This cartoon was inspired in part by this interview of Ray Boltz. Plus I have friends.
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Fishon, although it is true we don’t agree on this issue – all I am asking is for your position to explain itself more fully than a 5 word sentence that basically condemns the gay person to hell – regardless of love.
Jodi, you may not agree with Soulforce – and you dont have to – but they are telling the other side of the story in this issue – one that many of us straight people fail to consider…are they unbiblical…I don’t think I can make that call for them.
I agree with Wendy a lot on this issue (I had a 155 pts only). I imagine people that are gay and read this have to be offended by the way we are dealing with this issue – I am not sure it does much to include gay people in our communities as much at is excluding them still.
I personally don’t like the fact the church cannot accept people that are gay – it shuns them like it’s a sin worse than any we have committed. But if Jesus is accepting – then why aren’t we? If Jesus died for all – then why aren’t we?
SocietyVs,
I wrote a fairly exhaustive reply to you. I have decided not to send it because it would cause a parsing of points that we will not overcome. However, I will answer this way.
You and I see God from a cavernous gap as we stand each on our different sides.
You and I do not see scripture in the same light.
You and I do not see sin from the same perspective out of the same Book.
You and I understand love, on some levels, quite differently.
However, here is what I mean by:::Love um right into hell, will you, SocietyVs.
Remember, I am not writing a theological paper, so some of the parts of salvation will not be included. This responce is about your question, not….
Practicing homosexuality is sin.
Practicing murder is a sin.
Practicing adultry is a sin.
Practicing gossip is a sin.
Etc.
If someone calls themself a Christian, but continues in their {WILLFUL} practice of a particular sin, they are in clear danger of “not inheriting the kingdom of God {Gal. 5:21}. I don’t care if it is homosexuality or drunkedness–sin is sin.
Love from a biblical perspective will come along that backslidder and point out that they are in danger of hell, not to condemn, but to help them from eternal damnation. That is why Paul warns again and again in the letters to forsake sin– and it is Christians he is addressing.
You on the other hand, apparently do NOT see practicing homosexuality as sin. So, with that you have no need to warn them that they are in danger. BUT, if you think that practicing homosexuality is sin and can lead them to hell, but you don’t tell them, that is NOT love, but being a coward.
And man is standing on a bridge ready to jump. One person says, “I love you and you have every right to jump. Is there anything I can do for you? Is their any words you would like me to tell your loved ones?” Some call that love.
I on the other hand will try and get them down–and if it takes telling them about the awful mess they are going to make when they hit, the pain they will cause others, and the sudden stop they will make, I will do it–why? Because I love them enough to tell the the truth of what will happen when they make the final move.
You seem to think that homosexuality isn’t a sin–so no need to stop it.
I know it is by the Word of God– and hell is the reason to stop.
I have not done a good job of explaining my self, but you get the just of what I mean. You knew all along, anyway.
I do know this. When you love um so much that you won’t tell them of the dangers of hell———YOU HAD BETTER BE RIGHT.
fishon
fishon
I know it is by the Word of God– and hell is the reason to stop.
Im curious fishon, have you learned Greek, Hebrew and aramaic? And if you have, have you studied the scriptures that supposedly refer to “homosexuality” to see the context and what it is you purport them to say? Also have you researched the idea of Hell and if it has its roots in Christianity or Judaism? I am wondering if you base your ideas about Hell and Homosexuality only from your reading of an English Bible?
“You on the other hand, apparently do NOT see practicing homosexuality as sin. So, with that you have no need to warn them that they are in danger. BUT, if you think that practicing homosexuality is sin and can lead them to hell, but you don’t tell them, that is NOT love, but being a coward.” (Fishon)
It is true we don’t see eye to eye on this issue – but I am not a coward for making my stand on this issue based on the best evidence I have.
Your stand is a dangerous one whether you will agree or not – it’s not squashing the idea altogether that gay bashers use to justify their actions – you kind of play lightly with the idea. It’s comparable to the idea many Muslims still want to keep the term ‘jihad’ even though by doing so they know they are not undermining the terrorists justification 100%.
However if I say the command is to love gay people and that’s that – and someone comes to me and says ‘isn’t it a sin’ – I cannot say it is a ‘sin’ – some gay people might get hurt because I got lenient on the idea. I cannot willfully give people some justification for an idea when it may cause harm for no reason whatsoever.
Again the sins you mention – I agree are sins and people will seek justice for them. Adultery can destroy the family and ruins a husband and wife’s relationship – sometimes there is a settlement. Murder takes someone’s life – someone needs to pay the price for that. Gossip is a sin – because it has the potential to turn into lies and cause serious problems from pretty much nothing (actually gossip is not in the Jewish law as a crime). But homosexuality – how does this deserve punishment – namely death? What does someone. merely by being gay, actually hurt you so that they can be brought before a court of law?
Even if I am loving gay people to hell – so be it – God can take that up with me and convict (which is also a law term – which requires proof) me when it is wrong. As of now I am going by the evidence on the subject and the actions I see as a result of believing one way or believing another – and it does not make sense to condemn gays for being gay – not one iota. I am open to being proven wrong on this – but someone show me a reason to convict someone for simply being gay to some action of the law?
I think I’m exhausted with this subject, and don’t have enough time today to get into it again, sorry… I do believe that a lot of angst and debate would be put to rest if we all have the highest possible view of God and His Word…..God is God and we are not.
Blessing to you all…..
Titfortat, then please help my healing process since I don’t think seeing homosexuality as a disability rather than a sin is twisted and perverted. I am open to the idea that I am stilll growing and developing in my thought processes. Maybe it isn’t such a good thing to have made the comparison between homosexuality (in my my mind a disability) with leprosy (a sickness). I would love to learn from your thoughts and experiences.
Gabriel
First ask yourself, would you use the same comparison when talking about someone who gossips? Next I would ask you have you researched all the scripture that supposedly talks about “Homosexuality”? And like I mentioned to fishon, does all your supposed info on what God says only come from an English Bible? My view when talking with most so called “christians” is the fact that they are so terribly ill informed when it comes to their Holy text. I am by far no expert but even with my limited knowledge it is easy to see its not as clear cut as most make out.
TitforTat,
Some folks look at a blueprint of a 747 and say, “I am by far no expert but even with my limited knowledge it is easy to see its not as clear cut as most make out.” Others say, “Oh yea, that is not so hard, see, this works with this and this works because of this.”
Just because you have trouble with the blueprint does NOT mean that everyone does.
Just because you can not understand the blueprint does NOT mean others can’t.
Just because you can not figure out the blueprint does NOT mean the 747 can’t fly.
It is the height of arrogance to tell others, “Because I can’t understand it, you can’t, either.”
I will go by the blueprint—-you go ahead and question the blueprint. I don’t need to question it–it works–just because you can NOT make it fly, well, maybe you need to study the blueprint a little closer.
fishon
fishon
Thats the thing, I have, and it seems you are either unwilling or unable to do it yourself. Because if you can say with 100% certainty what scripture says about Homosexuality, then you are at best delusional and at worst a Liar. That much I am certain of. But of course you will Love them right into Hell.
Well, TforT,
There is one fact you can not dispute–ah, you may try—-you go your way, I go mine, and one day we will see who understands correctly.
Nice try at the “…delusional and at worst a Liar.” That is what many say who can’t understand the blueprint. Yep, “I can’t [you] understand it, so you can’t either.”
Bash away, bash away, bash away on. I can handle it.
fishon
fishon
Its not your faith in Jesus as Saviour that troubles me, its your certainty of what you think your scriptures are saying. Im not saying I know for sure, all Im saying is there is enough ambiguity to make me question how anyone can think they know for certain. Also if you were a little more concerned with questioning whether you have the blueprint right side up, you wouldnt feel like Im bashing you. But hey, maybe your both a sadist(Burn baby burn) and a Masochist(Whip me Im a sinner). Excuse the comparison to your sex life
TitforTat,
Enough!
Go your way.
fishon
A very powerful cartoon.
I see it more of a thing about Christians realizing the real Jesus is coming out into the open [finally, they have figured out what He really is teaching] and He is giving them warning. (fishon)
Then what of the right-hand side of the cartoon, where everyone outside have their weapons — guns, cannon, missiles — pointed at the door?
* * * * *
My take on the cited verses…
Romans 1:26-32 ~ IMO, the entire second half of the first chapter has nothing to do with homosexuality, really. To me, Paul is using metaphor to describe to the ecclesia in ancient Rome what happens to people when they turn their backs to God, using cultural references they would understand (the sexual practices described were commonplace there in those days). And in the second chapter, the first words out of Paul’s mouth are, essentially, “Who are you to judge people like that, because, really, you’re no better than they are!”
Jude 1:7 ~ Then what of Ezekiel 16:49-50? In that passage, it is revealed that Sodom’s great sin was that they had great wealth but didn’t share it with the poor (gluttony and greed — two of the seven deadly sins). Sexual sin wasn’t even mentioned in Ezekiel.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (a great hope at the end
) ~ A great hope at the end, to be sure. 
That said, neither of the Greek terms found in that verse that (allegedly) translate to “homosexuals” — “arsenokoites” and “malakoi” — do. At least one translation uses the term “effeminate” for “malakoi”. (Via Strong’s Concordance, it means “soft”; “arsenokoites” is defined as “male beds”, which one translation describes as “those who abuse themselves with men”.)
Leviticus 18:22 ~ In verse 3, the Israelites are instructed that they are not to partake in the customs of the Egyptians, nor of the Canaanites (whose land they were about to take). The verses following explain those customs they’re not to have a part of. Clearly, men sleeping with men as if they would sleep with a woman — as I’m reading this chapter — is one of them; and I do think it’s more of a cultural thing and a control thing than anything else. Men were to be the dominant ones; women were considered less than equal. For a man to sleep with another man as he would with a woman, would mean that one of them would have to take on the submissive role, relinquishing their dominance to the other. As I read this passage, the relinquishing of a man’s control to another man is the abomination, because the submissive male would become a lesser figure. (I hope that explanation makes sense!)
(Other abominations listed in Mosaic law: handling unclean animals or people; eating any fish with scales; eating “winged insects that walk on all fours”; eating any animal that walks on its paws; coveting the silver and gold that decorate idols and taking it for yourself; sacrificing an ox or sheep that has a defect; people who practice cross-dressing; bringing the price of a harlot or do into the “House of Jehovah” for any vow; those who build graven images/idols in secret; a man taking back his first wife, after having divorced her once already, after she’s been divorced a second time; acting unjustly to others.)
1 Thessalonians 4:1-8 ~ This has nothing to do with homosexuality; in fact, it’s not even brought up! On the other hand, fornication is…which really has to do with sex with a prostitute (its Latin root word, “fornicati”, is a reference to the location where prostitutes plied their trade), not sex before or outside of marriage.
As Society pointed out, the term “homosexuality” did not exist in the English language until the late 1800s. Additionally, it didn’t show up in an English version of the Bible until the 1950s (the Amplified Version). I think the main reason it pops up in some of the modern English translations — NIV, NASB, New Living Translation, the aforementioned Amplified, to name but a few — is because of translator bias.
A little more food for thought…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSi066_02CM
shelly said, on November 13th, 2008 at 9:06 pm
A very powerful cartoon.
I see it more of a thing about Christians realizing the real Jesus is coming out into the open [finally, they have figured out what He really is teaching] and He is giving them warning. (fishon)
Then what of the right-hand side of the cartoon, where everyone outside have their weapons — guns, cannon, missiles — pointed at the door?
——————-They put him on a cross, Shelly, they put him on a cross.
fishon
i almost never explain my cartoons except when someone tries to derail it from it’s obvious meaning, especially when i’ve added a note which inspired it.
Tit for tat
If it means anything-I am sorry my point of view ofended you. For what it’s worth. I never tried to “heal” a person of homosexuality (altough theoretically I leave the posibility open that God can change sexual orientation) and definitely don’t think somebody that’s homosexual will go to hell. I have many happy homosexuals in my congregation. So maybe, altough our points of view differ we are not so much different in our day to day relations with gay people…because love is wiser than toughts when it comes to dealing with people.
Let’s make peace…
Gabriel
Unfortunately you didnt answer any of my questions, and by the way Im not at “war” with you so I dont see the need to make “peace”. I am just a little befuddled at what you actually base your ideas on if you havnt taken the time to inform yourself about what Biblical Scriptures actually say on the matter. By the way what makes you think God needs/wants to change anyones sexual orientation when it seems pretty clear that they were born that way. You might want to check out your idea about Hell too.
TitforTat
Glad to hear you’re not at war. Maybe I’m oversensitive but you came across that way to me. I’ll try and answer some of your questions. I wouldn’t use the same line of argumentation with gossip…because gossip is a behaviour that can change for the good of the person gossiping as well as those he gossips to and about. Homosexuality is part of the broken reality we live in and as far as my records show not changeable…it is however a broken reality that God can and will change someday…I hope.
I have studied the scriptures extensively on this subject. What bothers me is that there is so few scriptures that speak about the subject and when it is mentioned it is never the main subject of the passage. Therefore I don’t think it plausible to form an opinion on homosexuality (either for or against) based soley on what scriptures say. Maybe subjects like unconditional love ect. is what we should focus on more.
What do you think is my stance on hell? I am not sure yet (need to study more on the subject) but I don’t think of Hell as a physical place of flames and torment in wich people are dumped. I think Jesus used the term to describe the isolation and distress a life seperated from Him and your fellow human beings causes. Sorry I am late for a meeting so I only described my views briefly. I would also like to study your comments and blog to form a better idea of who you are and what you stand for. Thank you fro replying.
Therefore I don’t think it plausible to form an opinion on homosexuality (either for or against) based soley on what scriptures say(Gabriel)
“Homosexuality is part of the broken reality we live in and as far as my records show not changeable…it is however a broken reality that God can and will change someday…I hope.”(Gabriel)
Gabriel
Thanks for getting back. It seems from the latter statement that you have formed an opinion on Homosexuality. And from my perspective, its not a very loving one. You view them as broken because of their sexual orientation. Does that mean you are broken because you are Heterosexual? Im not sure what your stance on Hell is, but just the idea that a God could banish us for eternity is pretty repulsive. Tell me, wheres the forgiveness in that? Lets see, an infinite punishment for so called crimes in a finite world…..hmm… nows thats pretty fair. Not sure I would want to be around a God who has that as Justice.
“Practicing homosexuality is sin.
Practicing murder is a sin.
Practicing adultry is a sin.
Practicing gossip is a sin.
Etc.” -fishon
so is wearing mixed fibers and not leaving a corner of your field for gleening.. these are two sins that i’m guilty of as i type this under the Lev. Law. but i’ve come out of my closet about it… and thought… with our new understanding of textiles, maybe it’s not a sin. hmmm..
science and technology are game changers?
Tit for Tat,
To view people as broken is not unloving. I myself am a broken person in many ways. However, to view people only as broken would be a mistake. Because we are also redeemed. That knowledge enable us to confront our brokeness and either be healed or live with our brokeness in a meaningful way. I don’t see heterosexuality as brokeness altough I do acknowledge that sexuality in total got scrarred because of sin. In that sense neither hetero or homosexual’s sexuality (to different degrees) is what God intended it to be, but both will be one day… This hope keeps me going.