Check out my t-shirts HERE. I’m growing my inventory all the time. And check out my contemplative art here.
Contributions to nakedpastor are greatly appreciated.
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David Hayward is a pastor artistically stripping to the essential.
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Check out my t-shirts HERE. I’m growing my inventory all the time. And check out my contemplative art here.
Contributions to nakedpastor are greatly appreciated. David Hayward is a pastor artistically stripping to the essential.
Tiggy July 25, 2009 at 2:03 pm
. Most people would not order the killing of whole populations, including women and babies for instance as the God of the Old Testament did – allegedly.
——-True. However, He is God and I ain’t. His ways I do not understand. But if I want to make a lego god, I will just ignore the parts I don’t understand or like, then I can be fully content with my god. I will have faith in my God, warts and all [as some people see Him], and go about my business. All the unanswered questions, well I trust God knows what he is doing.
fishon
It’s not a question of accepting God as He is or not, it’s a question of whether those descriptions are of what we understand to be God. The understanding of God’s character has clearly changed and evolved over the centuries. It would be a bit odd if it hadn’t.
Well WWII and the Holocaust are going back a bit. I’m talking present day and the increasing identification with an international community through business and the Internet, rather than tribalism or nationalism. This is a growing trend.
——–tiggy, I wrote up a list of tribal and national conflicts going on at this very moment. Some how I deleted them, so I am not goint to write them again. But needless to say—-your idea of a brave new international community is not close to reality. Just one example: Bosnia—Take the troops out and guess what??
fishon
You really think nationalism has the importance it once had?
Tiggy July 25, 2009 at 5:35 pm
You really think nationalism has the importance it once had?
————Oh yes. Just let Japan attack Pearl Harbor again and watch what would happen. Or maybe Japan attacking China. Columbia invade Venezalua would be ugly. Iran and Isarel seem to be pretty national.
———–I am not saying things haven’t changed, they have. Yes, more commerce is diversified, but that does not necessarily equate to doing away with or minimizing nationalism.
fishon
Why would Japan attack Pearl Harbour or China? Most of the increasingly young population of Iran want a more Western lifestyle and aren’t particularly nationalistic. I’m not saying people don’t want better things for their country, but it’s nothing like the kind of nationalism you got pre WW2
On to another debate, twiggy.
fishon
Could people please stop calling me ‘Twiggy’. It’s not like I’m thin.
I have had good news this evening and I’m going to bed to bask in it.
Tim Michael,
Let me see if I’ve got this right…
1. You don’t believe that any argument presented to an atheist will persuade an atheist to believe in God, yet you continue to argue with atheists to save them (you hope) from eternal death.
2. You believe that atheists ought to be able to explain where matter came from (other than with “unprovable” theories such as the Big Bang theory or the theory of “it always was”), yet you expect atheists to embrace your “unprovable” theories that God exists and that He created matter because your beliefs are rational and obvious.
3. If your point was that people concerned with matter should be able to give a detailed account of the origins of matter, to be fair, couldn’t an atheist say to you that people concerned with God should be able to give a detailed account of the origins of God? And if your argument would be “God has no origin,” doesn’t that sound about as plausible to an atheist as “Matter always was” sounds to a Christian?
4. You believe that atheists are incapable of demonstrating love– or at least are incapable of demonstrating a “constraining” (I’m not sure what that means exactly–maybe sacrificial would be a synonym?) love? Really? So, atheists just by virtue of what they believe cannot be loving?
5. If an atheist claims to be able to love, you would only accept it as love if he could define love and its origins to your satisfaction?
6. You believe that all atheists are ignoring creation’s endorsement of God and therefore live in a constant state of tension?
And you “love on” these people you define as stubborn (1), inflexible (1), ignorant (2. and 3.), loveless (4.), foolish (5.), and stressed out (5.) people on a daily basis. And knowing that you feel this way about them, they call you friend in return?
Wow. That’s amazing! I’m not being sarcastic. The fact that you can make such statements about people and have them still want to be in close (daily) relationship with you says a lot about their capacity to love. Maybe all the atheists out there ought to don their “I love Christians.” T-shirts.
My son might wear one…if it said, “They make me laugh.” on the back. ;^)
Thanks for the dialogue.
How can anyone have a good relationship with someone they think is in immanent danger of going to Hell and Damnation? Surely it would affect your whole relationship. You would be panicking on their behalf in the same way you would if you saw them teetering on the edge of an abyss. You would be beseeching with them and in a terrible state of distress for their future. You couldn’t just have a normal relationship. Maybe Christians don’t take Hell seriously enough or else they have highly compartmentalised minds.
Tiggy July 26, 2009 at 4:56 pm
How can anyone have a good relationship with someone they think is in immanent danger of going to Hell and Damnation? Surely it would affect your whole relationship.
————-I don’t think anyone said it would not affect a relationship. And tiggy, we all compartmentalize.
fishon
That’s true – I’m sure I compartmentalise about people dying in third world countries, but that’s a bit different to having your friend before you and feeling them to be in immanent danger.
tiggy,
We all handle things differently. I have a son that will not accept the Lord, and my mother never did. We all learn to cope.
fishon
Tiggy – “How can anyone have a good relationship with someone they think is in immanent danger of going to Hell and Damnation? Surely it would affect your whole relationship. You would be panicking on their behalf in the same way you would if you saw them teetering on the edge of an abyss. You would be beseeching with them and in a terrible state of distress for their future. You couldn’t just have a normal relationship. Maybe Christians don’t take Hell seriously enough or else they have highly compartmentalised minds.”
Tiggy, I say this, not as an insult, but as an observation from experience inside and outside of Christianity.
The only explanation I can offer as to why the vast majority of believers can just ignore the idea of “hell”, other than when the minister preaches on it Sunday morning, is that they really don’t believe it exists. I think most believers would probably go out of their way to warn people of impending physical harm. Even to the extent of trying to physically move someone if a train, bus, plane, car, elephant, etc, were heading their way. But when it comes to hell, most well never utter a single word. I do not blame them. I am not being critical. I am just concluding, based on my 25 years as a believer, and the past 9 years as a non believer, that believers really do not believe hell is a real place. They may claim that they do, in casual conversation. Perhaps even in a discussion with a relative or close friend. But the vast majority will not loose any sleep over the idea of a friend or loved one who does not believe.
So what to conclude: Do they just not care? Perhaps. But I think what it comes down to is that they really don’t believe what they believe they are supposed to believe.
Just my observations.
I think it was George Bernard Shaw who suggested that was due to a lack of imagination – not sure if that’s the reason though.
Bob,
Interesting take.
However, the rant and ravings of folks that take on many fundementalist is that they teach, preach, and talk about hell to much.
Well, Bob, based on my 33 years as an atheist and and 29 years as a Christian, I hear lots of Christians talk of hell to others. By the way, we can’t shove-um out of the way of hell like we can with a bearing down, speeding car or train.
YOU: But the vast majority will not loose any sleep over the idea of a friend or loved one who does not believe.
Bob, my son is a non-believer and if he was to die today he would go to hell. I do NOT lose sleep over it. So, Bob, what is wrong with me?
fishon
You tell us, Fishon, what IS wrong with you?
I don’t know what it’s like in Canada, but in England Hell isn’t preached much – certainly not in Anglican churches or even in the charismatic independent one I go to now. Maybe that’s just an English thing, but even those who talk about Hell don’t seem to worry too much about the majority of humankind going there.
tiggy,
I am from Oregon, USA, not Canada.
Tiggy, I submit, if your basic knowledge of Christianity is basically local, England, then there is much for you to learn about the rest of the World’s Christianity. Wow! I don’t mean that to sound so arrogant. My quad mate in Bible College was a 32 year old Christian from Congo. He was also a College prof. of Chemistry. He taught me that my little world of Christianity was wayyyyyyyy isolated. He is the most spiritual man I have ever met.
No, I won’t tell you what is wrong with me. I am waiting for Bob to tell me what is wrong with me. He seems to assume that if I don’t lose sleep because my son is on his way to hell, something is wrong with me. He made the assumption–he can answer.
fishon
Speaking like a fundamentalist, is hell real because it’s biblical, therefore of divine origin …..or with respect to the historical roots of all cultural artifacts , can it’s appearance be traced to particular time and place (like apocalyptism) and therefore human? This is not to say that human ideas can’t be a map to other realities beyond our experience.
A better question wd be ….Did hell deserve it’s fall…was it a good idea or bad?
I do have some knowledge of Christianity in the US and Latin America, as well as in a few other places – just not Canada where I was assuming most of the people on this blog are from. (I knew you weren’t Fishon) I’m also aware of how diverse it is even within countries.
Fishon, I was just assuming you’d say that you trust in God and His righteousness regarding Hell. But of course I may be totally wrong.
HELL IN JUDAISM
Judaism does not have a specific doctrine about the afterlife, but it does have a mystical/Orthodox tradition of describing Gehenna. Gehenna is not Hell, but rather a sort of Purgatory where one is judged based on his or her life’s deeds, or rather, where one becomes fully aware of one’s own shortcomings and negative actions during one’s life. The Kabbalah describes it as a “waiting room” (commonly translated as an “entry way”) for all souls (not just the wicked). The overwhelming majority of rabbinic thought maintains that people are not in Gehenna forever; the longest that one can be there is said to be 11 months, however there has been the occasional noted exception. Some consider it a spiritual forge where the soul is purified for its eventual ascent to Olam Habah (heb. ???? ???; lit. “The world to come”, often viewed as analogous to Heaven). This is also mentioned in the Kabbalah, where the soul is described as breaking, like the flame of a candle lighting another: the part of the soul that ascends being pure and the “unfinished” piece being reborn.
According to Jewish teachings, hell is not entirely physical; rather, it can be compared to a very intense feeling of shame. People are ashamed of their misdeeds and this constitutes suffering which makes up for the bad deeds. When one has so deviated from the will of God, one is said to be in gehinom. This is not meant to refer to some point in the future, but to the very present moment. The gates of teshuva (return) are said to be always open, and so one can align his will with that of God at any moment. Being out of alignment with God’s will is itself a punishment according to the Torah.
Note: the Torah itself does not actually mention the afterlife – what is called in Judaism, ‘The World To Come’.
fishon -” Bob, Interesting take. However, the rant and ravings of folks that take on many fundementalist is that they teach, preach, and talk about hell to much.”
Some may see it that way, but I do not. I live in the south. I am surrounded by believers. In my little part of the state, in my two-county phone book Yellow Pages, there are about 250 Christian churches. I have lived here since 1991. I have never had anyone, other than a minister on TV or a minister in church, mention hell. I have never had anyone come to me personally, and speak of hell.
I come in contact, professionally, with literally thousands of people who I know for a fact, attend church regularly. Many of my clients are the churches themselves (church schools and childcare centers), and I have never had any of the staff talk to me about hell, God, Jesus, eternity, etc.
I am not quite sure what to conclude…
1 – They are either uncaring, which I don’t think applies to most.
2 – They either assume that I, like most, already believe, which I am sure many assume.
3 – They really don’t believe what they believe they should believe.
I guess it is probably a combination.
“Well, Bob, based on my 33 years as an atheist and and 29 years as a Christian, I hear lots of Christians talk of hell to others.”
Do you hear, with your ears, people talking to other Christians about hell, or people talking to non believers? Because I, as a non believer, never hear any talk of hell unless I tune the TV or radio to a minister who happens to mention it in a sermon, or likewise, if I happen to visit a church when the minister talks of hell.
“By the way, we can’t shove-um out of the way of hell like we can with a bearing down, speeding car or train.”
Obviously.
“Bob, my son is a non-believer and if he was to die today he would go to hell.”
That is what you believe, I guess.
” I do NOT lose sleep over it. So, Bob, what is wrong with me?”
I don’t think there is anything wrong with you. I am guessing you have talked of hell, at some point, with your son. You have probably done all that you feel you can or should do for him.
Bob asked: Do you hear, with your ears, people talking to other Christians about hell, or people talking to non believers?
———-As I give you question some thought, I guess you may be right. Mostly Christians talking to other Chrisitans.
“Bob, my son is a non-believer and if he was to die today he would go to hell.”
That is what you believe, I guess.
——-Yes, Bob, that is what I believe because of what the Bible teaches. If it was up to me I would make my own lego god [like carlton Peason who the thought of his grandparents drove him from the God of the Bible]. I could go on, but I would bore you.
I am guessing you have talked of hell, at some point, with your son. You have probably done all that you feel you can or should do for him.
———-Right.
fishon
SO, bearing in mind my post on Jewish understanding of the afterlife, how did Jesus get from his Jewish beliefs and upbringing – Torah and Talmud led – to whatever some Christians think he believed about Hell? I mean parables aside – parables are parables after all.
The Christian doctrine of hell derives from the teaching of the New Testament, where hell is typically described using the Greek words Tartarus or Hades or the Hebrew word Gehenna. These three terms have different meanings and must be recognized.
Tartarus occurs only once in the New Testament in II Peter 2:4 and is translated as a place of incarceration of demons. It mentions nothing about human souls being sent there in the afterlife.
Hades has similarities to the Old Testament term, Sheol as “the place of the dead”, or in other words, the grave. Thus, it is used in reference to both the righteous and the wicked, since both wind up there eventually.[9]
Gehenna refers to the “Valley of Hinnon”, which was a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem. It was a place where people burned their garbage and thus there always a fire burning there. Bodies of those deemed to have died in sin without hope of salvation (such as people who committed suicide) were thrown there to be destroyed.[10] Gehenna is used in the New Testament as a metaphor for the final place of punishment for the wicked after the resurrection.[11]
bob – “That is what you believe, I guess.”
fishon – “Yes, Bob, that is what I believe because of what the Bible teaches.”
I find this method of determining what to believe to be perplexing. I know I believed like that also, but I honestly don’t remember what it was like, believing that way.
I know this is wasteful and unproductive, but it apparently hasn’t stopped me before
I guess, if your answer is “…I believe because of what the Bible teaches.”, my next question would have to be, “Why do you believe what the bible teaches?” It is at this point that I find the usual responses to be circular in logic. Not saying yours will be, if you respond, but that they usually are. I never get a good R E A S O N for placing ones faith in what the bible says.
Oh well.
ps – is fishon pronounced fish-on? When i go fishing with my dad, and he hooks one, he yells “Fish on!”
Or indeed, reason for believing that that is what the Bible teaches.
Interesting Tiggy.
Late in my Christian experience, I had trouble with the idea of hell. It has been so long since I thought about it, but wasn’t there a comparison to Sodom and Gomorrah? Seems I either remember it from the bible or may remember a minister making the comparison, but I remember thinking about that comparison and kind of changing from my belief that hell was eternal in its punishing “action” (souls live on forever in the eternal torment of fire) to hell was eternal in its punishing “effect” (souls are completely destroyed by hell-fire). I rationalized this because the fires of Sodom and Gomorrah eventually went out once all were consumed, and so would the fires of hell.
Ah, religion.
Geological evidence suggests that there actually was some sort of natural disaster there. There’s thought to have been some influence, maybe via Greek thought, of the Egyptian idea of Hell which is just that – a fire that totally consumes the person. That’s the thing with the image of Hell as fiery – fire tends to consume quite quickly so no one would be around for long.
tiggy asked: how did Jesus get from his Jewish beliefs and upbringing – Torah and Talmud led – to whatever some Christians think he believed about Hell?
———-I don’t know. What matters is, he did.
fishon
How do you know that?
bob said/asked:I know this is wasteful and unproductive, but it apparently hasn’t stopped me before
I guess, if your answer is “…I believe because of what the Bible teaches.”, my next question would have to be, “Why do you believe what the bible teaches?” It is at this point that I find the usual responses to be circular in logic. Not saying yours will be, if you respond, but that they usually are. I never get a good R E A S O N for placing ones faith in what the bible says.
Oh well.
ps – is fishon pronounced fish-on? When i go fishing with my dad, and he hooks one, he yells “Fish on!”
———Bob, when I hook a Steelhead, I say fish on so fast that I just call myself, ‘fishon.’ Oh, it also has to do that I am a fisher of men. My atheist son says ‘fishon,’ too. Haven’t you picked up that phrase yet–or don’t you have enough——-FISHON?
———-To answer your question, Why do I believe what the Bible teaches?
I suppose part of my answer would be just as circular as others. Though I don’t know what the problem would be with a circular anwser? 1+1=2 and the answer to how 1+1=2 is circular.
Bob, I could go into great detail as to why I believe what the Bible teaches, but what would be the point? You have heard it all before. I am not unique. I am no different than the millions that believe what the Bible teaches. If their answers are not sufficent for you; if as you say they are circular, then I have nothing new for you.
You don’t believe what the Bible says about many different issues, I do. I don’t believe your reasons for not believing any more are sufficent–you don’t believe my reasons to believe are sufficent——-I do know this——TIME WILL TELL.
fishon
But how do you know that what Jesus believed and what it says he believed in the Bible are t he same as later Christian thought on Hell? I was expecting you to quote bits from the gospels.
And why are you ignoring me and just talking to Bob?
fishon – “I suppose part of my answer would be just as circular as others. Though I don’t know what the problem would be with a circular anwser?”
No problem with using circular reasoning, if you accept it as a valid answer to your question. I just can’t accept it myself.
“1+1=2 and the answer to how 1+1=2 is circular.”
I don’t think so.
Tiggy said, on July 28th, 2009 at 3:22 pm
But how do you know that what Jesus believed and what it says he believed in the Bible are t he same as later Christian thought on Hell? I was expecting you to quote bits from the gospels.
————-I don’t care what later Christians thought on hell. I only care about what I understand the Bible to teach. And, Tiggy, I looked up some scripture, but decided to not use them. Would it have made a difference? I doubt it; you know them as well as I do.
And why are you ignoring me and just talking to Bob?
———-Didn’t realize that I was. Short answers don’t mean ignoring.
fishon
ACTUALLY, I don’t know them. I expect I’d recognise t hem, but I don’t know what they are offhand or where to find them. I suppose I should read the Bible more, but I don’t like all the numbers everywhere. I’m a bit phobic about numbers and that’s why I didn’t carry on learning theology – I hated having to quote numbers.
What does the Bible indicate that Jesus believed, because I only know what the church taught later and that probably coloured how I saw what Jesus was saying? People didn’t have copies of the Bible for a very long time – they only had pictures of hell on the walls of churches and whatever the priest said.
tiggy,
e-mail me at pastorkrew@hotmail.com
fishon
Tiggy said, “What does the Bible indicate that Jesus believed, because I only know what the church taught later and that probably coloured how I saw what Jesus was saying?”
I think that you mean ‘much later’, but I believe that you inadvertently gave an accurate description of our primary sources(Gospels,Acts,Paul) You seem to make the assumption we can get behind it, but where can we go(Gospel of Thomas????) to get ‘behind it’? We don’t have contemporary eyewitness accounts, and the ones we do have are nothing but coloured, and they don’t appear to be too afraid to use their own paint set.
No, I wanted to know what Jesus said in the Gospels without having to wade through them myself at this present time because I was busy. I don’t have my concordance with me here. I have my doubts about the Gospel of St. Thomas, though not necessarily about the others.
By the way, in looking this up I came across all that ‘St. Jerome and the Dead Sea Scrolls’ stuff. I can’t find the website related to the book now which is really annoying – will have to recreate my trail of links. Don’t know if anyone’s read it, but it’s a bit difficult to assess the arguments unless you’re a scholar of New Testament Greek and the meanings of the words used for durations of time. Though apparently there’s a lot more to it than that if you read to the end. It sounds like an interesting read whatever.
The book is called, predicatbly, ‘The Jerome Conspiracy’. The basis is t hat the Church has covered up the differences between the earliest versions of the 4 gospels and the later translations.
Did the Dead Sea Scrolls contain some early copies of the gospels? Not apocryphal ones, the main four.