But I resist the temptation, and I have to every day. It seems that the most natural thing to do when people gather together is to try to manage them. It may not be the most natural but it seems to be the most immediate. The zealots, the religious, the spiritual, the leaders, the authorities, the professionals, would like to see the people (for their own good, of course) follow a prescribed but kindly path to a better life that they envision for them. I understand this. I totally get it. Been there, done that… on both sides!
I live in a world inundated with agenda. I am daily assaulted by millions of agendas aimed at capturing my imagination, my passion, my commitment, my allegiance, my money, my body, my soul… whatever. It is relentless and exhaustive. So, why not provide at least one place in the world where we leave agenda outside the door? Why not provide a place, kind of like our homes and families ought to be… where people can enter without any fear of being marketed, analyzed, polled, compared, solicited or persuaded?
And… I’ve got an idea… why don’t we call this place a sanctuary? A place of refuge and safety from agendas, goals, visions and purposes? I don’t care what kind of liturgy it is… from the highest with bells and smells to the lowest with circles of silence. It doesn’t matter. And I don’t care where it is… a warehouse, a living room, a school gym, a bar, a cathedral. Those are only the props. Please! Let’s provide a place where people aren’t consumers, customers, pawns, subscribers, supporters, adherents or disciples. Rather, let’s provide a place where they can actually discover themselves, and be a person for a while… a place where they are not judged or cajoled, cataloged or categorized, lured or lead, envisioned or enabled, improved or empowered, managed or manipulated.
Is there any such place on earth?
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David Hayward is a pastor artistically stripping to the essential.
Can I put this on my Facebook page?
of course!
Inspiring post.
What strikes me most about the Sanctuary, is that it appeals to me, but I have no faith.
The hardest thing, I think, and I see you struggle with this as you work out your pov on the blog, is that one is always tempted to have some line in the sand. That’s not the same as an agenda. But one might say – the Sanctuary is open and welcoming to all who love the Lord a little and want to love him more. Or to all who understand a higher power.
Even in my utopian Sanctuary there are lines in sand. It wouldn’t appeal to me if it was the place for heroine users to shoot up in peace, or for some thirty something to hang out with his teenage girfriend. I’m being obtuse, I know, but see what I’m saying.
Where is your line in the sand? Would it be in front of, or behind an atheist like me?
“Is there any such place on earth?”
Yes there are such places, but often enough they are temporal in nature as much as geographical. And as Ian suggests, there are limitations.
Reminds me a bit of Homer running into the church and yelling, “Sanctuary! Sanctuary!” and Rev. Lovejoy muttering something about how he regrets ever teaching Homer that word. Sometimes Rev. Lovejoy can’t help but judge, or at least suffer, Homer’s antics.
Rev. Lovejoy has his basement filled with model trains. Homer has a few hideouts. Some people move out to the country in an attempt to have such a space where they can just be. Some people build their own homes so they can have a space just so. Some people feel it in communities or congregations. Some people find it in the arms of a lover. Some in silence and isolation. But again, all these places only offer sanctuary in terms of limited time, limited space or limited boundaries of acceptable being.
“So, why not provide at least one place in the world where we leave agenda outside the door?”
I don’t know. Because it’s extremely hard? Because each of us finds an individualized ‘place’ like that on his/her own? Because many of us get wrapped up snugly in the agendas?
You are taking on the challenge, and that is courageous of you. Does it have to be community-minded?
Sounds like the Temporary Autonomous Zone of Hakim Bey. Sadly, those in power have it on their agenda not to permit such places to exist.
Hi David,
We had a friend who was depressed a lot of the time and he would come weekends and lie on our couch for the whole weekend. Somehow it made him feel better. Later-on he even had his own key for our home.
our home is a sanctuary for anyone who needs rest. We try do be a place where people do not have to pretend or perform to be loved. And somehow the Lord is blessing this space. Even people who have sleeping problems sleeps well in our home
It takes time for for people to settle into rest. The pretending and performing doesn’t stop immediately. Luckily Jesus showed us how to take it slow
If such a place is not yet manifest in form, it will be, for it is very much alive in David’s heart and mind. Ian, I’m sure in such a place you would be welcome, and not for someone to pound you into belief…it is possible for atheists to touch the spirit…they may change their belief, or they may call what is happening something else. I think such a place can emerge amongst the highly creative…the poets could write and the musicians play…or not…but above all peace and love and wholeness would infuse the gathering….it wouldn’t depend on a great sermon, although one could be a byproduct of the gathering…it wouldn’t depend on a great band or soloist although beautiful music could be generated…a place to come together in love and just be…that sounds wonderful….why does there have to be an agenda?
Isnt that why we have Golf.
@preacherlady
Thanks. Thinking about this more, how does one then cope with the fact that the people coming into the sanctuary certainly may have an agenda? How does one provide sanctuary from each others’ agenda, as well as from the minister’s.
A creative commune as you describe doesn’t feel like it would work to me. One musician is trying to find others to accompany her, the playwright wants to workshop their ideas, the prayerful mystic wants a bit of peace and quiet.
Even more towards David’s original post, even with some structure there – one person might not get their intellectual stimulation, another may not feel their spiritual needs met, another might not feel inspired to face their next troubled week.
Agendas are everywhere, not least in church. I think it is brave and truly admirable to commit to not adding another from the pulpit, but in a church of 50 people, that is only the difference between 51 agendas and 50!
I’ve been privileged to find two such sanctuaries in my life, both Anglican churches in the Catholic tradition. The then vicar of the first (Little St. Mary’s in Cambridge, England) was fond of saying “If you aren’t welcome anywhere else, you’ll be welcome here”, and he meant it. I’ve also heard both churches described as “a church of waifs and strays”. I’d like all churches to be like that, whatever their liturgical preference. Which, er, is an agenda, but I think it’s a good one.
“Is there any such place on earth?”
No…there is not. And there will never be such a place, either.
I suppose it might be possible, but I’m not sure it would still be a church. What do we do with Jesus’ agenda to love God and people and make disciples?
“Is there any such place on earth?”
How about a Library?
ruth: sh!
You drip with agenda. You blog site is filled with agenda. And anyone who denys agenda as often as you, well, that screams agenda.
fishon
I dont think such a place will ever exist on earth… It’s sad. I think such a place can only be possible with heart and we all walk around with hearts that are wounded and with agendas to protect ourselves against this world we live in.
David, thanks for writing this.
You’ve put into words what I was trying to express to some pastor friends of mine this weekend who, because they come out of the business world, think in business terms. We were talking about how I believe it is impossible to measure “success” in a church in any way besides number of butts in a pew. There’s no way to tell what real impact we’re having because we can’t see the length of a person’s life, and we can’t see the depth of change in them.
They are trying to “manage” people and measure their own success by other people’s behaviors. That’s crazy making and I’d argue not scriptural nor healthy for them or the people in the church. Fine for business life…maybe deadly for spiritual life.
Robin,
I don’t know if Jesus had an “agenda” to love God and people and make disciples as much as he had a heart that responded to others and a mind that was centered on the Father. Out of his own centeredness, he responded to situations. I don’t recall Jesus being “organized” or “planned” or even “vision-based” in his efforts to share the Good News. But maybe he was… now I want to go back and reread the gospels…
Laura,
My thoughts exactly.
ttm,
“ALL authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore GO and MAKE disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and TEACHING them to OBEY everything I have COMMANDED you {caps mine}.
____________That certainly sounds like a vision based, agenda to me, along with having a heart for others and a mind centered on the Father. They are not mutually exclusive.
“If you love me, you will DO as I COMMAND” {caps mine}.
____________Seems like there is an agenda and vison for those who love him mixed in there somewhere.
fishon
You drip with agenda. You blog site is filled with agenda. And anyone who denys agenda as often as you, well, that screams agenda.
fishon
Last time I read some stuff from you, you seemed like you were in a depression. I see youre better now.
Fishon you always make Jesus sound like some kind of autocrat by capitalising any words of instruction he uses (see above and earlier posts). That’s a distortion. It’s only when reading your distorted sentences that he comes across t hat way to me – when I read the gospels he doesn’t even though t he words are identical but in context. I don’t know why you are so fond of those words you capitalise – maybe you’re looking for an autocrat to make you feel safe.
“I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one gets to the Father but by me.”
– Jesus
TitforTat said, on October 22nd, 2009 at 11:57 am
Last time I read some stuff from you, you seemed like you were in a depression. I see youre better now.
_________Yep, back to normal. Preacherlady [Alice] was a very big help to me. Isn’t it ironic, she knows I don’t think women should be preachers, but she is the one who helped me, big time. More so than people I see on a daily bases.
fishon
Tiggy said, on October 22nd, 2009 at 1:23 pm
Fishon you always make Jesus sound like some kind of autocrat by capitalising any words of instruction he uses (see above and earlier posts). That’s a distortion. It’s only when reading your distorted sentences that he comes across t hat way to me – when I read the gospels he doesn’t even though t he words are identical but in context. I don’t know why you are so fond of those words you capitalise – maybe you’re looking for an autocrat to make you feel safe.
_________If me using an acceptable standard for emphasis in writing bothers you so much, well…. By the way, it is not a distortion; it would be if I did NOT identify the caps as mine. I can’t do much about you reading an acceptable standard of writing the way you choose. To bad you try to put your problem on me. It really isn’t any different than David highlighting the word “sanctuary” in the article we are responding to. I would highlight, but can’t do it in this formate. No difference, tiggy.
fishon
Well why do you want to highlight particular words in a sentence? They weren’t highlighted in the original or in any translations. The effect is to distort the tone of the sentence. I don’t see the relevance in this discussion anyway. Teaching is only teaching if people learn and people learn in all sorts of ways including from being given the space to discover things for themselves.
TitforTat said – “Last time I read some stuff from you, you seemed like you were in a depression. I see youre better now.”
If by “better” you mean worse…much worse
and yet another thread gets turned into a discussion about Fishon’s attitutude and behavior instead of about the topic at hand, thereby effectively killing off any real communication with anyone else.
it’d be funny if it weren’t so tedious..
bob said, on October 22nd, 2009 at 2:03 pm
TitforTat said – “Last time I read some stuff from you, you seemed like you were in a depression. I see youre better now.”
If by “better” you mean worse…much worse
______Eye of the beholder, bob, eye of the beholder.
fishon
ttm: I guess that would depend on how you define agenda and whether that definition always paints agenda in a negative light. I would say that Jesus had an agenda and that he expressed it succinctly in places like Lk. 4:18-19 and John 10:10.
Laura said, “and yet another thread gets turned into a discussion about Fishon’s attitude and behavior instead of about the topic at hand, thereby effectively killing off any real communication with anyone else.
it’d be funny if it weren’t so tedious..”
You are right Laura, but it seems you are saying that those of us who do not agree with his (fishons) message and tactics should just ignore him? For how long?…till he just goes away?
As for me, I feel kind of like an adult in a restaurant, and fishon is an unruly child running around the tables. Nothing I can do about it except make mean faces at his parents.
Go back to his initial response – “You drip with agenda. You blog site is filled with agenda. And anyone who denys agenda as often as you, well, that screams agenda.”
Laura, is this what you call “real communication”? Whay not call an ass an ass?
Just trying to get your perspective here.
Robin, I guess how we interpret the issue is impacted greatly by how we define agenda. I define it as a docket, list of items to be covered in a meeting, a booklet or organizer detailing a schedule, or a list of things to be done or considered. And I don’t really believe that Jesus was much of an organizer or someone who said: “Okay, guys, today we’re going to do this, this, and this. Then tomorrow I need to do this, that,and that. Now Peter, you take care of this. Thomas, you make sure that this item gets taken care of. Go ahead and delegate if you need to, but make sure you keep a tight rein on your delegates because we have to be sure the job gets done right.” I see Jesus more as someone who had a purpose, yes, but he meandered through life acheiving his purpose without an organized agenda.
Thanks for pointing me toward Luke 4:18-19 and John 10:10. I think John 10 definitely speaks toward the overall purpose of Jesus being the God-man here on Earth. As far as Luke 4 being a “list” of things for Jesus to do or an agenda for him to follow, I just don’t know yet. I need to reread it and let it permeate my brain awhile.
Go back to his initial response – “You drip with agenda. You blog site is filled with agenda. And anyone who denys agenda as often as you, well, that screams agenda.”
Laura, is this what you call “real communication”? Whay not call an ass an ass?
______Ah bob, are you now the NP’s offical communication police?
And bob, I can’t run around the tables anymore, to old, and besides, those slick restaurants floors are a hazzard; an old fellow like me might fall and break a hip as I make a sharp u-turn to make a move towards your table, so as to kick your shin. Dang little brat that I am.
fishon
Where did I put that cuirass again? I just had it on a couple of days ago…
fishon said – “Ah bob, are you now the NP’s offical communication police?”
Self appointed.
LOL, some of you are getting to sound like the grumpy old men from the Muppet’s audience.
Oh it would be nice to go to a church without feeling fearful! Without constantly having to watch what I say and not feel under pressure to speak their language.
I was actually worrying this week at a meeting because other people seem to say ‘The Lord’ w hereas I say ‘God’. I use the term ‘Lord’ in songs I write – nothing against the term, I just have grown up saying God. But it makes me feel I’ll be under suspicion.
Second anxiety, should I have mentioned the Enneagram? Will some people make the mistake of t hinking it’s something occult? Will I be under suspicion?
Third anxiety, will my c hurch leader block me from his Facebook page for having made the satirical comment. ‘Do you think my PMS is ‘of demonic origin’?'?
I really have enough stress to cope with!
Ian…was not available for comment for a couple of days…when a symphony is tuning up, it is discordant, inharmonious, and the atmosphere is chaotic, and after it is in tune, it plays celestial music. My own experience of a group which had a loose agenda and allowed freedom of expression, was very interesting. When you allow freedom you attract people who are tired of having to be something they are not, so in addition to those people who are seeking a deeper spiritual experience, you also attract other people who want to be who they really are, and then the fun begins! I had one lady who nastily challenged every word out of my mouth…another who is bi-polar and was off her meds, was in a manic stage, and who wanted to either ballet dance, or sit in her chair upside down…but we also had a poet who finally accepted himself as a viable poet, an actor writer who had become discouraged who began to write and act again…an alchoholic who realized he was in deep straits and finally went to the program. But for about six months there, before the harmony set in, I dreaded going… I couldn’t see what God was doing.
fishon/Jerry…God uses whatever messenger is at hand. And curiously, why did you listen to me when you don’t believe in women preachers?
fishon/Jerry…God uses whatever messenger is at hand. And curiously, why did you listen to me when you don’t believe in women preachers?
_______Alice, never said that women preachers don’t have God things to say.
_______Conversely, some men preachers have ‘nothing’ of God to say.
fishy
Bob- my perspective is pretty straight forward.
I think Fishon often times acts like an ass on this blog. I’ve said it a number of times, in not so many words, here before.
Frankly, I get sick and tired of nearly every single thread turning into a conversation about him and his crappy attitude towards the host of this blog and the people who participate here.
If I thought ignoring him would make him go away, I’d suggest it.
I’ve been around here for a very long time and I absolutely agree with you about his acting like a spoiled child who’s parents refuse to discipline him while others are trying to have a civil conversation. Or a drunk at a party that comes in and wrecks it for everyone else. Whatever analogy you want to use.
I would prefer to have conversations with people on here who have something positive and productive to say about the subjects that are being introduced instead of constantly having Fishon show up and divert the topic to him. It gets boring and I’m quite tired of it.
I wish he’d either move on or learn how to relate to people in a manner than doesn’t always put the focus on himself.
That’s about as clear as I can get.
Hope that’s helps
@ fishon: I am new to this blog and I obviously dont know you and therefor cant understand some of the negative comments your responses evoke. You must be here for a reason… whether it is to sow a seed of doubt or maybe you’re looking for answers yourself? What objetive could you have and why would you want to join this group?
I like you, because I get the idea that you want to challenge and that you want to rebel agaisnt a god that commands you to submission or else… in essence I dont see anything wrong with that… if you are seeking the truth… (please correct me if I am wrong, I am Afrikaans so I am trying to express myself in english as best as I can) In other words: What AGENDA do you have for being here?
I am just curious…
Now I realise from his message on the other thread, that he’s here to challenge what David is saying in order to protect us from him. In the act of that he ends up preventing a real discussion. He should start his own blog, then he can divert people t here if they wish to go there. We had someone like that on another blog I post on and all he ended up doing was putting people off Christianity altogether.
……at the risk of being shunted into a corner, could i suggest that there is such a sanctuary….but i think it is to be found in relationship?
sometimes those sanctuaries are indeed in a physical place, for a while.
then the place becomes confused with what it is that is happening?
people move…have screaming babies or towering hormonal teenagers….other people join…visting grandparents….marriage breakdowns….get married again….are ill…obtain tarantulas…
Whatever and however, that place ( that we associate with sanctuary ) is no longer a safe place and the relationships that made it so can all too often fray…..come unravelled…disjointed…fracture…or worse of all, become silent
maybe, in order to access this ‘place’..we carve those places out?
be intentional? give up other stuff ( give up most other stuff…)?
push the cares and the worries, the ought tos and must haves onto one side and press on….. for how we were created to dance this life?
and yes, maybe we end up all sounding like mystics….but is that a really bad thing?
that’s the only one that works for me anyway
Brilliant!
I want to be a sanctuary.