This is my Illustration Friday submission for “germs”.
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Jerry…you’re welcome…I should have asked if I could use your e-mail address… I believe prayer is rather a private thing.
Tiggy…have a good time
Perhaps we need to cut Steve some slack…he’s only repeating what he has been taught…he’s Lutheran, so of course he touts Lutheran theology and if it works for him, so be it. Now it doesn’t mean it works or will work for the rest of us. Out of over 2 billion Christians in the world, there are about 65 million Lutherans…then divide that by the different synods, there aren’t many who believe as Steve does. We need to honor his beliefs, but we also need to demand respect for what the rest of us believe. Sharing beliefs is one thing, ripping people apart, stating that you have the one and only truth, is not productive, doesn’t promote dialog, and only makes people angry and think you’re a total jerk. The rest of us are not going to become Lutherans. We don’t adhere to the theology of Luther. He had some good ideas, however the way the theology is taught in your church, and yes, I’ve gone on the website and read and listened, does not agree with my theology nor that of the people who taught me. There is nothing wrong with having a firm set of beliefs nor with defending them. There is something decidedly wrong with being condescending, badmouthing people who disagree with you, and calling them names. When you go on the attack, you get attacked and this is what disturbed you so greatly last week, Steve. I believe you said “how can you live with yourselves when you attack my beliefs?’(not a direct quote) Well you reap what you sow…if you attack others beliefs…which you do consistentley, you’re going to have YOUR beliefs attacked, pure and simple.
Alice,
Yes, you can use my e-mail address
Jerry
“I find attempts by Christians to do Jewish festivals most embarassing” (Tiggy)
I find it kind of offensive in some ways – I mean – what’s wrong with being Jewish and celebrating them as they were meant to be celebrated? They don’t do it any different in Canada just that there is a lot less Messianic type congregations.
My church did what was supposed to be a Passover meal and they are not a Messianic type congregation. They had a visiting person from the Christian Mission to the Jews or something come and do it. He was a really doddery old Anglican vicar who didn’t know what he was talking about. It cost £12 and the food was awful – I still can’t believe they served up baked potatoes and chicken. Where was the lamb?? There was no sense of celebration whatsoever and no wine! Our pastor was rather peeved about that aspect.
That’s a shame, Tiggy. Years ago I visited a church which had people from Jews for Jesus come in and do a presentation on Jesus in the passover. It was great. When I moved out here, I hosted…or rather co-hosted a seder with a Jewish/Christian friend…we did it authentically and segued it into a communion sevice. And of course we had lamb and all the Jewish trappings of a seder.
I thought I would like t hat sort of thing, but I find it really disturbing and when my other church did one, I had to leave and that was embarassing because it’s such a small congregation that it was very obvious. The pastor came round to my flat afterwards to see if I was alright and I’d had two large glasses of wine and was probably not at my most coherent. It must have pushed all my stress buttons.
1) People nearly always get the symbolism wrong or understand/explain it incorrectly.
2) The mood is totally unJewish.
3) I view it as religious colonialism to appropriate Jewish ritual.
4) It brings out my anti-Zionist feelings
5) It’s usually a confusing mishmash
6) It causes me to have a three way identity crisis.
Guys and Gals,
Forgive me for not keeping up with the discussion here.
I see it’s getting a little rough.
Please keep it non-personal… and where it is non personal…don’t take it as such.
If you want to play rough and it’s mutual…fine.
There is always your private e-mails, as well, or your blogs if you have them.
Please keep it civil here.
Thanks very much!
– Steve
This is copied and pasted from Steve’s blog. Perhaps, Steve, you need to show the respect you demand from others…discussion is fine…attack is not.Rather than have a discussion, you put the rest of us on the defensive because you attack and go for the jugular. Why not keep it civil and discuss…discissions and exchange of ideas are so much nicer than defending an attack.
Rough?
Fishon I know that you are not depressed because of Steve. Please don’t take everything I say so seriously or so literally. It was a joke. And it was made because Steve didn’t respond to my saying his theology was overly negative.
Where is the Via Positiva, Steve? Where is the rejoicing? You carry on as though God doesn’t love us. And now you’ll say, Well he loves us despite us being revolting worms, whereas I’ve grown up in a church tradition that tells us that we are beautiful human people.
Tiggy…despite the fact that we can never be good enough other than for Jesus, God loves us, calls us His Own, and depends on His Love to be shown on the earth through us. If we allow Him, His Love will maintain and sustain us. We are joint heirs to the throne with Jesus…we are called to do everything Jesus did and greater things…we can’t earn this …it is grace…God’s unmerited favor.
The rough in my previous post is from what Steve had posted to those who visited his blog. He doesn’t allow nastiness on his blog.
Steve doesn’t allow nastiness? What about his nasty theology? I don’t know why you’re telling ME the above, I know that. Steve doesn’t think we’re good enough for God, t hat God has some kind of schizoid relationship to us where he thinks we’re shit but loves us. I don’t buy that.
I did a teaching practice in a Catholic school and one of the teachers there who was a nun kept telling the kids t hey were all sinners every time she thought they were misbehaving in class. My nephew who is half Jewish was told by his Religious Education teacher (in a state school!) that he was going to Hell. I consider that kind of thing to be a form of child abuse. If I wanted people telling me I’m bad, I’d have stayed living with my parents. Whatever one’s theological justifications, it’s very destructive and does no good whatsoever. I also think it’s very sad if someone feels th at negatively about th emselves and others.
PL,
As I stated earlier…you started it. I was not the one who started throwing insults around such as (would-be) “cult leader”.
I don’t appreciate that and will not let you get away with those kinds of attacks.
I can be as civil as the next guy, but I won’t be a punching bag for people either.
Tiggy,
Nasty theology? Nasty, that God loves and forgives sinners who do not deserve Him?
That nothing is demanded of us for our salvation, that God does it all…is nasty?
Because that is my theology.
Thanks ladies.
Steve….then what is this thing you call “my theolgy” if nothing is required. At least that is necessary. Do you have what you claim to have without it?
FiF,
Good doctrine, or theology is important…but it is not necessary for salvation.
Christ Jesus is the One who saves us. We are not saved by our good doctrine (thanks be to God)
The theology I espouse is one of freedom. freedom from having to ‘do’ anything at all to merit salvation.
Choosing God might only be one little work…but it is one little work too many.
Nevertheless, one must choose.
We have chosen.
We have chosen to reject God.
As Jesus said (says), “I have chosen you, you do not choose me.”
But haven’t you chosen to believe that…isn’t that ‘your theology’ ?
I can believe the theology, but I can’t believe in God on my own (no one can).
Steve… you were already into it with a couple of other people when I came in…and I thought we were having a discussion when you decided to tell me that all evangelicals, baptists and non denoms were dead wrong and that it wasn’t necessary to accept Jesus…then it went down hill. Unless you respect the beliefs of others…and all I.m saying is respect…you expect that everyone will accept your beliefs as the ultimate truth…they will lash back. This is what I have been complaining about…not that you have different beliefs, but that you feel you can put down others beliefs and tell them that only you Lutherans have the “one true way.” I call this the “you’re full of crap and are going to hell unless you believe like I do” school of evangelism. Did it ever occur to you to find a common ground and then treat the differences with respect? That promotes discussion. I will quote you when you felt people were attacking your beliefs…”how can you live with yourselves when you know you’re judging my beliefs.’ WE ALL DESERVE RESPECT FOR WHAT WE BELIEVE AND YOU GIVE NO RESPECT. If you read through you’ll see I’m not the only one complaining.
PL,
Ok…ok.
Truce.
I’ll play nice…you play nice…deal?
Thanks, PL.
- Steve
Well (we’ve been down this road),if God is the active principle and absolutely nothing is required on our part, why fault those who disbelieve? If we can’t believe on our own, why shld we be held responsible if the ‘illusion believing’ has nothing to do with us?
Similiarly,If I’m found guilty of a crime, it’s only because I was free to choose otherwise. We don’t punish those who can’t be responsible for their actions
I meant the ‘illusion of believing’
Here’s where it started…you out and out insulted all of us. The people that are the most “committed to Jesus” are the people that bore me to tears with their ’spirituality’ and contrived obedience.
They are so self-focused and self-obsessed. They act alike, they talk alike, they march in goosestep like a little fascist army of obedient Christians. Most of them are flat out phonies and a fair amount are actually deluded. They actaully think they are ‘doing it’…living a pretty good Christian life. They are prideful and self-righteous.
No…our decisions for Jesus are always weak, always less than is demanded.
His decision for us is what counts, and those that trust that decision by God, for them, act out their Christian lives in faith. Trusting that the Lord is faithful, even when they are faithless.
Hadn’t seen your truce when I posted the last comment. Yes, truce, if that means you’ll discuss and respect the beliefs of others.
That’s a great line though,
‘They act alike, they talk alike, they march in goosestep like a little fascist army of obedient Christians.’
Though not as good as,
“Why do people in church seem like cheerful, brainless tourists on a packaged tour of the Absolute?’
God shouldn’t have made us as we are and then expected us to behave – that was just naive, especially for someone omniscient!
I refuse to go to churches that are like that. Fortunately, city churches are usually alive. The challenges of city life are great and so the transformation of peoples lives is great. Inner city ministry, where you see gang members turn around, heroin addicts put down the needle for good,etc. On that package tour you meet a God who will give you all sorts of goodies if you are good little boys and girls.
No one was suggesting that the described church wasn’t alive. I go to a city church where there are former alcoholics and drug addicts, but people still seem to be brainless in their credulousness. Healing for instance, which I’m all in favour of. I hear all these tales of miraculous healings, but there is very little scientific evidence for them and mostly they’re of the kind, ‘His leg grew an inch.’ Well that happens every week n Pilates classes all over the country – it just relaxes down. ‘She was able to raise her arm above her head’. Yes, so? That was never medically impossible, just inadvisable!
Tiggy, there are a lot of real documented healings, as well as those which could be iffy. I was healed of systemic lupus erythmatosis…documented…I have seen blind eyes opened, paranoid schizophrenia healed, epilepsy, innumerable cases of cancer and heart troubles…all documented. Doctors get a little messed up….oh well, maybe they’re in remission…of course they just arrived at the ER with the tumor that just fell off them wrapped in a towel. My daughter had hip surgery and is supposed to have a 23% disability…only supposed to be able to live a sedentary life…until she finishes her degree, she waitresses at one of the busiest restaurants in Chicago and works out…no problem. While there are a lot of ministries who are making much ado about nothing, there are those which are quietly going along and have genuine documented proof of the healings.
I’m not saying t hey don’t happen, but people don’t try to get any proof or even collect evidence. They just state it’s happened without checking with a doctor and people just believe it without asking for evidence. That was why I gave those two examples. Those are the sort of things cited at my church more often t han not and I remain totally unconvinced by them, whereas many in the congregation just lap it all up. It’s not the truth or otherwise of healing that I’m pointing out here, but the fact that so many of the congregation seem to have left their brains behind at the door.
Of that I’m sure…there are people who will believe anything they hear from the platform of a church…and even from the whackiest person in a church. They figure they heard it at church, it couldn’t be wrong, could it? Duh! We have an obligation to check out everything we hear…otherwise we leave ourselves wide open to deceptions. Too many people have doctrines they preach that they say come from scripture…and in a manner, they have, because they take one or two scriptures out of context and build a doctrine around it. There are too many pastors who tell their people that they must be totally obedient and they tell them what to wear, how to vote, how to educate their children, how much to donate( and yes, I believe in tithing…I don’t believe in a pastor asking how much someone makes and then ascertaining how much to expect in the offering). We are not meant to be clones, but unique expressions of the Divine. This is what attracted me to this blog…David thinks outside the box and there are no sacred cows.
I think we’re the only ones on here, Tiggy. Why don’t we move it to facebook.
You know for once, and you may be surpised at this, I don’t say anything when they come out with this stuff about people’s legs growing longer. The lady who tends to say it and who is one of the church leaders is so nice that I don’t want to risk upsetting her or cause ill feeling between us. She used to teach Biology, but she is quite ditzy anyway and rather hyper. That’s part of what I like about her.
I have on occasion asked that they could pray for both my legs to grow longer.
Oh, t hey’re probably lurking. Except Steve, he’ll be out clubbing with Fishon. Aforesaid nice lady is my friend on Facebook. I think I need to go to bed now anyway as unusually tired. My Brazilian friends came today and I feel sad now they’re gone, but hopefully they’ll be spending Christmas with me. They came down from Essex, not Brazil. Their little girl Olivia is so cute. It’s 1.30 here and I have to get up for church tomorrow and before that collect some bookcases I got on Freecycle. I also got an electric paper stripper so I can decorate my flat – landlord permitting.
Have a good sleep! Strangely enough, I’m the one who’d be apt to be out clubbing…I love jazz and blues…there just isn’t anyone to play with on Sat. nights.
Tiggy said, on October 10th, 2009 at 8:32 pm
Oh, t hey’re probably lurking. Except Steve, he’ll be out clubbing with Fishon.
_______why no, tiggy, was on a date with the wife. My clubbing days are long gone, and the sad thing about those days, I wouldn’t take my wife. Thank goodness she waited for me to grow up.
Alice, I lOVE rock and roll.
Jerry…guess the sermon is done if you’re playing…or is it procrastinating? What decade(s) of rock and roll? I sort of quit with it in the 80′s except for U2 and the Police…well actually Sting…I can do w/o the Police. I like the early stuff…50′s dowap…60′s funk…and of course the Beatles, the Stones, Janis Joplin, and Hendrix. The ministry I started out with had a bunch of ex rockers…they used to be called Dark Star…opened for Deep Purple, and then when Blackmore left and became Rainbow their singer was on their first album. He’s a piece of work…rents haunted castles and conjures up whatever cares to answer. I could tell you stories. Glad to hear you take the wife out on dates…they are essential for a good relationship.
Hey Fishon, at least you go out on a Saturday night. I would like to go clubbing, but most of the people in their thirties I know say they feel too old!!! I find that really sad and I miss dancing. The nightclub nextdoor to me has people of all ages go there and I’ve been there twice with my friend who’s 70 and her friend who’s in his 60s and we had a great time.
I agree wi th you about the 80s, PL, though it’s primarily British music I’m thinking of, but I’ve always really liked 60s/early 70s music and used to feel sad I was too late to be a hippy. Big Neil Young fan. I hate 50s music though – it always seems twee and lacking in depth except for s ome of the Black music. Dark Star is a good name. I mostly listen to singer/songwriters now.
Steve…now that we’ve agreed to play nice, I still have some genuine questions I need answered.
1) How do you account for Acts2:38…? Peter tells them to repent…that means to change your mind about something. It is evident that he is speaking about the fact that they had crucified Jesus, and now needed to accept that He was Lord and Christ.
2.)How do you account for Acts16:30&31? The jailer asks what he should do to be saved…and Peter tells him to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
In neither of these incidences is the answer that they had to do nothing. Both of them are indicative of the fact that accepting that Jesus is Lord and Christ is necessary for salvation.
3) How do you account foe 1Cor27-29? If the elements of communion are agents which save and forgive us, how can we eat and drink unworthily? How can we drink damnation to ourselves if the act of partaking of the elements is what saves and forgives us?
Finally, regarding infant Baptism…there is a dispute among scholars as to whether the word household in scripture included the women and children or was just speaking about males over the age of twelve. There is evidence of both beliefs. Also, if infant baptism was a widely accepted practice, why were there disputes over it that lasted until the 4th or 5th century when it was made doctrinal? And, yes, Tertulian was considered a heretic later in his life, but then, wasn’t Martin Luther considered one also?
Yawn, the only thing that interests me about Luther is that he wrote a lot of his stuff while sitting on the toilet. But then I haven’t seen the film yet and I do like Jonathan Pryce – I’m sure I have it on video somewhere.
You should read ‘Wittenburg Door’, Steve, good Lutheran website.
PL,
When we are told to believe, or repent, or be perfect (Jesus), God fulfills in us that which He requires.
St. Paul speaks of the Holy Spirit leading us to repentance. The Lord works repentance in us through His Word of Law and Gospel. It is not a work that we do.
The elements of Communion are not what forgives and saves us, but rather the Word, or the promise of God attached to those elements.
No where in Scripture is there a certain age attached to God’s Word of promise.
Jesus even said that we ought become as the little ones. I think He said that because the little ones are not as jaded and capable of a great deal of trust.
John the Baptist was quickened by God withy faith when he lept for joy at the presence of Jesus…when yet he was still (they both were) in the womb.
So, God can (we believe) and does act in baptism at 8 months old…or 80 years old. Age is not a barrier to the Holy Spirit and the promises that He gives in baptism.
Yeah…I guess you are right about what they thought of Luther. He certainly had his faults, but he certainly knew the gospel and did not stray from scripture.
Thanks, PL.
Tiggy,
Thanks for the heads-up on The Wittenberg Trail!
– Steve
PS- I’m a bit under the weather so am not checking the computer as often.
Tiggy,
Ooops…I menat ‘Wittenberg Door’.
The eye with which I see God is the same eye with which God sees me.
I am a fountain, You are my water.
I flow from You to You.
I am an eye, You are my light,
I look from You to You.
You are neither right nor left.
My foot and my arm too.
I am a traveler, You are my road.
I go from You to You.
Steve…are you ok? Is there someone to look after you? I pray that God remove whatever is ailing you. I wish you peace…the ancient Hebrew meaning of the word that is translated peace is : perfection, wholeness, completness…nothing missing…nothing broken.
PL,
Thanks for your conern, PL, and your prayers.
It’s nothing serious. A little flu bug and a muscle spasm in my back.
A couple of days and I’ll be as bad as new!
Thanks again!
Either one of those is enough to make you feel totally wretched. Are you sure you’re not detoxifying from some thing?
Not sure… but I’m going to see the doctor tomorrow.
I’ll ask him about that and see what he says.
Thanks, PL.
‘detoxifying from some thing’
What??? What does that mean? It makes it sound like he’s got a bad hangover or is coming off drugs! I hope you didn’t take anything when you went clubbing, Steve.
Don’t worry, you probably just have Swine Flu.
U GUYS HAVE NO LIFE!!!!