Last night I was told about someone… he and his whole family… life-long members of the Christian church… they left the church (not mine but theirs) for certain reasons. They are incredibly wounded because of things that were done to them. Without going into detail… they are done with church. They still love the Lord, but they are devastated, including their children, and they don’t want to risk subjecting themselves to that kind of harm ever again. My immediate verbal and unedited reaction was, “Oh! I love those people!” Not meaning just that particular family, but people like them. I know exactly what they are feeling. I’ve so been there. And my heart is moved deeply by such stories. I care so much for such people. They are my mission field. And it seems to be growing!
I believe they are victims, like many others I know and hear about, including myself. I am a walking survivor of spiritual abuse. I know intimately what it means. These people have suffered at the hands of the church. This is what I care about! I don’t think, I could be wrong, but I don’t think the church has the right to criticize them or challenge them… at least right now. I think they have the right to criticize the church. To criticize us. To criticize me!
If we, as the church, feel we are the church and are concerned about the welfare of all people, then I believe we must listen to all criticisms that are filed against us. Don’t you? I don’t think I am inaccurate to say that the church is guilty of and is constantly accused of abuse against its members. I feel we must listen to this and humbly absorb the possibility of this and make every attempt to rectify this… if we care at all about people like this family.
So, that being said, when someone claims they left the church and the faith because of the treatment he received at our hands, I think all mortal flesh should keep silence and listen to that with fear and trembling. Now is not the time to challenge them, but to challenge ourselves. On the last day, when I stand before the judgment seat, I don’t want to be accused of not listening to my brother just outside my gate, especially if I was possibly the one who locked him out there.
When I went through devastating abuse at the hands of church leaders, I didn’t need fixing. I didn’t need persuading. I didn’t need correcting. I didn’t need to hear their side. All I needed was to be heard. I finally found people that would just listen to me, hear my anguish, affirm my complaint, and love me as wounded as I was. In time, when the sharpness of the wounds subsided and the tears dried and my heart started beating again, I opened my eyes and realized that those very people who were just listening were my community. They’d become my church. They’d given me a spiritual home. And now I feel strengthened to go after the rest splattered all over the battlefield we’ve created.
I realize some might say, “There you go with your generalizations again… we, we, we! You’re not talking about me!” But isn’t it biblical, at times, to take upon ourselves the responsibility of the whole church and even the whole human race? Isn’t is right to occasionally fall on our knees just because we are a part of the human race prone to harming others and a part of an organization prone to abuse, and say, “Guilty as accused!“?
The drawing/ sketch is one of mind, based on an image I saw in a dream recently, called “Jesus Suffers Among Precious Stones”, available as a small print here.
Contributions to nakedpastor are greatly appreciated.
David Hayward is an artist trapped in a pastor's body, stripping to the essential.
I don’t know nuthin’. But I think somebody is right.
The Bible is right!
Only if you say so Steve
FiF,
I couldn’t resist. I just had to stick my nose back in.
If only I knew those little 6 numbers of the lotto!
Ha!…I try not to buy the things…I say,why ruin a perfectly good miserable life?…;)
FiF (and others), just a question. If you think nobody can be sure they are right so steve and fishon can’t be sure that they are right and then you can’t be sure if you are right so isn’t it possible that they ARE right?
I guess what I am asking is how can you be sure that what you believe is any more of a sure thing then what they believe? It sounds like standing on awfully shaky ground. And I have an idea why it is important for them to stand firm and defend what they believe because they are sure of what they believe but if you believe we can’t be sure of anything then why do you defend your stand so strongly? Does that make sense?
John
In all fairness, dont be insulting. If scripture was clear there wouldnt 33,000 forms of “Christianity” worldwide. And I know, YOUR interpretation is the right one, Please.
Shelley…it’s a good question,but how can we be sure yr more right about their rightness rather than our wrongness ?
Looks like we’re all in the same boat. But seriously,mere conviction or obstinancy does not gaurantee correct belief to either side.But,obviously, there are differences between believers/non-believers when it comes to what the Bible ‘is’ or ’says’.For me,if someone states the Bible to be the Word of God,I know that can mean different things.If it appears they ignore the obvious human element in the mutiplicity of narratives we find there,my spidey-sense starts to tingle.At it’s worst,what often comes next is a dogmatic absolutism that can only be supported by a selective approach that seeks to uphold a particular doctrine of scripture ,and ignore the apparent problems that have challenged historians,scholars,and theologians since this all began.In short,what I’m saying is that when I disagree,argue and challenge,I try to keep on the side that,IMO, the evidence supports the most.If others think it’s not there,I’m willing to listen.If the issue discussed is individual faith in God (Christian or otherwise),then the landscape changes.My bar is getting lower all the time.
Shelley,
We live in an especially politically correct time period. There is a whole crew of people out there who say there are no absolutes, but when you challenge them, they say we who say there are absolutes, then say we are wrong. Of course they mean we are “absolutely” wrong. Go figure. And they truely dislike anyone who has an absolute belief and faith. In the end, they are just afraid of making a stand, and it irritates them that people like us do. It it funny how they fight so hard against we who stand firm in our faith. If it didn’t bug them so much….
fishon
John said:
What a shame it is to claim that Christ’s bride be malicious in anyway. Did you he pay the ultimate price for a vicious concubine?
Please be careful of how you speak of His bride, I wouldn’t want someone to do the same to my future wife.
Now all situations differ according to a number of variables, but the most important thing I think we define is what is a church.
and
The reason that the so called church is so full of sin and that it just looks like another social club is because we have whole church rolls that are made up of largely of unregenerate members. We don’t a whole bunch of churches in America, we have a bunch of red brick buildings with manicured lawns.
Um…did Christ pay the ultimate price for an unregenerate collection of sin that is only concerned with architecture?
You seem to be critical of the misuse of the word “church” and then you do the same…
Hmmm…
Fishon, I just finished a big response all about being right and wrong. It is just soooo important to all of us. (humans, I mean) and then I erased it because no matter what I say or how I say it, it doesn’t convey what I mean.
Here is what I believe. Jesus Christ left his heavenly throne to come to earth to sacrifice himself (being fully God and fully man and without sin) as an atonement for my sins. He died and rose again and he has prepared a home for me in heaven because I am reconciled to God through my acceptance and belief in what he did for me. This reconciliation is open to all mankind. Jesus said he was the Way, the Truth, and the Life. He also said no one could come to God except through Him. I believe that. I don’t understand it all. There are parts of it that is a mystery to me. There are even parts of my belief system that seem unjust and unfair. But, I trust he is fully just and fully merciful. More so than any of us, and I do not fear for one minute he will condemn or pardon anyone unjustly. His love for mankind is greater than any love we have for each other and he doesn’t want to lose anyone.
But he also said that he came to give those who believe in Him peace, but not the kind the world gives. I think I am just barely starting to understand that now because peaceful is not how I would describe my life and yet I am getting a glimpse of an eternal kind of peace. Jesus warned that he did not come to unite but to divide. He also prayed that we would become one. I suspect he is not talking about the same people.
You are right. My position is not a popular one but (like you), I want other people to believe the way I do because I think it is truth (and right). I “know” it is the truth. This truth leads to our salvation. But I don’t want people to think that is arrogant of me. That is just the way it Has to be for me. It HAS to be the truth for me. It HAS to be right, otherwise it my faith is meaningless. If I say to someone who thinks I am wrong, “Maybe you are right and I am totally out there.” Then I am lost and my belief is not a belief anymore. My convictions are straw that floats away in the wind.
But I don’t have any desire to try and convince or persuade anyone else to swallow what I believe. I don’t have any special words or thoughts that will prove to anyone what I believe. I can’t even prove it to myself because it isn’t proveable, it just is. If someone is open and wants to believe it and chooses to believe it that is wonderful. But I will never try to change what someone else “knows”. Not anymore. I am very interested in what people say here and in their reasoning and in why they believe what they do. The mind is an amazing thing. There is a place here for what you say, Jerry. In this forum I believe anyone who wants to, is invited to convince or persuade others of their convictions. But everyday life is not like that and we don’t often get invited to share our beliefs.
My hope would be that people won’t see me or you as being exclusive or judgemental. Just passionate about what we believe.
FiF, thanks for your reply. I am sincerely interested in you point of view. What did you mean, your bar is getting lower?
Now first I want to ask for forgiveness if I have been a stumbling block to anyone here. Tit, I hope I can show you my intentions were not to insult.
Fred,
The churches I was speaking about are blessed with saints in spite of their teaching. I know many friends and brothers that attend questionable (little c) churches. Their assurance of salvation is biblical but the teaching they receive is unfounded.
The Church is a truly beautiful bride.
People call anything a church today. Yet it has no biblical authority. Jesus gave all authority to His Church in His Great Commission. This bride is alive and well today carrying out the Great Commission.
I confess any misuse of speech and may the Lord use a clay vessel such as myself for His glory.
Please brother Tit I never said My interpretation is correct and only correct. Their may be things I am wrong about till my death. But for the cultural trend of christianity, there is no saving grace in making your own church and calling it the Lord’s Church. Salvation is by grace alone through faith, a gift of God. Not of works, lest any man shall boast. The Church is a privilege not an entitlement.
I wish not to be in any open debate that may cause any brother here to stumble, I just had to speak openly about the misuse of what people today think of the Church so like my father is, will not be hindered in attending a true New Testament Church.
Shelley,
YOU::f I say to someone who thinks I am wrong, “Maybe you are right and I am totally out there.” Then I am lost and my belief is not a belief anymore. My convictions are straw that floats away in the wind.
—-Absolutely, Shelley. But this modern world we live in hates people who have convictions, unbending convictions in their beliefs. And they battle very hard to convince us we are intolerant and bigots to hold to our principles and convictions. They work very hard telling us “You can’t know for sure,” then they try and convince us and others that they KNOW FOR SURE WE CAN’T KNOW FOR SURE. Interesting how they can know for sure that we are wrong. We have a good sample of them working this blog site. It does make things interesting.
YOU: But I don’t want people to think that is arrogant of me.
——Sadly, just saying what Jesus says about himself {I am the Way….} and you and I standing on that word will cause people to call us arrogant. If that is arrogants, I plead quilty.
YOU: My hope would be that people won’t see me or you as being exclusive or judgemental. Just passionate about what we believe.
—–Shelley, that is the nature of our faith. However, it matters not whether we be Christians or just people who stand for moral and ethical laws. The finger point of judgementalism will wag. Just look at our respective governments and the wagging fingers and accusations amonst the parties.
Our Messiah warned us of the wagging, and he was right. He warned of the mocking that would most certainly come because of embracing His salvation and Lordship. I don’t go looking for it–however, I wil most certainly not run from it. Truth is truth irregardless of the “You can’t possibly know truth cause I don’t know truth” crowd.
Glad to hear you are getting the glimpse of eternal peace. God is blessing me beyond measure with it. Seek and you will find. Not my promise but HIS promise.
IN CHRIST,
jerry
Jesus said He IS the TRUTH.
He told us that message would divide people.
The WORLD would hate that message. But He has overcome the world!
No such a thing as right or wrong? HA!! We’ll see about that.
If my kids called me ‘FRANK’ all the time, I’d have to wonder if they knew who I was. My name is ‘Steve’. I’d prefer they called me Dad.
God has made Himself known…in the Bible … as ‘JESUS’. He like His children to call Him ‘Dad’ or ‘Father’.
If people want to refer to Him as Allah, or Buddha, or ‘Frank’…Our Lord Jesus might wonder who’s kid this really is.
The Christian faith is inclusive of everyone, (He died for ALL!)
BUT! The Christian message is an exclusive one in as much as it recognizes ONE WAY to God and that is through Jesus Christ. Jesus said as much Himself..if you want to believe it.
Nobody can force anyone to believe it. You either believe it (by the grace of God)…or you don’t.
If you don’t, then we’ll pray that one day…by God’s grace…you do!
Amen, Brothers Jerry and Steve.
My prayers go to the blind(spiritually) so they may see(spiritually)
Grace and peace in Christ,
john
@Kevin
Someone once said that those in the front line, they get hurt…
I’ve been worried about my pastor, about how these days many of the things he preached doesn’t sound to me as biblical, and whether he’s burning out and whether he’ll lead people to wrong places. But you know what, amidst all these worries, I’ve never ever desired to make any effort to catch up with him and talk to him and see that he’s ok. My human person even feels that it’s unnecessary to pray for him, yet I “worry” and “is concerned.”
Heh. Am a hypocrite of first order.
Zefi,
I agree that we should always be ready to support our pastors in whatever way we can. Whether its in prayer, genuinely asking how they’re doing, or listening over a cup of coffee.
In my situation we did all those things. On top of that they’re were always more than a few people giving unsolicited negative comments about the pastor. My wife and I would listen, actually defend the pastor, and direct them to the elder board or the pastor himself if they still had a problem.
Let me say that our story (like most I’m sure) is a long and complicated one. I don’t think it’d be right to go into all the detail here, but I want to say that we finally had to leave because there was a pattern of lying and being unrepentant about it. Its not like there was a little bit of conflict and we had a hissy fit and took off. I do believe that community is incredibly hard but worth it. We pushed into the conflict, tried to show humility to those God placed over us but in the end it was a one way street.
Saying “feels that it’s unnecessary to pray for him” I think sums up so much what’s wrong with the church (and that’s not a hit on you…I say that all the time). Somewhere along the line we ascribed to pastors superhuman powers. So much so that we don’t feel its necessary to pray for them because they’ve already arrived. Along with that we make all kind of excuses for them when they drop the ball. We lost some friendships because some people just couldn’t believe that a pastor would lie and be so unrepentant about it.
I’m still working through what I think about all of this, but one thing I have settled on is that pastors are human. and I’m no longer going to allow that as an excuse for them because the Bible doesn’t allow for that. The Bible holds those in leadership in the church to an almost impossibly high standard and doesn’t allow a whole lot of grace when they drop the ball.
All that to say I think you should pray for your pastor. Say a little prayer whenever he pops into your head. Say a prayer during the sermons. On the flip side don’t just write off your worries as some sort of failing on your part. If your pastor is saying unbiblical do something about it. If you feel like he’s approaching being burnt out force yourself into his life. Someone just posted a great link…smolderingwickministries.org. Great site from what I’ve been able to look at so far!
And, yes, we are all hypocrites. Me first among them.
Uh, I can’t be doing that. I’m already someone in a Pentecostal church despite disagreeing with some of the core doctrines of Pentecostalism! LOL! I think they worry about me too and wanted to talk to me! And I honestly think that this is a very amusing and sweet situation.
Depends on the circumstance. To jump in without proper consideration would be bad for both parties. I don’t think I should let my Messiah complex controls my judgement.
Oh, no you don’t! You’re not taking my place!
*kicks Kevin and sits on the holy throne of hypocrisy*
I think some of you need help in learning how to express opinion and while having discussion in a non-professional/amateurish environment. Here’s a pointer:
If you’re about to write something that might be controversial,
1. Use the word ‘maybe’! It’s your best friend! Or,
2. Start your sentence(s) with the phrase, ‘I suspect.‘ Or,
3. Any way you can find to help the people you’re addressing not fall into the illusion that they are compelled/forced/smothered to accept your arguments or opinion.
Even if you’re an expert in the topic, one must maintain an appearance of humility, and gentleness and things like that.
Remember, contrary to popular belief, people don’t really care about who you are, only who you appear to be. Now, if my suggestion sounds unethical, remember, it’s more unethical to distract people from the content of your arguments by your careless choice of words and untactful structuring of sentences.
well zefi, if you’ve learned anything from my blog at all you should know that I am not afraid to express as clearly and boldly as possible my thoughts, because I don’t believe unity comes through agreement nor compatibility. these are only hopeful byproducts of unity. so i’m not into pussy-footing around… useless waste of time without any purpose except being acceptable, and I’ve given up on that a long time ago.
Oh, I can surely see that. But if you understand what I’m trying to convey, you would understand that what I’m trying to say is that something that can be said, can often be said better.
You might not be distracted by how people sounds like when they post their opinion, or how untactful they are in expressing their thought, but there are people who mind, and to them it is so important that the content of the message posted is of secondary importance. I’m just trying promote understanding and sensitivity of people’s differences. I guess it’s not working.
Plus, are you not the one who said something that went, “zefi, what you just said sounds terribly condescending.” (not poking you back. honest.)
zefi,
From MY {no one elses} perspective, no, I don’t think you are a hypocrite in this situation. Why do I say that? Because you are still asking questions and questioning yourself as what to do.
When you say he might be preaching something that doesn’t sound biblical to you, are you talking of opinion or doctrine?
Zefi, do pray for your pastor. It matters not as to whether you feel like it, just do it. At the top of the church bulletin I have these words, “Please don’t leave me in the pulpit without your prayers.”
As far as talking to him, that is a tough call. The fact is, some pastors [just like anyone else] are approachable and some not. Some have a history of not taking anything critical or questioning without anger or holy judgment placed back on the questioner. You have to make that decision based on several factors. However, whatever your decision, absolutely do NOT become a gossip or slanderer. Leave the church before that happens. I am guessing you will make the right decision when all is said and done.
fishon
I and many others like me (I see this in your wonderful post, Dave) are moving beyond our victim status and pioneering a new spirituality, a new form of church, unhindered by walls of any kind. And the mark that we’ve moved beyond? That we are reengaging with the church that has rejected us, on the terms we believe God has revealed to us.
We’re coming back to you, church, with a prophetic message. If you don’t listen, you know what we’ll do? We’ll brush the dust off our feet and walk on.
Our message? Church has to die to itself. To all form and structure, with its militaristic overtones and exclusions, its petty-mindedness, its ‘I’m right though I don’t deserve it, so stuff you’ individuality, its pursuit of visions at the expense of love. If it does so, God will be present in its weakness. It was ever thus. And God help me, God will be present in the church even if it fails to listen.
Hi Zefi, by the way!
i have read all posts & agree with some & disagree with some, but i think to be Christ like is to first deny self. Paul said ”Let every man work out his own salvation with fear and trembling”. Don’t let pride and ego get in the way of ur walk with God. As for church i look to help & love my neighbor rather than support a pile of sticks & stones where God doesn’t live.
Steve…God only speaks one language?…lucky you…it’s English
FiF,
NEWSFLASH!!
Bible now in almost all languages!!
And never understood less
Fif,
Many people in many places seem to have little or no trouble.
This post modern (in the West) morass of pluralism, existentialism, individualism, and all the other new fangled isms seem to have made it a lot harder to comprehend.
We’re too darn smart for our own good!
Maybe we shld dumb down
We ought instead…’get down’.
…off our high horse and thinking so much of ourselves compared to God and what He has done, is doing, and will yet do…for us.
Steve
The only rendition of God you’ll see on this earth at this time, is you or me.
Shelly..thx for yr reply…I’ll add to what I said earlier by way of another thot. I have noticed that many believers in some form of Christianity,including myself ,often have an initial encounter with God/Jesus long before they have what might be called ‘their theology’.Of course,they might start to read scripture or books about scripture,attend a church,etc. and within a short time,they begin, almost unknowingly, to take a theological position. It’s difficult to generalize this idea to everybody,but in my case ,I noticed that despite the inclusive nature of my conversion,I began to develop a rather exclusive expression of it…a lot of no,no ,no and must ,should and oughts….as well,I began to feel that I was becoming an echo,and not an original voice.I bought the program and I was trying to sell it to others,not very convincingly.
Let me jump ahead and try to clarify how I feel now. I think what really is important to any believer in God is faith,but for many that means’ a theology’,a set of beliefs,a kind of faith-plus. For many,it’s not enought a have a faith in God,you must believe the Bible to be this and Jesus to be that,and of course you must believe yrself to be nothing and so on and so on.Now,if you’ve read my comments,I’m hardly anti-theological, but I let my theolgy serve my faith,it’s not the same thing as my faith.If I choose to regard the Bible as more of a human artifact ,rather than the Divine Word of God ,my faith remains…it’s not based on any set of beliefs that might come along later. Despite what others might suggest,I try not to question the ‘faith’ of anyone who comments her,but I do question their theolgy and I welcome their questions of mine.This is what I meant about setting the bar low,just imagine what the church wd look like if our only criteria was faith in God…I don’t see Jesus asking for more than that,in fact,He seems to ask less at times.We have a world of faithful believers in God all seperated by theology.
TfT,
“The only rendition of God you’ll see on this earth at this time, is you or me.”
Huh?
I get my vision of God from the Bible and it’s description of Christ Jesus.
If you want to know what God is like…look at Jesus.
We are chasing our tails again.
The God of the Bible (Jesus Christ) is God.
Either you believe it…or not.
Ifyou do… then, terrific! If you don’t…then you don’t. So what?
FiF, Jesus is such a paradox. It has seemed over my walk with him that he asks nothing and everything. I don’t think right now at this point in time he is asking me to “do” anything. It seems to be a time of quiet as far as actions but he does asking me for the utmost trust in him at a time when my life feels like it is in turmoil.
I haven’t trusted him for a while and I tried to go it on my own. I even tried to pretend he didn’t exist because for me there can be no other god. I believe God has provided a way that we can know we are HIs children. You see my “faith” has the Bible as it’s foundation because it started me on my spiritual journey. It gave me the supports to begin building what is now my spiritual belief system. The Bible is not my god but it was provided for me under the guidance and direction of God. Do I have questions about some of it. Yes, I don’t understand it all. No one understands it all or interprets it perfectly but I trust what I see as the overall message of it. As I said before I believe the core message is that we are separated from God by our sin and Jesus is the solution to that separation.
Over my lifetime when my heart is in the right place the Bible sings to me. (Not literally.
) I mean it speaks to a place in my spirit that jumps in me when it recognizes the truth. I know God speaks to me through it because there is a place (almost literally) in my chest that feels kind of warm and peaceful. There is a sense of well being. an AHA kind of thing. For me the Bible is not an antiqued book but something that God breathes on and brings alive to us. Did you see the scene in the Chronicles of Narnia movie where Aslan breathes on the statues and they change from cold hard stone into living beings. That is what Jesus did for me by his sacrifice and the Bible is a witness to that. That scene brought tears to my eyes because my heart recognized something true.
The Bible is not a book of rules that will get your knuckles wrapped by a yard stick if you disobey it. It is an act of love meant to enlighten us to our poverty and nakedness and then inform us how we can be clothed in light and righteousness. Yes, in many places it gets down to the nitty gritty and we have to decern for ourselves with the help of the Spirit the truth of it but overall the old Testament is a book about history and fortelling of the coming Savior and the New Testament is a witness to that Savior and what he has done for us. It doesn’t cover everything but we have the Spirit help us with the rest.
Again we aren’t perfect and we will mess up interpretations . One of the hardest requirements Jesus makes of us is to forgive because in any and all relationships we will be hurt and we will hurt others. Sometimes we are are like the proverbial “bull in the china shop” even when we have the best of intentions. We need to look at why someone has hurt us. Were they frustrated, fearful, or misguided? Forgiveness is the balm that heals the heart of the victim. It is difficult for me to hear the church being ground into the dirt for her sins against the innocent. The church is not a building. It is made up of people who are for the most part, well meaning but somewhere they became afraid or frustrated or misguided.
I have suffered through the same church split as np and then left a church born out of that split, wounded in both cases. I felt abused in some way from all sides but my heart is free of anger and resentment. I love all those involved and have forgiven all. I pray they have forgiven me for any wrong I did as well. (As an aside and to be honest, forgiveness doesn’t mean you expose yourself to be wounded again and again and right now I have serious trust issues when it comes to any social group, be it of a spiritual nature or not. But especially of a spiritual nature.)
You know, I believe it was Paul who said that love fulfills the law. FiF, I don’t believe you and I are separated by our spiritual beliefs. Love don’t require conformity and a total acceptance of another’s belief system. Love to me means a concern for the well being of the other and a respect for them as a fellow human being. I recognize that definition from most of those that post on this blog.
Steve M,
“I get my vision of God from the Bible and it’s description of Christ Jesus.
If you want to know what God is like…look at Jesus”
You know, it sounds so simple when you put it like that. Trouble is, we know that so much of scripture fits with pre-existing texts, and that people in the first centuries AD were perfectly capable a) of telling a fictional story, and b) using that story to communicate deep truths about love, wisdom and everything that we value in life. Storytellers have been around since the beginning of humankind – as, believe it or not, and despite what I was once told as a young Christian, have resurrected heroes. I’ve read and heard the stories. I know they exist.
In the stories, Jesus himself told us where to look to find him – in each other, in little children. That’s what TfT is talking about.
At best you can say we should look at each other and at the Bible together, but even then you are looking at what people chose to write, and how they chose to write it – that is, you are looking at the writers – regardless of how you interpret the way God inspired them.
But really, that’s okay! Because the deep truth that (the story of) Jesus points to is the ever-giving Love that is of God and is God. The Love that forms us and holds us and transforms us despite, and even through, the logic traps that we set for ourselves (of which literalistic interpretation is one).
By the way, did you know that no-one speaks an identical language to anyone else? Everyone differs. Some people don’t have the capacity to understand language at all. Many languages have died out before a hard-copy Bible was translated into them. I’m pleased that the Bible is to be translated into every language, and that people of every tongue will be saved, because that means that we are all saved. The Bible says so.
Steve L.
“If you want to know what God is like…look at Jesus”
You know, it sounds so simple when you put it like that. Trouble is,…”
Steve, the trouble is…that you just don’t believe it. That’s all. I’m not judging you or excoriating you…you just don’t believe what the Bible actually says.
The Bible DOES NOT say that we are all saved.
It says that we are all forgiven. But that truth has to be believed. Without faith (or trust) to believe it…what is one left with? His or her self..that’s what.
One must believe and that is a gift of god that comes from hearing His Word and His Word is found in scripture, in baptism, in the preaching of His Word, and in Holy Communion.
Can one be saved without ‘the Bible’…YES, one can. BUT, the Bible shows us what God wants us to believe. The Bible is God’s roadmap for us to get us to whwere He wants us to go.
Thanks Steve!
“…because atheists have become more visible and vocal, there’s been a backlash…”: http://tr.im/edr3
Jeff: excellent article you linked to. I agree. When I heard Obama’s speech and his inclusion of atheists, I was happy. I agree that if we are to consider ourselves a patchwork quilt, then all of us must be included, believers and non-believers alike. But I also agree with the article that just because a president gives recognition to a minority group, it doesn’t mean things are going to get any easier for that group. I think we have miles to go before we are truly an inclusive society.
Steve M,
No, it’s even more simple than you say. If you have experienced Love, you buy the whole package – Bible, church, Jesus risen from the dead, everything. I know. I have bought it. I don’t disown it. There is no disjunction between me in my early days as a Christian and me as a Christian now. Jesus has risen bodily. I am a sinner. His grace is sufficient for me in my weakness. I am a fool for Christ, willingly. Tell me what else I need to testify to and I will testify to it with all my life.
Now, please listen.
I left church and experienced seven plus years of guilt because I was willingly walking away from the most beautiful thing I could imagine. For seven years, when I looked at my family, friends, wife – when I did a beautiful thing like marry my wife – the kick at the heart of my being was that I was screwing their lives up, and they would face Hell because of me. You’d better be darn sure that I learned to cover it well. I became a fine upstanding man with a great job and much respect and love from the people around me. But I didn’t let any of it in.
One day I despaired.
That night, at about three in the morning, I woke in a bubble of Love. No matter how I stretched and wriggled and tested it, all I felt was Love. I said, and I knew, that if I had anything to forgive, it was forgiven, because the Love wouldn’t be there if it wasn’t. I knew that I was willing to go straight back to the church I had walked away from, happily.
But.
Love made no demands on me. And I knew Love would not leave me whether I chose to go to church or not. And in the spirit of Jacob wrestling with the angel, or Abraham bargaining with God over the good people in the cities on the plains, I said to God, “If by any means, by remaining outside church, I might save just one person, let me try.”
And I have not gone back to church, and Love has not left me in the five plus years since, and every day brings some new marvel, some new joy, some new moment of Love in my life and the lives of the people who cross my path.
So here’s my testimony: God was before the Bible; God is alongside the Bible; yes, God is in the Bible, and God will be after the Bible. The Bible is a roadmap. Church is a car on the road. But Jesus is the Road – and the beautiful world it passes through, and the people in the beautiful world with me.
And that means you too.
So it is also more complicated. Just because I say something that sounds like I don’t believe the text, doesn’t mean I don’t believe it, and also doesn’t mean I am out to deceive you. We really are on the same side. But God in his grace gives us more than the world we know. We are in his hands. He will not let us fall.
Steve L.
Great answer.
You are a good man.
“Just because I say something that sounds like I don’t believe the text, doesn’t mean I don’t believe it, and also doesn’t mean I am out to deceive you. We really are on the same side. But God in his grace gives us more than the world we know. We are in his hands. He will not let us fall.”
Amen!
Thanks, Steve
Steve M,
I am a profoundly average man. But this exchange and your response at the end has made my day. So thank you truly.
God speed.
Steve
Steve L. …I was intrigued by yr posts…you have an interesting personal story and yr comment at 10:38 was refreshing,I wd agree with yr insight as to what we’re reading when we read scripture .But,(and there’s always a but with me
)yr following post stated that a package was bought(by you I undertood)….why shld any Divine encounter be so conditional?…unless I’m misunderstanding
Hi Faithlessinfatima,
The truth is I don’t know whether Divine encounters are conditional or not. My personal experience of a surrounding Love was such that a) I couldn’t anticipate it; b) I did nothing to deserve it; c) it so overwhelmed me that I could not see or reach beyond it, nor ever want to, nor can see how that might be possible. Put all three together and it becomes unreasonable not to expect to find Love in everyone else.
If there is Love in everyone, that could be a) because it is unconditionally offered, or b) because in reality it is so appealing, and so little to do with box-ticking and dogma, that at the deepest level, although it is conditionally offered, everyone does accept it, the way we accept the air we breath or our physical nature in any of its aspects. Either way that doesn’t change the way I relate to people, nor the way they relate to me. So I conclude that the unconditionality or otherwise of Love is no big deal.
I can certainly use the language of my evangelical upbringing, and am not ashamed of it. That’s what I was doing with Steve Martin. But I also relish using the language of the rest of society. Perhaps that makes me some kind of two-way radio – which is what I understand an evangelist should be (rather than the one-way kind).
My use of the phrase ‘buy the whole package’ was interesting – and totally consumerist! So maybe Christianity is a consumer religion – but I think it much more likely that we are simply used to using the language and metaphors of the society we grow up in. Which is not necessarily bad, by the way. Just, as society changes, it’s hardly surprising that those of us who are born into new situations should find ourselves using new languages – and there really are profound cultural changes occurring – at least as profound as the invention of the printing press (personally I think this is a massive underestimation).
A little more about the whole ‘package’ metaphor: If you buy the Christian package, and then find out that the heart of it is that there is nothing to buy, because it is all about freely given Love, does that mean you’ve not ‘bought’ the package in the first place? Should you feel resentful, or should you gleefully embrace the playfulness of this new paradox? that’s the nature of the faith-decision I am faced with – and as you can guess, it’s not really a tough call at all!
Does this help? There’s always a ‘but’ with me too: I think that’s what makes us human.
Steve L. …thx for yr reply…yr generosity of spirit shines thru yr words…it appears that yr able to make a distinction between the bedrock and the structure we build on it,or in other words,between our naked interface with God and the theology we develop to support that relationship. Wd you agree?
Faithlessinfatima,
Too much! Too much nice stuff! (Noting Dave has done a cartoon on emoticons, I’m really tempted to put a ‘blushing’ emoticon here…)
I really do agree with you that we are able to make a distinction between naked interface with God and theology – with the proviso (see, I have ‘buts’ too) that I’m not going to hold it against anyone if they don’t think that distinction is possible. This because it was all theory to me until I experienced it, and as I’ve explained, I do not in any way see how I rationally chose for the experience to happen.
It’s the nature of Love I come back to again and again, and the story of Jesus communicates it exactly. Somehow Love is there when you can sense it – but also when it seems to be absent. So Jesus senses the Love of (that at the same time actually is) his Father, but when he dies, that Love carries him through, and into the realm of myths, and into whatever resurrection lies beyond.
Take that conception of Love – that it is present even where you cannot imagine it to be, that it allows the death of its own son – and it becomes impossible to conceive of anyone or thing that definitively lacks it. And because that includes you yourself, you are given the confidence to stop worrying whether what you do falls inside or outside traditional definitions of morality.
I believe Paul is grasping at words to express this when he writes ‘To live is Christ, and to die is gain’. How can you hold anything against someone who, by hurting you, gives you only more of Christ, or Heaven itself? A morality of good actions versus bad ones is blown out of the water. Instead the whole of life becomes a celebration.
What do you think? I know Christianity, so I use examples from it, but I’m convinced this experience lies at the heart of all religions and none. It is wonderful, for example, to tell the story of evolution in terms of a celebration of Love. In this spirit I commend the work of the ‘new atheists’ to you. If you’ve never read Karen Armstrong, I’d recommend her, too – and Pete Rollins…
Steve L…I have read and enjoyed K. Armstrong’s ‘ History of God ‘and I do have her ‘A Short History of Myth’…she has an interesting life story as well…Sam Harris is definitely my go-to ‘New Atheist ‘guy,I’ve caught him being a little naive with certain scriptural interpretations,but nevertheless,a brilliant mind and a gentle spirit…on the other hand,Dawkins, which I have not read,but viewed some online material puts me in mind of St. Paul…I have a feeling they might be two peas in a pod,albeit one sweet,the other sour…take yr pick?.I was totally unaware of P. Rollins,checked out his site…interesting condiments for those who like their Borg Crossanwiches.
In the end,I’m enjoying my new found freedom that doesn’t equate my faith with my theology.My faith is my existential response to a profoundly compelling mystery.My theology is the house I invite my faith to live in…like all houses,there will be ongoing renovations.Thx for yr input.
“In the end,I’m enjoying my new found freedom that doesn’t equate my faith with my theology.My faith is my existential response to a profoundly compelling mystery.My theology is the house I invite my faith to live in…like all houses,there will be ongoing renovations.”
I like your description very much – it’s challenged me in good ways. So simple!
Thanks to you too.