So the other night I met with a friend. He was going on about how great our church is, that it is a place where he can be real, authentic, and heard. Good solid teaching. Good music. Etc., etc.. So finally I asked him: “If it’s such a great church then why can we not only attract people, but we are losing people too? If it’s such a great place, why don’t people come? And why won’t people stay?” Immediately he said, “Well David, you don’t offer any magic! You don’t serve any candy! If you offered some of that the leak would stop and you would grow! But you won’t, will you!?”
No! I guess not. I won’t because I can’t. Been there done that! I’ve seen behind the curtain and I’ve read the ingredients. The girl’s sawn in two and we have cavities! Magic and candy work, and I know they work. But it’s not worth it. I’m not going to do it. I will not do magic. I won’t serve candy. If that means what it might mean, so be it. Some feel I just have a bad attitude. Sometimes I wonder that myself. I could compromise a little, couldn’t I?, and enjoy a measure of success. The way some deal with the dilemma is they go to another church at another time which they say has the magic and serves the candy, then they come to our church at the regular time for what they think they actually need. Whatever. We’ll see what happens.
Contributions to nakedpastor are greatly appreciated.
David Hayward is a pastor artistically stripping to the essential.
Who’s measure of success?
I think you know in your heart you’re on the right track. That’s why your questioning it.
You know there are more than one way to deliver a message.
Ex: You can say to someone, “Oh my god, your liver’s shot! Good luck with trying to get it better!” OR you can say ” Luckily your kidneys, gallbladder and spleen are in good shape, mind you the liver needs some work. So we better get you some good information in regards to healing so that you can start feeling better.” The message is that the liver is in need of help, but the way it was delivered make all the difference in regards to how the person will react to the news and what they might do about it.
So it’s not a question of sugar coating the truth, or making it sound “magical”, maybe it is simply a question of how it is delivered.
It is wise to choose words wisely, for they can be powerful!
Sir,
Having been away from the net lately, I have read a collection of your recent posts all at once (including the cartoons, which I think are great), and a question occurred to me. If the question is too personal or too obvious because of my lack of awareness as a new fan of your nakedness, please forgive me. But, are these posts reflective of a crisis of call? Are you experiencing the time-honored dilemma of wondering if its worth it; questioning not only the motives and integrity of your church members, but your own as well? Are you being tempted to come down off the cross and save yourself, but knowing that if you do you will lose who God has called you to be? I know, I know. That’s more than one question, but I hope you get the point. And the point is, I have been there too. And I’m praying for you.
‘The pastor’s crucifixion takes this form: to work in a calling where the results are by nature invisible, where the harvest is hidden from our eyes in the heavenly wedding hall, and where we now sludge forward with only faith that what we do matters at all.’ – Paul Gregory Alms, from ‘Wearing the Cross’ in Touchstone magazine, October 2005, p.18.
Yours,
Lee
So David, why do the ones who stay… stay?
I am a member of a small congregation where God’s Word of Law and Gospel are faithfully proclaimed and the sacraments administered in accordance with that Word.
In the 11 years I have been there we have not grown. People come and they go. Many do not like the way we do things…no candy, no magic, no catering to the desires of people at the expense of God’s Word.
The Lord keeps the doors open.
Some people say, “if you did this or that you’d bring in more people”. And sacrifice what? Turn into what? Another “Christian” floor show?
“Two thousand people go to our church on Sunday!” And I ask, “what are you doing wrong? Christianity has never been that popular…you must be doing something wrong”.
Besides that…the San Diego Chargers down the road apiece are bringing in 60,000 on a Sunday…you guys had better get busy and ramp up the dog and pony show. Dancing poodles might bring in a few more hundred…”
You have to be who you are. Do what God is calling you to do. Keep following him.
For what it’s worth, a friend of mine once told me that you can tell if you are truly being called by how you answer the question, “could you honestly be doing anything else?”. Could you live with yourself if you sold a little more magic?
It is perplexing and sad. Why don’t people just want to come and hear the Word spoken and celebrate their relationship with God they experienced during the week with their fellow believers? Why don’t they just come to church to get to know their “family,” spend time with them, pray with them and then help meet their needs when they come up? Why do they rely on the hour and a half once a week as their only spiritual sustenance and “experience” with God? I wonder…..
I appreciate the candy & magic theory, and I’m sure that it’s true that some people aren’t attracted and some aren’t staying for that very reason but it’s only an answer that applies – for the most part – to church people. Some people are ‘church people’ who have never even been to church but they definitely crave the candy & magic. But the truth is God is calling people, drawing people to himself and the question I have to ask myself and our community is how can we build authentic relationships that will connect us with the people God’s connecting with? If people become part of the community because of relationship/love, they seldom develop the taste for magic candy.
nakedpastor,
Thank you for your honesty! Thank you for taking the risk to tell the full story of your experience. I am a pastor who is not interested in publicity or babysitting. I will not sale out to shallow church growth tactics nor am I interested in babysitting a bunch of whiny babies who aren’t interested in the bigger picture of building up the Kingdom of God on earth.
I live in an area where faith is status quo. Church is a given and a badge of honor. I have been called to challenge the status quo. That my friend, as you know, is not a popular goal. I am thankful for your blog. You make me laugh when I need laughter the most. You have helped me to discern what is real and what is not in the ministry I am currently serving. Keep sharing your gifts and talents!
Thanks,
Laughing Pastor
Thanks for sharing this thought. There’s alot going on in churches lately and they frustrate me too. I think too often we want churches to fill an emotional hole and aren’t interested so much in the messages. I think too often pastors fill the role of low paid therapists and counselors. So when you aren’t willing to cater to these felt needs, then they leave for someone who will…
How’s that for a half-formed insight, more caffeine needed for further reflection!
FB
Is it possible that in our desire to have a serious, sincere, more than surface level faith, we as individuals or churches get stuck back in Romans 7 (i.e., recognizing and wrestling with our fallenness and depravity — “What a wretched man I am!”)? The message here is one of law, brokenness, slavery, and condemnation.
Perhaps some of the “magic” people are looking for is the good news/gospel of Romans 8 — i.e., the answer to the question, “Who will deliver me from this body of death?” The answer? “Thanks be to God–through Jesus Christ our Lord!” Since…”Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.” The message here is one grace, restoration, freedom, and redemption.
So…do we blame the Samaritans for not showing up at the temple, or do we compromise our standards, get messy, and take the temple to them?
I think too often pastors fill the role of low paid therapists and counselors. So when you aren’t willing to cater to these felt needs, then they leave for someone who will…
(fogster)
Must get some of that stuff your drinking buddy…very good comment…can’t wait for your next caffiene inspired insights. Thinking of becoming a shrink myself. At least then I’ll get paid decently!
David, please forgive me if I’m being dim, but would you please clarify what you mean by magic & candy? Thanks
Kim
so, you mean to tell me its just “JESUS” an NO trick or treating? (magic or candy)
Jeepers, what will the saints do with their masks?
Abundant Blessings
Frankie G
Bikers for Christ
Are you experiencing the time-honored dilemma of wondering if its worth it; questioning not only the motives and integrity of your church members, but your own as well? Are you being tempted to come down off the cross and save yourself, but knowing that if you do you will lose who God has called you to be-(two10five)
Don’t konow about David but that’s exactly where I am at and that might be the reason his writings resonate so much with me. Good to know I might reach another stage. Maybe I’ll then move on to “the clothed pastor”. I might even end up becoming a fan of “well dressed pastor”:-).
“Candy and magic,” someone has a gift for a well-turned phrase, and I like it. Having responded to your “Is It Real?” piece, I think you may know where I stand. I can add that I have heard things from disgruntled members, who although not as gifted, said as much. At one dysfunctional church I served, a member said (in public) to me, “We want you to study your Bible, and have an experience of God, then come and tell us about it, so we can get excited!” I was immediately reminded of Exodus 20: 18-19, “When the people saw the thunder and lightning and heard the trumpet and saw the mountain in smoke, they trembled with fear. They stayed at a distance and said to Moses, ‘Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die’.” Could this be at least some of what is going on at your church? A lot of people want anything but to be real, authentic, and heard. The Isrealites didn’t, people at that church I served didn’t, and I’m sure some at yours don’t. And these are the people we are called to minister to and serve along side of before God. No wonder we as ministers get burnt out.
I don’t know how long you have been at this church, but some things just take more time than I, at least, am comfortable with. I once had a pastor-friend tell me that the church he served just limped along for the first four years he was there, some coming, some going, and the church just stagnating. Then, and without any change on his part, the church started to grow and get healthy. He believed that it was because the church had a history of short pastorates, which discouraged the people, and until he “proved” he was there for the long haul (and for whatever reason, “4 years” was the magic number there), they were unwilling to get serious about church. The longest period I stayed with a dysfunctional church was 8 years (although some of the shorter ones seemed like much longer), and I never experienced it. But where I am now at, it has happened. I came here in 2004, and for about 6 months, we had some growth (mostly biological). Then people started leaving; some were in the normal course of moving (in my area, we have a lot of military and government employees, and 2-4 years is as long as many of them get to stay) and some were because of personal moral failures, but others just were not “satisfied.” They drifted away, some to a church in our area where the phrase “candy and magic” fits well. Worship attendance dwindled, as did church finances. But since early 2008, that trend has began to reverse. Atendance is up significantly, some of those who drifted away have returned, and new people are showing up. And I am doing the same things now that I have done in 22 years in ministry!
So, I guess I’m saying, you need to take a good long look at some things. Are you being faithful to what God has called you to do? How long have you been there–and is it possible that God will move people when they recognize your faithfulness? Is your church healthy, or dysfunctional, and if so, to what extent? (Which should tell you if and how you need to alter your ministry style to reach those folks, or if dealing with that is not your gift, would someone else would be effective–and in all, how is God speaking to you through the situation?) If your church/congregation is open to transparency (and you are comfortable enough with it), what would happen if you shared your concerns with them? In some BUT NOT ALL churches, that could have a catlyzing effect. And I would also ask: how are you ministering to yourself through it all? If you have nothing left inside, you won’t have anything to give away, so you MUST refresh yourself. I assume your art can help you there, emphasis on “can.” My daughter is an artist, so I am somewhat familiar with the so-called “artistic temperment,” and at least in her case, there is an element of truth to the sterrotype; therefore the very gifts that make one a good artist can also hurt, at least in the short term. So what are you doing for yourself?
Bro, I have you in my prayers.
Because He lives,
John
Since I am not a church goer…nor a Christian, when I read David’s dilemma I often relate it to my photography club, in which I am currently president. People come and go, but mostly stay. We get a few new members every couple years, loose one or two every couple years, but pretty much have leveled off at about 15-20 people at our monthly meetings.
Some in the club throw out ideas of how we can increase our membership. I listen, but largely ignore their suggestions. I don’t want to “try” to increase membership. I have no interest in getting more people to come to our club. I enjoy those we have, and when a new member shows up, I learn to enjoy their friendship also. Many in the club I have known for more than 10 years.
When one stops coming, I wonder why, and may send them an email stating that I have missed them, but that’s about the extent of my dilemma as to why they stopped coming.
So, why is David upset about dwindling church membership, while I have very little concern about photography club membership?
BTW, I am not being sarcastic or condescending. I really like David and hate knowing he is struggling so.
Thanks Dave,
that hit home – we have the same struggle in our community.
Jon
Bob,
The Christian Church on earth exists (primarily) for those who are not yet members.
‘Job one’ of the Church is to proclaim the forgiveness of sins, life and salvation… to the world (sinners) that they might come to a living faith in the person of Christ.
There are many other reasons, also, but that is the main mission.
hello there
like the first commenter, I saw the word “success” in your post – it depends on the definition.
personally, I don’t want candy or magic. I’d like to hear the gospel preached, and I’d like to be in a community of people *trying* to live that gospel, be more like Jesus, and love one another and the people we meet on our journeys.
even the churches who offer magic and candy experience in and out flow of people. it’s human nature. we get bored, offended, we move house, we get married or divorced.
I don’t mean to trivialise the seriousness of what you write about, but I wonder how all this movement looks to God? I wonder what He thinks about the human spin we put on His very simple message.
blessings, and thanks as always for sharing what you’re thinking. It’s always thought-provoking
Steve, my question remains unanswered – “So, why is David upset about dwindling church membership, while I have very little concern about photography club membership?”
I am assuming that those, (or most of those) that leave his church are Christians. Why would that be upsetting to David, when I am not upset when my photography club looses a few members?
I welcome any thoughts on this.
lets_reason@yahoo.com
Bob
I would imagine that typically you dont share quite as much on a personal level that a Pastor would. Photographers generally talk about Photos. Pastors generally talk about life and death issues with their congregants. I think for most that would be a little more sensitive and personal. So I can fully understand why he feels the way he does.
Titfortat,
So, you feel that he is discouraged about people leaving the church because…what…they were close personal friends? People he has shared his deep thoughts with over the years? That is perfectly understandable. I would be sad if I lost close friends. There are some in my club I have gotten very close to and socialize often with outside of club activities. I would be sad if they left the club. But there are some in in the club who I have nothing to do with outside of the club. If they stopped coming, I would not feel anything. If the club dwindled down to 6 or 8 people, from its 20 members, I would actually enjoy it more, especially if it were 6-8 of my closest friends.
I have no idea how many people are in Davids church. I wonder how he would feel if everyone left except, perhaps, his closest and dearest friends? Those who’s company he enjoyed the most? How would you feel, Titfortat? Thoughts?
Bob
Thats about as far as I go in psycho analyzing how David feels
I own a business with my wife, so in that sense I feel his pain, but thats probably as far as it goes.
“I own a business with my wife, so in that sense I feel his pain…”
Perhaps, just for my benefit, you could explain what you mean? What does owning a business have to do with what David is going through?
Bob
People work for us, we get to know them quite well and they move on. Very much like the Church, other than most Churches make more money than we do
Hi David,
I am new to your blog (which I like very much), so if my comment doesn’t fit your experience then ignore it.
A couple of thoughts. People stay or leave primarily because of relationships. I saw a study a number of years ago that proved that those who have fewer than five good relationships in a church will generally not be there two years from now. Survey your people, see how many good friends they have at church. See if there is a concern there that needs to be addresses.
Secondly, people get excited about a vision. What is your vision for where your church is going to be five years from now? What things are you doing well that you want to build on? If there is a vision and an excitement about that vision, then people will be looking for excuses to stay, and looking to bring friends to share in that excitement.
“Where there is no vision the people perish” – Proverbs 29:18
So perhaps the vision is the candy, and the relationships are the magic that will get your church growing again.