It will be years before the mass graves are located and the alleged crimes are tried in the Supreme Court. In the meantime, one can just help a wounded brother or sister if given the opportunity, right? Can I give them a hand? Can I listen to them retell the trauma as many times as necessary? Can I give them shelter or something to make the journey forward easier and safer?
I’m sure someone is capable of building a ladder that will reach to the depths of the pit. There are probably highly organized, intelligent people who will come together as a strong group to try to stop the genocide of free-thinking believers, but I highly doubt that any human beings are strong enough to storm the church and hold the perpetrators accountable for their actions.
The church has the reputation of being the only army that shoots its own wounded. That may be true, but as a friend of mine has been known to say, more often we just kick them when they’re down and leave them, abandoned and bleeding, to die in the gutter.
A sad commentary on the state of all too many churches today.
Where I worship, we have all sorts of dying people. Liberals, conservatives (about 50/50) rich and poor, the very young to the very old, people of all races, people who don’t speak much English, to professors of English.
All are welcome. No politics in the pulpit or the worship service. No self-help programs or ‘how to’ sermons. No catering
Just God’s law to accuse and condemn us, and then God’s gospel to forgive and give us new life. And the free gift of God’s sacraments.
“Free thinkers” think whatever they want; they are free to.
Should the “free thinker” be told to be quiet? I don’t know. Maybe?
Should the “bound thinker” be told to be quiet? I don’t know. Maybe?
Who decides? I don’t know. God? Maybe?
But it seems to me He lets A LOT of people say A LOT of things without insituting a “Mandatory Muzzle with Salvation” rule. Unless I just didn’t get my personalized gold muzzle yet because I’m not really saved…
ttm,
I have not figured out yet, by your answers, if you would or do put limits on free-thinking within the Body of Christ? However, Jesus himself put the muzzle on some types of ‘free-thinking’ within the Body of Christ. A quick read of Jesus’ words to some of the Churches in the Book of Revelation makes that clear.
Jesus didn’t take kindly to the ‘practices of the Nicolaitans; in fact Jesus was so close-minded about their practices that he said about those practices, “…which I also hate.”
Jesus wasn’t enamored by those who say they are Jews, ‘but are a synagogue of Satan.
Jesus had a little bit to say about allowing ‘anything goes’ religion in his Church when he speaks of the ‘teaching of Balaam.’
And ttm, if you know any ‘free-thinking’ Jezebel’s’ in the Church you might point them to Rev. 2:20-23. That is of course you don’t believe what Jesus has to say, but embrace ‘free-thinkers’ who would contradict Jesus’ own words.
If I remember right, Jesus took on the free-thinking of the Pharisees, too? In their ‘free-thinking,’ they declared him not to be who he claimed to be. In many ways Jesus contradicted them to their faces.
I also seem to remember Jesus not tolerating Peter’s ‘free-thinking,’ “get behind me Satan.” And he surely didn’t go along with the ‘free-thinking’ ear cutter-offer job Peter did on Malchus.
Then, of course, the most powerful taking on of ‘free-thinking’ by Jesus was his declaration, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” All the ‘free-thinking’ in the world can’t/doesn’t change that statement.
Of course his words to Nicodemus has a thing or two that takes some ‘free-thinkers’ to screaming: “I tell you the truth, unless a man is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”
Jesus isn’t against ‘free-thinking.’ However, he is against false teaching in the name of ‘free-thinking.’ “You tolerate that woman Jezebel…prophetess.” “…I will cast her on a bed of suffering….”
fishon
No, I don’t believe it is possible to limit people’s thinking.
But wouldn’t you agree that Jesus was trying to stop the spead of ‘free-thinkers’ perpetrating false teaching—-from the Pharisees to the teachings of Balaam, the Nicolaitans, and the Jezebel’s, and other false religions?
fishon
Fishon, I love your comments. You have me laughing uproariously one second and really thinking the next…
Doesn’t it just suck that you can’t easily categorize how I feel about “free thinking within the body of Christ” from my answers? It sucks that you can’t play God in my life, doesn’t it? ;^)
The thing is I don’t even know what I think about some things some times. The only one who really knows my heart is God. So, when you try to figure me out and classify me as “in” or “out” of whatever standard or doctrine you are using to classify, you just don’t have enough information to do it.
I can’t classify myself much of the time. I’ve spent years trying to do that and not much has come of it. So, I’ll give you fair warning that if you make that your life’s ambition, you’ll kill yourself trying to figure out whether I am “conservative” or “liberal” or “fundamental” or “pentecostal.” I’m just me and my thoughts about things change sometimes from second to second. (Of course a really good “fundamental” response from you would be to quote me the “double-minded Scripture”–you know where you tell me I’m tossed to and fro and all that. But you’d be wasting your breath because I’ve heard it from myself many times and simply hearing it–even meditating upon it–really hasn’t made my mind any more stable yet.)
Jesus definitely did have a lot to say about false teachers–usually the false teachers that tried to box people into categories and regulate behaviors. But God really seems to have quite a large tolerance for free speech even within His Body. If I just let my mind think about that (you know, freely, without preconditions) I might brainstorm some reasons why it might be that God “lets” people think what they will and say what they will:
-because He knows He’s all powerful and what people think/say really doesn’t matter much in the grand scheme of what He’s trying to do.
-because He has promised people free will. He wants them to think and speak freely. It is His gift to us.
-because He uses people’s thinking and speech as a way to teach them. Sometimes it isn’t until AFTER I’ve said something that I realize it might not be right, true, or good.
-because He uses “false teaching” as a way to draw attention to its opposite: “true teaching.”
-because He gets a kick out of hearing us ramble on…much like a parent thinks “silly” sayings of a 3 year old are cute (and can be used as “blackmail” in the teenage years).
I noticed you mentioned Jezebel’s name twice. I wonder why! Shall I try to figure out why you might be obsessed with thinking about Jezebel and her followers? ;^) Thanks for making me laugh and think…you know how much I love to do both.
ttm,
Sometimes we talk past each other, and other times we are not talking about the same things. And even other times we really misunderstand each other. But we struggle on.
YOU: Doesn’t it just suck that you can’t easily categorize how I feel about “free thinking within the body of Christ” from my answers? It sucks that you can’t play God in my life, doesn’t it? ;^)
—–I don’t believe I am trying to categorize how you feel—but only trying to understand how and why you think what you think. That is different that categorizing.
—–As far as not being able to play God in your life—-come on, ttm, how could I possible do that in this media situation??? That statement is a little lame. I can’t even be God in my Beagle’s life. Just the other day she bit me when I was trimming her nails. But then of course, we know that many folks take a bit at God.
YOU: So, when you try to figure me out and classify me as “in” or “out” of whatever standard or doctrine you are using to classify, you just don’t have enough information to do it.
—–Try to figure you out, no. Classify you, no. You will notice when I said:: “I have not figured out yet, by your answers, if you would or do put limits on free-thinking within the Body of Christ?” it was very specific about your position on “put[ting] limits on free-thinking. within the Body of Christ.” Heck, ttm, I can’t figure me out let alone try to figure out anyone else.
YOU:: So, I’ll give you fair warning that if you make that your life’s ambition, you’ll kill yourself trying to figure out whether I am “conservative” or “liberal” or “fundamental” or “Pentecostal.”
—–Ah, you falter your self too much. Why would I make it my life’s ambition to figure you out???? And I could care less as to you being a ‘conservative,’ ‘liberal,’ ‘fundamental,’ or ‘Pentecostal.’ Heck, depending on the issue, situation, and how I feel at the time, I am all of those and more.
YOU:: I noticed you mentioned Jezebel’s name twice. I wonder why! Shall I try to figure out why you might be obsessed with thinking about Jezebel and her followers? ;^)
—–I don’t care if you try and figure out why I mentioned Jezebel twice, if that’s your game. While you are at it you might try and figure out why I mentioned Peter twice? And heck, I believe I mentioned Jesus 13 times; that should give you some figuring time.
While we are at it, Paul has a few things to say about ‘free-thinking.”
Galatians 1:6-10 [NLT] 6 I am shocked that you are turning away so soon from God, who called you to himself through the loving mercy of Christ.[c] You are following a different way that pretends to be the Good News 7 but is not the Good News at all. You are being fooled by those who deliberately twist the truth concerning Christ.
8 Let God’s curse fall on anyone, including us or even an angel from heaven, who preaches a different kind of Good News than the one we preached to you. 9 I say again what we have said before: If anyone preaches any other Good News than the one you welcomed, let that person be cursed.
10 Obviously, I’m not trying to win the approval of people, but of God. If pleasing people were my goal, I would not be Christ’s servant.
peace friend,
fishon
Ah, fishon. If I were your beagle and the nail trimming always came with a lecture and a threat of “no treats for antsy doggies” I’d bite you too!
How about you let God decide whether I’m turning away from Him, following a different way, being fooled, twisting the truth, preaching a different kind of Good News, and being cursed? Maybe you could save yourself the trouble of judging me and worry just about yourself. That shouldn’t be too hard–After all, you’re extremely devout, incredibly wise, gutwrenchingly honest, 100% true, and you’re wearing that “No Old Goats Allowed” T-shirt which surely get you past the ropes to Heaven.
I’ll just sit here in my favorite thinking spot and brainstorm…fair enough?
ttm,
Millie gets no lectures. Apparently you know little about Beagles–it is all about the nose and treats. Lectures don’t faze-um. Besides, she is deaf. Oops, shouldn’t have said that. I can hear the come back.
I am still having trouble as to where you think I am “judging” you? Having disagreements and debate does not mean I am judging you. But then if you think to disagree and debate is judging, I dare say you judge me by disagreeing and debating me!!!
Yes, I am devout, but I don’t know about the extremely part. Incredibly wise, hardly, but wiser than I use to be–and I believe Proverbs encourages us all to grow in wisdom.
Gutwrenchingly honest–I try to be. 100% true–don’t follow that one. “No Old Goats Allowed–why ttm, I am and old goat.
Yep, you keep brainstorming and I will reply from time to time. That is unless you ask me to stop replying to you—-in that case I would honor your request.
peace,
fishon
Wow guys (fishon & ttm) from freedom of thought to beagles, now that’s some debate! I think (freely?); God allows freedom of thought, speech and action, He just reminds us that each has it’s own consequence. It’s still our free will to choose.
Hope you guys really mean the love and peace, I think (still rather freely) you do!
I agree with you that freedom of thought and speech always are joined to consequence. “Everything is permissible; not everything is beneficial.” That’s one reason I’m so thankful for David’s blog where, most of the time, the consequence for speaking “freely” is discussion rather than attack.
Just to clarify–because fishon’s comment to you implies it–I am not Muslim.
I hope fishon and his Muslim friend DO have a relationship built on love and peace.
Love and peace are much needed in this world of suffering and hatred.
Usually after “talking” with fishon for awhile I find myself asking “What does love require?” and the answer is sometimes elusive. But, I’ll keep chasing it…
ttm,
Sorry about that. Didn’t mean to imply you are a Muslim.
Quit interesting that you would question “What does love require,” after talking with me. I didn’t realize that disagreement and debate would push someone that far to question what love requires.
My Muslim friend and I disagree vehemently with each other. He thinks I am lost and I think him lost—–we debate about it——-we call that love. Why? He believes what he believes, and he loves me enough to try and get me to accept the truth [his truth]. I love him so much that I will debate with him to try and get him to the truth.
You see, debate, disagreement, totally different world views does not negate love for one another. Some folks don’t understand that, and they call differences expressed, “hate.”
fishon
Hi David,
Greetings from the other side of Canada! Loved the cartoon.
I completed a doctoral dissertation based on the research of those who had negative church experiences under pastoral leadership. I tracked how people recovered from distressing ‘muddy tunnel’ church experiences. You can read about it online at:
David Hayward is a pastor artistically stripping to the essential.
The only question with this one is: Is that the front or the back door?
This is awesome!
It will be years before the mass graves are located and the alleged crimes are tried in the Supreme Court. In the meantime, one can just help a wounded brother or sister if given the opportunity, right? Can I give them a hand? Can I listen to them retell the trauma as many times as necessary? Can I give them shelter or something to make the journey forward easier and safer?
I’m sure someone is capable of building a ladder that will reach to the depths of the pit. There are probably highly organized, intelligent people who will come together as a strong group to try to stop the genocide of free-thinking believers, but I highly doubt that any human beings are strong enough to storm the church and hold the perpetrators accountable for their actions.
Maybe that’s where imprecatory prayer comes in…
The church I go to is at the bottom of that cliff, bringing in the dying, and speaking of the One who will give them new life.
We don’t exclude…we include. The Message is for all who will hear it.
yes, steve, we’d all like to believe that.
The church has the reputation of being the only army that shoots its own wounded. That may be true, but as a friend of mine has been known to say, more often we just kick them when they’re down and leave them, abandoned and bleeding, to die in the gutter.
A sad commentary on the state of all too many churches today.
Where I worship, we have all sorts of dying people. Liberals, conservatives (about 50/50) rich and poor, the very young to the very old, people of all races, people who don’t speak much English, to professors of English.
All are welcome. No politics in the pulpit or the worship service. No self-help programs or ‘how to’ sermons. No catering
Just God’s law to accuse and condemn us, and then God’s gospel to forgive and give us new life. And the free gift of God’s sacraments.
It’s not hard to do. Just do it.
ttm,
“…free-thinking believers….”
—-What does that mean/
—-What does a ‘free-thinker” think?
—-Is there ever a time when the ‘free-thinker’ should be told to be quiet?
fishon
Fishon,
“Free thinkers” are people who think freely.
“Free thinkers” think whatever they want; they are free to.
Should the “free thinker” be told to be quiet? I don’t know. Maybe?
Should the “bound thinker” be told to be quiet? I don’t know. Maybe?
Who decides? I don’t know. God? Maybe?
But it seems to me He lets A LOT of people say A LOT of things without insituting a “Mandatory Muzzle with Salvation” rule. Unless I just didn’t get my personalized gold muzzle yet because I’m not really saved…
ttm,
I have not figured out yet, by your answers, if you would or do put limits on free-thinking within the Body of Christ? However, Jesus himself put the muzzle on some types of ‘free-thinking’ within the Body of Christ. A quick read of Jesus’ words to some of the Churches in the Book of Revelation makes that clear.
Jesus didn’t take kindly to the ‘practices of the Nicolaitans; in fact Jesus was so close-minded about their practices that he said about those practices, “…which I also hate.”
Jesus wasn’t enamored by those who say they are Jews, ‘but are a synagogue of Satan.
Jesus had a little bit to say about allowing ‘anything goes’ religion in his Church when he speaks of the ‘teaching of Balaam.’
And ttm, if you know any ‘free-thinking’ Jezebel’s’ in the Church you might point them to Rev. 2:20-23. That is of course you don’t believe what Jesus has to say, but embrace ‘free-thinkers’ who would contradict Jesus’ own words.
If I remember right, Jesus took on the free-thinking of the Pharisees, too? In their ‘free-thinking,’ they declared him not to be who he claimed to be. In many ways Jesus contradicted them to their faces.
I also seem to remember Jesus not tolerating Peter’s ‘free-thinking,’ “get behind me Satan.” And he surely didn’t go along with the ‘free-thinking’ ear cutter-offer job Peter did on Malchus.
Then, of course, the most powerful taking on of ‘free-thinking’ by Jesus was his declaration, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” All the ‘free-thinking’ in the world can’t/doesn’t change that statement.
Of course his words to Nicodemus has a thing or two that takes some ‘free-thinkers’ to screaming: “I tell you the truth, unless a man is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”
Jesus isn’t against ‘free-thinking.’ However, he is against false teaching in the name of ‘free-thinking.’ “You tolerate that woman Jezebel…prophetess.” “…I will cast her on a bed of suffering….”
fishon
do you really think, fishon, that you can limit people’s thinking?
No, I don’t believe it is possible to limit people’s thinking.
But wouldn’t you agree that Jesus was trying to stop the spead of ‘free-thinkers’ perpetrating false teaching—-from the Pharisees to the teachings of Balaam, the Nicolaitans, and the Jezebel’s, and other false religions?
fishon
i think he undermined falsehood and exposed lies by speaking and living truth. but i don’t think he would try to stop people from thinking freely.
Fishon, I love your comments. You have me laughing uproariously one second and really thinking the next…
Doesn’t it just suck that you can’t easily categorize how I feel about “free thinking within the body of Christ” from my answers? It sucks that you can’t play God in my life, doesn’t it? ;^)
The thing is I don’t even know what I think about some things some times. The only one who really knows my heart is God. So, when you try to figure me out and classify me as “in” or “out” of whatever standard or doctrine you are using to classify, you just don’t have enough information to do it.
I can’t classify myself much of the time. I’ve spent years trying to do that and not much has come of it. So, I’ll give you fair warning that if you make that your life’s ambition, you’ll kill yourself trying to figure out whether I am “conservative” or “liberal” or “fundamental” or “pentecostal.” I’m just me and my thoughts about things change sometimes from second to second. (Of course a really good “fundamental” response from you would be to quote me the “double-minded Scripture”–you know where you tell me I’m tossed to and fro and all that. But you’d be wasting your breath because I’ve heard it from myself many times and simply hearing it–even meditating upon it–really hasn’t made my mind any more stable yet.)
Jesus definitely did have a lot to say about false teachers–usually the false teachers that tried to box people into categories and regulate behaviors. But God really seems to have quite a large tolerance for free speech even within His Body. If I just let my mind think about that (you know, freely, without preconditions) I might brainstorm some reasons why it might be that God “lets” people think what they will and say what they will:
-because He knows He’s all powerful and what people think/say really doesn’t matter much in the grand scheme of what He’s trying to do.
-because He has promised people free will. He wants them to think and speak freely. It is His gift to us.
-because He uses people’s thinking and speech as a way to teach them. Sometimes it isn’t until AFTER I’ve said something that I realize it might not be right, true, or good.
-because He uses “false teaching” as a way to draw attention to its opposite: “true teaching.”
-because He gets a kick out of hearing us ramble on…much like a parent thinks “silly” sayings of a 3 year old are cute (and can be used as “blackmail” in the teenage years).
I noticed you mentioned Jezebel’s name twice. I wonder why! Shall I try to figure out why you might be obsessed with thinking about Jezebel and her followers? ;^) Thanks for making me laugh and think…you know how much I love to do both.
NP,
I think I agree that Jesus would not stop ‘free-thinking;’ however, he tries to help the ‘free-thinker’ to think clearly and correctly.
fishon
ttm,
Sometimes we talk past each other, and other times we are not talking about the same things. And even other times we really misunderstand each other. But we struggle on.
YOU: Doesn’t it just suck that you can’t easily categorize how I feel about “free thinking within the body of Christ” from my answers? It sucks that you can’t play God in my life, doesn’t it? ;^)
—–I don’t believe I am trying to categorize how you feel—but only trying to understand how and why you think what you think. That is different that categorizing.
—–As far as not being able to play God in your life—-come on, ttm, how could I possible do that in this media situation??? That statement is a little lame. I can’t even be God in my Beagle’s life. Just the other day she bit me when I was trimming her nails. But then of course, we know that many folks take a bit at God.
YOU: So, when you try to figure me out and classify me as “in” or “out” of whatever standard or doctrine you are using to classify, you just don’t have enough information to do it.
—–Try to figure you out, no. Classify you, no. You will notice when I said:: “I have not figured out yet, by your answers, if you would or do put limits on free-thinking within the Body of Christ?” it was very specific about your position on “put[ting] limits on free-thinking. within the Body of Christ.” Heck, ttm, I can’t figure me out let alone try to figure out anyone else.
YOU:: So, I’ll give you fair warning that if you make that your life’s ambition, you’ll kill yourself trying to figure out whether I am “conservative” or “liberal” or “fundamental” or “Pentecostal.”
—–Ah, you falter your self too much. Why would I make it my life’s ambition to figure you out???? And I could care less as to you being a ‘conservative,’ ‘liberal,’ ‘fundamental,’ or ‘Pentecostal.’ Heck, depending on the issue, situation, and how I feel at the time, I am all of those and more.
YOU:: I noticed you mentioned Jezebel’s name twice. I wonder why! Shall I try to figure out why you might be obsessed with thinking about Jezebel and her followers? ;^)
—–I don’t care if you try and figure out why I mentioned Jezebel twice, if that’s your game. While you are at it you might try and figure out why I mentioned Peter twice? And heck, I believe I mentioned Jesus 13 times; that should give you some figuring time.
While we are at it, Paul has a few things to say about ‘free-thinking.”
Galatians 1:6-10 [NLT] 6 I am shocked that you are turning away so soon from God, who called you to himself through the loving mercy of Christ.[c] You are following a different way that pretends to be the Good News 7 but is not the Good News at all. You are being fooled by those who deliberately twist the truth concerning Christ.
8 Let God’s curse fall on anyone, including us or even an angel from heaven, who preaches a different kind of Good News than the one we preached to you. 9 I say again what we have said before: If anyone preaches any other Good News than the one you welcomed, let that person be cursed.
10 Obviously, I’m not trying to win the approval of people, but of God. If pleasing people were my goal, I would not be Christ’s servant.
peace friend,
fishon
Ah, fishon. If I were your beagle and the nail trimming always came with a lecture and a threat of “no treats for antsy doggies” I’d bite you too!
How about you let God decide whether I’m turning away from Him, following a different way, being fooled, twisting the truth, preaching a different kind of Good News, and being cursed? Maybe you could save yourself the trouble of judging me and worry just about yourself. That shouldn’t be too hard–After all, you’re extremely devout, incredibly wise, gutwrenchingly honest, 100% true, and you’re wearing that “No Old Goats Allowed” T-shirt which surely get you past the ropes to Heaven.
I’ll just sit here in my favorite thinking spot and brainstorm…fair enough?
ttm,
Millie gets no lectures. Apparently you know little about Beagles–it is all about the nose and treats. Lectures don’t faze-um. Besides, she is deaf. Oops, shouldn’t have said that. I can hear the come back.
I am still having trouble as to where you think I am “judging” you? Having disagreements and debate does not mean I am judging you. But then if you think to disagree and debate is judging, I dare say you judge me by disagreeing and debating me!!!
Yes, I am devout, but I don’t know about the extremely part. Incredibly wise, hardly, but wiser than I use to be–and I believe Proverbs encourages us all to grow in wisdom.
Gutwrenchingly honest–I try to be. 100% true–don’t follow that one. “No Old Goats Allowed–why ttm, I am and old goat.
Yep, you keep brainstorming and I will reply from time to time. That is unless you ask me to stop replying to you—-in that case I would honor your request.
peace,
fishon
Wow guys (fishon & ttm) from freedom of thought to beagles, now that’s some debate! I think (freely?); God allows freedom of thought, speech and action, He just reminds us that each has it’s own consequence. It’s still our free will to choose.
Hope you guys really mean the love and peace, I think (still rather freely) you do!
Absolutely—-peace.
My Muslim friend knows I mean it.
fishon
Poetvet,
I agree with you that freedom of thought and speech always are joined to consequence. “Everything is permissible; not everything is beneficial.” That’s one reason I’m so thankful for David’s blog where, most of the time, the consequence for speaking “freely” is discussion rather than attack.
Just to clarify–because fishon’s comment to you implies it–I am not Muslim.
I hope fishon and his Muslim friend DO have a relationship built on love and peace.
Love and peace are much needed in this world of suffering and hatred.
Usually after “talking” with fishon for awhile I find myself asking “What does love require?” and the answer is sometimes elusive. But, I’ll keep chasing it…
David, that is one clever, funny and twisted sign. lol
thanks mich!
ttm,
Sorry about that. Didn’t mean to imply you are a Muslim.
Quit interesting that you would question “What does love require,” after talking with me. I didn’t realize that disagreement and debate would push someone that far to question what love requires.
My Muslim friend and I disagree vehemently with each other. He thinks I am lost and I think him lost—–we debate about it——-we call that love. Why? He believes what he believes, and he loves me enough to try and get me to accept the truth [his truth]. I love him so much that I will debate with him to try and get him to the truth.
You see, debate, disagreement, totally different world views does not negate love for one another. Some folks don’t understand that, and they call differences expressed, “hate.”
fishon
Hi David,
Greetings from the other side of Canada! Loved the cartoon.
I completed a doctoral dissertation based on the research of those who had negative church experiences under pastoral leadership. I tracked how people recovered from distressing ‘muddy tunnel’ church experiences. You can read about it online at:
http://www.ChurchExiters.com.
Talk to you later,
Barb O.