I have to share a story of something that happened to me about 10 years ago. I’m going to extract it straight from my journal entry at that time:
Lisa and I met some seminary friends in Bangor for a little holiday. We were having a wonderful time. We drank beer, ate snacks, listened to good music, talked, and laughed. Everything friends should do. They talked about their daughter’s struggles. He would say things like, “She’s very spiritual, but she doesn’t have a religious bone in her body! She can smell a fake a mile away and will not go anywhere near one!” She says that the way the church is right now, they might as well be speaking Latin because they talk a language that isn’t heard anywhere else. I fell in love with her from a distance. It pointed me back to that same issue I’m passionate about… that I strongly desire we become a community that is like Jesus and has no religiosity about it.
As the women were getting ready for us to go out to a restaurant, I picked up my friend’s book by Thomas Moore, Care of the Soul. I cracked it open to this page and read:
Oscar Wilde’s letter from prison know as ‘De Profundis’, ‘from the depths’, is an extraordinary example of Romantic theology, and in it he discloses the place of shadow in the image of Jesus:
‘The world had always loved the saint as being the nearest possible approach to the perfection of God. Christ, through some divine instinct in him, seems to have always loved the sinner as being the nearest possible approach to the perfection of man. His primary desire was not to reform people any more than his desire was to relieve suffering… But in a manner not yet understood of the world he regarded sin and suffering as being in themselves beautiful holy things and modes of perfection’.
The fact that this was written by a persecuted gay man deeply impressed me, especially after what happened after that: The four of us went out and ate supper at a nice restaurant. We decided to talk theology. My friend asked: “What does your church feel or do about gays?” After a long and rather heated discussion, I realized my theology was inconsistent and therefore false. I took the usual and safe tactic, “Hate the sin; love the sinner!” But he questioned its escapist hypocrisy. If we say we are sinners, then we can’t separate the sin from the sinner, etc.. They have gay friends and love them. He insisted that we can’t judge people, especially when they didn’t choose their orientations. I always search for the bottom line, which I feel must always be God’s love and grace. So I said, “Unconditional love, but with the understanding that all who draw near to the Lord are changed.” “As long as,” he responded, “you don’t require them to change in that one particular area!” It was a challenging discussion. It left my head and my theology reeling. I felt a transformation going on in my mind. Honestly, I could feel my brain changing in a profound way.
When we returned to the motel we decided to take some drinks in travel mugs down to the hot tub. The four of us were alone for a few minutes. Then three men came in and joined us. We introduced ourselves. They asked what we did. When they discovered I was a pastor, they immediately said that they were gay. I absolutely knew that the grace had a score to settle with me that very night. They told their story of how their gayness got them kicked out of a church, squeezed from their jobs, and mercilessly persecuted in their hometown so that they couldn’t even get furnace oil delivered to their home. One of them was so fearful that he stayed in the pool and wouldn’t join us. Another was rather quiet. But one was very wounded and had serious and heart-breaking questions, directed straight at me. With tears of sorrow and anger, he said he wishes he could’ve made a choice just to avoid all this persecution, but he couldn’t! With great frustration he explained all the ways he tried to change. He said he loves God and tries to follow Jesus just like anyone else might. But all he has experienced at the hands of his brothers and sisters and society as a whole is hatred and hardship. No one… not one… will walk with him or his friends.
This went on for over an hour. Their story was disturbing and true. After we told him we were just talking about this issue at supper, he exclaimed, “This is fate! We all needed this, didn’t we!” When we went back to the room, I went outside and smoked a nice cigar. All I could do was meditate about all this. I thought of the woman who came to Jesus, only to be rejected by him. But she fought for a place at his table, and her tenacity caused her wish to be granted. These gays are like that. And it reminded me of when Barnabas went to Antioch because it was rumored, of all things, that the Spirit was at work there among the heathen. After he observed the community for a while, he concluded that they had experienced God’s grace, for he was a man of faith. I saw God’s grace in these guys. I didn’t see it in their persecutors, or in my own attitude just hours before at supper. My mind, in a day, had changed. I was a different pastor now.
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David Hayward is a pastor artistically stripping to the essential.
The woman who came to Jesus realized that she was a “dog”, unworthy of Him.
Many (not all, mind you) gays come with an attitude of worthiness. Not recognizing their sin.
I think that there is a big difference.
I do think that is all that Jesus wants from sinners (the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector)
We can go ropund and round about whether or not homosexuality is a sin.
The bIble says so in no unceratin terms. In Romans and in the commandment to not commit audultery. The bible also desribes marriage as between the opposite sexes.
Steve: If we take the literal reading, Jesus called her a dog, or at least grouped her in that category.
And the gay man I was talking with in the hot-tub: there were tears of grief, years of trying to change, hating his condition, begging for help, loving God in the face of incredible opposition, trying to follow Jesus, looking for fellowship and community support. What else does repentance look like?
Good story David.
De Profundis was a very very long love letter. Have you read it? I read it a year or so ago. I still have it, I remember liking it. he was finally sad.
“What else does repentance look like?”
That. If that much. Sometimes it’s just an inward battle. You know.
What problem would I have with a man like that? None.
So, for those who feel he didn’t need to seek repentance (it didn’t hurt), and for those who felt he did (it helped), he’s okay.
I have to say it is refreshing to find such an open minded pastor!
I have become so bored of the self-righteous attitudes found in a large majority of organized religions. It is precisely this attitude that drives many good people (and young people) out of the church. I fell in love with Christianity because I thought it was a religion about love. What ever happened to that? People need to use religion to better their own and others’ lives – not to discriminate, persecute or judge people. In other words; why spend your energy going out of your way to make others unhappy. I don’t think this is what Jesus would do…
This is a beautiful story and i appreciate you sharing it. i love the Oscar Wilde quote above in your post. It is not saintliness and perfection Jesus looks for or expects because he cannot work through those things. Instead, as Wilde states, ‘in a manner not yet understood of the world he regarded sin and suffering as being in themselves beautiful holy things and modes of perfection’. Jesus thrives on our sufferings and sine because he meets us in those places to relieve and change us. Rather than looking at suffering and sin as horrible and detestable things, we can celebrate that Jesus is ready and willing to meet us in the midst of them.
A favorite pastor of mine once spoke about the woman that Jesus essentially called a dog. His take on it was that, in the final analysis, Jesus basically said out loud what the disciples were already thinking. In other words, he shone the spotlight on some ugly thoughts rather than pretend they don’t exist, forcing the disciples to have a good hard look at themselves. It’s so much easier to dismiss sins that aren’t seen as opposed to those that are, I suppose. That’s probably why the Pharisees had such an easy time of pointing fingers.
We easily see the adulterers, the prostitutes, the thieves, the etc., etc., etc. What we don’t see as easily is the sense of superiority felt by the finger pointer. Even after repentance, we still sin; even when we’re trying not to. Just check out Paul. Thankfully, Jesus didn’t wait until we got a handle on the sinning thing before doing what He did for us. Otherwise, He’d still be waiting.
I’m thankful for the day you became a different pastor. My life is forever changed because of it. Had you and your wife not opened your lives to me and accepted me at the time you did… I would have left the church completely… I had no where else to turn.
No one knows your walk unless they have truly walked in your shoes. You were there for me when the church rejected me. You loved and encouraged me and showed me Christ’s heart for me.
I’m forever grateful for your evening in the hot tub… for your imprint in my life as my Pastor and my friend.
So, Oscar Wilde wrote: But in a manner not yet understood of the world he regarded sin and suffering as being in themselves beautiful holy things and modes of perfection’, did he!!!!
——-The apostle Paul wrote:::”Futhermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not be done.”
fishon
Oh, Fishon.
What stephy?
You agree with Wilde that Christ “regarded sin…as…beautiful holy things…”?
fishon
Sometimes the adjectives get more attention than the nouns in our language. That is unfortunate. I have friends. Whether they are gay or not is hardly the point. That they are sinners is a given (and me as well). Jesus was a friend of sinners. I definitely fall on the receiving end of that sentence and hopefully, can find myself identifying with the subject as well.
De Profundis is a tough read. But there is some cool stuff in there, I didn’t agree with every conclusion that Wilde came to, but the introspective process he goes through, and he passion with which he writes is really challenging.
I am inexplicably crying at your story David. I won’t read the comments because it will just fry my mind. I’ve had but a fraction of that rejection from the church for 2 different reasons and I am so much more willing to say fuck it all and leave then those men you met. When I hear stories like that I realise how important it is to hold on and all of us walk beside each other.
I just realised though that the sense of anger, rage, frustration and stubbornness that people see in gays or others rejected by the church is misunderstood as a rebellious spirit or a refusal to submit to God instead of the byproduct of deep deep pain that it is.
Thanks for sharing yet again
great story. Thx.
Savvy, you are soooo very right. You said, “I just realised though that the sense of anger, rage, frustration and stubbornness that people see in gays or others rejected by the church is misunderstood as a rebellious spirit or a refusal to submit to God instead of the byproduct of deep deep pain that it is.”
oh gosh is that true. The byproducts of my deep deep pain, hurt and rejection were many and still they are being stripped away as more and more healing comes deep into my heart and spirit.
I think that the key ,among other things,to understanding the opinions and positions of others is imagination.Try to imagine the Muslim who has lost their whole family to ‘collateral damage’,the gay who has lost their family to rejection…let’s lay down our obstinate doctrines that are so quick to offer ‘the only solution that WE can live with’and walk in their shoes,feel their pain and realize that our medicine is not a ‘one size fits all’….that LOVE is larger than our narrow theologies
Yes FiF. The main theme of that story… or what I intended it to be… is that somehow I felt forced to allow what was before my very eyes to change my theology, including how I read scripture. Isn’t this the meaning of Jesus, after all? The meaning of the Jesus story is that he broke the law to show that the new law was love, which is completely beyond legislation. This was such an event for me where I knew, absolutely, that love demanded I break the law… my law that I thought was God’s.
thank you david. this is wonderful.
the church has traditionally done so much more harm than good to those whose orientation differs from the perceived norm. there is so much ill found and arrogant certainty that some christians would rather display than simple love when it comes to this subject. i find it deeply upsetting and disturbing.
i did a a cartoon a year or two ago which said something like ‘love the sinner, hate the sin… judge them anyway.” sadly, this is another common attitude among christian… a sort of ‘coverall’ let out clause, giving us permission not to extend the grace and love we are actually required to.
once again, a beautifully honest post. i hope people who disagree will think on it rather than rush to respond with the same reposts that are sadly familiar and all too quick to judge.
as the commenter rightly says above… “LOVE is larger than our narrow theologies”… let’s walk in the shoes of others and be grateful for the grace we have received and extend it to others.
David…yr words make me think that every new frontier can become a place we need to leave…we seem to have a tendency to turn grace back into law
What I find most cool about your story, David, is that you let your heart be changed. We’re all better off when we can admit to others that we were wrong. That takes a lot of trust.
Too often we focus upon the depth of our repentance rather than the depth of Gods love in rescuing us all, I read recently that repentance is not as much about saying sorry and turning from sin as it is recognizing what it cost God to save us and that he was the one who took the initiative and not us.
In the story of the prodigal, the son fearfully heads back home, starving and mostly naked. He knows when he reaches his village, he must walk through the narrow village street where he will be mocked and taunted by the villagers for having squandered his inheritance. He must make it to his father to reason with him just to let him become a servant and so earn his way to repaying his debt to the family. Yet even when the son is at a far distance and before the son says a word, the father sees the son and runs to him. He kisses and hugs him.
It is only at this point that the son sees his father’s love for him. Now the son sees how he had broken his father’s heart. He sees how his father ran to him which in the Middle East is a shameful act. He sees how undeservedly he is being restored in love. Had the father not been willing to show a costly demonstration of unexpected love, the son would not know the father’s heart. And there would be no right-relationship.
We need to be careful that we are not being the Pharisees that the parable was directed towards as they questioned why Jesus was so comfortable in the company of lost sinners. It is easy for us to ostracize gays because we are definitely not like them but, whether they are sinners or not, we were and are no better in Gods sight ourselves.
Your choir is in good form today, David.
And God weeps at the sound of it.
fishon
Oh dear fishon… just because someone might partially agree with me on one issue, it doesn’t mean they are my choir, assembled to sing against you. That’s paranoia talking. Everyone sings a different song. And that’s beautiful, but to a different ear. Come on! Join in the cachophony, but with a generous heart!
David,
You misread my words. “And God weeps at the sound of it.”
No where do you see reference to me. “Paranoia,” not a wiff of it from here.
Generous heart. Ok, no more “rock throwing” from me this Easter Season.
fishon
No Fishon. God weeps at your words.
I dunno what’s with the gays in US, but I’m sure that the gays in Malaysia(Asia) is really trying their best to submit their sins without publicly telling everyone that they are gays. They choose not to have partners. They choose to be single. They choose to suffer. Well, I dunno about what will God to do them, but I’m sure, I’m moved by their effort to be Christ like and the faith that they have in God. Even better than me.
What disgust me most, is the behaviour that some of the gays have. Publicly trying to change the faith and understanding about Christ to non-believers and young believers, to revenge what the society did to them. Selfish people I would say. Rather than a sinner.
I hate gays as in the terms and the behaviour that comes with it, but i love them as a sinner, believer and a friend, not an enemy.
Thanks again David for the way you raise this topic – and connect it to the personal, relational level.
Some of your readers may be interested in viewing Tony Campolo’s take on “Love the Sinner, Hate the Sin” in the video clip posted on our btgproject.blogspot.com blog.
Thanks David for your vulnerable post. My convictions on this issue have flipped 100% over the past years. As Tony Campolo says in the video Wendy mentioned: it’s not ‘love the sinner, hate the sin’, but ‘love the sinner, hate your own sin’. The starting and ending point is love.
Mark…or in other words…Love everyone,but mind yr own business.
Wasn’t that ‘The Great Commission’…
“Go unto all the world, loving and minding your own business.” ???
Not sure about the world,but I for one feel like I’m being followed
FiF,
I think you’re right. You are.
We all are. He’s after us.
One of Barth’s severest criticisms of Luther was the danger that one become proud in one’s repentance. The danger is that repentance becomes the new law, the new effort, the new work. Barth’s searing critique of all humanity’s efforts, even the noblest like repentance, needs to be heard.
That is always a danger (because sin is our default position).
But we ought repent of that pride.
That’s why the sacraments are so important in Lutheran theology.
Here is an act of God, coming to us, from outside of us…putting an end to OUR efforts, OUR feelings, OUR sincerity…which is all tainted by sin.
In the bread and wine, the body and blood, God takes the reins and puts an end to all our pretentions.
I am not sure why the gay issue is really that much of an issue – it is only a stumbling block to those who want to remain blind – thus they continue to stumble over it. You will know if this issue is a stumbling block if it causes you to ’sin’ more…which I can say I have seen in some well meaning people when they tackle this issue – they move from blatant ignorance to vehement opposition – which comes with all types of behaviors I wouldn’t my child to portray in a schoolyard.
But thanks for the Story David – It’s great to hear how the events of your past have changed you into the person you are today…