I am in Newmarket, Ontario, Canada, taking in Frank Viola’s Re-Imagining the Church conference. It also happens to be my home town, so I’m staying with my family and enjoying them. My nieces and nephews are a delight. My brother and sisters, mom and dad, everybody… it’s great to just hang out and laugh.
Yesterday for lunch my son Joshua and I went down to Toronto and met Karen Padgett, a Fluevog director. We’d never met before but communicated online. Mutual friends. She picked up some of the reverberations of my struggle from some comments I made on Facebook one day, opened up a communication with me, and has been an incredible source of encouragement and wisdom ever since. Lunch at Milestones was a delight. We’re now friends for life.
My z-theory caused a stir! Didn’t it? I expected it would. I don’t cause stirs on purpose. I write what I’m thinking about and inevitably it upsets some people. I frustrate and confuse, I know. I don’t mean to. I experience this in my own community. Like I’ve said before: we are such a wide diversity of people, and I appreciate that. I’m thankful for it. But not everybody likes this. Some see this as the preliminary condition that needs to be transformed into the homogeneous community that looks just like them. They see it as the chaos and void over which the spirit hovers that will take shape into their fantasies for the community. Few see it as beautiful now. There are some charismatics who would like the see the church be a charismatic church where charismatic manifestations define who we are. There are non-charismatics who would prefer that no charismatic manifestations take place at all. There are fundamentalists who would like me to take a hard line on gays. There are others who would like to see more gay couples participate in our community life. There are some who would like us to be a “bible-believing” church, while there are others who are searching for a way to be a believer without having to embrace the plenary-verbal view of inspiration or whatever. I could go on.
The point is that, as a pastor, it is my duty to encourage and nurture the whole, not the part. I want charismatic expression, but I wouldn’t want that to define us. Neither would I want us to be defined as a non-charismatic community. I hear the atheists, but I wouldn’t want atheism to be who we are, any more than I’d want our fundamentalism to define us. All have a right, but none have sole right. Do you see what I mean?
But this is frustrating because some people think I’m not taking a stand but am wishy-washy, watering down, compromising, backboneless, liberal, evasive, etc.. I have to endure a lot of pressure from all sides to make me into their own image of what they think I should be. Few see the amount of lobbying that goes on to try to morph me into their fantasies of what their pastor should look like. It takes daily strength to resist these pressures, to reject the fantasies, and to resolutely stand for unity in diversity for the sake of the community.
I think the z-theory is a unifying theory. I am interested in finding ways of illuminating how we are united, and this theory has given me a way of thinking that does this. It is interesting that something that it intended to be unifying can be so divisive.
I will continue cartooning again early next week. Stay tuned.
Contributions to nakedpastor are greatly appreciated.
David Hayward is a pastor artistically stripping to the essential.
I’m not clear what your definition of ’sin’ is. Everyone makes mistakes, but that’s part of being human and God made us human. Sometimes those mistakes result in people getting hurt and that being hurt can separate us from God as much as what we do. We lose touch with how He created us to be (sometimes people don’t allow us to be how He created us to be) and then it’s just a struggle to survive existentially.
I take responsibility for the collective sins of the world – sins against the planet, against other nations, for example, because although those weren’t my decisions, I’ve participated in them. I’ve benefited from the British inheritance of colonialism through the collective wealth of this country. (UK) I live in a nice flat in Bath while others starve. I guess those are sins, but I try to do some good in my own way rather than beating myself up with guilt.
No, Semety, but the part of Romans that was quoted is itself a quote from the Old Testament. I’m not that stupid – I used to teach RE.
We all need boundaries at times. You don’t have to be constantly praising God. You can just talk to Him and be yourself with him. What He wants is for you to be the person He created you to be and to feel loved.
Sin is missing the mark. Falling short of God’s standard, which is perfection.
In the Sermon on the Mount Jesus tells us that we “must be perfect as our Father in Heaven is perfect”
God’s standard is perfection. Since we don’t measure up, we need a Savior.
God won’t let anyone who is less than perfect into His realm. In Christ Jesus, we are made perfect through His blood and His forgiveness.
It’s not complicated…it’s just that enlightened mankind no longer believes it (many of us, anyway).
Well God is bloody fussy then!
Steve are you n ot aware that the meaning of ‘perfect’ has changed over the centuries? Even a couple of centuries ago it didn’t mean ’spotless’, but ‘complete’. This was also how the ancients understood it. It meant being made whole. It wasn’t to do with some unachievable standard, but God’s healing.
Mankind is post Englightened – catch up!
Tiggy,
That kind of “catching up” is not what we need.
The Christian life is repentance and forgiveness. The law condems us and the gospel forgives us. Dying and rising. This is the shape of the Christian life and it has not changed with man’s so-called progression.
The heart of man(kind) has not changed one iota since the Garden of Eden. That is why we STILL need a Savior.
Any casual glance back at hisory, right up to the present day will confirm that point of view for any who have intellectual honesty.
Gotta run.
I have to drive an hour and a half (round trip) to plug in a old womans T.V. set.
She has alienated everyone around her, so I have to do it.
I think you’ve deliberately missed my point. The ‘Catch-up’ bit was a joke. I fully acknowledge that we need forgiveness and I have accepted God’s forgiveness. I don’t need to keep castigating myself.
You didn’t say anything about the meaning of the word ‘Perfect’ which was the thrust of my comment.
However you want to define perfect…it is what we cannot be on our own.
The law preched to me in it’s fullness, will do the job of keeping me repentant. I don’t have to castigate myself either. But I do realize that I continue to sin, to be self concerned more that concerned for others, or for God.
But, then I hear that pure sweet Word of forgiveness, for Jesus’ sake and I am raised to new life again. This happens to me over and over and over again. It’s not a one time shot and then I go about my business. It is a relationship begun by God, continued by God, and brought to completion by God.
It’s a bit radical, I know, but it is Lutheran theology, and I believe it is an accurate, biblical understanding of the life of faith.
It’s no problem if you don’t agree with it, but I believe it is important to get this message out. For me (anyway) it is very liberating and accentuates tyhe freedom that I have recieved from the religious project of ’self’ by the all complete work of Christ.
Now I’m late!
Ciao!
Though you’d gone Steve.
It’s not how I want to define it – that was its meaning in the time the NT was written and continued to be until fairly recently.I’m fully aware we cannot be made whole on our own and said as much.
Okay, if you think that such a merry-go-round of constant abasement and feelings of self-loathing are a good thing, then go for it. I don’t happen to find constant feelings of guilt either constructive or life-enhancing. Just how many times a day do you do this? I think there are ways to spend our time and energy that are more about loving our neighbours and experiencing the love of God. If I feel I’ve done something wrong, then I try to do something about it and I talk to God about it, but it’s not a constant preoccupation. I believe God wants me to have life in all its fullness and that I’m loved unconditionally by Him. We are not meant to be under the burden of sin.
Luther… hmm. Rather an anal retentive sort of guy.
The quote was from the OT – ah that makes sense Tiggy, sorry.
you actually seem to have a better picture of God, Tiggy. You may or may not be a little doctrinally unsound, but that can sort itself out. we are not bound or together by doctrine, but by the blood of Christ. You’ve got a nice middle ground. And you’re not denying Him from what I see.
actually, from what I’ve read about Luther – At first he saw only the darkness and judgement of God. Then he discovered His mercy. And that’s what lead him into rebellion against the catholic church. They were holding people in bondage with indulgences and such. I kinda admire the guy. him and William Cowper and the guy who wrote “It is well with my soul.”
I’m probably more wrong than you because God is just AND merciful. Not simply vindictive, cruel and capricious.
heh I think I’m jealous.
Wait a sec – to plug in her TV set?? Just to plug it in or to set it up?
You seem very well read for your age and someone who’s only been a Christian a short time, Semety.
Not simply vindictive, cruel and capricious.
I didn’t think God was any of those things. I’m wondering what they preach at your church Sem. I wanted you to look at the sermon we had at our church this Sunday, but I’m not sure the download thing works very well. Might be better on YOUR computer.
http://www.livestream.com/bathcitychurch
Hey what a small world! I found Karen’s Blog when I googled John Fluevog. I used to work for John in downtown Vancouver. I haven’t met Karen but I found her blog to be fun and inspiring. Gotta love those crazy shoes!
I’ve been reading since I was at least 5, possibly younger since I started school when I was 3. It makes sense that I would do some research into someting this big before I considered it. Especially since I was so ardent to prove it wrong, so I could just die.
They don’t preach like I sound Tiggy. They definitely don’t preach like I sound. My roommate has called a couple of the things I’ve set in depressive outbursts a little blasphemous. She’s all for justice. And for mercy. she cares about me. She talked to my brother for two hours after I gave up crying. Even though he didn’t let her get a word in edgewise, and was mostly angry at her. She never gave up on me, even when I was in the hospital, even when I was not Christian. And neither did my friends, fundamentalist though they be.
I’ll check out the sermon.
Here’s one from my church, I think it’s right near the time I was saved, and I remember being moved by it, even though I wasn’t a Christian yet. It’s Ephesians 5:8-14 – From Darkness to Light.
http://www.arpnovascotia.com/covenant/sermons/Text/20080518AM%20Ep%205%208-14%20-%20From%20Darkness%20to%20Light.pdf
If you can’t read that, just go here and look for it. http://www.arpnovascotia.com/covenant/
The video seems fine to me? I don’t need to download it. My last comment is awaiting moderation for some reason. So I’ll just say thanks
Semety,
I had to plug it in and then set it up.
There have been times when all it needed was to be plugged in.
She is elderly and easily confused.
I am almost elderly and easily confused.
Tiggy….”The person was quoting as to how he felt. It doesn’t mean what he quoted is ultimately true in all situations and times.”
Now that’s a breath of fresh air…so nice to hear someone with a vibrant faith read and quote scripture and not sacrifice context to ideological ends…
Tiggy,
Why said anything about self-loathing?
God’s law is a mirror to show us that we are not up to His standards.
Here is a very short piece (by a Lutheran blogger) on repentance:
http://fivepintlutheran.blogspot.com/
I think he explains it better than I.
We’re not under law!
Well that guy in the blog isn’t saying to keep repenting all the time and to see ourselves as bad.
This brings me to the meaning of the word ‘repent’ which is ‘metanoia’ which does not mean to say, ‘I’m sorry, I did something wrong’, but it means ‘to turn to God’. To Greeks it would have had the idea of turning from our small minds into the larger mind of God. I hope our lives do that in an ongoing way.
Btw, I read this tonight related to changes in the Lutheran church. Don’t know if it’s the same all over.
‘We Lutherans have likewise seen a de-emphasis on sin, confession, and absolution. The powers that be make 150% sure that our confession & absolution rite at the beginning of our liturgy is known to be a preparatory rite which should be omitted whenever possible. Of course, we pew-sitters demand it.
In the last hymnal/worship book revision, the people putting it together finally found the answer: provide an alternative to the confession & absolution. That alternative is the rite of sprinkling.’
Sprinkling?? Now that sounds much nicer. That would make me turn towards God much more than trying to find ways in which I was bad. It’s raining now and I can just imagine the water being sprinkled on my face like a blessing.
Did you listen to that whole sermon, Semety? Did you see Stewart filled with ‘the spirit of bunny-hopping’?
I like the bit where the lady calls out, ‘You’re lovely!’
Stewart IS a sweetie.
I don’t think we ought to see ourselves as bad, either. Just not good enough to merit justification on our own.
For righteousness sake, we are not under law. But in this life, we are still subject to God’s law. Just try robbing a bank and see if we are not under law.
Lutherans are all over the map. Many are throwing the law out of the window.
I’m not one of those type Lutherans.
I have not heard of the rite of sprinkling. I have heard of baptism, and think quite a lot of it.
I return to my baptism each day, and realize that God has put my sinful self to death in baptism, and raised me again with Christ.
This keeps the focus (the onus) on Christ’s work for me, and keeps me off the religious rat wheel of my own works and progression.
Thanks, Tiggy.
The law that sends you to prison for robbing a bank isn’t God’s law. A Christian friend of mine is in prison for something she did that was totally in self-defence. But her lawyer wasn’t as good as the other guy’s. We’re all shocked that they’ve decided on that sentence considering how full our prisons are and that she’s not a danger to anyone, but we hope that God has put her there for a reason and that she’ll be able to minister to others. God would have understood the truth of the situation and not punished her. I don’t believe he’s punishing her now. The state is punishing her and maybe God is using that for his purposes.
God’s law is anything that we should, ought or must do (or not do) in order to fulfill our existence.
It is not merely the 10 Commandments.
Civil law is an extension of God’s law. (Romans 13)
I’m sorry to hear of your friend’s predicament. There certainly is a lot of injustice in this world.
Haven’t had the chance to watch the whole thing yet. The audio on my computer’s not great. I have a hard time hearing anyways, and it gets a little tiring to keep watching his tiny little mouth. But I will watch it. The first 5 minutes seemed good.
Steve – I’m pretty sure the state’s law and God’s law are not the same, because there are injust laws.. Plus we are held accountable to God’s law, but it’s by faith we are saved.
I know that the Presbyterians do sprinkle-baptism, but I’m not sure if that’s what they’re referring to there. Because baptism is part of confession, not an alternative to it. Me, I definitely side with the baptists on this. Even though I was terrified and still am terrified of being underwater, I was baptised by immersion, because I believed that’s what scriptures said. I still believe that, but the arguements for sprinkling seem fairly valid, so I wouldn’t say that it didn’t count or something like that. Baptism was freeing somehow, even though I never ever ever want to do that again.
Civil Law where? Laws are different everywhere. As Semety said, there are many unjust and persecutory laws. I don’t believe that the laws of the Taliban or the Religious Police in Iran and Saudi are an extension of God’s law. And anyway that has nothing to do with repentance.
I think the sprinkling they referred to was a sacrament, though I’ve never heard of it. I don’t think he meant just non-immersion baptism or Christening as we used to call it. It’s be a great way to wake the congregation up on a Sunday morning. They should do it just after the sermon.
Semety,
I think if a law goes is immoral and goes against God’s stated will we do not have to follow it. But most laws are not immoral (even though we might not agree with them).
Take a peek at Romans 13 again.
I argue that if one is speeding in their automobile, going over the posted limit, then they are transgressing God’s law also, because they are not obeying the authority which God has ordained. (government)
Hear, hear! It’s crazy how people don’t take speed limits seriously even though it kills people.
But that is because it makes sense to have those laws. It’s not a matter of our salvation.
I hadn’t realised till I came on here how many Christians were legalistic. Jesus got into a lot of trouble because he and his disciples broke laws. Things like picking ears of corn to eat on the Sabbath. Now that law didn’t go ‘against God’s stated will’, but it was such legalism that Jesus spoke out against. God’s laws are to be written on our hearts, not in lists of Dos and Don’ts.
I know we’re supposed to obey the laws of the land. I was just saying that God’s law is bigger than that. The law of the land is not neccessarily God’s law and doesn’t show that we’re accountable to God for our actions.
We are accountable, but you can’t show that. Although you can show people that they’ve broken the law, so that they know what they are saved from.
oh standing up after the Sermon usually helps, or that little cup of wine (ick – It’s hard to believe people drink that stuff for real. :b ) I think that’s why we do the last song standing. And also why the opening song after the prayer meeting is done standing when the rest aren’t.
NP – If you’re still reading this. I thought I should thank you for letting us go off onto our own little conversations on your blog. I know I really appreciate it.
We dance a lot at our church and the music is very loud. Also we can take coffee in with us which helps and laying down on the floor is positively encouraged.
You don’t like wine? I’ve just started going to what’s described as a ‘New Wine’ church. Now I want to find a ‘Gin and Tonic’ church!
I don’t drink coffee.. or tea… or hot chocolate. Yeah I’m weird.
And no I don’t like wine. I’ve got nothing against a little alcohol, it just usually tastes gross. Even though I’m pretty sure it dealcoolised wine.
I think the wine has certain symbolism. Wine presses, grapes and such. Plus something to do with it not having yeast. Which is why it’s wine and not grape juice.
And it looks like that post has been approved, if you want to scroll up and look at the link
I’ll finsih the sermon tomorrow. Just found out an old friend I haven’t talked to in awhile became Christian in the interim. And we had a lovely conversation. I’m so happy for him. I definitely needed the good news.
Where did you put a comment? I can’t see anywhere for comments. There was one bit of that sermon I wasn’t keen on and I guess it was a rather ‘Lutheran’ bit on repenting, but the way Stewart portrayed it gave it definite OCD overtones. It did seem very odd in the overall context of the message and I remember thinking, no that’s exactly what not to do.
My friend was baptised at that service and it was really nice.
I didn’t like any alcohol till I was 22. You have to be in the right mood for wine and it’s supposed to accompany a good meal. I find it makes a change from sweet drinks, but then I don’t drink sweet wine.
umm I think we’re talking about two different things. I was talking about a comment here.
I like sweet drinks..
I was awake the whole night, so some confusion is to be expected. Too much late night excitement posting on three blogs and trying not to get them confused. Early night tonight as have a meeting about my finances in the morning.
Aw *hugs*, money kinda sucks. I’ll pray for you.
That was a pretty good sermon. That guy’s quite enthusiastic, reminds me a bit of Mark Driscoll’s sermons. The bunny hopping was funny. Our pastor is energetic enough, but I’m pretty sure he wouldn’t do that. I liked the way they did the Lord’s supper. I think the presbyterians would quite agree with his definition too. Except they tend to warn unbelievers about drinking judgement on themselves.
That’s alright, I was a little confused too. Since I don’t remember ever needing a post moderated. It might have been the links.
‘drinking judgement on themselves’?? lol
Stewart tends to let it all hang out. That was one of his more structured sermons. He’s very in touch with his feminine side.
They encourage us to break bread in our homes as well, in fellowship with others. At meals and mealtimes.
Yeah I saw that. Thought it was a good idea. Actually it was something my roommate and I considered when were looking up stuff on communion. Also the whole going up and actually ‘having supper’ with one another seemed more accurate. Instead of just sitting in our pews staring at each other’s heads. We even suggested having the meal between the bread and the wine, like Jesus did when he instituted it.
I think the drinking judgement thing is from Corinthians. Either way, it is a serious thing, with what it symbolizes, and what it means. I couldn’t take it before I was christian. I just knew it would be somehow dishonouring. Which was a little funny for someone claiming not to believe in God. And I was so relieved when I could. It helps me to have it, just cause it keeps reminding me to look to Jesus, which I sometimes forget.
Sorry Semety, but I have absolutely no idea what you mean by this. Can you explain?
‘I think the drinking judgement thing is from Corinthians.’
When I was at uni, our Friday night contemplative prayer group would have a meal together before the praying and we’d have the bread and wine (or grape juice) as part of the meal. We even had a very short liturgy to accompany it. I can’t remember if we had it at the start or end of the meal though.
Eating together is a big part of the Jewish tradition and I think it should be of the Christian one. When I first went to church we would have a simple meal of soup and bread together once a week and now we have food at our discipleship or community groups. We all bring something to share and share what’s been happening in our lives too.
I mean that I think that he got the drinking judgement onto youself from Corinthians? I mean I don’t know where he found it, but I’m pretty sure he has quoted the Bible on that matter. That statement was supposed to be on its own..
what is a liturgy?
We eat together at church – morning service, lunch (people bring stuff), prayer meeting, evening service. and we have snacks at bible study. And a friend has starting bringing treats to the friday night group, even before that we met at the coffee shop after we’ve been out witnessing for awhile, usually around 1am.
I meant afternoon service. It used to be in the evening.
Trey,
I didn’t mean to say that NP’s theory was selfish. Only that God has provided all we need for the understanding of how He has come to save us.
The focus ought be on Christ and His work for us, and how He comes to us from outside of ourselves in Word and Sacrament.
When we delve into other explanations we can be taken away from the core of the message….Christ for us.
hehe – Steve I think you replied in the wrong spot
I’m sure I did. I’m lucky if I know where I am half the time
Wow, the people at your church eat a lot!
I’ve never heard the phrase ‘drinking judgement unto yourself’ and I’m thinking you may have misheard it. ‘Bringing judgement on yourself’ is more likely. The former makes no sense.
the bible study is seperate from the church, so is the friday thing.