Discussion, although sometimes necessary for an immediate solution, isn’t the method to bring about peace among all people. So, I have been thinking quite a bit lately about dialog. Is it even possible? I think so. Some think that in the field of religion it is impossible because, for true dialog to occur, each party must suspend their own beliefs, certainties and assumptions. And, as we all may know, religion is one of the most embedded fields for non-negotiables. Here’s another list, comparing discussion with dialog:
- Discussion comes from a fixed position. Dialog suspends its position.
- Discussion exchanges opinions. Dialog discovers new ideas.
- Discussion is in favor of its own view. Dialog is open to the view of the other.
- Discussion attempts to convert the other. Dialog listens to the other.
- Discussion produces agreement, compromise or division. Dialog creates a new place.
- Discussion can become more rigid. Dialog softens and opens.
- Discussion can become confrontational. Dialog is sympathetic.
- Discussion has non-negotiables. For dialog, everything is negotiable.
- Discussion will not produce deep change. Dialog invites it.
- Discussion does not require a spirit of goodwill. Dialog assumes unity.
I suggest that we find ways to dialog. This could begin with ourselves. We can dialog with ourselves first by suspending our beliefs, opinions or assumptions… those ideas we think are absolutely necessary… to discover new ways of thinking and even different and creative modes of thought and ways of relating. Then we can expand this out to others close to us, and eventually to our enemies. I’m asking: is it even possible? Can a religious person suspend their conclusions in order to discover a new way of being? As someone once said, “The cup has to be empty to hold something.”
(Thanks to David Bohm, who’s ideas in quantum physics have encouraged me to think even further in this direction.)
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actually gary, the “dia” means “through”… through the word… so it is talking about meaning.
I stand corrected. My early Latin failed me for I confused di-two, with dia-across. (According to my Webster’s, it is not through but across. However, that may be too fine a distinction.) So, a dialogue is not just between two persons but between two or among several.
I consider the meaning in Greek even more profoundly applicable in Luke 10 than my earlier misunderstanding. Especially today, in the Post Modern Era, dialogue and discussion are essential. My friends in Taiwan established seven churches by following the Luke 10 model.
Thanks for the correction.
TitforTat said, on September 2nd, 2009 at 8:49 pm
Sure I believe Him. Why wouldn’t I believe John 12:32?(fishon)
Cool.
No need to worry about your Muslim friends soul I guess. Your Lord has him covered too.
______For sure the Lord has him covered.
______I am soooo happy that you are now using scripture to prove your point. You have come a long way. So I take since you are siteing scripture, you will agree with these! “For many are invited, but few are chosen.” “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.”
fishon
Tiggy said, on September 2nd, 2009 at 7:38 pm
I wish people wouldn’t have a go at Fishon for his beliefs. Why can’t people be more tolerant? Look at how much he puts up with from the rest of us.
____Tiggy, thank you for coming to my rescue. But I promise you, it is ok. I know full well that there will be reactions to my responces, just as David understands full well that he will get them too.
In fact, I believe the ones who take me on, to my face, so to speak, really are tolerant. Maybe not of my beliefs, but they are tolerant enough to take me on. The ones who are not tolerant, but claim to be the most tolerant among us are the ones that David mentioned to me a few months ago that had e-mailed him and asked him to remove me. Now that is intolerance. The easy thing for them to do was just not read what I wrote. But they chose to read and complain, when they already knew my positions.
Thank you for your concern.
jerry [fishon]
Bob asked:
Tell me fishon, what was your intention behind the quote?
What do you think that verse says about me, a non believer?
What do you think that verse means to me, a non believer?
#1. My intention was to show that just what the scripture sited says. I don’t figure the scripture sited needs me to interprete it.
#2. Well, Bob, I did not realize you were not a believer. It is not so important about what I think [know] what the verse says about you, a non-believer; what is important is what you think it says about you, a non-believer.
#3. Bob, I have no idea what the verse means to you? How could I possibly know that? On second thought, you being a non-believer, maybe the scripture means nothing to you. Why would it mean anything to you if you are a non-believer?
fishon, if this verse is from the Spirit, why would you quote it at someone you believe won’t be able to understand it anyway?
____Again, didn’t realize you were a non-believer.
____And I will and do quote scripture to non-believers in hopes that the Holy Spirit is moving in their life as He moved into mine before I believed. You see, before I was a believer the Holy Spirit opened my eyes to a portion of scripture to which I responded. Kind of like the parable of the sower that spread seed along the path, the rocky places , among the thorns, and on good soil.
Feel free to find something that should be “spiritually discerned” and see if I can understand it.
____No, Bob, I will not play that game.
fishon
fishon said – “…if this verse is from the Spirit, why would you quote it at someone you believe won’t be able to understand it anyway?”
____”Again, didn’t realize you were a non-believer.”
As I pointed out, “I realize you did not direct it at me, but I have no doubt that you do think it applies to me also.” So I guess my question stands unanswered – why would you quote it at someone you believe won’t be able to understand it anyway? If the verse says that one must have the Spirit to understand the things from the Spirit, why would you quote a verse “from the Spirit” to someone who does not have the Spirit? Makes no sense to me.
fishon said – “And I will and do quote scripture to non-believers in hopes that the Holy Spirit is moving in their life as He moved into mine before I believed. You see, before I was a believer the Holy Spirit opened my eyes to a portion of scripture to which I responded. Kind of like the parable of the sower that spread seed along the path, the rocky places , among the thorns, and on good soil.”
So, let me get this straight, you use a verse that says that those who do not have the Spirit will not understand the things of the Spirit, in hopes that the Spirit will use that verse to “open” the “eyes” of the one without the Spirit so that they will then believe in the Spirit? So, 1 Corinthians 2:14 is true, some of the times?
fishon – “#1. My intention was to show that just what the scripture sited says. I don’t figure the scripture sited needs me to interprete it.”
Do you assume that every verse you quote will be understood by us who read it? Isn’t that a rather naive view? Are you suggesting that what ministers should do from now on is stand and read scripture aloud to their congregation…no need to offer any explanation of what they just read?
fishon – “#3. Bob, I have no idea what the verse means to you? How could I possibly know that?”
My question was “What do you think that verse means to me, a non believer?” I was not asking you what you know, but what you think. Dialog!
fishon – “On second thought, you being a non-believer, maybe the scripture means nothing to you. Why would it mean anything to you if you are a non-believer?”
For someone who claims to have been an atheist, you sure don’t seem to remember what it was like to be an atheist. As a non believer (former believer) the bible does have meaning to me, in that I understand much of what I read in it. I just don’t consider much of what I read in it to be true or factual, but I do understand it.
fishon – “Feel free to find something that should be “spiritually discerned” and see if I can understand it.”
____”No, Bob, I will not play that game.”
You quote a verse that says that I, a non believer, one who does not accept the Spirit and does not have the Spirit, will not be able to understand the things that come from the Spirit. I ask you to test that verse. Why would you quote a verse that you believe to be true, no, a verse that you KNOW to be true, but then refuse to prove that it is true?
fishon, you accusing me of “playing that game” is an obvious cop-out. What better way to show (me) that what you KNOW to be true, is true, than to test what you say is true. Just a simple test. If you are not willing to offer me some proof that 1 Corinthians 2:14 is true, then it shows how little confidence you actually have in the very verse you site. And if you have such little confidence in it, isn’t it time that you admit that, with regard to your religious beliefs, you don’t really KNOW much, but you do BELIEVE much. Isn’t it time to admit that you don’t KNOW that 1 Corinthians 2:14 is true, you just sort of BELIEVE it is true (but not to the extent that you are willing to prove that it is true).
…or, if your faith is exempt from all reasonable questions and dialog, then just ignore everything I just said.
I am soooo happy that you are now using scripture to prove your point. You have come a long way. So I take since you are siteing scripture, you will agree with these! “For many are invited, but few are chosen.” “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.”
fishon
Now you’ve gone and confused me. In the other scripture Jesus says he will take ALL, and these suggest only a limited amount. Hmmm, contradiction. I think I need you to tell me what he “Really” meant.
TforT,
Now you’ve gone and confused me. In the other scripture Jesus says he will take ALL, and these suggest only a limited amount. Hmmm, contradiction. I think I need you to tell me what he “Really” meant.
_______Oops, tfort, go back and read your original scripture reference. Give me the quote where Jesus says “he will TAKE [caps mine] ALL.”
fishon
“If the verse says that one must have the Spirit to understand the things from the Spirit, why would you quote a verse “from the Spirit” to someone who does not have the Spirit? Makes no sense to me” (Bob)
Because even fishon has to admit he doesn’t quite understand the ’spirit’. The definition of the ’spirit’ is what’s lacking here – a more detailed explanation of terms might help in the dialgue.
As for me, I believe there is a spirit – as to what and how that works – I am not quite and totally clear. But I do know that some things happen and the spirit of it can cause one to change their heart and mind because of the results.
King Jr, Gandhi, and movements for the under-classed people in society move me – spiritually.
Many of us hold that pre-believers can and do have “spiritual Insights” that are brought about by the Holy Spirit of God. However, as it says, “That person will not accept what is occuring” as being from God.
It seems to me that the passage in I Corinthians indicates any person, even a Christian, who attempts to understand the depths of God with a “natural” mind, e.g. secular humanistic mind, cannot really understand or accept what is going on.
Look at the data relating health and church attendance. The data are clear. Christians have better health and love longer. My agnostic friends and professional colleagues reject the notion that this increase is related to God or the Holy Spirit but usually accept the data.
There are numerous cases of people being healed or significantly improved with prayer and Christian love. My secular counseling colleagues reject that out of hand in most cases.
Look at the data relating health and church attendance. The data are clear. Christians have better health and love longer.
So what? maybe they have less to worry about, but so what? These are just stats anyway, it doesn’t mean that there aren’t people outside the church who have better health and live longer. Jesus didn’t live very long anyway.
Gary: I’ve read that there’s evidence that being a part of a religious or spiritual community may promote long life. I’ve never read that being a Christian increases your lifespan. I would be highly skeptical of that research.
Are you interested is seeing some of it or does your scepticism forbid that action?
What I am suggesting Gary is that the fact that these Christians have a meaningful faith, philosophy or passion, and are part of a community that supports and nurtures that passion, might be the reason, not because they’re baptized believers.
I agree. You hit the nail on the head. Baptized Believers filled with spite, bitterness, etc wil make each other sicker.
It is a package deal. God’s truth, God’s power and God’s love.
And, the greatest is love.
You want to be great? Get God’s agape love.
Preach on!
Why is it always agape love? Women’s spirituality tends to be about Eros love – the power of connectedness. That’s what I experience in relation to God and nature and people and myself.
fishon
Very good. I see your point.
You are right. Agape, however, encompasses eros, phila, etc and gives it a sense of service rather than selfishness.
Gary, you make it sound so very unappealing! Maybe it’s just my personality type, but for me serving others comes out of a sense of connection rather than being impersonal. I admit that restricts it to being less than universal, but it’s going to be that anyway. We all have our limits. The political causes I’m involved in are ones that I feel passionately about – I can’t be involved in every cause.
I don’t know where you get your definition of ‘agape’ from, but it’s not necessarily a word denoting an unselfish love. It’s used in Matthew 5:46; Luke 6:32 to denote selfish love. Why do you say it encompasses eros and philia?
Gary Sweeten – “The data are clear. Christians have better health and love longer. My agnostic friends and professional colleagues reject the notion that this increase is related to God or the Holy Spirit but usually accept the data.”
But Gary, I believe the percentages are negligible (1-2%, perhaps a little more). But one would rightly ask, is this minor difference due to God, or due to just being a part of a group of like minded individuals. And if it is due to God, why is he neglecting all the other Christians who are not happier or healthier?
Gary Sweeten – There are numerous cases of people being healed or significantly improved with prayer and Christian love. My secular counseling colleagues reject that out of hand in most cases.
I have seen study results showing that prayer has no benefit at all. I have seen study results that show terminally ill Christians are more likely to ask for drastic medical measures costing thousands of dollars, only prolonging the inevitable.
So what do we do with this?
Lets say we take 500 agnostics and 500 Christians. Follow their physical and mental health till their death. If the study shows any benefit for the Christian side, it will be very insignificant.
Now, if EVERY Christian lived a longer and happier life than all of the agnostics, you would have something (what, I am not sure, unless it was proved that they lived longer and happier due to supernatural intervention by the Christian God). But if only 1-2% benefit more than the agnostics, well, that is not something I would brag about.
Care to discuss the divorce rates?
Tiggy,
Phila indicates friendship or brotherly/sisterly concern. We might say, “I like this person and I treat him kindly.” That is the meaning of the English term translated “love” in Matthew 5:46, I believe. It is not selfish but kindly.
Eros is usually translated as “romantic love”. You indicate that females seem to show eros more than males. Some would say that is also empathy.
Agape is a term used by the NT writers who did not have a good Greek Term to translate Hesed or “Covenant Love” from Hebrew. It usually mean caring for people with no strings attached.
Christians are able to have and to show all these types of love. You may wish to read C.S. Lewis book on that subject. You are not wrogn in any way, IMO, to focus on friendship and kindness.
Bob,
You put a lot on the plate. I have never seen the 2% figure before and need to check it out a bit. It is not easy to get data on the results of prayer, religious involvement, etc. But when we look at church attendance and health the outcome results are large and in the direction of Christian commitment.
No Church: African American-67 Yrs White American–77Yrs (10 Yrs)
Weekly or Less–African American-75 Yrs White American-80 (5 Yrs)
Weekly or More–African American-80 Yrs White American-83 (3 Yrs)
Whites gain six years of life and Blacks gain 13 years, double that of Whites, by attending church regularly. I think that is quite significant. And, Black churches seem to produce more health than White churches. I wonder why.
I would love to discuss divorce rates. What have you got to say about that?
There have been some studies indicating that regular attendance at a religious service can increase life expectancy by 2-3 years. Why this is so hasn’t been definitively proven. Churches often contain more women than men–women live longer. Many churchgoers steer clear of alcohol, tobacco, and other drugs. It’s proven that a people with a greater number of social contacts (not just through church) will experience less depression and more happiness, on average, and optimism has been shown to increase longevity as well. Churches can provide support and encouragement in getting and staying healthy. So, there could be many reasons why people who attend church live longer.
As far as “prayer being effective” studies–the studies I’ve read cancel each other out.
I have a much wider understanding of eros than empathy. I’m not sure one feels empathy for nature, at least not in the way I mean – I wasn’t talking about feeling sorry for pandas running out of bamboo etc. For me, eros means connection and is fundamental to the nature of the universe. Agape is to do with the will and intention and can go towards good or bad. It’s much more individual, whereas eros is about becoming part of a whole. The romantic, sexual element is just an example of this sort of connection. I certainly don’t view eros as kindness, though it may result in that.
Much as I love C.S. Lewis, I do think scholarship has moved on since his time and we can’t always go back to a word as though its meaning is static. Language changes and is reclaimed. The word ‘Paradise’ is in the process of being reclaimed. I hope we can go back to the original meaning of the word ‘perfect’ as well, to mean complete, whole – as it did when the NT was translated, rather than the meaning it took on much later. I think that has caused a lot of confusion.
Hardly anybody goes to church in England – no idea if that affects our health or longevity.
@Tiggy,
Regular attendance at religious services aside, do you drink tea? Tea will increase your longevity:
http://achievinglongevity.blogspot.com/2007/07/black-tea-or-green-tea-which-is.html
There is something about just holding a warm cup between your hands, breathing in the earthy or delicate fragrance, and savoring the heat as it wends its way over your tongue and into your chest that just soothes the soul. There is something “erotic” about drinking tea.
Recently I had my own definition of “eros” stretched by the information I encountered in the book ‘They Mystery of Love” by Marc Gafni. While reading it (and savoring many cups of tea, of course) I had several “aha” moments.
Here’s my raised teacup and a “May you have good health and a long life!”
Clink-clink.
That should be “The Mystery of Love.” I hate typos…
Of course I drink tea – I’m British. In theory then, British people should live longer than Canadians.
I’m not feeling I really want to live long to be honest. And I don’t particularly have any desire to go anywhere afterwards – I’d rather just cease to exist. The thought of it fills me with blessed relief. In fact I think I should be mercifully put down.
There’s someone who held me in their arms a month or so ago and I just wanted to die there so I’d never have to leave.
All right then, Tiggy, I”ll raise my cup again with a “May you fully enjoy your life today–each and every moment!” (Clink-clink?)
You have such interesting insights. You challenge me to think about life and to be aware. I really would not want to see you “put down,” but must admit, I’ve had similar feelings about my own life at times.
I hope that you can rediscover those comforting arms (or a similar pair) to hug you through the hurts…
Thanks. I’m going out to buy milk for tea and some biscuits. English people have to have biscuits with their tea, to dip in it. It’s what we do in a crisis – we make a cup of tea.
I think I’ll find my way back to his comforting arms again, but I never know when. It could be next week or it could be months. I feel like the Time Traveller’s Wife except at least she was his wife.
…For his research, he pored over age-specific, actuarial death rates derived from census statistics, comparing effects of regular exercise, cholesterol-lowering drugs and church attendance. All three have health benefits, he found. Exercise can add three to five additional years to life, statin therapy 2.5 to 3.5 years and church attendance two to three years.
link – http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2006/apr/03/20060403-103809-9183r/
Seems there are numerous studies, and the conclusions all differ, but, generally, people who attend church regularly do live longer. WHY?
“Others agreed that the study’s results were due to the social benefits of churchgoing rather than churchgoing itself.”
link http://www.dailycal.org/article/8160/researchers_link_reduced_health_risks_with_weekly_
“Praying for patients undergoing heart operations does not improve their outcomes, a US study suggests.”
link – http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4681771.stm
11% of the adult population is currently divorced.
25% of adults have had at least one divorce during their lifetime.
Divorce rates among conservative Christians were significantly higher than for other faith groups, and much higher than Atheists and Agnostics experience.
link – http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm
Gary, I don’t know what to make of all this, do you?
Statistical correlations are not causations.
OMG, I bumped into the Time Traveller in the supermarket but it wasn’t a moment for being held, just comparing the contents of our shopping trolleys under the fluorescent lights. Such bathos – you see, next week, next month or next day!
I wonder if a lot of the people who are currently divorced came after after getting in a bad relationship or being divorced. We know that a high percentage of those who hurt get involved in things “spiritual” and “religious” after the pain becomes awfully high. For example, some 42% of all persons who seek a “professional Help” go to a Clergy Person with 18% to a Doctor and 8% to a Mental Health Professional. Thus, many people seek a “Higher Power” and/or God when in trouble. After diagnosis with AIDS many people return to a church and ask for prayer.
It is also Conservative/Evangelical Churches that usually have Divorce Recovery Groups, 12 Step Groups, Al Anon, Peer Counseling, Pastoral Counseling, Kindness Outreaches, Single Parent Outreaches, Inner Healing Ministries, and Free Prayer Ministries. These can all swell the ranks of those churches.
I have consulted with and trained Evangelical and Charismatic churches for years in integrating faith, worship, psychology, medicine, fellowship, kindness, etc. They alone offer hope for the hurting. Liberal churches and secular/agnostic groups have no outreaches or healing groups so why would people struggling with a divorce go there for help?
Steve Sjogren’s work is marvellous in that regard but churches must also develop a caring infrastructure based on biblical ideas.
Many of these research reports are difficualt to understand for they confuse prayer with a pill. I am on a Committee discussing faith and medicine at University of Cincinnat. Many of the researchers do not understand the most basic aspects of the Christian life and badly mismanage the research. Dispite this, even they can see that faith applied has a positive outcome in almost every case.
We can not separate social support from church attendance nor should we. On the road to Emmaus it was the social interaction that opened the eyes of two followers to Jesus. In 1 Corinthians we see love as the greatest healer. Love does not happen in a vacuum but through fellowship.
Shalom,
Gary
‘They alone offer hope for the hurting. Liberal churches and secular/agnostic groups have no outreaches or healing groups so why would people struggling with a divorce go there for help? ‘
Wow, you do generalise! I don’t even know what country you’re talking about. I know of plenty of ‘liberal’ or as we prefer to call them, ‘progressive’ churches that have outreaches and healing groups. They also have caring and healing people. I have been helped myself through them. Don’t limit the work of the Spirit to people of your own theological or liturgical bias. In any case, t hose old definitions are breaking down. I know of Pentecostal churches that are involved in Celtic spirituality and Charismatic churches that are very strong on social justice issues. I also know Progressive churches who are big on healing – often they are smaller groups though and don’t have the same kind of resources or money.
I was gonna put this in the previous blog but thought it would be more appropriate here
I get annoyed by the superiority that often accompanies the edict to proclaim the gospel – I dont get it – the Bible contains more than 300 verses on the poor, social justice, and God’s deep concern for both. there are very few about proclaiming the gospel by comparison.
There are so many evangelists and Christians out there proclaiming the gospel – saying we got the good news – we got the only way to heaven etc. They go out seeking conversions to their faith. Where is the whole stack of people that are prepared to go out and be taught by the people they encounter. The word humility appears in significant numbers too. Are we taking notice of the emphasis’s in the bible?
Where are the people that are prepared to get out there and be willing to be taught? I have found that people have more to teach me than I ever thought possible. The ratio of ears to mouths is a good indicator in this regard. Not saying we shouldn’t talk but being humble and open is a good place to be.
I love a couple of quotes from Thomas Merton:
The beginning of love is to let those we love be perfectly themselves, and not to twist them to fit our own image. otherwise we only love the reflection of ourselves we find in them!
And here is a part of a prayer by the same man:
I have no idea where I am going.
I do not see the road ahead of me.
I cannot know for certain where it will end.
Nor do I really know myself,
and the fact that I think I am following
your will does not mean
that I am actually doing so.
I love this mans humility and wisdom – we could use more of it – this is the stuff that can enable us to begin dialogue instead of creating more “mini me’s” and assuming that we are right.
Just a few thoughts…
Tiggy,
Sorry about the generalization. I did use the term “Usually” but that was still too broad.