Last night I had a very disturbing dream. In my dream there are many lesbians as a part of our community. In fact, it looks like the entire cast of the television show, The L Word. They are my dear friends, brothers and sisters of mine that I love and enjoy. But the disturbing part is when they decide they have to leave. They find that the institution is becoming increasingly unfriendly, unkind and adversarial for them, and that they feel they have no choice, really, but to leave. Well, they do have a choice: stay if you promise to change into something else, or leave if you won’t. I feel as though I must stay behind in order to encourage and nurture an inclusive community of love, so their departure feels permanent and painful. I weep with deep sorrow and wake up crying.
I immediately realize that this doesn’t just apply to gays, but to all kinds of people because of race, creed, religion, social status, economics, and even personality types. The lesbians in my dream represent, for me, all those who must continually struggle within community because they are different. They not only have to fight for a place, but for their basic rights. I long to experience a community of broad diversity, and it seems increasingly impossible to realize. Of course, this must have been what, in part, inspired today’s cartoon.
Contributions to nakedpastor are greatly appreciated.
David Hayward is a pastor artistically stripping to the essential.
ian…yr reply seems to be making the same arguement yr willing to give up,that homosexual behaviour wd be contrary to evolutionary survival. But it seems the phenomena is more documented than I originally assumed and appears to have evolutionary advantages…check out…http://www.nhm.uio.no/againstnature/index.html
Oh, dear Steve…
One of the many reasons why Christians are mocked in their belief is because those who defend the religion lacks knowledge, especially science.
No, not mocked BECAUSE of their lack of knowledge, but because of their lack of knowledge, they came up with horrible arguments and illogical stuff.
Here, something for you to munch on. Perhaps it would help.
And this is what some theological professors of the American Lutheran Church has to say about Bible and faith:
“We do not have faith in Jesus Christ because we believe in the Bible, but we trust in the Bible because the Holy Spirit has brought us to faith in Jesus Christ through the Bible.”
And I’m still munching on em.
Steve…I’m almost willing to agree,but our history has made me cautious ;^)…maybe you cd clarify what you mean by ‘trusted’…trusted for what?…to give us life-saving metaphors for faith or life-saving facts that science cd support.
Fif,
We’d better not agree on this…or the jig is up!
As far as the Christian faith goes…I don’t believe we can prove any of it. There are a lot of things in the Bible that can be proved historically and by archeology. But the main message that we are sinners saved by a God that has been resurrected from the dead and forgiven us …can’t be proven.
It doesn’t have to be. God is not after little automotons that are scared to death of Him. That’s what certain proof would do (God writing in the shy so that all could see it).
He is after trust..in Himself…that He is for us…in Christ Jesus.
Sound reasonable? (not that it has to)
Zefi,
I love science! I have nothing against science.
But the Christian faith is not science (I wanted to add ‘rocket’).
it is about faith. None of us could believe this without God giving us faith to believe it anyway!
Faith is a gift. it comes by hearing the Word of God. We can’t do this on our own.
Thanks my Friend!
– Steve
Steve..”it is about faith. None of us could believe this without God giving us faith to believe it anyway!”
So,this thing we call our faith is about God giving us faith to have faith in faith…I think I’m getting it….then again….mmmmmm!
Fif,
Missed it by that much. (Maxwell Smart)
Not faith in faith (although many Christians do that – they trust in their ‘decision’ for Christ or in ‘their acceptance’ of Christ)
Not faith in faith…but faith in Himself. Faith in God.
Steve…But,please clarify…Does it matter(to you) if any specific Biblical event is understood as metaphor or legend, if genuine faith in God is the response.
Fif,
“Does it matter(to you) if any specific Biblical event is understood as metaphor or legend, if genuine faith in God is the response?”
No. To me it does not matter.
God can and does create faith in Himself, when and where He wills.
Faith in God is all about Christ Jesus. We don’t worship the Bible. But the Bible is our source for all matters concerning the faith.
The Bible is the crib that the Christ child is laid in.
Steve…gee,I almost can’t believe what I’m reading..yr either a lot more liberal than I previously thot,or I’m misunderstanding…one more kick at the can and I’ll stop.
If I believe the Fall ,Atonement and the Resurrection to be either myth,metaphor,or legend,it doesn’t matter if the result is a geuine Faith in God?
FiF,
The instances (or stories) you brought up are central to story of Christ.
Anything is possible with God. But those stories ARE the story.
I believe that the scope of scripture tells us this:
We are in need of a Savior…and Christ is the Savior we need.
If one is able (by God’s grace) to come to faith apart from those crucial stories that would be great. But God has worked throught he writers of the Bible to get ‘in there’ what He wants known about Himself. And somehow He uses all this together in the transferance of faith from Himself to the believer.
I’d better stop now, before I lose myself…
Steve…yr not answering my question.so I don’t know whether to fall off my chair or not.But you say,”If one is able (by God’s grace) to come to faith apart from those crucial stories that would be great. But God has worked throught he writers of the Bible to get ‘in there’ what He wants known about Himself. And somehow He uses all this together in the transferance of faith from Himself to the believer.”
..and previously,”Anything is possible with God”.
My point is let’s not put limitations on the Great Editor….he may have other projects in his files.It’s not in our power to set those boundaries,nor is it necessary to believe in them. From what I’m reading,I think you cd agree.
FiF,
The Great Editor has chosen the Bible as the means to let us know wha t he wants us to know about Himself.
You can feel free to make up or conjer up other versions of Himself. But it may be a different Jesus. Jesus is the key. He said if you have seen me you have seen the Father.
You want to know what God is like… then look at Jesus.
God can do anything. he has chose the Bible as the means to reveal the knowledge og Himself to mankind.
Either one believes that Jesus is Lord and has forgiven them…or not.
I’m ceratinly not the judge of that. Only God knows the hearts of men and women.
That is about as close as I can come to answering your question with presuming too much on God’s part. (I think)
two fingered fast typing doesn’t work 2 well…
Yeah. Seems like the synchronization with the central processing unit is a bit off.
Steve…don’t forget,the author(s)of John seems to have given us a significantly different portrait of Jesus
FiF,
Very true. It doesn’t bother me a bit. I often point out to my inerrant Bible friends that some of what John wrote seemingly contradicts the other three.
For example; the book of Acts says that the Holy Spirit was given to the Disciples at Pentecost and John’s Gospel sayd it was the upper room. Well, which was it?
They agreed on the important things. That Jesus was God. That He came to forgive us. That He was crucified and raised from the dead, etc.
There are a few areas in the bible that maybe don’t match up exactly and to that I say…’so what?’
Those things in no way change the essential story of Jesus being God and forgiving us from the cross.
For me, anyway, that is enough.
Steve…I hear ‘ya,those discrepancies between similiar stories are numerous in the Gospels/Acts ,but when you say “essential story”,you seem to be saying something like ‘core story’.But,isn’t yr version of the story ,not so much essential,but somewhere on the timeline of a developing tradition that spanned the better part of a century.It wd be hard to teach that Jesus was God if we only had Mark.And I wd think it’s easy to imagine that some believers in the first century wd have something like that or less.
FiF,
Sorry for the hurried remark here (I’m late for church).
I just flipped open the bible to Mark and the first thing I saw was Jesus calming the storm. That alone is enough to make believers (in the hands of the Holy Spirit).
God can make the stones shout if He so desires.
Thanks FiF!
Ciao! (for now)
FiF, sorry for the late response, hope you’re still hangin in with this thread (I have faith we can put it over 200…;).
I surely hope that there more ‘evidence’ than what you provided. A while back I visited a friend who managed a very large dairly farm. There I witness females cows humping eachother. Even if that were for pleasure (which, if I understand cow anotomy, doesn’t even work) the farmer told us that they do this because they are in heat. It’s instint. Without diving into wether or not animals have souls (which I don’t believe) or are even self aware (which I’m also fairly certain they are not), why should I compare instint, non-ceribrial behavior (at best purely sexual) to human?
Are you saying that homosexuality is purely sexual? That humans engage in same-sex relations because they are so horny they can’t control themselves? I have quite a few gay friends, and have had substantive conversations with many of them, and one of the things I gleaned, was that most of their relationships where NOT sex based. At least the ones who were in commited long-term relationships, and also weren’t necessarily of the stereotypical ‘flaming’ variety.
ian…I wasn’t trying to provide definitive evidence for a biological basis for homosexulity,but the link was meant to suggest what materials are easily accessiible if one was genuinely interested in the data…Wikipedia has a fair amount of material as well. As for me,I accept the premise,I don’t have a doctrine of scripture that prevents me from understanding what my eyes and ears tell me…in short,when I watch and listen to the life stories of effeminate men or masculine women,I accept what I’m receiving as a reality,gays and lesbians are people who are born to eventuall y be attracted to their own sex.Honestly,I know less of bi-sexuality and other sexual orientation issues,but one soon learns to throw a wide net . As well, it seems you’ve answered yr own point about whether or not it’s only about the sex drive,as I read yr comments of yr gay friends
I read several times in the comments here that we are ALL SINNERS…..well, just to add my two cents worth, although anyone is free to disagree, but if we are Christians, then WE ARE NOT SINNERS! We may sin or miss the mark, but a sinner is one who habitually sins and feels no sense of wrong about it. We, as Christians have been given a clean heart, a new nature. Although we may sin from time to time, because we are only human and still growing in grace, God does not see us as sinners. He sees us cleansed by the blood of Jesus. We may sin, but our hearts feel sorrow over it, and in most cases, true believers will turn from that sin as the Holy Spirit helps to set them free.
When the Scriptures say that ALL HAVE SINNED, that is a true statement. We all fell short of God’s glory, but when we accepted Jesus Christ as our Lord, we now share in that glory because we are one with Him. Understand what I am saying…..we do not take His glory, but we share in it because He is now in us and we are in Him. The Father is glorified in the Son and we are now one with the Son. When the Father looks at us, He does not see our imperfections, He sees Jesus.
In my opinion, and again, anyone is free to disagree….but, when we habitually practice something we know is wrong and sinful, and contrary to Scripture, without feeling remorse or sorrow over it, can we even truly say that Jesus is our Lord? I have gay and lesbian friends who I love deeply, but I would never say what they are doing is right, nor give them the impression that it is acceptable behavior. At the same time, I would never look down or them or be cruel toward them. They are human beings just like us and we all deserve respect. I look at homosexuality the same way I would look at adultry or any other sin. When we, as Christians confront sin, we are not personally attacking the person or persons involved in that sin. We are just stating a fact. I agree that issues like this should be dealt with in the Church Body…..a little leaven leavens the whole. Wasn’t there a person in Corinth that was put out of the church because of immorality? It doesn’t say people were put out for lying or gluttony or stealing, but it does say they were put out for immorality, so this does show that there are some things that the Holy Spirit wants dealt with immediately, while some of the other issues are taken care of over time. The thing that is of utmost importance is that, it needs to be handled in love, but love without compromise.
I know many of you will probably disagree with this, and that is the great thing about freedom, but this is my view on the entire issue.