When you have innerant Popes there is no indepenedent thinking.
When you have ’specially annointed’ leaders there is no independent thinking.
When you have a paper Pope (the Bible) there is no independent thinking.
When you place emphasis on the Word (Jesus Himself) you can have independent thinking.
Steve,
Help me my friend.
Where can I go to find the “emphasis on the Word (Jesus Himself)?
I only think in a box. So with what you said, I can only think of 2 places to ‘place emphasis on the Word (Jesus Himself)’–The Bible or someone who has had special revelations from Jesus. So if it isn’t the Bible….
fishon
I was just talking to a friend yesterday about what I feel has become Protestant “Bible worship” taking hold of the Southern Baptist church. She has been raised that way and believes that “the Bible is THE way we know God.”
The only thing that came to mind to try to explain my perspective was to compare the Bible to a lovelettter.
When you receive a loveletter, you might have something to hold onto–something tangible for when you and your love are apart. Your significant other might reveal some things to you that you didn’t already know. He or she might make promises to you and reaffirm the love you share. It is a tangible expression of love and self,
BUT the loveletter ITSELF does not constitute the other person. To truly know the other person, you must spend quality time together, continue talking, engage in problem solving, and show affection. You can only know the other person through relationship.
To know God, go to God. Anything else is less than…
ttm – thanks for that, a really helpful response I think.
The phenomena of Bible worship is seen here in the UK too, through classes where people memorise and chant sections of scripture over and over. I find it really disturbing as it seems to focus very heavily on the Old Testament and interpretations of it, and goes hand in hand with an obsession with Israel and its place in end time events. This also produces an extreme legalism.
Anything that looks to somewhere other than Jesus – relationship with him now, and teaching of his through the new testament, seems not healthy to me.
ttm,
Where is and was your starting point with Jesus?
I am all for relationship with Jesus. I seek and strive to have that relationship you point out we need with Him.
However, there is an inherent danger if the relationship with Jesus is based, as many evolve to, on only relationship and not the Word [Bible]. We move into the realm of the pastor/leader/church that you lament [right so] about that our abusive. We move into the realm of people developing a “Lego” god; one based on the preceived relationship and no attention paid to the ‘loveletter.’
One of the reasons that abuse happens to Christians is, the abuser thinks himself/herself as having a SPECIAL relationship with God–the loveletter is secondary and hence, “Follow me–do as I say, because I have a SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP with God.”
You won’t like this example but I will use it as it is fitting.
God’s loveletter makes it very clear–sexual imorality is a sin.
Yet, how many times do we read of a Christian who comes out as a practicing homosexual, only to justify themselves by saying they have heard from God and it is not sin or declare that the loveletter is archaic?
Ray Boltz in justifying his practicing homosexuality says:: “If this is the way God made me, then this is the way I’m going to live. It’s not like God made me this way and he’ll send me to hell if I am who he created me to be … I really feel closer to God because I no longer hate myself.â€
Did you get that last line? He is speaking of relationship to God/Jesus. “Feel” is the operative word here. His feeling, relationship is contrary to the loveletter.
You may not, but many Christians embrace ‘feeling/relationship over the loveletter and there is the huge problem as I see it.
fishon
You persist in dragging pastor/leader/church into the relationship between me and God. Why? I don’t need a go-between to correctly interpret what God’s spirit breathes into my heart. In my opinion, it is NOT the “special [personal] relationship with God” that creates situations of spiritual abuse. The unique relationship each of us has with God deserves to be valued. It’s the “special ['what I hear from God must be imposed on everyone' way of seeing] relationship with God” that creates abuses.
Without getting into the issue of homosexuality, I understand what you are saying about Christians who “use” God’s love as a license to live however they want to live regardless of what God may be speaking into their hearts directly or indirectly. But many Christians also “use” the threat of God’s judgment and their own interpretation of Scripture (which they equate with God) as a way of feeling superior to others and getting brownie points in the Kingdom.
While the Bible may very well be without error, man’s interpretation/sermons/opinions aren’t. While the Bible may very well be authoritative, it is not formulaic. While the Bible may very well be helpful, it is the Spirit (not the written word itself) which makes it so…in my opinion (which may very well be wrong.)
Keep in mind that those within the church around the world who have differing opinions and lifestyles than ours do not necessarily claim to be differing with scripture.
Good reminder, David. Those within the church seem usually to claim to be in line with Scripture–yet there are many differing opinions. Which means either Scripture is intended to be broadly applied or human beings are really skilled at manipulating all behavior into the “acceptable/God-approved” box. What do you think?
The scripture itself says that every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD ponders the hearts. So, being good Christians, we justify, explain and endorse our behavior with scripture to keep our consciences clear. So, Boltz might be using scripture to justify himself, just like we might be using scripture to condemn him. We’re all in the pot!
When you have innerant Popes there is no indepenedent thinking.
Dude, I don’t know whether this is a tongue-in-cheek thingy, but there’s no such thing as an inerrant Pope, only infallible. Both are very different. VERY!
I don’t need a go-between to correctly interpret what God’s spirit breathes into my heart.
You’re the second person this week that I know who has such close contact with God. You must have very little problem in life, knowing where to turn at every junction, knowing which road to be on, just like Jesus!
Maybe a loveletter is not the best metaphor to use for the bible because my (and others) connotation with a loveletter is something soppy, sentimental and not very honest. Something you can leave in a drawer collecting dust. I suggest the metaphor of a journal inscription, a very personal truth we are priveledged enough to look at and a highly credible way to no God’s heart better. We should keep in mind however that it is no owners manual that enables us to manipulate God.
David Hayward is a pastor artistically stripping to the essential.
Oh yea, that is why there are so many church-SPLITS, cause no one thinks indendently. NOT!
fishon
Oh fishon,
Deutchland Uber Alles
When you have innerant Popes there is no indepenedent thinking.
When you have ’specially annointed’ leaders there is no independent thinking.
When you have a paper Pope (the Bible) there is no independent thinking.
When you place emphasis on the Word (Jesus Himself) you can have independent thinking.
Almost send this one to a Pastor friend of ours, just couldnt do it to him lol.
Steve,
Help me my friend.
Where can I go to find the “emphasis on the Word (Jesus Himself)?
I only think in a box. So with what you said, I can only think of 2 places to ‘place emphasis on the Word (Jesus Himself)’–The Bible or someone who has had special revelations from Jesus. So if it isn’t the Bible….
fishon
Greg,
I don’t speak in tongues–so can you interpret for me?
fishon
Come on, fishon,
“Where can I go to find…Jesus Himself?”
Hmmmm…maybe to Jesus Himself?
I was just talking to a friend yesterday about what I feel has become Protestant “Bible worship” taking hold of the Southern Baptist church. She has been raised that way and believes that “the Bible is THE way we know God.”
The only thing that came to mind to try to explain my perspective was to compare the Bible to a lovelettter.
When you receive a loveletter, you might have something to hold onto–something tangible for when you and your love are apart. Your significant other might reveal some things to you that you didn’t already know. He or she might make promises to you and reaffirm the love you share. It is a tangible expression of love and self,
BUT the loveletter ITSELF does not constitute the other person. To truly know the other person, you must spend quality time together, continue talking, engage in problem solving, and show affection. You can only know the other person through relationship.
To know God, go to God. Anything else is less than…
ttm – thanks for that, a really helpful response I think.
The phenomena of Bible worship is seen here in the UK too, through classes where people memorise and chant sections of scripture over and over. I find it really disturbing as it seems to focus very heavily on the Old Testament and interpretations of it, and goes hand in hand with an obsession with Israel and its place in end time events. This also produces an extreme legalism.
Anything that looks to somewhere other than Jesus – relationship with him now, and teaching of his through the new testament, seems not healthy to me.
ttm,
Where is and was your starting point with Jesus?
I am all for relationship with Jesus. I seek and strive to have that relationship you point out we need with Him.
However, there is an inherent danger if the relationship with Jesus is based, as many evolve to, on only relationship and not the Word [Bible]. We move into the realm of the pastor/leader/church that you lament [right so] about that our abusive. We move into the realm of people developing a “Lego” god; one based on the preceived relationship and no attention paid to the ‘loveletter.’
One of the reasons that abuse happens to Christians is, the abuser thinks himself/herself as having a SPECIAL relationship with God–the loveletter is secondary and hence, “Follow me–do as I say, because I have a SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP with God.”
You won’t like this example but I will use it as it is fitting.
God’s loveletter makes it very clear–sexual imorality is a sin.
Yet, how many times do we read of a Christian who comes out as a practicing homosexual, only to justify themselves by saying they have heard from God and it is not sin or declare that the loveletter is archaic?
Ray Boltz in justifying his practicing homosexuality says:: “If this is the way God made me, then this is the way I’m going to live. It’s not like God made me this way and he’ll send me to hell if I am who he created me to be … I really feel closer to God because I no longer hate myself.â€
Did you get that last line? He is speaking of relationship to God/Jesus. “Feel” is the operative word here. His feeling, relationship is contrary to the loveletter.
You may not, but many Christians embrace ‘feeling/relationship over the loveletter and there is the huge problem as I see it.
fishon
fishon,
You persist in dragging pastor/leader/church into the relationship between me and God. Why? I don’t need a go-between to correctly interpret what God’s spirit breathes into my heart. In my opinion, it is NOT the “special [personal] relationship with God” that creates situations of spiritual abuse. The unique relationship each of us has with God deserves to be valued. It’s the “special ['what I hear from God must be imposed on everyone' way of seeing] relationship with God” that creates abuses.
Without getting into the issue of homosexuality, I understand what you are saying about Christians who “use” God’s love as a license to live however they want to live regardless of what God may be speaking into their hearts directly or indirectly. But many Christians also “use” the threat of God’s judgment and their own interpretation of Scripture (which they equate with God) as a way of feeling superior to others and getting brownie points in the Kingdom.
While the Bible may very well be without error, man’s interpretation/sermons/opinions aren’t. While the Bible may very well be authoritative, it is not formulaic. While the Bible may very well be helpful, it is the Spirit (not the written word itself) which makes it so…in my opinion (which may very well be wrong.)
Keep in mind that those within the church around the world who have differing opinions and lifestyles than ours do not necessarily claim to be differing with scripture.
Good reminder, David. Those within the church seem usually to claim to be in line with Scripture–yet there are many differing opinions. Which means either Scripture is intended to be broadly applied or human beings are really skilled at manipulating all behavior into the “acceptable/God-approved” box. What do you think?
The scripture itself says that every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD ponders the hearts. So, being good Christians, we justify, explain and endorse our behavior with scripture to keep our consciences clear. So, Boltz might be using scripture to justify himself, just like we might be using scripture to condemn him. We’re all in the pot!
When you place emphasis on the Word (Jesus Himself) you can have independent thinking. (steve, emphasis mine)
I don’t need a go-between to correctly interpret what God’s spirit breathes into my heart. (ttm)
Exactly.
David
1 Thessalonians 5:21 (King James Version)
” Prove all things; hold fast that which is good”
One of the few times I actually like quoting the KJV………..
John t.
Think independently. PLEASE!!! I don’t want to be anyone’s Messiah.
When you have innerant Popes there is no indepenedent thinking.
Dude, I don’t know whether this is a tongue-in-cheek thingy, but there’s no such thing as an inerrant Pope, only infallible. Both are very different. VERY!
I don’t need a go-between to correctly interpret what God’s spirit breathes into my heart.
You’re the second person this week that I know who has such close contact with God. You must have very little problem in life, knowing where to turn at every junction, knowing which road to be on, just like Jesus!
Maybe a loveletter is not the best metaphor to use for the bible because my (and others) connotation with a loveletter is something soppy, sentimental and not very honest. Something you can leave in a drawer collecting dust. I suggest the metaphor of a journal inscription, a very personal truth we are priveledged enough to look at and a highly credible way to no God’s heart better. We should keep in mind however that it is no owners manual that enables us to manipulate God.
oh gabriel, you’ve yet to receive a really good love letter!
I agree. My Wife isn’t much of a romantic like me! lol
Oh yea, that is why there are so many church-SPLITS, cause no one thinks independently. NOT!
I thought church splits because people cannot take people who think independently?
Uh, yea, there’s also people who cannot take people who don’t/cannot think independently.
Am I missing the point, no?