Should I go back?
On my vacation I met with many people who have left the church. They are people I know and love. So from the start I want to say that these are generalizations. I do realize others might have more positive things to say. But what I hear from the people I talk with is pretty consistent. This is not my opinion. I’m not making judgments. This is just what I hear:
- When they’ve been gone from church for a while and return they are all shocked by the strange lingo that people talk. It is a coded and getto-ized language that no one else understands but insiders.
- When they go back more than once, suddenly there is a huge feeling of expectation that weighs down on them. They know that if they commit at all, they are going to have to meet certain expectations.
- Although few admit it, shame is an important and powerful tool used to keep sins, weaknesses, struggles and differences concealed.
- One quickly learns that although indulgences ended officially many years ago, money is still an effective means to earn rank, privilege and allowances within a community.
- One discovers almost immediately what the belief system to be embraced is. Critical and inquisitive thinking is generally not welcomed.
- Although it is rarely ever explicit, competition and the disdain for other religions and even other churches percolates through the attitudes, language and actions of the community.
- Orientation, condition and status (examples: divorced, single mom, living together, gay, addict, etc.) are the equivalent of brands that are accepted or not.
- If you come and go, in the end no one really seems to notice or care.
- You are expected to grow only if it enables conformity.
- Even though, if you keep going, you feel you are being knitted into the community, there is a strange feeling that there is something conditional about your acceptance and membership.
This list could get longer–much longer. You get it. You really, really get it (with apologies to Sally Fields)
most of these to me seem to be about openness and acceptance. being real, being open and accepting to others… most of these issues are rooted in us being cold and manipulative. :S
Exactly!!
You feel like you have to leave your intellectual honesty at the door is one of my big ones. Oh and BIG FAKE HAPPY SMILE lol
Yup. I heard almost all of them from a 21 yo again last night. A repeat of countless conversations I’ve had.
Yep. I have been in/around church most of my 40 years. Have seen this quite a bit and have even perpetuated the faults.
I read a book several months ago titled Unchurched that outlines and delves into this topic quite well. One interesting thing is that most of the unchurched are actually DEchurched..people who grew up in the church and bolted when they reach adulthood.
The church is a mess. Always has been. Having said that, I do still believe that the bride of Christ is beautiful, thriving, loving, healing, open, accepting and being perfected/washed day by day.
Wow. You (or those whose expressions you are passing along here) just validated why I haven’t gone to church for ages, and why I have absolutely no inclination to ever do so again.
The comments here are fascinating also, especially the one that mentions “the bride of Christ,” as it relates back to Point #1 perfectly!
Spot on observations by some very intuitive seekers NP. 1, 5, and 8 are the biggest that I’ve witnessed. I personally struggle with 6 and 7. I’m getting better.
Saavy is also right on about the plastic people. We call them mannequins. About 3 years ago my wife and I decided to dispense with caring about what others think about us in churches. This brought pain and paid dividends – sort of a separating the sheep from the goats as it were. “Authenticity” is seldom encouraged because of the TMI (too much information) syndrome. People rarely want to engage for fear of being responsible for knowing about a need which will encroach on their “clear consience” and they’ll either be forced to put works to their faith or live with the guilt of not responding. So many cruise-control christians. God love-em.
I haven’t read an NP post in quite awhile, so it’s catching up time.
Some of this stuff will never change because it’s just human nature. Those seeking a perfect church with perfect people shall seek forever.
We tend to look for a church with the thought of “what can it do for me”. If we started looking for a place where we felt we could best SERVE instead of be served, it might help quite a bit.
Lydia, did not mean to speak in church code.
“the bride of Christ” refers to followers of Jesus. The imagery and symbolism of marriage is applied to Christ and believers quite a bit in the Bible. For example:
“Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, so that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.”
Cheers.
NP,
I agree with #2. I don’t go to church because I don’t want to get involved in the community. I guess I’m a commitment-phobe.
paula: i get that. my question is: is it possible to not impose expectations on others?
Ah, David, what a setup for the Choir to sing your song.
fishon
we are not “singing his song,’ nor are we his choir. Go talk to these people. This is what they say. Don’t crucify David because he tells what he is hearing.
As an off-note. What if this nameless, faceless generation that the charismatics are always talking about is these who are not on any roll, pay no tithe, grace no building but love the Father with their whole heart and are not shy about telling the people around them?
Barb,
My statement is far from crucifixion, Barb. Those 10 statements have been David’s mantra for as long as I have been on this blog.
Number 1 is interesting::: 1.When they’ve been gone from church for a while and return they are all shocked by the strange lingo that people talk. It is a coded and getto-ized language that no one else understands but insiders.
__________Wow! Are you telling us, David that there WAS NOT “strange lingo” being talked when they use to go to church, but suddenly there is now “coded and getto-ized language” in use? ————-Oh, I get it. They have now grown up so, since leaving the church, that when they go back they now realize that the talk was “getto-ized.”
Barb asked:::As an off-note. What if this nameless, faceless generation that the charismatics are always talking about is these who are not on any roll, pay no tithe, grace no building but love the Father with their whole heart and are not shy about telling the people around them?
_____________I haven’t met them yet——-but then I only live in a small town–maybe it is a big city thing.
fishon
I found have found myself thinking and saying all of these things since I left the church-as-institution. I think that people still in it don’t see these things BECAUSE they are in it. Or if they do see these things in their congregations, they are not viewed as negatives, but as good things–as Biblical things to be supported.
If people inside church institutions were to leave for awhile and come back, they might be surprised by some of this (like the Christian jargon and the branding). But many of them would just say upon their return how much they missed the fellowship and how now they feel at home again. They just really don’t understand that the very things that make them feel accepted and comfortable and acceptable are the same things that make others feel rejected and uncomfortable and shamed.
The hardest thing of all as someone who was raised with church-as-instution as such an important part of life, is to keep attending and serving regularly and then gradually wake up to the fact that you don’t agree. You don’t agree with all the archaic (and strange sounding) jargon. Nor do you want to teach that jargon to newcomers. You don’t agree that everyone needs to conform to a certain way of interpreting the Bible or thinking about God. You don’t agree with all the formulas being preached and the burdens being put on the backs of baby believers. Suddenly the jargon, the conformity, and the formulas seem DANGEROUS AND WRONG.
If you stay, you feel like a hypocrite. If you leave, you are branded a heretic or apostate. Which is worse? Neither label is comfortable to wear. For me, being a hypocrite to myself and God was worse than being labeled something by someone else (who isn’t my Master). I left the church-as-institution, and I don’t regret it. But I am still the church.
I’ve had to learn a whole new vocabulary now I go to a charismatic church and not an Anglican one – terms like ‘pressing in’, ’soaking’, ‘impartation’ , ‘resting in the spirit’ and other more dubious and sexual sounding ones that I’m not sure I should even repeat here. I think they may be particular to our church leader!
Another one I heard the other day was ‘treasure-hunting’.
I like what Eugene Peterson, the writer of the Message Bible, says about the Church as an institution:::::::What other church is there besides institutional? There’s nobody who doesn’t have problems with the church, because there’s sin in the church. But there’s no other place to be a Christian except the church. There’s sin in the local bank. There’s sin in the grocery stores. I really don’t understand this naïve criticism of the institution. I really don’t get it.”
fishon
Should you go back? No. Here’s a widely-cited checklist that contains these and many other warning signs that what you thought was a church is actually some form of cult.
fishon: when Peterson says “I really don’t understand this naïve criticism of the institution,” I’m sure what he means is that it is naive to criticize the church with the naive assumption that it ought to be immune from the same faults as other institutions. It would also be silly to critique the church without hope for change. Peterson, if you’ve read any of his stuff, is one of the most articulate and compassionate critics of the church, both then and now.
You can find Peterson’s quote and “the rest of the story” in a six page article found here:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2005/march/26.42.html
Peterson went on to discuss how the church manipulates and bullies people.
My point in using Peterson’s remarks is this: Many on this blog badmouth the church for being an institution and walk away from it; among many reasons, because it is an institution.
Peterson asked the rhetorical question, “What other church is there besides institutional?” And the obvious answer is, there is no other. To quote him: “But there’s no other place to be a Christian except the church.”
Yes, there are many problems and some bad things happening in the church–but to walk away because there is sin within, ugly people, power brokers, etc. is a cop-out. Like Peterson asks, “what other church is there besides institutional.”
fishon
fishon, I agree that all bodies of people being ‘church’ to one another will to some degree represent an institution – we can’t get away from the fact that we will always ‘institutionalise’ our views to some extent to find a group identity.
However, from my own experience the difference we need in any form of church is simply the whole truth of Grace. By this I mean deep acceptance that every single one of of us are messed up, messy people longing for God – and only through his grace can we hope to be made more whole and more able to show genuine love to one another (more holy in religious-speak)
The “institution” I believe hurt believers often walk away from is a place where the transforming power of only God’s grace has been lost in translation & we end up somewhere more like “when you get your behaviour/thoughts/lifestyle more holy, well then you’re acceptable to us”
There is an inherent you=messy versus us=clean which I believe saddens the very heart of God. He never intended us to lord it over each other in that way, or we’d be able to fix each other. In which case what’s the point of salvation?
ukgirl
I disagree that walking away from the church because there is sin within is a “cop-out” some times it’s self preservation and is in fact a very wise choice for a person to make.
Any time a community gets together and forms a set of lasting customs, then it becomes an institution, whether it is formalized or not.
I used to work in an outward bound school that had many of the “cultic” characteristics above.
Anybody who works for a corporation with a tight culture will recognize many of these factors.
Anybody walking into an institution with a prior negative outlook will find things to criticize about it.
Also its worth remembering that many folks don’t actually like institutions which demand honesty and a degree of willing self-discipline. AA is one such, for example, and most addicts won’t go near them — they might have to change.
i used to know eugene well. He’s an amazing man who would criticize you with a level of erudite grace I doubt I’ll ever be able to match.
fact is being critical of religion on the internet is a fantastic way to boost readership, and doing it in a “ten best” list is internet conformity to the hilt.
I think we need to accept that the church – formed of us and folks like us – is very imperfect and ‘let change begin with me’. we can each love mercy and walk humbly with our God in our little corners of the church, welcome ‘others’, not get involved in power games but in living a simple life. these are small steps but they matter.
This even happened at a Zen temple I attended.
Relationships are tough, they take work, more than just coming and going, eh?
fishon
Did you go through withdrawal while David was gone?
Included in the Bible are stories about churches gone awry. And they are admonished for it. Abuse of its members, for instance, is not tolerated. It happened before and it’s gonna happen again, that’s for sure. Like any family, there is dysfunction because people are involved. Nothing new here.
There is no one answer for everyone, is there? Sometimes we stick with a church and sometimes, we gotta bow out. Who knows whether for a short time or for a long time?
Personally, I have to admit that I haven’t been a very good church member according to what most people seem to want in church members. In my head, I keep hearing: “if you want a friend then be a friend.” I’m still learning how to do that. I want to learn to follow God’s lead, not from the outside just to please others, but from that part of me where God is supposed to reside.
critiques and observations are not necessarily criticisms.
People get hurt, discouraged, lazy, etc., and they leave one church for another. Some, like me, leave church and never, or seldom go back (though i have visited on occasion, by request).
One thing I have found disappointing, in almost every church I have attended regularly, and every church I have visited since I quit, is pastoral authority.
Example: A few years ago, I was attending my girlfriends church regularly, for one reason only – so I could spend some time on Sunday with her. I was then, as now, a former believer (atheist).
She was going to be attending part three of a four part “members class” one night a week, for a few months. I wanted to attend the classes, again, for one reason only – just so I could spend time with her. She asked her pastor if I could attend (I had been going to church with her for almost a year, but for obvious reasons (atheist) I was not a member. Her pastor told her I would have to become a member, and go through the classes in order. She was disappointed, but continued with the classes. I stopped attending with her all together and have not gone back in over two years.
Some consider pastoral authority good and necessary. I have seldom found it appealing. Since I have left the church, the “follow the leader” mentality is alive and well, and that is one of the many things I do not miss.
@ fishon, To attempt to answer Peterson’s rhetorical question–there is the church of your body-soul-spirit. Your body is the temple. You are the priest. (The New Testament is clear that every believer is a priest–no other go-between is needed.) God shows up in your spirit (the Holy of Holies) to cleanse you of sin and cover you with His amazing glory. You then, never actually leaving the “church”, walk around attempting to love people the best you can with all your soul. In doing so, God’s light is bouncing around the world off you and through you. To me, that’s church as God intended it.
It seems, at least to me, that the Bible consistently shows God setting up and then breaking down institutions. He set up the concept of altar worship and then replaced it with a temple. The temple (with its many rules and offerings and festivals) was torn down and replaced with nothing but prophets for a long time. That seems to have been replaced with Christ’s “new way.” The early church was not an institution but a movement. Over time it institutionalized itself…with much bickering and arguing and jostling for position. Scripture says nothing about God meeting with Peter and Paul on a mountaintop and handing them a word-for-word set of guidelines for setting up a church building/program/institution. I daresay that the churches we have today are not any more “sacred” to God than any of these other structures that served a purpose FOR A TIME.
I am speculating here, because none of us (certainly not me) has the mind of God, but perhaps God’s intention in always changing things up is precisely so that people will not confuse the institution with what really matters–one-on-one relationship with Him that overflows to everyone around us.
I can love people without an institution–it just won’t be as noticeable. I can reach out with the gospel to those around me without an institution–they just won’t be formally counted as converts on some institution’s “annual performance review.” I can rejoice and worship God without institution–it just won’t be overheard by as many people. All the “one anothers” of Scripture can be done outside of institution because “another” doesn’t mean “church member.” That is why I believe that church can, and does, exist without institution. But that’s just my take on it…
@bob, I’ll bet that pastor was AFRAID of you and your intelligence and WORRIED that you might ask questions he couldn’t answer.
That is one thing I’ve never understood about most Christians–the FEAR of anything not Christian. If we (I am a Christian.) claim to know the truth and believe that our God is all powerful and all knowing and loves beyond measure, what do we have to be afraid of? What question or association will be beyond God’s power to speak or to restore or protect?
My son defines himself as a former believer/atheist, and it amazes me how many “Christians” are afraid to come close anymore. It’s almost as if they think they will catch the swine flu or something!
It really breaks my heart. Not only is it unloving to keep atheists out of our circles, it says a lot about what we really believe (or don’t). And if we don’t believe that God’s truth can stand up to any scrutiny or questioning or doubting, why should an atheist believe what we say and accept that “truth”? If we claim to know God and don’t have love, we are, at best, deceitful. And at the worst, wicked.
Laura said, on August 27th, 2009 at 4:38 am
I disagree that walking away from the church because there is sin within is a “cop-out” some times it’s self preservation and is in fact a very wise choice for a person to make.
_______Laura, if you mean walking away from {{{a}}} church for self preservation, I agree. To walk away from {{{The}}} Church [institutional], that is another can of worms.
There certainly can be very valid reasons for leaving [a] church. I have done that very thing, myself. But to walk away from the church [institutional] that is very dangerous ground.
fishon
UKgirl,
You are correct in your description for the need of grace within a church. And your statement::::“when you get your behaviour/thoughts/lifestyle more holy, well then you’re acceptable to us” is far too often in play in many Bodies of Christ, sadly.
However, a great many people leave a church using that excuse that they won’t let me be who I am and what I am. The fact is, if someone becomes a Christian, there will be change, and most often visiable change in there thinking and actions. But the grace you speak of that is missing in many churches is this: they expect and insist upon instantaneous changes after repentance——–but for most of us———-it takes time to be renewed in our minds. And it takes grace to give people time, and it takes grace to help them, and help them when they blow it.
fishon
erik said::::Also its worth remembering that many folks don’t actually like institutions which demand honesty and a degree of willing self-discipline. AA is one such, for example, and most addicts won’t go near them — they might have to change.
_________Right on. And Jesus does require change of those who follow him. And sadly, that is what causes many to leave a/the church——-they blame their walking away on others actions and words, when in fact, they want nothing to do with a life change. It is most always about someone did this or that to me, when in fact, they will not take responcibility for themselves———playing the victim is way to easy.
I can hear the screams, “You don’t know what they did to me.” Yes, some awful things have and do go on in churches, but a great many are just playing the victim card.
fishon
TitforTat said, on August 27th, 2009 at 8:04 am
fishon
Did you go through withdrawal while David was gone?
____________Hey TforT, nope, much of that time was spent on my old river, far away from the bot, fishing for Small mouth bass and Chinook Salmon. Not many fish, but had a great time.
fishon
ttm said:::It seems, at least to me, that the Bible consistently shows God setting up and then breaking down institutions.
________But the institution, “The Body of Christ,” The Church; well ttm, read Matthew 16:18.
fishon
fishon,
Matthew 16:18 uses the transliterated word EKKLESIA, which has many definitions:
1. a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly (any citizens NOT just Christians)
2. an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating (do we deliberate in church?)
3. the assembly of the Israelites (wait a minute, Israelites? So, Jesus must also be building synogogues upon the rock.)
4. any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously (by chance, NOT every week at a set time)
5. in a Christian sense, an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting (Okay, this one is likely the one you will select as the “right” definition!)
6. a company of Christians, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order’s sake (and another one you’ll probably like…)
7. those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body (I bet you’ll like this one too.)
8. the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth (I like this one!)
9. the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven (Wow. That makes sense. The gates of Hell cannot prevail against those already received into heaven.)
If you follow the word history of “ekklesia”, you will find that it came from another set of words:
EK, meaning: out of, from, by, or away from
AND
KALEO, meaning:
–to call
a. to call aloud, utter in a loud voice
b. to invite
–to call i.e. to name, by name
a. to give a name to
1. to receive the name of, receive as a name
2. to give some name to one, call his name
b. to be called i.e. to bear a name or title (among men)
c. to salute one by name
The word KALEO, comes from the word KELEUO, which means to command or to order, which comes from the root word KELLO, which means to urge on.
Ultimately, I believe that the church is “the called out ones” ordered or urged on by God to live according to the Spirit. Wherever someone has been called out or ordered by God or named as child of God, there is EKKLESIA.
Ekklesia was named/identified by Jesus, but where did Jesus offer a set of rules to set up that institution? If anything, it seemed Jesus continually pointed away from institution (rules, regulations, expectations) and toward relationship (love, mercy, and grace).
If you feel like reading someone else’s take on the word EKKLESIA you can check out this article:
http://www.ekklesia.ws/ekk_defined.htm
“Ekklesia was named/identified by Jesus, but where did Jesus offer a set of rules to set up that institution? If anything, it seemed Jesus continually pointed away from institution (rules, regulations, expectations) and toward relationship (love, mercy, and grace).” (Ttm)
I like the definition of ekklesia – but I would question this idea…did Jesus really point away from institution – which in his day would be Torah leaning (synagogue or the temple)? I don’t think so – his message isn’t littered with such ideas.
Societyvs,
I’m thinking about what you’ve written. Let me clarify how I arrived at the comment you quoted. Jesus broke many of the Jewish rules. He associated with people Jews weren’t supposed to associate with (tax collectors, prostitutes, sinners). He allowed his disciples to collect grain (doing work) on the Sabbath. He himself healed (did work) on the Sabbath. He stopped a stoning (which would have been in accordance to the Jewish law) from happening.
Later, Peter had a vision from God that encouraged him to eat food considered unclean according to Jewish law. And Paul taught (so we assume that God told him this) that circumcision was not necessary anymore in order to be one of God’s chosen. Paul also taught that while one man may consider certain days holy (again, in my opinion, referring back to the mandatory Jewish festivals), another man may not.
So, everything that God set up as the “right way” or the “law” or the “institution” was being disassembled by Jesus and his followers. Also, the early church was not established with a list of regulations or bylaws–house groups sprung up, which were comprised of believers in a given city. Meetings were “sharing times” where each person was allowed to stand and speak. There were no assigned pastors. Things were messy and didn’t fall into an organizational pattern for quite some time. And I have wondered, if Jesus would have remained alive and not been crucified until later, would he have encouraged or discouraged this organization…I mean, Jesus wasn’t a guy who settled into one town with one group and built a place for everyone to hang out. He moved around.
It is my belief that Jesus attended synagogue and temple growing up to honor his parents and to learn as any good Jewish boy would. As an adult, he went to these places to change the thinking of the people in them, not to fit in with the established institution. He didn’t have much to say about instituions or organizations other than to get angry with the superiority running rampant because of institutional divisions such as the Pharisees vs. Saducees and the priests vs. people, but he had much to say about moving across divisions and loving your fellow man. That’s where I was coming from with my comment.
But, please, share with me where Jesus made comments that supported institution or gave his apostles guidance in setting one up. If he did those things, I want to know that and be able to read his words in the context of the passages in which they are written. Because I very well could be wrong in what I currently believe…I want to learn.
Coming from the standpoint of someone who has gone from a non-religious, to fundamentalist Christian, and ultimately to an Atheist world view, every one of these points holds an especially “nostalgic” significance to me, if you will (not one of pleasure, I assure you). I remember the long and stressful struggle to free myself from the dogma that perpetuates these harmful thought processes. My first inclination after reading this was to copy it into word and increase it’s length five-fold, if not more; a testimony to enlightenment, so to speak. Thanks for this.
ttm
I really like the exposition of ekklesia and really believe God is there well outside the walls of traditional ‘church’ as we know it. Was at Greenbelt festival last night listening to a live set by Athlete and there was love, Spirit, community and worship right there in a field! Heavenly
For any people who have found Love lacking in experience of church, I would recommend next UK August Bank Holiday weekend at Greenbelt. David you should make the trip over some time & come sell your artwork/t-shirts (maybe even get a speaker slot
)
http://www.greenbelt.org.uk/blog/2009/08/whats-so-amazing-about-greenbelt/
ukgirl, I’m glad that the “ekklesia” word study was helpful to you. I also feel some comfort in knowing that I am not alone in experiencing the presence of God in ways and places that fall far outside/beyond the walls of a bricks and mortar church. I hope you continue to find God in delightful and unexpected places on your journey!
Hey UKgirl, I was at Greenbelt too. It was fantastic – felt like coming home. Thousands of progressive Christians all on my wavelength! (I won’t say ‘post-Evangelical’ because a lot of them, like me, never were Evangelicals. Though I am evangelical.)
Do I know you from other blogs? Ok, you don’t have to answer that if you’d rather remain anonymous! At Greenbelt I found a lot of people I know knew other people I know and I had no idea – bit alarming really.
Tiggy.
Hey Naked Pastor, (cool name btw) I would like to say that those 10 are right on the money – thank you for being open to listen to people and write down what they said.
I dont go to church now – I found that the church was so far from what it preached and I should know cos I was in church leadership and I got to see and hear what went on behind closed doors. Spiritual abuse – nothing more nothing less (no.3). I should know cos I actually did it myself as a leader – I honestly swallowed it all and did what they told me to do.
I had a problem about people going down under the power – its just a technique for getting people of balance done with religious fervour. I was never convinced I really spoke in tongues cos I did the same kind of thing as an actor pretending to be someone from another country.
Basically there were all sorts of holes in my faith and the worst was hearing about what happened to people and the attitudes I had to entertain to be a leader and make people feel guilty that they werent attending or putting enough commitment. I hated myself for doing it. It was awful being holier than thou – those people didnt deserve the abuse they were getting no matter how slight it was – it wasnt right. I have moved on and I have forgiven myself and sought to be a better person that always gives the person a choice if they are seeking advice or opinion – I rarely ram it down someones throat these days. I have come to see that we are all people – there is no difference. As Christians will know; “But for the grace of God there go I”
We are all the same. Its been proven there is no such thing as race – we all have the same DNA. All religions have shown the benefits of prayer/meditation – its just a different brand of theology. I have learnt more and grown more outside of the institutionalised church as I opened up myself to learn from people – all kinds of people. I know myself much better and as such I am a better asset to those around me. I know the world around me better too and thats another good thing and I have learnt a heckuva lot about spirituality too.
One thing that sticks out to me like a sore thumb is the fact that religious people (Christians included) often think they are better than those around them and the worst thing is they dont even realise they think this way. They think they have all the answers and it comes across as very high minded. I could see this in myself. As long as the church or Christians or any other religion and its followers think that they are superior then they have lost it – they’ve lost the plot!
Trust me when I say that I have seen many churches – some for very long periods and others for a short time. Yes Christian groups will form and the bigger they get the more institutionalised they get and the further off track they get – its inevitable – Christian or otherwise. Keep the groups small – regardless of what they are about and there is far more chance of humanity shining through with its best qualities. When groups are small we have better opportunities for relationships. Better opportunities for change. Better opportunities for growth. I had lots to learn when I left the church and I learnt it in the most surprising places. I’m far from perfect and I’ve lots to learn and I know some of the things I need to learn and I am having a go at it in my own time and my own pace. Whats important is that I am finding my own spiritual direction and spiritual food. Its out there – seek and ye shall find.
Its about connecting with people, valuing people, honouring people, seeking the best in people. Jesus said love your enemies… thats the ultimate – boy is it a hard one. People are all we have – we must live with them. Today’s society has lost its value of people. If you think about it none of us wish to be lonely – lets make the most of the life we have now and make this world a better place right now, right here.
Ok I might stop my rant now, end of sermon lol. Seriously its just my experience and thats all I can convey I dont mean that I have a truth that should be applied across the board – in my experience truth doesnt work like that. We all have to find our own truth for wherever we are at and its different for each of us. Paradoxically its the same truth but it’s different for everyone – but thats another issue. Thanks for reading, I hope it is of value to you.
Were you a Hairy Hierophant? I’ve often wondered about that falling down stuff. I think it’s just that when someone touches you in a healing way on the shoulders you relax a lot and it can happen suddenly and if you’ve also got your eyes closed you can lose your balance. Its more difficult for me because I have large wedges on usually and I worry that I’ll break my ankle or something. So how do they make people fall over in the churches you’ve been to? I don’t think they make people at mine – I think it just happens, but I have been to services at other places where you can see the person is pretty much pushing the person down.
The tongues thing – I can do a brilliant imitation of someone speaking or singing in tongues. At a drama group once, we had to speak in a made up language and no one would believe that mine was made up. Sometimes when I’m writing songs I sing a bit in a made up language just to get the tune or if I want to do a bit in Spanish, but don’t know the Spanish words yet – it’s a strange inclination I get sometimes! There’s a group from Iceland, ‘Sigur Ros’ who do this all the time on their tracks – none of their lyrics are real words.
When I hear other people speaking in tongues, sometimes it sounds like a language, but other times they just use the same words each time and most of them begin with ‘S’. A lot of the seem to say ‘Shaaba’ which is funny because I’ve only heard that word in Rap or R ‘n B songs – no idea what it means. They don’t seem to take it too seriously at my church though, people often laugh when the leader says ‘Shaaba’ and so does he, and I don’t feel there’s any abuse there. Of course there are always individuals who might say stupid or insensitive things.
Wow, English people seem to be taking over this blog – or do Canadians spell honouring with a ‘u’ as well?
thanks for contributing to the discussion hairyant. your journey sounds strangely familiar.
Hey Tiggy,
I am not a hierophant or at least I dont profess to be hehe.
In regards to ‘going down under the power’ or or ’slain in the spirit’ as it used to be called I have been a student of martial arts for many years and in compatibility with my own soul/spirit I have studied the softer ones like Aikido and Tai Chi. I am not a kick ass street fighter by any stretch of the imagination violence is just not my forte. I saw immediately the same techniques used in the martial arts I have studied. The only difference is that its done very slowly in church and it seems imperceptible and the people being prayed for have been placed to that point where they are almost off balance. Then the slightest touch is applied and it seems as if the person has been moved as if by an unseen force.
Now granted some people are spiritual thrill seekers – just like I was. We all knew there was some one to catch us – some places even had gym mats to fall on. I remember one pastor saying that the catchers ought to be removed and the mats and then we might see real miracles. I agree – if God is who he says he is according to what preachers and the bible say he is then lets see something for real so no one can dispute it.
I know the ‘believe and see’ vs the ’see and believe’ fields of thought/theology, they are both in the gospels so its neither one or the other as far as I can see. So if God can do these miracles lets see real, honest to goodness indisputable miracles. This doesnt seem to happen with any credence. I mean, if I said I’d said I’d seen the Loch Ness Monster you’d want proof if you were gonna believe me right? And fair enough too – I dont see any problem with that and neither did Jesus according to the gospels.
Things like arms growing a centimeter – y’know when they stretch out the arms and one arm is longer than the other and they pray what do you know? The arms meet perfectly in length! Please!! Lets see something that really is a miracle. Thing is what does all this prove? Does it prove that God is real? Can miracles happen without God? On the other hand its getting very difficult to prove stuff these days and there are many who have faked pictures of UFO’s and the Loch Ness Monster – its little wonder that people see God on a similar level and want indisputable proof if they are to trust God.
Its an age where miracles are needed to be highly specific – it almost seems like the miracles we read in the gospels (and the rest of the bible) were all well and good for that time but now we are in need of so much more. We have so much in the way of technology that would seem like magic to the people of the gospels time.
I think that the real miracle would be humans actually getting on with each other, seeing past our religious differences and actually living with each other and working together to solve the problems we have. We have this life for a reason and if we cant be friends then it may be possible that we might not be friends for very much longer. This is about all of us letting go of our dearly beloved doctrine and finding one another. We value our theology more than we value people. And heaven knows I am speaking to myself here as one who was highly indoctrinated at bible college level. Letting go is hard but is it worth maintaining the great divide we have? I know there are plenty of people in other religions who have to learn this same thing as well as Christians.
Why cant we see that we are all one and the same? Why cant we see that we are all connected, that we are one? I do know why – I have been thru my own journey in that regard.
Speaking in tongues is something that I have heard lots of variations of and its often repetitive which may or may not be true of languages that we have on this planet. I see it as a part of a form of control/abuse. Its like herding and guiding people to an ecstatic spiritual experience – a spiritual high if you will. But notice that after the experience people arent grounded they are still high and this creates addicts – spiritual addicts. When you get high you need to come back down to earth you cant spend all your time there. We do have to come back to the everyday experience lest we have car accidents or fall into depression like drug addicts do. So the lack of grounding afterwards is a hook to make sure people come back, keeping them in a cycle of dependency. Thats akin to pushers and druggies imho. Of course pastors and ministers want us back next Sunday – it is their job, their livelihood after all.
As for my spelling – its been an honour (giggle) – Queens English rules ;-D – just joking hehe.
nakedpastor thanks for your comment – may I ask if my journey sounds strangely familiar to your own or to that of the people you listened to? Just curious.
hairyant: both.
nakedpastor thanks for your reply – I thought as much. I think I would be correct in that you are currently an active churchgoer judging by your site and nickname. If you have had a similar journey to mine can I assume you left the church at some point and if so for what reasons and how did you make the decision to attend church again?
The book of Daniel talks about the little book being opened in the last days. Check out the site http://www.WeCanKnow.com and find…from the BIBLE- alone and in it’s entirety…what has happened and will soon come to past.
And if everyone felt like you all feel, and everyone left the church…then what?
how about they rip out that page in the hymnal for the one named “just as i am”?
Nancy: Then we would find each other…in the laundry mat, the grocery store, and all the other places I meet the church. I didn’t get saved until late in life. I came from a horrible, dishonorable, backround. I was a drunkard, drug addict, morally loose, and homeless. The Lord has cleaned up all those things, however, there are still consequences to all that behaviour. I still don’t have a nice car, or husband, or children, and most of the time I am unemployed. The Lord literally is raising me for the first time in my life. I am probably at about the equivalent of a 19 y.o. right now; however, I am 48. Nonetheless, I love Jesus with all my heart, mind, soul, and strength. But the whole time I have been a Christian I have not been accepted into one church. Noone has even bothered to find out what my story is. They see the externals and just assume I am not a believer, or worse-cursed. It has taken a lot of time to heal from this treatment. I know however that Jesus has used it to keep me humble, and to crucify my flesh. I love to worship the Lord, I love His word, and I wish I could find somewhere to fellowship. I have given up as of now. Maybe you can pray for me?
Melinda there are lots of people at my church with backgrounds similar to yours and they are accepted as part of the community. Some of my friends have been alcoholics and drug-addicts and we tend to see it as an illness. I live in the UK, but I would have thought there must be somewhere where you can go where the church would accept you. Frankly, if they’re the sort of people who dont’ want to accept you then it’s probably not the place for you to go, though I would guess you have a lot to teach them. Why don’t you send the email you posted on here out to some churches? I don’t know much about churches in the USA, but maybe someone on here who does could respond.
Tiggy.