The Torture Memos and International Accountability
If I injure someone but forgive myself in order to move on, that does not exempt me from the actual guilt or from the necessity of compensation and even discipline. If I harm someone but provide closure for myself in order to get on with life, that’s called sociopathological… a condition where I am unaware of the ramification of my actions upon others, or if I am aware, I don’t care. Individuals should be aware of the injury they inflict upon others and be willing to bear the consequences. This is why I support victim impact statements.
If my son seriously hurts someone and causes trauma not only to that person but to my family, it would be unethical for my family to forgive my son and forget the injury so that we can resume our happy life without regard for the injured. My son must understand the seriousness of the injury he inflicted on that person, even if it costs him and my family a great deal. I would want my son to be able to think outside of the confines of his own life. I would want my family to be able to think sympathetically outside the boundaries of the comfort and stability of our own home, and even empathize with the injured.
So there should be an inquiry into the “torture memos”. Attorneys wrote memos giving legal advice that in essence gave permission for the CIA to use harsh interrogation methods when questioning suspected terrorists. This and the system that supported it need to be examined. If we are going to think in protectionist ways, then we are doomed to becoming a law unto ourselves. The bishops who covered up sex-offending priests soon learned that they were not allowed to manage the crisis in isolation but were required to think and act globally and bring the offenders to a public justice.
Senator McCain believes that the American people need closure and to move on. If another nation who committed atrocities upon another nation said that they were sorry but were moving on, there would be an international uproar! No other nation would be allowed to exempt themselves from the torture they inflicted on others so that they could close that chapter in their history without there first being some kind of reckoning in the international court. The day of thinking provincially about how we do things is over. We are called to be responsible citizens of this world, not just our own nations. I’m not a legal expert by no means, so I can’t make declarations on what should happen to the attorneys. But at least it must begin with some kind of admission that their advice was used to endorse torture. And the threat that this would make it difficult for the government to acquire legal advice in the future is empty. Justice ought to be thorough, even to the roots of the laws insinuating that torture was permissible under any circumstance. We must agree that no nation is ethically free to do whatever it wants without global accountability.
It is the same with the Christianity or any religion for that matter. It can no longer think of itself as an enclave of a different moral order not liable to the universal community. The new hermeneutic of our history, traditions, books, documents and actions needs to be one of universal love and global justice. If we exact hate, discrimination, injustice, exploitation, or injury upon any other human being, then we have to be willing to be accountable when we are challenged by the international community. We are members one of another, and we must start behaving so.
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Thank you for saying this David. The Truth & Reconciliation system in South Africa, and a similar system in Rwanda, have found what you say to be true. If it isn’t examined and dealt with openly and truthfully, then the system is damaged forever in the minds of the people. When democracy is damaged, we all suffer and extremism rises.
It will be hard for the American people and many may hide behind ‘alls fair in love and war’ and the idea that we have to torture ‘them’ to protect ourselves – as read on your pages recently, but it will be for the strengthening of the national identity and would increase the respect that has been so sadly lost, if it were to be handled honestly.
I think when a Christian individual/group/nation – loses touch with basic issues of justice towards humanity, its really sad and damaging to the reputation of Jesus.
It is the same with the Christianity or any religion for that matter. It can no longer think of itself as an enclave of a different moral order not liable to the universal community.
———Romans 12:2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
———Col. 2:3″In him {Christ} lie hidden ALL [caps mine] the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. I am telling you this so NO ONE [caps mine] will deceive you with well-crafted arguments.”
——–What whooy. Some day the universal community is going to be liable to Christ.
——–What whooy. And when the universal community says you can NOT worship Christ will you be a little universal clone?
——–What whooy. Christ supercedes the universal community.
——–No wonder you admit to struggling to fine joy in your life—-you are following the ever changing philosophies of this world. You stand on sandy soil.
——–Col. 2:8-9 “Don’t let anyone capture you with empty philosophies and hig-sounding nonsense that come from human thinking and from the spiritual powers of this world, rather than from Christ.”
——–Christianity libable to the universal community. NEVER! The blood of the apostles scream–”NEVER!”
——–Roman was the universal community—and countless CHRISTIAN martyrs died because they would not embrace the universal community of Rome’s morality.
“We are members one of another, and we must start behaving so.”
——–John 15:19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.
***********members one of another—I think not.
——–John 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it.
***********members one of another—I think not.
——–2 Corinthians 1:12 Now this is our boast: Our conscience testifies that we have conducted ourselves in the world, and especially in our relations with you, in the holiness and sincerity that are from God. We have done so not according to worldly wisdom [universal communities morality] but according to God’s grace.
***********members one of another—I think not.
——–1 Cor. 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight.
***********Universal community morals—I think not.
——–Members one of another.
***********Only Christians are members one of another. All the rest are “enemies of God.” LOOK IT UP.
You want to argue the USA should be liable to the universal community–that is one thing——–but to claim that for the Christian faith is utter nonsense–and sooo not biblical—but worldly by any standard.
fishon
i have friends working in Belfast to bring reconciliation between Catholics and Protestants. They are doing GREAT work.
EP
fishon: there are so many problems with your response. for instance… why would you allow that the USA must be liable, but Christians aren’t? Peter says that Christians may be persecuted for being Christians, but shouldn’t be surprised if they are persecuted for doing wrong. we are beholden to one another, are we not?
fishon – am afraid in this case that Christians (ie the previous US govt) showed their standards to be even lower than those of the rest of the universal community, and those of the Bible, by their behaviour. Christianity and the name of Jesus have been damaged by this around the entire globe.
Just a reminder that all are made in the image of God. He is willing that none should perish. You maybe give up too easy?!
Fishon,
There is that alcoholic mind again. Check out the 12 Steps in Alcoholics Anonymous especially with regard to making amends to those we have harmed. We don’t get to skip that if the people we hurt are pagan or muslim or heretics or anytrhing else. Whether the world hates me or not does not absolve me of the responsibilty of loving it and those in it. I am glad Jesus doesn’t think like you or He would have left this God-hating drunken drug addict right where He found me.
“We air our dirty laundry in public because it is the only way to get it clean.” — Fr. Andrew Greeley, on the problems in his own denomination (the RCC).
nakedpastor said, on April 24th, 2009 at 3:37 pm
fishon: there are so many problems with your response. for instance… why would you allow that the USA must be liable, but Christians aren’t?
——–No, David. You are making a strawman with that responce. You said very clearly:::::::It is the same with the Christianity or any religion for that matter. It {Christianity} can no longer think of itself as an enclave of a different moral order not liable to the universal community. When you try to use Peter’s words as proof for what you said, you are building a ’strawman’ arguement.
YOU:::Peter says that Christians may be persecuted for being Christians, but shouldn’t be surprised if they are persecuted for doing wrong. we are beholden to one another, are we not?
——–Peter is talking about the individual been held accountable to laws of the land that are not against God’s law.
You on the other hand, by you statement are not isolating that as an individual should be held liable to the universal community, but Christianity [that is not individual], the whole be held liable to it. Huge difference.
Now if you have misspoken or I have misunderstood, and you mean only individual Christians should be held liable to the universal community, that is a different debate. But to maintain that Christianity as a whole be held liable by…that is preposterous.
fishon
greggmac said, on April 24th, 2009 at 3:41 pm
——-Interesting. My thoughts and beliefs are because of my “alcoholic mind,” but you are trying to correct me with your “alcoholic mind.” How can I trust what you say when you have the same ‘alcoholic mind’ as mind? Why would I consider what you say with your ‘alcoholic mind?’ Why Greg, am I suppose to think you have it all together now, and you ‘alcoholic mind’ is free and clear, yet mine is not?
What’s an old drunk to do?
fishon
Biblical massacre of context time…oh man fishon – how is it these select pieces of writings back whatever point it is you are trying to make? Explain please.
While I wait – mine as well dig into these passages.
“No wonder you admit to struggling to fine joy in your life—-you are following the ever changing philosophies of this world. You stand on sandy soil”
What is that Christianity would find against a single thing David has stood for here again? Do Christians support torture? No. Do Christians support not being acountable to the law? No. Do Christians not love their neighbors? No. David is basically saying some very simple things to Christianity in a nutshell – love your neighbor, do not committ vicious acts of violence against your neighbor, speak up when these acts happen, and be accountable for your actions (repentance)…simple really.
Now if that is a philosophy of the world – then the world got something right.
“Roman was the universal community—and countless CHRISTIAN martyrs died because they would not embrace the universal community of Rome’s morality.” (fishon)
But this is making a comparison that ought not exist – or is quite unfair. Rome was quite dictorial in many aspects – and was not a democratic state in all regards…but our current universal community is not dictorial nor closed minded (or religiously intolerant). So the comparison is skewed and generalistic – which is a very common Christian motif when reading passages from the generalistic texts that were written.
Regardless of any of that, the issue is banning torture and finding accountability – which of these 2 things do you not support?
“Only Christians are members one of another. All the rest are “enemies of God.” LOOK IT UP.” (fishon)
Well as members ‘one of another’ (which is ludicrous since fishon later calls Christianity ‘individual’) – I think we all need to take this message to heart and seriously consider the ideas for our other brothers and sisters worldwide – what is best for them (so in some sense this is universal)? Wouldn’t we not want torture to happen to our friends worldwide? Wouldn’t we want people to be held accountable for actions of atrocity against our friends? We best support endeavors that seek such justice and mercy.
Fishon, before you get to ‘seperated’ about what the Christian community’s duty is – regard this tidbit from Jesus:
“For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? “If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?” (Matt 5:46-47)
Why do we engage people like Fishon. Fishon and others who think/believe the same way already have their minds made up on how they interpret scripture. It just becomes circular, tit-for-tat diatribes. Can’t we all recognize that we are brothers and sisters in Christ and that different viewpoints are welcome to the table of G-D? i would just like to challenge all of us, including myself, that NONE of us has all the correct answers, none of us has a monopoly on interpretations, and NONE of us has a monopoly on knowing G-D’s heart on every matter. i would foght to the death to uphold Fishon’s right to his views even if i disagree. It just seems we get nowhere in these conversations. Someone always has an answer AND IF ONE OR TWO PEOPLE ARE NOT OPEN TO RETHINKING THEIR POSITIONS, THEN IT JUST BECOMES a stench imho. i did not mean to type the ALL CAPS! i hit it and am not going back to change it. i was not yelling!
Warmest Regards,
EP
I’m not sure what good victim impact statements should do. I guess if individuals should be accountable then nations should too. And Christians should be accountable for their errors, and churches for theirs (ie priest molesting). I’m not sure what you’re trying to say about christianity – a religion can’t be held accountable. And I’m not sure future generations should pay for the mistakes of the past.
Sometimes punishment punishes the victims – innocent and guilty alike.
Existential Punk,
A question.
Do you have your mind made up about ANY scripture and what it means?
Why is it that some people dislike people like me having a concrete, particular opinion about scripture and voicing that opinion?
EP, is there not anything in your thinking and knowing that you are not open to rethinking that pertains to biblical things?
When Paul tells Timothy that “All Scripture is…and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work,” do you not think that is not for us today?
And why, oh why does it bother you so that others want to engage people like fishon? Apparently you must think something is wrong with them to engage me, or you would not have asked them such a question.
If you don’t want to engage me is fine, but to hint at others to silence me by their silence is interesting to me.
YOU say:::’Can’t we all recognize that we are brothers and sisters in Christ and that different viewpoints are welcome to the table of G-D?”
But you also say:::Why do we engage people like Fishon?
————Kinda contradictive—different viewpoints are welcome, but why engage people like fishon who has a different point of view?
I wait expectantly to see which Existential Punk shows up. The one who says different viewpoints are welcome or the one who says “Why do we engage people like Fishon.”
fishon
societyvs,
Come on, man. I made it very clear what I took issue with David about. I will repeat it since you missed it and went off on a tangent.
****It is the same with the Christianity or any religion for that matter. It can no longer think of itself as an enclave of a different moral order not liable to the universal community.****
—–I didn’t go off on torture, not being accountable to law, loving your neighbor as you suggest. One issue, man, one issue.
YOU:but our current universal community is not dictorial nor closed minded (or religiously intolerant).
——What universal community? The Chinese part; or maybe you were thinking of North Korea or Cuba. I am happy to learn the Saudia Arabia is now not religiously intolerant. And it is great to learn that the biggest country in your universal community, “China” is now allowing freedom of religion [religous tolerance] for the Chinese house churches.
YOU:(which is ludicrous since fishon later calls Christianity ‘individual’)
——–You might want to reread that. No, I will quote what I said:::but Christianity [that is not individual], ——–check it out.
YOU:Fishon, before you get to ‘seperated’ about what the Christian community’s duty is – regard this tidbit from Jesus:
“For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? “If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?” (Matt 5:46-47)
——————-What does that have to do with what I challenged David about?
I wasn’t addressing Christian duty. I specificaly addressed::::It is the same with the Christianity or any religion for that matter. It can no longer think of itself as an enclave of a different moral order not liable to the universal community.
fishon
Tell the people who’s lives were saved in L.A. from the exposure of a plot to crash planes into bulidings that ‘waterboarding’ is wrong.
Whe you are dealing with murderers of innocent people, getting info. by waterboarding, or keeping people awake for a couple of days is NOT torture.
The true evil would be to not obtain that info. and let many innocents be killed and the lives of many families be ruined.
Life is not fair. Get over it.
“Life is not fair. Get over it.” (Steve)
Ever been waterboarded? How the hell can you not call putting someone into the brink of what they think is death it isn’t torture? That’s nuts. Regardless, torture doesn’t get the info you always need – people will say anything under certain types of torture – to get out of said pain…think about it.
“I wasn’t addressing Christian duty. I specificaly addressed::::It is the same with the Christianity or any religion for that matter. It can no longer think of itself as an enclave of a different moral order not liable to the universal community.” (fishon)
Okay, I’ll give you that – sorry – lets go at this single issue.
Christianity cannot think of itself as an enclave to itself – why – because it is not (the whole world can see us now – thank u internet). So the things we ’support’ or ‘reject’ are effecting things and that’s the point. We can’t expect other religions to not look into their mirrors if we will not – and I repeat – if we will not (that’s the biblical standard as far as I can tell from Matt 7).
So if the int’l community is calling Christian communities into check – it’s sad that Christian ethics have to be called into question by what you call the ‘world’ – apparently on some issue they have enlightened moral ethics…as unbelievable as this is.
One simple example is Catholicisms ban on condoms in the family – it’s outright rejection of birth control. It’s less a problem here as it is in parts of Africa – where Aids is spreading and birth control can help ease the growth (and namely condoms I speak of). That’s one example of reading a situation from a concrete position that does not work in all places at all times.
Another example could be the religious right supporting a war in Iraq – which had nothing to do with terror (until they got attacked) globally – yet it was still basically unconditionally supported because it was…America the beautiful…they can’t be wrong. Problem is – they were and allocated resources to a country they claimed was harboring terrorism and a global threat only to find their suspicions were bs. Then they changed tunes after the fact – and even though Christians found out they were ‘lied to’ they still backed that regime.
So yeah – there are problems within the faith of Christianity – and sometimes we get it wrong by leaps and bounds – and the int’l community has a right to call that into question…as far as int’l community that is more aimed at countries but faiths all exist in countries regardless so they are part of that country when they back it almost without question.
The Int’l community is the place to meet as equals and discuss these issues – as diplomats – to work out issues for the best outcome. Does it always work – no. But does that mean the Int’l community is wrong for calling into question wrongs worldwide – even though it can do little to change any of that?
I have been waterboarded (Naval trianing).
Many of U.S. servicemen undergo similar training.
Our enemy just cuts peoples digits off, or limbs off, or burns people.
You don’t information from evil terrorists by offering them flowers and candy.
I’m sorry. Life is messy.
Fishon,
——-Interesting. My thoughts and beliefs are because of my “alcoholic mind,” but you are trying to correct me with your “alcoholic mind.” How can I trust what you say when you have the same ‘alcoholic mind’ as mind? Why would I consider what you say with your ‘alcoholic mind?’ Why Greg, am I suppose to think you have it all together now, and you ‘alcoholic mind’ is free and clear, yet mine is not?
yup, having completed the 12 steps I am somewhat freed up from my alcoholic mind; happens around step 10
“I have been waterboarded (Naval trianing).” (Steve)
Continously until near uncomsciousness – day after day? Likely not…but I am guessing if you think that continual torture is going to reveal some dark secrets that are accurate – hey you got more faith than most here. My guess is most people after experiencing that much torture month after month will admit to killing JFK if it saves more of the same.
If they are so damn good at this – how come they went against the best CIA info they had and went into Iraq? Shouldn’t torture of revealed most of these original 9-11 terrorists were not from there and had no connection to it? For some reason that didn’t happen. Top of that, what new info is coming out that is saving any of the world from Gitmo?
Fact is, CIA doing it’s job was much better than torture. 9-11 was planned years before in Indonesia – and was foiled in that country – by police manuevers…not torture. yet this info was widely available in the intelligene community and was not used. Yet torture is going to reveal the next big attack – of the which – these people being tortured know little about anyways – so torture become useless and what it is being called – simply just torture.
And as self proclaiming Christians – how on earth can we support such endeavores anyways…as a naval marine go right ahead – but don’t try convince me Jesus served in your amy and supported such ideals. Nothing in his teachings even get close to him supporting torture – heck even his was at best avoided (cried blood according to one text). His torture should be the last one any Christian ever thinks about.
Societyvs,
Christianity cannot think of itself as an enclave to itself – why – because it is not (the whole world can see us now – thank u internet). So the things we ’support’ or ‘reject’ are effecting things and that’s the point. We can’t expect other religions to not look into their mirrors if we will not – and I repeat – if we will not (that’s the biblical standard as far as I can tell from Matt 7).
———–Enclave is not the issue. The issue is Christianity is a different moral order than the World. And there is no biblical evidence to even suggest that holds us liable to the universal community. Christianity is held liable to its head, Christ. That is my arguement, plain and simple. Not the other lines of debate you are trying to manufacture.
So if the int’l community is calling Christian communities into check – it’s sad that Christian ethics have to be called into question by what you call the ‘world’ – apparently on some issue they have enlightened moral ethics…as unbelievable as this is.
———–Which int’l community. China, Venezuela, maybe Iran, or is it the Congo?
No nation, no world is more enlightened about morality than Christianity.
Oops, wrong fishon, why the wonderful UN community has done a lovely job
with the Sudan, just to name one. Yep, the old int’t community is the icons of
morality.
One simple example is Catholicisms ban on condoms in the family – it’s outright rejection of birth control. It’s less a problem here as it is in parts of Africa – where Aids is spreading and birth control can help ease the growth (and namely condoms I speak of). That’s one example of reading a situation from a concrete position that does not work in all places at all times.
————-How about good old NT morals. Oops, that will never do.
Another example could be the religious right supporting a war in Iraq
————–Where might I find the declaration for the war as a Christian manifesto.
Individuals within the Christian community were ok with that war.
I take it that you are not for anyone going to war against the War Lords of
Sudan?
all exist in countries regardless so they are part of that country when they back it almost without question.
The Int’l community is the place to meet as equals and discuss these issues – as diplomats
———————–Fine and dandy. However, that has NOTHING to do with Christianity liable to the int’l community. Christianity is not about diplomacy–it is about following Christ and his Word. If Jesus had been about diplomacy, he would not have hung on the cross. If Christianity is about diplomacy, then the apostles would not have died a marytrs death.
fishon
CIA has recently confirmed that waterboarding was the method used to foil the L.A. planes into buildings plan.
greggmac said, on April 24th, 2009 at 9:10 pm
yup, having completed the 12 steps I am somewhat freed up from my alcoholic mind; happens around step 10
—————-Having been saved and cleansed from sin–Jesus freed me, completely from what you call an alcholic mind. I am not somewhat freed–I am completely freed. Jesus doesn’t heal half-way.
fishon
Steve,
These ‘pick-and-choose’ outbursts of outrage at the Bush administration and waterboarding is laughable. Where were they when Clinton was taking terriorsts and sending them to be questioned by countries He knew would use torture? Even the Anti-American ACLU acknowledges the Clinton administration particapated in Extraordinary Rendition.
Yep, funny how they pick and choose.
Kinda like when my son went to Bosnia. Don’t remember any protests about that. And I can’t remember Bosnia/Serbia attacking us? Wonder where all tha anti-first strikers were then. I wonder, did Societyvs write against that war—and we still have troops on the ground there.
fishon
Fishon,
You are absolutely right. The Dems knew full well what was going on and agreed to it.
I’m glad they did. It was the right thing to do.
If we had these hypocritical, hyper-liberal, lovie-dovie, are enemies are our equals, types in our government during WWII we would all be speaking German today. (those of us and our families that would not have been exterminated).
The political left is full of vengence for it’s adversaries. It is a tin-pot dictator, third world power hungry, punish your rivals mentality.
Steve,
Interesting how Obama let out some secret memos and is hailed as a hero, but Cheney says, how about some more, and he is labeled a scum-dog by the liberal/socialist, Obama lap-dog media.
And one other thing Steve–if push came to shove, all these “Oh no, we can’t do anything it takes to get info. from a terrorist to save lives,” if they knew that if there son or daughter was in danger of a terrorist bomb set to go off in the city their child lived, well they would be the first to pour the water.
fishon
Fishon,
You got that right.
They are nothing more than political grandstanders.
And there we have it….The Myth of Redemptive Violence…if anyone is interested,I posted this recently…it’s worth the read…
http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/content/cpt/article_060823wink.shtml
Way to go ascribing value and worth to others also of the same body as you. I’m so inclined to be able to learn anything at all from you.
You may show up here so you can educate/ridicule those of us with a much less rigid conservative viewpoint, but by just condemning people and their ideas in that way, you lose any authority or influence to teach. Wise up.
Sorry finf, we cross posted. My comments were to the two gents whose voices were heard above.
fishon and steve: when we need someone to come in and torture our enemies, we’ll know who to call. seriously, how can you claim that torture is in the spirit of Jesus? i’m not saying i know what i would do under extreme circumstances, but i know what i’d want to do. i would like to say here and now that if i resorted to torture that i will have abandoned the clear teachings of Jesus. being followers of Jesus seems all well and good to you guys until it is trumped by political expediency or fear for our lives. but that seems to me exactly where the teachings of Jesus, as stated in the sermon on the mount, should apply, shouldn’t they? where the rubber meets the road? again, i totally expect you guys to talk among yourselves about how much of a sissyfied pinkass liberal commie i am or something, and i acknowledge i have never been under the threat of death, nor my loved ones, by a terrorist. but i would hope, sincerely, that i would not betray my faith in that hour.
fishon
The NT makes it clear with this statement.
1 Thessalonians 5:21 (English Standard Version)
“But test everything; hold fast what is good.”
I guess maybe you and Steve need a refresher on what is Good.
Maybe protecting innocent lives from murderers is GOOD.
Maybe keeping someone (a terrorist) awake for a few days to find out where hidden bombs are so that children won’t have thier arms or legs blown off…is GOOD.
Maybe some of you folks ought see photos pf innocent children maimed by terrorist bombs. Who have had their faces blown off.
Some of you live in a dreamworld.
The day is evil. Remember that.
Steve
With your logic we should be “Expecting” the fathers of the Iraqies that have had their childrens arms and legs blown off by our bombs to chase us down and torture us too. Tell me something, where does it end? Freedom fighter to some, Terrorist to others. Are you saying you know the difference?
TfT,
Right. We are the terrorists.
And we were the terrorists when we bombed Nazi cities in WWII.
Like I said, many live in a dreamworld. The real world is messy.
I’ll tell you where it ends….it NEVER ends.
Not until that Day when God says it shall end. It might be tomorrow, ot ten thousand years from tomorrow.
Until then, we ought fight to keep our freedoms, to protect our families and neighbors, and to not let evil have the day.
Let’s not forget the legacy of a Martin Luther King and his mentor Gandhi….and who was Gandhi’s influence?
The non-violent tactics of the MLK’s and Gandhi’s of the world only work when applied against a basically civilized and good society.
Against the likes of the Nazis or the Imperial Japanese, or the Taliban the MLKs and Gandhi’s would just be done in and their followers would just be done in…and that would be the end of it.
Steve
Black and White is your world. You are right and they are wrong. You have not caused any of the problems the world. It is just the Bad guy on the other side of the pond. Wow.
Who said that? (other than you?)
There has always been, and there always be evil in this world.
Live for awhile under Taliban rule, and see it firsthand.
For a GREAT non-violent approach to the Nazis, watch the wonderful film, ‘Amen’. The very end is heart-wrenching and so sacrificial, like Jesus.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0280653/
I understand yr position Steve, but at some time the cycle of ‘redemptive violence’ needs to be challenged if we really want to move toward peace,and isn’t that where the words of Jesus will be most effective. It cd be said that the gospel gives the world a counter-arguement to the myth of ‘redemptive violence’…a myth that we all have been born into and raised on a steady diet of.
If there would have been a non-violent way to deal with the Nazis that would have been terrific.
I say that had we dealt with the Nazis from the begginging instead of being blind to their evil designs and trying to ascribe our “goodness” to them, we would have saved millions upon millions of lives.
Siometimes in this world you have to fight for all you are worth to stay free and alive, and to keep others free and alive.
The trouble here is evil, and wicked men and ideologies, that cannot be dealt with in any way other than what will work.
Democracies rarely attack each other.
The world contains evil, wicked people and that fact will never change until the Kingdom comes.
steve: when jesus said to turn the other cheek (when someone violently attacks you) or to give more (when they violate you and your possessions), or to pray for your enemies (those who oppose you and try to destroy you), what do you think he meant? when someone bumps into you on the subway, or accidentally takes two bites of your chocolate bar instead of one, or someone who decides they don’t like you today because you hurt their feelings? what is it? is it all about scale for you? if jesus was just talking to individuals and not nations, then who’s accountable?
Jesus said to turn the other cheek when YOU are attacked…not when someone is attacking someone else.
What kind of love lets an innocent person be hurt or killed by another?
Did not Jesus tell the disciples to take a sword with them out into the world?
Luke 22 :36
We are all accountable.
If we choose to ignore evil and let them run roughshod over the innocent, then we will be accountable.
These days, it is much easier to fight against those who DO fight evil, than to face evil itself.
You can get killed fighting evil.
Whe you fight against those that fight evil…not much is going to happen to you.
Steve….read on in Luke and the reason for that statement becomes self-evident
FiF,
OK. I did.
I see nothing that undo Jesus wanting them to be able to protect themselves and others.
What do you make of it?
Luke 17:21 (English Standard Version)
nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”
The only world we have is the one we can see, until we realize that were all in this together, we will continue to fight. Im not saying dont fight, what I am saying is what part do I(we) play in the reasons we still feel the need to fight? If you were a poor, starving muslim boy in Afghanistan or Iraq or Pakistan, I would bet money you would be one of their “Freedom” fighters. But what you probably are, is a “white, middle class american” who has free access to democracy and clean drinking water, and you dont have to dodge bombs from B-52s on a semi regular basis. Maybe if we took our foot off the throats of the innocent we good then get them to help us track down the guilty. Until then, they will only see us as invading infidels.
Live for awhile under Taliban rule, and see it firsthand.(Steve)
Im just curious, do you know how the Taliban and Osama(Al qaeda) initially became so powerful in that region?
We don’t put our feet on “anyone’s throat” in this world without good reason.
Those bases in Afghanistan were traing terrorists to attack the U.S.
Many of the 9/11 (remember that?) terrorists came from there. YOU could’ve called the Nazis “freedom fighters” also.
The lack of ability to discern good from evil is a huge problem today.
Part of the problem is this non-judgmental B.S. that is flaoting around.
Many of us just do not believe that there is such a thing as evil.
This is a problem.
I know the whole story.
At the time, the Soviet Union was the greater threat to us.
We often ally ourselves to the bad to fight the worse.
We did it in WWII against the Nazis with the Soviet Union.
Well,may I suggest a different reading…first….
35Then Jesus asked them, “When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?”
“Nothing,” they answered.
36He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.”
38The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.”
“That is enough,” he replied.
That’s followed in Luke with the prayer on The Mount of Olives …then the arrest…
47While he was still speaking a crowd came up, and the man who was called Judas, one of the Twelve, was leading them. He approached Jesus to kiss him, 48but Jesus asked him, “Judas, are you betraying the Son of Man with a kiss?”
49When Jesus’ followers saw what was going to happen, they said, “Lord, should we strike with our swords?” 50And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear.
51But Jesus answered, “No more of this!” And he touched the man’s ear and healed him.
52Then Jesus said to the chief priests, the officers of the temple guard, and the elders, who had come for him, “Am I leading a rebellion, that you have come with swords and clubs? 53Every day I was with you in the temple courts, and you did not lay a hand on me. But this is your hour—when darkness reigns.”
Quite self-evident to me if you read the whole context…the gospel writer seems to be concerned that the reader understand…”and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.”
A spirit of fear seems to me to be underlying this. As if, after 9/11, we have to take everything into our own hands.
faithlessinfatima said, on April 25th, 2009 at 7:27 am
And there we have it….The Myth of Redemptive Violence…if anyone is interested,I posted this recently…it’s worth the read…
http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/content/cpt/article_060823wink.shtml
————–Oh, FiF, I have many websites I could post. Come on, man, you know we can post website for website.
fishon
This has to do with a duty to protect our fellow citizen.
We can cower in the corner and call it tolerance, or civility and let our neighbors be killed, or we can actively try and stop those that would murder us and our families.
The Christian thing to do is to protect the innocent.
Kim,
You may show up here so you can educate/ridicule those of us with a much less rigid conservative viewpoint, but by just condemning people and their ideas in that way, you lose any authority or influence to teach. Wise up.
———-Onlly replying to David’s and friends condemnation of others. But I suppose you miss NP’s condemnation by his writings and his cartoons.
fishon
Jesus knew that the disciples would be put upon after His death and He wanted them to be able to defend themselves.
That is how I read Luke 22:36.
That Peter cut off a soldiers ear and that Jesus healed it, has nothing to do (in my mind) with Jesus’ wanting the disciples to be able to continue their mission and be safe from those that would end thier mission sooner rather than later.
Ok Steve
You dont quite know the “whole” story. Now my point here is that we all own something in regards to how the world relates to each other. If we did a better job of addressing are own issues, we would have a better time relating to the rest of the world. This needs to happen on many levels because in reality(regardless if you believe in a second coming) this is the only world we know about for sure. So back to your earlier statements.
The truth is 15 of 18, 911 bombers came from Saudi Arabia. The main party of Saudi Arabia being the wahhabi sect. They practice the horrific set of Laws called Sharia. These are your present day Allies. I wonder why? Can you say OIL? I wonder why you have the bulk of your troops in Iraq when no bombers came from there. Can you say OIL? Please………………..
Steve..for clarification,I forgot to add….the context of the whole narrative suggests to me that Jesus is saying in effect…”get a sword,becuz without one,what is about to happen will not be fulfilled”…these details seem to be important to the gospel writers…as well.compare Matthew’s version of the story where the response suggests more non-violence…”"Put your sword back into its place; for all who take the sword will perish by the sword. “(26:52)
I know where they came from.
Thet trained at bases in Afghanistan.
Look, evil is all around us.
Either we fight it when it rears it’s ugly head…or we don’t.
What we shopuld be, and what this world ought to be is one thing.
What this world is and what we are (sinners) is the reality off it.
Because we are sinful we cannot get along as we would if we were not.
This IS reality. In the whole history of this earth there has never been a time of no war. We always have and we will always have wars.
I don’t care fior the Saudis at all. I am in favor of drilling in Alaska and everywhere else until the need for oil is no longer.
I didn’t bow down and kiss the Saudi King’s ring .
Fishon…have you read the essay?
FiF,
I can see where one could read it that way, but that is not how I see it.
I see it that Jesus told them to put their swords away for that was the appointed time of His arrest and nothing was going to prevent that, like an all out battle with the authorities.
i totally expect you guys to talk among yourselves about how much of a sissyfied pinkass liberal commie i am or something, and i acknowledge i have never been under the threat of death, nor my loved ones, by a terrorist. but i would hope, sincerely, that i would not betray my faith in that hour.
————No, David, I don’t think of you that way. The only difference may be that I have thought out what I would do in certain circumstances, and you have yet to make that determination.
————As far as not betraying your faith in that hour, don’t you think that Jesus calls you to protect your family and friends? Or do you really believe that Jesus calls on his brothers and sisters to stand by when they can do something and allow their family and friends to die? To take a life to protect your family will mean someone dies, but to take NO action also means YOU have allowed dead, too.
A question, David. Hypothical all-be-it; however, very possible.
President Obama finds out that the top terrorist planner for Foreign activities has been captured. Paperwork has been found that verifies that an attack on a US city is eminent. Time is running out. He will not talk. Many things are tried in the short period of time before the expected blow-up. So——–does Obama order the interrogators to do anything, including torture, to get the needed info to save an American city?
That is not a far-out question is this day and age.
fishon
Onward Christian Soldiers…literally
What would have happened in WWII if all the Christians in the allied countires refused to fight?
We would have lost the war and today’s world would be a Fascist concentration camp.
faithlessinfatima said, on April 25th, 2009 at 10:03 am
Let’s not forget the legacy of a Martin Luther King and his mentor Gandhi….and who was Gandhi’s influence?
—————-My goodness, FiF, think a minute. King and Gandhi would have lasted but a few short days in Mao’s China and Pol Pots Cambodia. I wonder how many King’s and Gandhi’s Stalin extermenated?
fishon
need i remind anybody that both King and Gandhi were murdered? this is the way of peace, apparently.
Jesus, too.
When goodness and peace show up in this world, they can expect to take a beating.
okay steve, but this is a point to consider. isn’t it? one says “peace at all costs” and you say no people will die. but when i say peace-makers and -keepers die, you agree that this is the way it is.
nakedpastor said, on April 25th, 2009 at 10:29 am
steve: when jesus said to turn the other cheek (when someone violently attacks you) or to give more (when they violate you and your possessions), or to pray for your enemies (those who oppose you and try to destroy you), what do you think he meant? when someone bumps into you on the subway, or accidentally takes two bites of your chocolate bar instead of one, or someone who decides they don’t like you today because you hurt their feelings? what is it? is it all about scale for you? if jesus was just talking to individuals and not nations, then who’s accountable?
2 thoughts/questions———Last week a 42 yr. old lady was sitting in her house–suddenly a shotgun blast blew open her back door–the attacker comes at her. YOUR CALL NOW, David. Does she turn the other cheek???????? I dead serious.
You and your family are watching home movies—suddenly a crazed drug adict busts into your home with a .32 auto. Sitting beside you is your shotgun. Who do you choose to die——-sorry, you have a choice, that is the way things are sometimes. No way out of it–your call–who do you choose—family or the druggy?
Oh, by the way–the 42 yr. old lady did NOT turn the other cheek. 3 rounds of .40 into the perp. WAS SHE WRONG biblically?
fishon
Sin, death, and the devil are the ways of this world. There is no avoiding them.
Do nothing and many people will die. Fight and many will die, but a lot less than if you did nothing. Many will be saved. And those saved will have their freedom (as much as possible).
We’re all going to die, anyway. I say why not do what we can to keep evil at bay as much as possible, for as long as possible, for as many as possible.
Isn’t the committment of a Gandhi/MLK(paid for by their life) to non-violence the reason we call their efforts remarkable and heroic or shld we take up arms to crush the evil that they fought against. I don’t think that anyone here who argues for non-violences believes that it doesn’t have limitations,apparently Gandhi had similiar thots when asked about the Nazis.
Fishon…was she wrong?…No….just a bad shot
FiF,
I think you are absolutely right. We ought do all we can to avoid violence. Sometimes there is just no other way.
I think it is important to know who your enemy is and at what point negotiation or non-violent means become futile.
yes fif. the issues are complex. even churchill was involved with the rise of pre-nazism in germany before it was recognized for what it really was. the west was involved with the rise of middle-eastern vengeance before it was personally felt on home turf. like when some point the finger at mexico and blame them for the drug problem, and mexico points the finger back and says we created the need. i wonder on the last day if we will all stand together and on one side will be hitler, obviously responsible for the death of millions. then on the other side would be the philosophers, christians, churches, nations and politicians he rallied and who endorsed his initial efforts before it was too late to realize the full ramification of their support.
faithlessinfatima said, on April 25th, 2009 at 11:46 am
Fishon…have you read the essay?
——–nope
Figures !
nakedpastor said, on April 25th, 2009 at 12:06 pm
need i remind anybody that both King and Gandhi were murdered? this is the way of peace, apparently.
————Exactly—and the killing goes on. And the fact is, it is not going to stop. And that is reality.
fishon
faithlessinfatima said, on April 25th, 2009 at 12:26 pm
Fishon…was she wrong?…No….just a bad shot
————Bad shot or not, she saved her own life.
Answer the question———–should she have turned the other cheek. I wait for your and David’s answer.
————Oh, by the way, you try sitting in your easy chair and have the peace and quiet of your life interupted by a shotgun blast at your back door and see what a good shot you will be. Bad shot——I suppose you think she should be on par to the snipers that took the head shots?
fishon
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/43601852.html
An 84 year old man may have just saved the future life, or lives of more victims from two attackers.
This is where trying to save yourself can help to save others.
Fishon…I agree…but,the point of their sacrifice is that they didn’t have a gun in their hand,if they did,wd they not be hypocrites?
fif: in fact, king refused to carry a weapon even under pressure from some of his people.
fishon: haven’t i already answered your question? i would rather not have a gun by my side. i would rather live by a principle that wouldn’t require a gun. what more do you need?
Fishon…no guns in my house,so maybe I cd throw my channel changer
I think I would rather be killed than to lose my channel changer…
hehe.
oh man i love you guys.
faithlessinfatima said, on April 25th, 2009 at 12:44 pm
Fishon…I agree…but,the point of their sacrifice is that they didn’t have a gun in their hand,if they did,wd they not be hypocrites?
——–Yes, they would have been hypocrites if they said one thing and did another. But they didn’t. They were men who lived out what they believed.
I did some googling to find out if King’s bodyguards were armed. No answer that I could find.
So, FiF, based on your arguement for non-violence—-what is your take on Obama having armed body guards who will kill in an instant to save his life? Very same principle that you and David are arguing for?
fishon
nakedpastor said, on April 25th, 2009 at 12:47 pm
fif: in fact, king refused to carry a weapon even under pressure from some of his people.
fishon: haven’t i already answered your question? i would rather not have a gun by my side. i would rather live by a principle that wouldn’t require a gun. what more do you need?
————–Simple—would you kill another human being to save your family? That is not a really big hypothetical—people have to make that decision every day.
fishon
nakedpastor said, on April 25th, 2009 at 12:47 pm
fif: in fact, king refused to carry a weapon even under pressure from some of his people.
——-David–King applied for a cwp, but was denied by the State of Alabama.
fishon
Well, guys, we have been round the pole today, maybe more than once.
Time to finish my sermon.
See you all later.
MAKE IT A GREAT DAY.
fishon
That was fun!
Off to a funeral (father of a friend).
Ciao!
– steve m.
Fishon…I think you misunderstand my position…my original point was that non-violence as taught by Jesus and practiced by those we call martyrs, Christian or otherwise is the calling and duty for those who want to break the myth of redemptive violence… or in other words, ‘might always makes right’. Where and how that is pursued and practiced, successfully or not is the decision of individuals as they confront injustice. To have died in the pursuit of this ideal is not to have failed…otherwise we wd consider their efforts to be a waste of time and energy. The world is full of armed resistors,nothing new there…an unarmed resistor,that’s a different thing. The challenge is to pick up where they stopped, if we cd possibly find the courage…as Gandhi said,”An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind”.Somebody has to break the cycle.
Dream on.
Apparently,some did and looked what happened in yr country…a black man becomes President.
fishon: his application was in the early days before he came to a more definitive conclusion about total non-violence. although, in the latter days, he wondered if anything could be accomplished without violence. he felt the human race was sick beyond repair sometimes.
fishon and Steve
Just curious, if people are “saved” then what does it matter if they are murdered? Honestly, if this world is sinful and the important one is the next one, then what difference does it make?
David, without engaging the responses…. thank you for what you wrote. I agree, and believe it to be truthful and faithful.
That was a weird argument..
I just want to say that as a member of the “christian right”, I am against the war and for abstinence. Birth control shouldn’t be necessary, but condoms are better than abortions.
I think that torture could probably be worse, but it’s not biblical. Even in the old testament you needed something like two witnesses for a trial and you only killed after an act. Plus half the people they’re interrogating probly have no idea. The should only torture if they’re sure the person is a terrorist (ie have proof), and only as a last resort, if they know the person is involved.
TfT – many Christians die a martyr’s death, but they should protect their family. Plus – what if someone isn’t saved? Plus – murder is a sin – we are made in God’s image.
thanks cec.
many Christians die a martyr’s death,(Semety)
Man does this sound awfully familiar.
really? I suppose they’re only martyrs if they die for their faith. Either way, it means they can’t take care of any responsibilities. But I guess, if they really are saved, then yes for them personally being murdered wouldn’t be that bad.
I didn’t mean it to sound like all christians are martyrs – I guess I was just thinking that would be the main reason someone specifically christian would be murdered.
TitforTat said, on April 25th, 2009 at 3:07 pm
fishon and Steve
Just curious, if people are “saved” then what does it matter if they are murdered?
———–That is about the stupidest question I seen here in some time.
fishon
Fishon,
Rats! You beat me to the punch!
How stupid if you are saved and eternal what does it matter if you are murdered? Thats a fair question. Unless of course there is some meaning to how we treat each other here.
TfT,
I think you are on to something.
It does matter how we treat each other here.
Life is a gift and is precious.
When it is finally ripped away from us, we will all be raised again (all of us)…to judgement. Then the Lord will decide our eternal destiny.
Oopss. and if there is then we need to get back to this torture thingie were discussing.
Criminals are treated differently than innocents. They must incur punishment and they must be held accountable and they must release info. on current deeds and plans to injur, maim, or kill others.
We have a duty to protect our own from these types of people. That IS our duty.
Steve: Your president says that you will not use torture anymore.
Criminals are treated differently than innocents(Steve)
But by your own words, you are a sinner, so how innocent are you? And if you look deep in your heart and look at your actions, do you think you may own some of what this world offers you? You seem to want your cake and eat it too, but sorry it doesnt work that way. Especially if you are a sinner.
NP,
If we can’t obtain info. from enemy combatants than many more innocent people will die.
The U.S. President can have that blood on his hands.
TfT,
We’re all sinners. But there are 2 Kingdoms…Heaven and Earth.
Down here, there is a price to be paid for sin.
Up there, He can forgive it all and grant salvation to whomever He pleases.
steve: you stand by your nation when it comes to torturing people and feel you will stand before God and be exonerated; but should your nation stand before God for not torturing you feel you deserve exoneration?
Down here, there is a price to be paid for sin.
Up there, He can forgive it all and grant salvation to whomever He pleases.(Steve)
Ok steve, youve made yourself very clear now. You reminded me of an old saying.
“When someone shows you who they are, believe them”
I believe you.
NP,
You bet I stand by my nation as it gets info from murderers trying to murder more innocents.
More airplanes would have flown into buildings in L.A. (not far from my family) were it not for info. obtained from a high level terrorist by waterboarding.
You would stand by…and do nothing. And INNOCENT people would die.
I would not stand by.
TfT,
Don’t believe me. Believe the BIble.
NP,
Since you are big on not torturing to save the lives of who knows how many because it is sin——-I take it that you would not have lied to the Nazis about the whereabouts of a bunch of Jews that you knew where they were at, because it is sin to lie?
The principle is the same.
fishon
Non violence is the notion of the NT – it is the path taught by Jesus beyond question. Steve’s one scripture he pulls out from Luke is a single passage in 27 books and letters – and I think FIF is right about it -why? If this was the standard Jesus left them (take up the sword and defend those around u) how come in Acts they don’t follow such a path? Paul should of been meting out punishment – not evangelism to Roman guards. Then we have Peter and others being killed – with no scripture to back up the idea of ‘justice by the sword’ – thye preferred to be martyrs over murderers.
However, I know this is a complex issue – defending yourself. This is my take:
(a) The standard set is non-violence – this is the path of Jesus – this is also his teachings to his desciples.
(b) Even with that teaching – we know the best basis to follow is non-violence – however – at times – we need to defend people for the sake of their safety – although this is not the standard – we admit this is our deviation from the standard for justifiable reasons (of the which we must present for each time we do this). Is that wrong? Depends on one’s motive.
(c) Can a Christian support torture? No. If so, scripture to back that point would help – as it stands – no one has presented a single piece of proof from within the life of Jesus (or Paul) that could so much as defend that position…so it won’t neccesarily hold water in God’s court (if he goes by judicial decisions like that – and I look at God’s court as a court).
(d) The gov’t can do whatever it wants – regardless of how we view it – we are not of that kingdom anyways – we are of God’s kingdom and not ‘of this world’. Should we loosen our morals for the sake of support of our gov’t? No. I see no reason to support ideas on torture we cannot find one iota of proof to support from a NT standpoint. A deviation from that standard is in ‘us’ – not in the scriptures.
(e) It is true the world contains a lot of ‘evil’ – but to think more ‘repayment for that evil’ will solve the situation is not measuring the situation very well. Evil for evil will not end any cycles of violence anytime soon – what ends scenarios like that is actually the path of non-violence – including measures of forgiveness, mercy, understanding, diplomacy, and peace. Violence is a result of anger – we need to be addressing the real issue which are just that – anger being fueld over and over…and gitmo did not make that sitaution any smoother.
The problem it seems to me is the disconnect between action and consequence going on in many of the convo’s. People acting as if non-violence is not an answer – but I am not saying we don’t get involved – let’s not pass into the idea of how much violence we will use – because that’s dangerous ‘evil’ territory – allow a little in and soon we are talking about how much gunshots fired into a person is ‘normal’? The standard for the use of violence is quite vague don’t ya think? As compared to non-violence as the standard – we are sure what is being asked of us (no amount of violence is neccesarily the starting point).
I know for a fact the way of Jesus does work – I use it all the time – a standard of peacemaking and not violence. I have broken up around 30 fights in the last 8 years – in some fairly intense situations – including weapons…what should be a good Christian ethic in scenario of violence. Always should start with peace – making things right – stepping in to break up violent acts and pursuing ways to not see people hurt. Does it always work – 30 of 30 times I stepped in to stop or prevent something – it worked. Now maybe the next time I get stabbed or something – I don’t know – but at least I know I hold a standard that does work – tried, tested, and results.
I hear talk of killing home invaders – why is this the only answer? Some shots into the villian as the just response? Why is the worst level of violence going to be the obvious answer to an attack on your family? I almost have to think some of you have never been in these situations or don’t know people that have perpetrated them. I keep a bat by my bed in case of such scenarios (to protect my wife and I) – but is my thought of killing the perp? No. Hurt him, stop him, scare him, or whatever – but death is far from my idea of ‘keeping my family safe’…because I would consider the death of the home invader as murder – but that’s my standard…I don’t seek death for that person – just boundaries be set.
I think the convo has delved into Christian people sitting too close to violence and too far from their personal admission they would do something of pressured to ‘help someone’. Always seek peace – set a standard becoming of a Christian – be the change that is not there. Know that violence may happen – but it is our personal deviation our known standard – and in the end – we will find we are non-violent almost 10 times out of 10.
My father was a career police officer in a small town, beginning about 1950 as a motorcycle cop and retiring as chief almost 25 years later. I am a former police officer/detective (in a city of 150,000), now a pastor. From this perspective, I can tell you that there are a lot of interrogation “techniques” which have been used in the past half-century plus, many of which are illegal now, and have been since the 1960s and 70s. I remember older officers telling me that they once had a “lie detector chair,” which was nothing but a heavy wooden chair with metal strips attached to a relatively low amperage-high voltage source; and every time they asked a suspect a question about a crime which he denied, they shocked him. There were no electrodes attached to the man’s genitals, but he felt a heavy shock nonetheless in the region of his buttocks and thighs. And if he lost control of his bladder in the process, it was all the more effective. Guess what? They got quite a few confessions; and if their detective work was good going into the interrogation, many of those confessions were probably true. And that is just one circa 1950 “technique.” There were others.
I was not a Christian when I was in law enforcement, but by then, there were Supreme Court rulings on what was and what was not a legally acceptable proceedure. Looking back from my Christian perspective, I say thanks be to God that I never shocked, beat, whipped, or otherwise abused a suspect in the course of an interrogation–and I took confessions on virtually everything from simple thefts to rape, child molestation, and murder.
My point is that a good police interrogator can get a confession many times without recourse to techniques which would be illegal under Supreme Court rulings, or for that matter, considered torture internationally. Is a terrorist harder to get a confession from than a criminal? I could speculate, but having never dealt with terrorists, it would be strictly speculation. I can tell you that many career criminals have sociopathic tendencies, and few of them want to get caught or confess.
Has some information came of “harsh techniques” which saved lives? Possibly, although I would suggest that “24″ is just a television show which has little connection to reality. And in the final analysis, as a Christian, I fail to see how any Christian could justify torture (by whatever name) simply because it is sometimes effective. We are just better than that–or at least we are supposed to be.
I would even go so far as to say that any conservative evangelical who approves waterboarding or similar measures does so because he/she is more conservative than Christian. And I say that from the perspective of a conservative evangelical Christian.
In World War II, allied POW’s were often abused and interrogated harshly at the hands of the Gestapo. My parents had a friend whose fingers were crushed by a guard at a POW camp–over an escape attempt. By contrast, the biggest problem at Allied POW camps (by and large) was getting the German & Italian prisoners to leave when the war was over. As a teenager, I knew a German who came to the US as a POW, and when the war was over, not only did he stay, but got his wife over here too. They remained until he retired in the mid-1960s, then moved back to Germany. We didn’t treat German, Italian, or Japanese prisoners “tit-for-tat.” We were better than that. And today, Germany, Italy, and Japan are our allies. In 50 years, will we be able to say that about Iraq?
When I go to bed at night, I’m not visited by the “ghosts” of people I abused, neither do I have to worry about standing before the judgment seat of God to answer for that. I have my sins certainly, but that is not among them. I wonder: can those who waterboard and otherwise “harshly interrogate” be able to say that?
We can be better than that again.
I donlt like to do “hit-and-run” comments, bu I will be out hiking next week. You won’t hear from me again in this thread, but I felt I just HAD to comment.
John Fariss
[...] April 26, 2009 at 5:03 pm (Uncategorized) Comment taken from NP’s blog ‘the torture memo’s & Int’l accountability’ [...]
Wise words John – thanks for them!
This article couldnt have been more better timed.
Eric Margolis…. Sun Media. April 26
Nations that use torture disgrace themselves. Armed forces and police that torture inevitably become brutalized and corrupted. “Limited” use of torture quickly becomes generalized. Information obtained by torture is mostly unreliable.
I learned these maxims observing or covering dirty “pacification” wars, from Algeria to Indochina, Central and South America, southern Africa, the Mideast, Afghanistan, and Kashmir.
All this historical evidence notwithstanding, the Bush administration encouraged torture of anti-American militants (a.k.a. terrorists) after the 9/11 attacks. The full story has not been revealed, but what we know so far is revolting and shameful.
Many Americans want the Bush administration officials who employed and sanctioned torture to face justice. President Barack Obama hinted the attorney general might investigate this whole ugly business.
Republicans, who have become America’s champions of war and torture, are fiercely resisting any investigation and lauding torture’s benefits. So too are some senior intelligence officials.
Torture is a crime under U.S. law. It is a crime under the Third Geneva Convention, and the UN’s anti-torture convention, both of which the U.S. signed. Kidnapping and moving suspects to be tortured in third countries is a crime. Torture violates core American values.
In 1945, the U.S. hanged Japanese officers for war crimes for inflicting “water-boarding” (near drowning) on U.S. prisoners — exactly what the CIA inflicted on its Muslim captives.
FBI agents rightly refused to participate in the torture of al-Qaida suspects, warning it violated U.S. law and could make them subject to future prosecution.
Republicans and even Obama’s intelligence chief, Admiral Dennis Blair, claim some useful information was obtained by torture. That depends on what you call useful. al-Qaida is still in business. Osama bin Laden remains at large. Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan became monstrous fiascos costing $1 trillion. Torture did not protect America from a second major attack. The 9/11 tragedy was a one-off event, and al-Qaida has only a handful of extremists. Administration claims about dirty bombs and germs were lies.
SIX TIMES DAILY
The CIA’s “useful” torture information came from two suspects: Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was tortured by near drowning 183 times — six times daily for a month; and Abu Zubaydah, 83 times in August 2003.
Give me Dick Cheney, a power drill (a favourite “investigative” tool of America’s Iraqi Shia allies) and 30 minutes and I’ll have him admit he’s Osama bin Laden.
A U.S. Senate report just revealed that after the Bush administration could not find the links it claimed between al-Qaida and Saddam Hussein, it tried, in best Soviet style, to torture an admission of these non-existent links from its captives.
The Senate reported CIA and Pentagon torture techniques were adopted from torture methods North Korea used in the 1950s to compel American prisoners to admit to lies about germ warfare.
In fact, North Korea learned its torture techniques from Soviet KGB instructors. KGB’s favourite tortures in the 1930s and ’40s were merciless beatings, confinement in refrigerated cells, week-long sleep deprivation and endless interrogations. The CIA and U.S. military copied these but added contorted positions and nakedness and humiliation, techniques reportedly copied from Israeli interrogators who used them to blackmail Palestinian prisoners into becoming informers. Hence all the naked photos from Abu Ghraib prison.
SOPHISTIC LEGAL BRIEFS
Torture was authorized by President George W. Bush, VP Dick Cheney, secretaries Don Rumsfeld and Condoleezza Rice. Four lickspittle lawyers and two bootlicking attorneys general provided sophistic legal briefs sanctioning torture. All should face an independent judicial commission.
Now, Obama claims he won’t prosecute the torturers because they were following proper legal advice and orders. So did Nazi officials who killed millions. Nazi lawyers legally dismembered Germany’s Weimar democracy and imposed Nazi dictatorship in only two months after the “terrorist attack” on the Reichstag in Feb. 1933.
When I served in the U.S. Army I was taught that any illegal order, even from the president, must be refused.
Have we learned nothing from the 1940s? Show the world America upholds the law and rejects these foul violations of human rights and decency.
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+ What are these?
I think I have to agree that torture isn’t biblical. There’s repayment, but nothing preemptive really in the bible. But the revenge can be torture, that’s why there’s Hell. Even though, since the old testament has a lot of history, there’s a lot of people doing immoral acts, so it’s hard to tell what is or isn’t condoned.
Our morals come from God, so we have no standard to judge Him by. If he said torture was right, than we’d have to agree. But if there’s nothing said about it, we have to use the bible to come to the best conclusion and we can’t tell who’s right on this issue.
But without God, nothing is ultimately wrong.
Tft: it’s a silly question, because it’s pointless, murder is still wrong, even if the victim benefits in the end. And of course it has to do with how you live, if you follow God, it’s because you’re saved. Really though, all life is meaningless before death, except to answer where you will go after.
I’m not sure sleep deprivation or interragation counts as torture. It’s not violent at least.
All life is not meaningless before death. If that was the case, why would God have bothered to create beauty, emotion, the wonders of the planet? Life here and now, even though disfigured by us, still has incredible potential, wonder and meaning.
“I’m not sure sleep deprivation or interragation counts as torture. It’s not violent at least” (Semety)
You’re kidding right?
Sleep deprivation – do some studies on it – long periods of sleep deprivation can have people wishing to kill themselves – nevermind the hallucinations.
Depriving a guy a piece of Aunt Martha’s chocolate cake coulbe be considered torture also.
That these guys maim innocent kids and rip people’s faces off with piano wire and fly planes into buildings…well…we can’t deprive them of a few zzzzzzzzzzz’s to see where the bombs are hidden, now can we?
Ok, we ALL now know where you pro-torture people stand. We get it. We really do. You are entitled to your views and your opinions. There are people on here who believe that torture is evil and agianst the law. We have a right to our views and opinions. We have all expressed our views ad nauseum.
Let’s recognize a couple things:
1. LET’S BE CLEAR ON ONE THING, THOSE OPINIONS DO NOT MEAN A HILL OF BEANS BECAUSE OUR GOVERNMENT SIGNED ONTO AND SAID IT DOES NOT TORTURE! EVEN BEFORE BUSHIE AND CO. BROKE THE LAW, WHICH THEY DID BREAK THE LAW!
2. Since no one’s mind looks to be changed, let’s move on to another topic.
So, let’s stop this insane argument. It’s tiring going around in circles and hearing the same arguments for and against torture.
G-D Bless,
EP
pah, I’ve been sleep deprived. Yeah you start to hallucinate, but it might make them easier to ask questions of. I don’t think they should be tortured, esecially if it’s illegal. We do have to give way to civil authority. I’m just curious what they’d do instead of torture? The can still interrogate suspects right? They can’t just let them off if they have information..
steve: you seem to take it very lightly how easy it is to dehumanize someone.
NP,
I take nothing very lightly (I often wish I could).
It is a messy world. When one decides to align themselves with murderers one sometimes has to pay a price.
That free people would want to stay free and keep their loved ones safe and sound in the face of murderers plots, overrides a terrorist’s humanity.
Besides, there are degrees to what we are speaking about.
And that is the real issue, Steve, that we can’t really get to in this type of forum.
The degrees within the issues.
99.99 % will have a total different take on the issue of torture when it becomes personal.
Hey, say a pray for me as I travel to the Dr. to see why my the inside of my nose is being eating up. It isn’t good no matter what, but some things worse than others.
I might be looking like NP did a few months ago——-oh those eyes so colorful.
jerry [fishon]
Fishon,
Good thoughts (as always) Jerry.
I will pray that your doctor can figure out the problem and find a way to get you back to normal.
– Steve
These are toughs issues to be sure. I abhor violence but, to be honest, I don’t know what I’m capable of in defense of those I love. I sure know that I’m capable of hatred.
I do know that I appreciate that there are people who do risk life and limb to defend those who cannot. But, other than in old westerns, it’s awfully hard telling the good guys from the bad guys. To some extent of course, we all fall into both categories. But when is it time to step in when people are being exterminated?
The problem is that we don’t know the entire picture and probably never will. We don’t know the agendas held by those in power; genocides have occurred with much less resulting police/army action. It’s hard not to become cynical when superpowers only seem to get involved when it becomes a matter of economics.
Fishon…hope all is well and you find find grace if life turns bitter.
fishon: i would like to ditto fif. blessings bro.
jus’ thinkin’…it cd be said that torture is pre-emptive revenge
This short article is a must read:
http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/krauthammer050109.php3