I haven’t written in a while. I’m sorry. Maybe you’re not. I would like to write more often. I do have people insisting that I should just shut up and draw. My cartoons and my art says enough, they say. Perhaps my art and cartoons are incarnational. After all, the Word did become flesh. But that flesh did speak. So I think words are sometimes necessary. Like St. Francis of Assisi said, “Preach the gospel always. If necessary use words.” So today is one of those days when I feel I need to write something.
I’ve been reading some theology lately. Doped up following my nose surgery has lent itself to metaphysical thinking. I’m still slightly dopey. My mornings are okay, but as the day progresses my head begins to pound right behind my nose and eyes until the point of exhaustion. I pop some pills and that helps, theologically speaking.
I’ve met recently with a couple of friends who have left the local church and the faith as well. I love them, totally respect them, and listen hard to what they are saying. I’m interested in what they are reading and what they believe now. I’m fascinated by it. I think it is important for me to listen to what they believe and why. I think it is crucial to listen to what Hitchens and Harris and Dawkins are saying. I think it is necessary for me to listen to what science is saying. Evolutionists. Mystics. New Agers. Universalists. Syncretists. Neo-Gnostics. Everyone.
You know, in the earliest church, the Fathers contested with people with differing views as though they were a diverse and dissenting part of the larger community. I think, for instance, Irenaeus, when he challenged the Gnostics, betrayed a humble deference toward them. At the earliest point there was no clear line of division that separated the “heretics” from the “orthodox”. This came later with the councils and creeds. They mingled together in the same communities and churches. I personally think it is important to work towards a clear theology. Faith seeks understanding. But I also believe it is important and even required by charity to permit all voices an audience and to see all people and opinions as typical of a diverse community striving towards love and health.
When you think of it, when Paul said in the Corinthian correspondence that one prophet should speak; then when another stands up to speak the first one should be quiet and sit down; and that the content of what they say is held up to scrutiny, discerned and judged by the community… wasn’t Paul implicitly giving room for heresy? The root of heresy literally means an opinion that is contrary to another. Later it came to mean a belief that is contrary to the orthodox doctrine or the most popularly held opinion. I think we need to listen to more apparently “heretical” views because I personally believe that much of what is popularly held as true is in fact false and needs to be challenged by opposing views.
And, as Forrest said, “That’s all have to say about that.”
The photograph is a cropped version of my friend’s, Mark Hemmings, photo, “Kendo Fighters”.
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David Hayward is an artist trapped in a pastor's body, stripping to the essential.
Is there any other way to listen? And when I say we need to listen to them, I mean not to find their flaws but to hear the truth in what they are trying to communicate.
Laura,
You are not a/the bad guy and I am not a victim.
In fact, I have never been a victim in my life. I try to live by Victor Frankl’s saying:::
“There is one thing you can never take from me, and that is my freedom to choose how I will react to whatever you do to me.”
I have had many things said about me on this blog site–I have had a couple of folks hint that I should leave and one ask me to go. That doesn’t make them bad guys, and it doesn’t make me a victim.
By the way, instead of seeing you as the “bad guy,” many folks in this site would consider you a hero if you could shut me up for a week.
Well, we are in blizzard conditions here, so I think I will go take a nap.
MAKE IT a great day.
fishon
Again Fishon, wasn’t trying to shut you up. Just asked you to make a conscious decision to post one pleasant comment a week.
Why not just give it a go and see what happens?
SV- LOL! I’m aware of my gender. I just think “bad girl” has entirely different implication than the one I was trying to make.
I know – just thought I would try make you laugh
Dear fishon,
This is kind of wierd. If I want you to respond to my comment, e-mail you, because you promised someone else you wouldn’t respond to any more blogs until after Christmas–and this after responding to a blog and asking me fore a reply? I’m sure you don’t mean it that way, but it almost sounds kind of juvenile. Anyway, if you feel you need to answer me and don’t care to through this medium, feel free to e-mail me at pastor-john@comcast.net
Because He lives,
John Fariss
SV- you did!
Your quotations is an interesting one. Let me highlight certain interesting things so that they’re clearer:
Some time ago Theudas appeared, claiming to be somebody, and about four hundred men rallied to him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it all came to nothing.
He too was killed, and all his followers were scattered.
It seems to me Gamaliel was saying, if this division that these men brought was not of divine origin, someone would come and oppose them and have them removed.
Ops, bad tag. The above should be like this:
Some time ago Theudas appeared, claiming to be somebody, and about four hundred men rallied to him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it all came to nothing.
After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed, and all his followers were scattered.
It seems to me Gamaliel was saying, if this division that these men brought was not of divine origin, someone would come and oppose them and have them removed.
We can listen to find the truth they communicate, but sometimes the truth they think they are communicating is not truth.
Preference has nothing to do with facts. I’m glad for you, if you are able to find much goodness in yourself, while I, as much as I know myself, knows exactly how wretched a person I am.
Perhaps you do not require saving, but I do.
You, who are healthy do not need the Doctor. He is for the sick, like me.
God doesn’t help those who help themselves; He helps those who are helpless. But then again, that’s the God I came to know. I don’t know about yours.
Zefi, that sounds incredibly condescending. Just saying.
Well, before that you seemed to be requesting the proof of you being judgemental. You seem to say “where the hell did you get the idea of me being judgement from the things I said???” or something like that. Now, asking for a proof of being judgemental and confessing of being judgemental is two different issues altogether.
Oh well, then I apologize for mistaking the sentence as a request for proof.
It seems like we have a confusion here. My bad. I expect you to understand what I meant by “believe” since you said you’re an ex-Christian. You said that you were a believer in, and was a follower of Jesus the Christ, the one spoken of in the NT. Now, if I’m correct, what you meant is that you subscribed to the idea that there’s this real, historical Fella, God incarnate, died for the sins of mankind, conquered death and rose again on the third day. If so, that was not my question.
Believing in Jesus Christ is not like believing there is a 10th planet in the Solar System. It’s like believing in your dad, or mom, or George W. Bush. I’m asking whether you’ve experienced Jesus, that you’ve “met” Him. Gosh, I hope I didn’t sound like an occult.
You said you don’t blame anyone, and then you go on saying all these things. Bob, a rose by any other name is still a rose.
But then, whatever you say Bob, whatever you say.
I think you guessed wrongly what you’re trying to say. From the moment I read your reply to Steve’s very polite reply, I knew you’re not looking for any “proof of exceptional, very different goodness.” If you forgot how you replied him, scroll up.
I don’t know much about you, but from the very little that you wrote, you only read what people wrote the way you want to read it, which is of course not a bad thing in itself. The issue is, no matter how one replies, whether politely and patiently and lovinly like how Steve did, or judgementally and provocative like mine, you’d still label us as undesirable and “the proof that Christianity did not change the world for the better(this is a hyperbole).” And again, if you forgot how you replied him, scroll up.
There’s one thing I think you’re ACTUALLY, REALLY looking for in a Christian is tolerance. In certain areas, fine. But in other areas where 1+1 is =2, tolerance is ridiculous, because 1+1 is =2 even if you want it to be 3. If you find this sentence confusing or irrelevant to you, then don’t bother. If you get it, you get it. If you don’t, you don’t. That’s the least of tolerance I’m able to show.
Should I assume that you know it was an analogy?
I didn’t say that you hate Christians. Did I even implied that? I hope I didn’t. If I did, I’m sorry. I don’t want to be putting words into your mouth.
Of course there would be no difference between those who believe in the idea that they have the Holy Spirit living in them, and those who don’t believe in the idea. There is only REAL difference in those who ACTUALLY have the Holy Spirit in them. Believing yourself to be an immortal won’t make you one. (another analogy)
If you’re really serious about looking for real Christians whose lives were changed by the Holy Spirit, don’t bother looking for them on the internet or your previous church (since you seem to imply that you hardly find a convincing specimen there). If this Christianity thing is truly life-changing, do you think these changed people would still waste their time hanging around here? They’ll be doing serious work in this badly-stricken world! Do you think they have time for the internet??? Okay, maybe a few. But the rest would be us bad, so-called-Christians-but-don’t-seem-to-be-any-different-from-you to entertain you and to rough you up.
Hey, you want to be convinced of a life-changing Christianity? You’re looking at all the wrong places.
If you want to be convinced, start researching. Well, only if you REALLY want to be convinced.
Anyway, amidst the disagreements and all, I BELIEVE that you’ve learned something today, that you were a Christianitarian like me, and not a Christian.
Be specific David, which part?
The one where I said I’m sick?
Or the part where I said the God that I came know is one who defends the helpless?
Or simply for the fact that I was being factually intolerant?
Your comment about yourself seems to place yourself firmly in what you believe is the correct theological position and the other outside of it.
But I learned that from you.
Zefi,
.)
fishon
Zefi,
Re: your 12/20 5:25 comment, it looks to me as though you are making some leaps of logic here. If Gamaliel meant that what these men promoted, “was not of divine origin, someone would come and oppose them and have them removed,” which you seem to suggest means “kill,” why did’nt Gamaliel draw that specific conclusion? He didn’t, and only said that if what they proposed was of human origin, it would fail, and if of divine origin, “you” would find yourself strrieving against God. I hesitate to go where you went. Maybe I am reading too much into your answer, but you seem to be saying that if someone is opposing God, “someone” has a duty and responsible to step into the fray and “oppose” them. Of course then, we get into the whole issue of how you know something is opposed to God. Some things are obvious–if one advocates for instance something in opposition to the clear teaching of the Bible, such as that murder is good, that compassion is evil, or extramarital sex is permissible; but some other matters are less clear, such as which political party is on God’s side, or whether consuming beverage alcohol in moderation. What exactly did you mean?
John
Whoops–the next to last sentence should have been, “Some things are obvious–if one advocates for instance something in opposition to the clear teaching of the Bible, things like that murder is good, that compassion is evil, or extramarital sex is permissible; but some other matters are less clear, such as which political party is on God’s side, or whether consuming beverage alcohol in moderation is a sin. It is when Christians get (or appear to get) dogmatic over such debatable matters that all Christians get villified, and often loose credibility with the unsaved.”
John
Zefi
If youre such a piece of shit, why not just kill yourself and hurry up and get to heaven?
WHOA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DO NOT DO THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That is so NOT cool titfortat!!!!!!
My, my. I troubled myself finding a less extreme word and finally decided to use the word “removed,” and here someone’s saying that I seem to suggest a “killing” (should I assume you meant physically?) Correct me if I’m wrong, but when you questioned why he didn’t draw that specific conclusion, did you actually meant why he didn’t state it explicitly? If that’s what you meant, well, I don’t know. Maybe it’s not a state-level speech competition?
What I was trying to address was YOUR leap of logic. Or so I thought. I interpreted your intention at quoting that verse as saying, “Don’t oppose these people. If they’re wrong, they will just fall away without anyone opposing them.” And that is not true, because those people fell away partly because someone took to task to oppose them.
But now that I re-read it, either I misinterpreted what you’re trying to say, or you’ve quoted the wrong verse as a response to Fishon’s. Romans 16:17 talks about avoidance, and Gamaliel seems to imply the same thing. Seems like your verse is supporting Fishon’s argument, or was that your intention all along?
Oh, cool down Laura. Either someone’s using his nick, or he’s just showing his very true colours, or he’s just testing me, seeing how I would react. Let’s just give him the benefit of doubt, shall we?
My, my. What interesting logic you have. So, just because I know I’m wretched, I’m a piece of shit? Is that the result of the “elitist” mentality of “I prefer Human beings who see themselves as inherently good, not inherently bad,” that whosoever cannot see themselves as such should “kill themselves [and hurry up and get to heaven]?”
Well, perhaps you’re right. Perhaps I’m a piece of shit. If so, I’m grateful all the more that God should come to save a piece of shit like me. That is the other half of the story I’ve yet to tell. And I never knew how glad I am to not having to live in a humanistic society. Today, I do.
I just hope that you don’t go around telling people, “if you think you’re bad, you might as well go and die!” Please spare my future brothers and sisters.
Wretched, piece of shit……..Semantics
I just hope that you don’t go around telling people, “if you think you’re bad, you might as well go and die!†(Zefi)
I only say that to the people who think that their life is wretched and they “know” that it gets better when they die.
I will wish you a merry christmas though.
zeif said – Believing in Jesus Christ is not like believing there is a 10th planet in the Solar System. It’s like believing in your dad, or mom, or George W. Bush. I’m asking whether you’ve experienced Jesus, that you’ve “met†Him.
You are asking me if I have “met” and “experienced” Jesus, in the past, when I claimed to have been a believer? The only reason I use the term “believer” is because when I use the term “Christian” to describe my past, some Christians accuse me of never having been a “true” Christian. Of course, some may accuse me of never having “truly” believed, but I tend to get less of that than when I say I am a former Christian.
Anyway, I am getting the feeling that I am on the verge of being told that I was not what I thought I was (a “true” Christian).
I can answer your questions. No, I never “met” Jesus, nor did I ever “experience” Jesus. But…BUT…when I was a believer, I was confident that I had met and experienced Jesus. Now though, as I look back, and since I no longer believe it is possible to experience or meet a man who died 2,000 years ago, I now understand that what I thought was “experience” was instead, emotions and faith.
zefi said – There’s one thing I think you’re ACTUALLY, REALLY looking for in a Christian is tolerance. In certain areas, fine. But in other areas where 1+1 is =2, tolerance is ridiculous, because 1+1 is =2 even if you want it to be 3.
Your analogy is lost on me. You will have to be specific if you are going to want me to believe that I have ever wanted you to ignore mathematical certainties.
zefi said – If you’re really serious about looking for real Christians whose lives were changed by the Holy Spirit, don’t bother looking for them on the internet or your previous church (since you seem to imply that you hardly find a convincing specimen there).
Please tell me where I need to look? I live in a small town in southwestern Virginia, USA. Where am I to start?
zefi said – If this Christianity thing is truly life-changing, do you think these changed people would still waste their time hanging around here? They’ll be doing serious work in this badly-stricken world! Do you think they have time for the internet???
I have no idea.
zefi said – Okay, maybe a few. But the rest would be us bad, so-called-Christians-but-don’t-seem-to-be-any-different-from-you to entertain you and to rough you up.
?
zefi said – Anyway, amidst the disagreements and all, I BELIEVE that you’ve learned something today, that you were a Christianitarian like me, and not a Christian.
Actually, I was a Christian, not a “Christianitarian”. I don’t know what that is.
ok guys !…line up for foot-washin’
Zefi. ok…I’ll chill. I just really, really, really, really hate the idea of anyone killing themselves. and for someone to actually tell someone, joking or not, to do that, is just assine to me. Completely unacceptable in every circumstance. EVER…it shoud never be tolerated.
that’s me chilled on this subject by the way.
Of course it gets better when we die. But I think it’ll be such a waste to miss the process of getting there. It’s not any less beautiful than the destination.
I’m just glad I’m not your kid. But then again, I don’t think you’ll ever want a kid like me. Heh. But even if out of your compassion and kindness that you would actually accept me, I don’t fancy having my dad one day telling me, “If you’re such a piece of shit, why not just kill yourself and hurry up and get to heaven?”
Believe it or not, but I can certainly identify with that! Coming from a Chinese culture that would bow down to anything that would prolly provide good things, what you just described seems like something I’m very familiar with. It’s almost like an imaginative friend, aye?
So, what you’re saying is, much more than other Christians not showing persuasive proof of lives changed from an encounter with Jesus, it is the lack of change in your own even after feeling confident that you’ve met and experienced Him that caused you to decide to stop believing? Or there has been changes in your life after you became a Christian, but you found out that these can easily be explained away?
Well, I don’t know. I guess it was just me being delusional. There’s prolly no millions of Spirit-filled and Spirit-changed Christians. No such people in the underground churches in Communist countries, no addicts who turned a new leaf after encountering Jesus (miraculously, though to what extent this has to be, to be accepted as a convincing proof by you is unknown), no news site links of such things, nothing! Well, let’s not talk about those Koreans who went to Afghanistan and got themselves abducted. That’s just sheer naivety, and that’s not the kind of proof you’re looking for, aye?
?