- People don’t change their minds. Only rarely. Transformation is not a desirable option to our brains. It seems to require trauma, the threat of imminent death, to provoke real change of mind and bring about true transformation. Is it possible to enter death and be transformed while we are alive?
- The greatest enemy of community is fantasy… visionary and wishful thinking. The lack of gratitude for what is, the unwillingness to appreciate what is, or the disdain for what is, erodes the fabric of community. Can we love unconditionally without coercion?
- Our gross naiveté about the principalities and powers and their persistent desire and ability to enslave groups and individuals perpetuates the abuses institutions, including the church, are notorious for. Can all people be free?
- Avoid naysayers as well as yes-men. You can always find complainers to agree with you. You can always find encouragers to agree with you. Can we find the courage to form our own minds independently, wisely, and compassionately?
- Listen to what the atheists are saying about the unprovability of God; discern the Christ-Principle in all things; have compassion for all beings. Is it possible to see all things as being reconciled?
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It seems to require trauma, the threat of imminent death, to provoke real change of mind and bring about true transformation.
———-No threat of death for me in my change of mind for atheist to Christian.
The greatest enemy of community is fantasy… visionary and wishful thinking. The lack of gratitude for what is, the unwillingness to appreciate what is, or the disdain for what is, erodes the fabric of community. Can we love unconditionally without coercion?
——–I think the greatest enemy is the lack of Godly love. And visionary: “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing…and teaching….” That my friend is quite visionary.
No, I don’t believe mankind can love unconditionally.
Can all people be free?
——What do you mean by “free?” That must be definded because freedom means different things to different people and people groups.
Can we find the courage to form our own minds independently, wisely, and compassionately?
———I believe we can.
Is it possible to see all things as being reconciled?
——-Not in this lifetime.
And frankly, I have NO compassion for….
Good questions.
fishon
Hey stop knocking the fantasists. Some of us by personality are future-thinkers. God made us for a reason.
Tiggy ENFP
Yup, it pretty much takes a stick of dynamite to get me moving; not easy to get me to change. I guess I relate a lot to Jonah in that regard.
BTW, just had a peek at your Misty River; love it!
Thought provoking list!
I don’t think suffering is required for transformation, but I do think think most of us have to undergo something ultra traumatic to get us to move. If we don’t experience the shift as a sort of death, it’s very likely we are only making a horizontal shift rather than an actual transformation. Most of us have to descend into Hell before resurrection can occur.
I wonder about the fantasy part, however. I agree that coerceive visionary and wishful thinking is just plain old egoic desire and therefore a way to avoid reality. But fantasy of the imaginative sort is something altogether different, and might possibly be the best thing community has going for it.
Maybe avoidance (even of nay-sayers and yes-sayers) is always a means to escape reality? But I suppose we all have to go into the desert from time to time to discover what it is we think for ourselves.
Listen to what the atheists are saying about the unprovability of God
Why?
1. I used to be very pharisiacal (and legalistic, I guess) when it came to church issues. I could be very judgmental toward people, their attitudes, and beliefs more liberal than my own. Unfortunately, it took being persecuted in my own church for me to begin to open my eyes to my own judgmentalism (which caused me to begin to despise conservatives (legalists) such as the Southern Judgmental Baptists.) Grace was a word I heard but rarely saw practiced. I now have a much better understanding of grace, especially toward those who are very different than me. I do my very best to let grace be my guide.
I understand how difficult it is to love unconditionally. I think unconditional love exists in the church, but I have rarely seen it there. I think unconditional love is found far more often outside the church than in it, but I do believe man is capable of showing unconditional love. I have seen churches shoot their wounded far more than I have seen them help their wounded.
My reply is probably very shallow, as most of you are deep thinkers and probably seminary-trained theologists.
LOL Well I’m not! I mean I’m not a seminary-trained theologist. I CAN be a deep thinker, when I’m not busy enjoying the profundity of the superficial.
That’s very interesting that it was through being persecuted yourself that you changed. I’m curious to know the processes people go through in altering their religious views and attitudes. I’ve always been something of a heretic and independent thinker, so it doesn’t really apply to me. Hell, I got chucked out of Sunday School!
Acceptance of diversity is often as a result of the experience of adversity. That’s what brings the diverse together. That’s the reason I go to a church for gay people that positively encourages diversity, because I’ve had bad experiences in churches including quite severe bullying. I don’t go there because I need to go to a gay church, but because I feel at one with them in their adversity. I think that was something Jesus felt too when he hung out with the marginalised.
myheartsinlynchburg July 24, 2009 at 9:58 pm
I now have a much better understanding of grace, especially toward those who are very different than me. I do my very best to let grace be my guide.—————Interesting statement of grace: (which caused me to begin to despise conservatives (legalists) such as the Southern Judgmental Baptists.)
fishon
Ok, now I’m back to struggling with the whole idea of “vision” being bad again.
Fishon, you are right on the money about me. Grace is my guide, except when it comes to legalists. It’s been almost 6 years since I experienced church people (a very small group) at their worst – and I still haven’t been able to get beyond the treatment my wife and I received. I’ve tried to forgive, but have been unable to forget. You may be right about the impossiblity of loving unconditionally as it is difficult for me to love those who hurt me and my family. I believe it was in the gospel of Mark where He spoke of the “sick needing a physician” and that He did not come to call the righteous but sinners. (I know I would lose a scripture quoting contest.) Therefore, I have a more loving attitude toward those who have different belief systems than me. Anyway, thank you for calling me out on my statement. While you are a conservative voice on this blog (and when I say conservative, I’m not calling you a legalist, because I don’t know you), I appreciate your willingness to contribute to the dialog. My former pastor would call this a tool of the devil and go hide behind the walls of his glass house.
by the way, it was a small group in a large church, not a small church.
Just a quick thought:
Can we love unconditionally without coercion?
Surely if we are coerced or we coerce then the coercion becomes a condition? That is, whatver we were coerced with towards love becomes a condition of the resulting love? Watever we coerce with becomes a condition of the love? (Just covering two possible readings of the question) Therefore we cannt love unconditionally WITH coercion.
Maybe fishion is right and we can’t love unconditionally.
myheartsinlynchburg July 25, 2009 at 7:39 am
Fishon, you are right on the money about me. Grace is my guide, except when it comes to legalists.
——myheart, be careful about having grace except for….
It is kind of like those who claim and preach tolerance—but not
when the person is one of those fundamentalist Christians who
believe…is a sin. I don’t have it down pat, myself. Just
encouraging you to be careful.
It’s been almost 6 years since I experienced church people (a very small group such as the Southern Judgmental Baptists.) ) at their worst – and I still haven’t been able to get beyond the treatment my wife and I received. I’ve tried to forgive, but have been unable to forget.
——-myheart, believe me, I understand. I have been through it myself. What has worked for me is, I have made the conscience decision to not let those who have done me wrong dominate how I feel and think. I take seriously what I have at the top of our church bulletin::”There is one thing you can never take from me, and that is my freedom to CHOOSE [my caps] how I will react to whatever you do to me *Victor Frankl* If you don’t know his story, google his name.
You may be right about the impossiblity of loving unconditionally as it is difficult for me to love those who hurt me and my family.
——–myheart, if you came upon anyone of those folks that has hurt you, and you saw that they were in, say, a car wreck and needed your help, would you stop and help them? I am guessing you would. That is love my friend. God didn’t say that you had to like them.
I believe it was in the gospel of Mark where He spoke of the “sick needing a physician” and that He did not come to call the righteous but sinners. (I know I would lose a scripture quoting contest.) Therefore, I have a more loving attitude toward those who have different belief systems than me.
——Oh, me too.
Anyway, thank you for calling me out on my statement. While you are a conservative voice on this blog (and when I say conservative, I’m not calling you a legalist, because I don’t know you),
—–I did not take you to be calling me a legalist. Heck, to some folks way of thinking, I am to much of a liberal. To others, I am a flaming bigot. Just can’t please everyone—-and when you try you end up pleasing no one, especially your self.
I appreciate your willingness to contribute to the dialog.
——My pleasure talking with you.
jerry [fishon]
JohnFOM who or what are you saying is coercing people to love unconditionally? Could you make what you said a bit clearer please?
It also strikes me that the threat of Hell is a pretty good form of coercion.
Tiggy -
My thought on #5 – listen to what the atheists are saying about the unprovability of God:
Use the Buddhist finger pointing at the moon analogy. If we concentrate only on the finger, we never actually look to where it is pointing, so we only see the finger, not the moon. Right?
The question – does God exist? like the finger pointing at the moon. It isn’t the moon. So it doesn’t really matter how you answer the question. Either answer is focused on the finger, not the moon. To say yes, God exists, can only point back to the question itself. The same is true if we say God doesn’t exist. All arguments for either point back to the question – not to God.
God transcends reason. So if we insist that God exists – then that insistence has God stuck at the level of human reason – we box him in according to our ideas about him. It is absolutely true that we cannot prove the existence of God. Proof demands reason and experience of God transcends reason.
Thanks, Fishon. I appreciate each response/comment. And I appreciate you. Wes
Well then we just get down to defining what we mean by ‘exists’ and if we don’t then it just becomes semantics.
So again, why listen to the atheists who are engaged in this pointless game of reasoning?
It’s so old hat. God to me is more art than science.
Sorry tiggy.
I was rejigging the question a bit I suppose.
The question was ‘Can we love unconditionally without coercion?’. I didn’t make it explicit but I was trying to say if unconditional love exists it must be without coersion as anything used to coerce towards love becomes a condition of that love (and therefore that love cannot be considered unconditional).
To use your example, if we love because of the threat of hell, then our love is conditional on that threat, therefore it’s not an unconditional love.
Yeah, I wasn’t sure why you were doing that?
But I’m going to bed now as it’s 2.19 in my part of the planet.
Tiggy:
Read the question again:
Listen to what the atheists are saying about the UNPROVABILITY of God; discern the Christ-Principle in all things; have compassion for all beings. Is it possible to see all things as being reconciled?
Is it possible to see all things as being reconciled?
For instance, can you see where atheism and theism might already be reconciled? Or do you think reconciliation only exists somewhere off in the future when atheists will finally come to admit the existence of God? If we discern the Christ principle in all things, then is it necessary for atheists to come over to the side of theists? Or could it be there is already a center of reconciliation that exists if we simply look beyond the finger to the moon?
Well I’ll say ‘Listen to Philip Pullman’, but having read a review of the ‘Atheists Conference’ I wasn’t very inspired by Dawkins et al.
Perfect example: Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, are all calling for an end of faith. They see no means of reconciliation except that the religious give up religion and become atheists. Does reconciliation require that they inspire you to give up your faith so that you convert to their side? Or that you inspire them to come over to your side? Or does reconciliation point to something altogether different. When you use the term “inspire” in that way, don’t you really mean “coerce”?
What a pile of idiots. Like we are going to give up are faith. Who can possibly take them seriously?
fishon
Vasilia…the aforementioned authors may be calling for an end to religious faith as they have come to know it(often in it’s ugliest portrayals), but I’m sure they’re not calling for an end to ethics or the best that we can do with respect to how we treat each other.
If you will, the “Z theory” is applicable as a means of understanding the commonalities(the bottom line) between factions that are diametrically opposed on the slope.In that sense , a partial reconciliation is attainable. Is that what you meant by reconciliation?
I’m no more keen on Fundamentalist Atheists than I am on Fundamentalist Christians.
Tiggy…do you know any liberal atheists?
Most of them I should think – they don’t go to atheist conferences and turn it into a religion. They just ‘don’t really believe in God’.
Faithlessinfatima –
I’m not all that familiar with the Z-Theory, but I think the answer is “yes”…
What we consider to be inspiration is very often coercion. “Prove it to me and perhaps I’ll change my mind” is not about inspiration. That’s about coercion. Reading Sam Harris’ End of Faith actually had a profound effect on me – he got me thinking about things I hadn’t previously considered. But it seems to me what thinkers like Harris, Dawkins, etc. don’t realize is that they are likewise calling for faith in a belief that reason will ultimately provide us with ultimate truth. It is belief in this sort of abstraction that exists somewhere out in the future, through religion or reason, that has the two sides calling for an end to one another. Both think that their views are correct in the provable sense. Ultimately, they will be proven true.
David said to listen to the atheists who claim God is unprovable (or something like that). To say God is unprovable is completely different than saying God doesn’t exist. “God doesn’t exist” or “God exists” is a fact that can ultimately be proven or disproven.
But dig deeply enough and a provable God is not what most world religions are referring to when they refer to God. That idea of God is a very recent phenomenon.
I should say: Both sides believe that ultimately, one side (theirs) will be proven right and the other side will be proven wrong.
a provable God is not what most world religions are referring to when they refer to God. That idea of God is a very recent phenomenon.
Exactly. It’s not about proving or substantiating facts. Not sure that the Dawkins school of atheism understands that though – in fact I’m fairly sure they don’t. I never believed in God because I thought it highly likely He existed, but because I had an inner knowing – I felt him inside. And I’m not talking about a conversion experience – this was going as far back as I remember.
Tiggy – me too. It’s something I’ve just always trusted (to varying degrees). There have been plenty of theists and atheists who’d like to define and label my experience for me, however.