cartoon: divine exceptions
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David,
Ah heck, let’s just change the wording a little, just for controversies sake.
(except for pedophilies and people like that).
I see two ways in which I can understand your statement. Knowing how you like to be provocative, I choose the one that I believe your point is addressing.
And by chance I have misinterpreted your meaning, can you name me ONE person that I may recognize that says “except for gays and people like that?” As far as I know, not even that awful man, Fred Phelps says that. Prove me wrong.
fishon
“As far as I know, not even that awful man, Fred Phelps says that” (Fishon)
No, he just pickets their funerals – are far worse action than saying some gay bashing wording.
We are all “people like that”, aren’t we?
If you read Romans 1:18-32 you discover how bad “THEY” really are. And then, when you read Romans 2 and 3, you discover that “WE” are not much different than “THEY.”
Hopefully, that insight makes us think twice about pulling out the ten-foot finger and scolding “THEM” for their sin. We do like our ten-foot fingers, though. Until we experience God’s loving searchlight exposing our own “secrets”, we are not likely to stop judging.
And even when we do experience God’s revealing/restoring nature in relation to our own sins, we so easily forget. Which is why we need to keep praying the prayer, “Search me, O God, and see if there is any wicked way in me” and why we need to put away our tracking devices and let God be the private investigator.
Thanks for the reminder, David.
says or thinks? difference?
SocietyVs,
No doubt.
fishon
“except for Fred Phelps and people like that.”
Hum, I wonder how many on the other side of the fence “say or thinks” that?
fishon
Fishon….”As far as I know, not even that awful man, Fred Phelps says that”
How bad can he be, afterall hes Christian isnt he?
john t said: How bad can he be, afterall hes Christian isnt he?
——-You think????
fishon
hmm. I agree, sort of.
yes God, in Christ, is reconciling the world. But we’re still called to repent. We’re not supposed to be proud of our sins or encourage them. People who sin homosexually are no worse than people who lie. But if we see a sin in ourself, we are supposed to turn away from it. And if our brother/sister were to commit any other sexual sin (adultery, fornication, etc.) we should lovingly confront them. I think it’s corinthians that goes through that procedure. This does not mean picketing their funerals.
Of course if they’re not even Christian, we have to leave it up to God, and maybe witness to them if possible.
It’s sad that so many people have picked up on this one sin. The intolerance does no one any good.
fishon
——-You think????
Of course………he says it himself…….and Christians dont lie.
john t.,
Apparently I need to re-phrase——-So you think him a Christian?????
fishon
It really makes me angry when people compare homosexuality to “other” sins. (Paedolphelia, adultery & fornication?)
For a start I do not think that it IS a sin. I could launch into the spiel about the reasons why but I’m sure most people have heard it all before.
I find it really unfortunate that so many Christians are so closed minded about the issue.
It shouldn’t even be an issue!
So many people in the gay community are totally put off Christianity because they believe they are not welcome in church. It really makes me sad that for the most part, they are right.
hahahahahahahaha! nice one np!
caroline… couldn’t agree more!
Fishon
I see him as much of a Christian as I see you. Your just a little quieter/subtle when it comes to expressing your hate.
Well it *was* the gays that Jesus drove out of the temple, as they offended him so deeply. Oh wait, he never mentioned them at all… it was the people selling money, religion and salvation for cash. Makes one wonder why of all the things Jesus talked about being good or bad he never mentioned that… maybe there were no gays back then? Maybe he had other things to concern himself with?
Interesting that we get caught up in certain things but don’t share his zest for removing corruption from the Church.
But this has moved somewhat away from David’s message in the cartoon, which I think is more of a ‘glass houses’ thing.
john t,
Ah, the old “hate” line.
I CHALLENGE you, john, to come up with a line in which I spew hate. But, alas, I don’t believe you recognize hate–oops, wait a minute, fishon, maybe old john just might ‘hate’ you. Yep, anyone who would declare someone a hater is sure a hateful fellow. Yep, john, welcome to the hate club.
fishon
i fail to see how pointing out hatred in someone makes the observer a hater.
PK wrote: Well it *was* the gays that Jesus drove out of the temple, as they offended him so deeply. Oh wait, he never mentioned them at all…
——PK, you are right on. He did not drive out the rapist–drunkard–murderer–idolator.
PK: Maybe he had other things to concern himself with?
——Patch the holes in your bucket, PK. Dealing with one issue at a time doesn’t not make other issues no more important. Kind of like, at this very moment this issue on the floor of the Congress is about whether to pass the Senate’s version of the ‘Bailout’ bill. When Congress comes back from recess, it will be something else.
And PK, when Jesus dealt with the lady caught in adultry, he did NOT mention the “people selling money, religion and salvation for cash,” so based on your thinking, am I to assume it didn’t matter to him? No, you know that is not so.
PK: Interesting that we get caught up in certain things but don’t share his zest for removing corruption from the Church.
——I guess when you us the “we” word, you mean you. Man, if I went off on that, and pointed out people {Christians} who are trying to fight the corruption in the church I’d be writing all day.
I dare say that our esteemed Nakedpastor is trying to fight corruption in the church. By the way, PK, there is a famous word used on people who are trying to fight the corruption within the church: “Heritic hunters.” The corrupt use that word as a disparaging term.
Oh, PK, there were gays ‘back then.’ But you knew that.
fishon
Daivd,
Might you say, I fail to see how a person pointing out sin makes one a hater?
Gee, I think you missed my point–but then maybe I wasn’t clear enough.
Of course pointing out hate no more makes that person a hater than a Christian pointing out sin make him/her a hater.
Interesting how you come to the defense of old john t, but when john t writes: “Your {fishon} just a little quieter/subtle when it comes to expressing your hate.
Did you get that David, “…expressing your hate.”
Now, David, you know me well enough that I don’t need defending, but your choice of moving in for john t is intriguing.
fishon
fishon, if I had a bucket I’d stick in on your head. I think you’d have a much better view of me then.
I haven’t been here very long but I do have to wonder at the possible link between your name and trolling…
Hate is insidious. It doesn’t always announce its presence with a declaration or even with horrifying symptoms. Sometimes it just wraps itself around words and expressions subtly…virally…and kills invisibly.
Does identifying an act of hate make one a hater?
Does identifying an act of sin make one a sinner?
Does identifying the corruption of the church make one a corrupter?
Does identifying an act of redemption make one a redeemer?
Does identifying an act of salvation make one a saver?
These are powerful and intriguing questions…
i wasn’t defending jon. i was questioning your reasoning.
PK,
I am a bank fisherman. Can’t troll from the bank. In fact, I am going out and try and catch a Steelhead. There were fish to the right of me and fish to the left of me, yesterday, but none on the bank for me.
As far as putting the bucket on my head, be gentle about it, please.
fishon
ttm asked:
Does identifying an act of hate make one a hater?
—–It can if the one doing the identifying hates the one he/she is idendifying.
Does identifying an act of sin make one a sinner?
—–Yep. “All have sinned and fallen….”
Does identifying the corruption of the church make one a corrupter?
—–Not necessarily.
Does identifying an act of redemption make one a redeemer?
—–Depends on how you mean that.
Does identifying an act of salvation make one a saver?
—–Not in the sense that Jesus saves, However, he uses Christians as His emissaries for
salvation.
These are powerful and intriguing questions…
—–Oh yes, with many possible twists and turns.
And yes, ttm, hate is insidious. And what appears to be hate in some peoples eyes can, at the end of the matter, really be genuine love. EXAMPLE: “…hand this man over to Satan….”
fishon
David,
Sorry you missed the subtley of my point.
Point being–john t calling me a hater based on … is as ridiculous as me calling him a hater for calling me a hater–without any based in fact.
I still away his reply to my request of a statement of hate from me.
fishon
fishon
Dont worry about what you call me. I own them all. Thats why its easy to see it in you too. I wonder if you are man enough to own your shit too.
john t,
Absolutely.
fishon
come on gents, there should be less of the H word and more of the L word, from us all towards the other. God loves all people. He dislikes all of our sin. Lets have some of the fruits of the spirit for one another – please? its an issue that of course is up for debate like any other, but for some reason it has more emotive power than most others too – why is that? none of us can claim to fully own God’s thinking on it, and each have a plank the size of a sawmill to get out of our eye before we can look at the sin of others and condemn it.
fishon
Correct me if Im wrong, but I think you have stated that the bible is the word of God and should be trusted? If so then here are your references to hatred……
You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20
Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10
Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7
Now if youd like, I could show some more of your Loving Beliefs?
john t,
So might you be saying in affect, that all people who “state that the bible is the word of God and should be trusted,” hate?
Since you alude to those scriptures you sited as “references to hatred” then is it correct for me to assume you do not subscribe to the Bible as God’s Holy Word?
And since the scriptures you sited are as claimed by the Bible as God’s Words, then you see the God of the Bible as a hateful God; might that assumption also be true?
I really look forward to reading your answers.
Dang, lots of fish rolling, but none biting this evening.
fishon
Question #1. If they believe it to be absolutely right………then my answer is yes
2. Yes
3. Yes
john t,
Thank you for answering so quickly.
Since I believe the Bible is “absolutely right,” and in your eyes that makes me a hater, then I guess the conversation is over. No use you having to put up with a hater.
And since you see the God of the Bible as a hateful God, we have no place of reference to discuss anything.
So Nakedpastor, you can deal with john t, whom I assume considers you a hater and your God a “hateful” God.
And for you all who frequent the NP blog, some of you will fall under the “hater” catagory in john t’s eyes—-some of you will be seen as…wow, I don’t know what john t will see you as if you believe part of the Bible, but not other parts. I guess it would depend on what part you believed. It will be interesting to watch future dialogues to see which of you are of the chosen hate group and who john t might declare a lover.
At least john t lays it on the line—way to many fence sitter who call them selves Christian should have his guts.
fishon
I am really saddened by this. Heartbroken in fact. Amazing how quickly something can escalate into hatred and separation. Jesus is further scarred and wounded by this and so is the church.
Please don’t be watching peoples comments on this site so you can categorise and pigeon-hole us into your groups, that will lead to the cessation of free speech here – not all of us know everything, we are often learning by the process of conversation and don’t have lots of black and white answers figured out.
fishon
Let me ask you this one question before you go. What is the difference if I call you a Hater or just a down right nasty “Sinner”. Is there really a difference? By the way, many of the bloggers here dont consider the Bible to be the absolute word of God. They actually see where the “Hand of Man” has put his mark, hence the Hate in it. As for how people choose to view me, I will leave that up to them.
well, my take on this whole discussion is that this cartoon was meant to expose the distance between what an scripture says (the whole world being reconciled) and what we actually think (but obviously not those who’s lifestyle we disagree with). it was meant to show how mean we are. and basically the comments only prove this point further. doesn’t it? i hate division, and the fundamentalist mindset causes it almost always.
Why are we in this hand cart… and where are we going?
David
The question that should maybe be asked is. If there is a God, and if that God loves us, are we not already reconciled? The fact of the matter is, the problem is when individuals decide they have the recipe for all. The believers of Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity who are of the belief that they have the “right” belief are the ones who seem to create division. If people could say “you know what, Im not sure whats going on, but I do have some stuff here that may lead to a better and more Loving community.” Unfortunately though, if your Faith leads to you having the truth and someone else not having it, then how in Gods name can we expect any type of unity. Isnt just the act of calling yourself something other than “fellow human” a divisive thing?
The point of the cartoon, which tried to highlight the point of the verse, is that God WAS in Christ reconciling the world…. i.e., that it was accomplished. so I agree that we are reconciled. But as Paul says, we should become what we are. We are reconciled. Be reconciled therefore. And I don’t believe that unity is based on agreement. It cannot. It is based on love, which covers a multitude of sins and opinions and denominations and religions.
Kim,
I don’t know where you come from on the Bible and it being the inerrant Word of God, but to respond to your saddness, it really does not matter.
I am sorry that you are heartbroken, I real am. And one of the reasons is, I think [just opinion] that you misinterprete disagreement and debate as a sign of hatred.
john t. and I have a totally different view of the Bible and surely a different world view, and we have bantered back and forth about it. As far as I am concerned, john t. has NOT been hateful to me. And I can not speak for john t., but I would hope that he does not think me as being hateful in our dialogue. Yes, it is true, he thinks I am a hater. However, the accusation does not stem from are dialogue, but from how I see scripture as the inerrant Word of God. The bottom line is, I do NOT hate john t. And I do not believe john t. hates me. He hates what I believe, but that is not the same as hating me. It is like this. I HATE what the Wall Street crooks [not all are crooks] have done to our economy–but I do not have a personal hatred for any of the crooked one. I don’t even know one of their names.
On the ‘separation.’ Yes, there is seperation between john t. and myself. But that is not based on any debates between us. It is based on us seeing scripture from COMPLETELY different points of view. We did not creature seperation over time–but was there from the beginning. We just came to understand it after dialogue.
Ok, john t. pigeon-holed me as a hater. But I fail to understand how that will lead to the cessation of free speech “here.”
Again, I am sorry you are saddened. But you do understand, don’t you, that David puts up his thoughts, opinions, and cartoons to bring on discussions know full well that they will invoke passion and a passionate discussion. As an artist, he understands that, especially his art, will envoke different interpretations. It has many times in the past, and will in the future.
In Christ,
fishon
Fishon
A man after my own heart…. For me Hate is a pretty strong emotion. I usually save it for people who really deserve it(like my ex)
I agree with you, I dont hate you at all. I totally disagree with your viewpoint on life, but hey thats what makes life interesting, our differences. Hope your fishing nets you something.
john t,
Thanks for the hope on fishing. I am going out again for a few hours. Ah, the life of a rural pastor.
Last evening I had a great time on the river. No fish for me, but the river is full of Steehead and Salmon. I was walking up a trail to a favorite hole when a young man stopped me and asked me if I would help him set up a side-planner. Of course I did. He asked me what I did, and I told him. He said, “Wow, you are an answer to my prayers for today.” Well, he fished, I sat and drank coffee, and we had quite a conversation about God, the Bible and our beliefs. He is very close to a universalist, but wayyyyyy smart. Two strangers on the bank of a river, in disagreement at that, but we will fish together today. And no doubt, discuss our differences. And I am sure neither of us will throw each other into the river. We felt each other out as to our disposition before we talked.
I hope Kim can understand that adament disagreement does not mean hatred. Hopeful she can see how you and I can be so far apart, and yet that does NOT mean hate.
fishon
fishon
What state/location are you in?
john,
I live in Oregon. I fish the Deschutes River in Central Oregon.
I stopped at that young man’s camp and he went up river with me. I took him to my favorite spot. Put him in my can’t miss hole, and he caught a 6# and 15# Steelhead. He was beside himself. Hehehe, me, not even a bite. But I am glad he caught the fish instead of me. I can go anytime; he and his family were on vacation. I’m heading out tomorrow after church to go fishing with my best friend on the Umpqua River, fishing for Silvers. It is about a 5 hour trip, but it will be fun.
Sounds like I fish alot. Just in Sept., Oct, and part of Nov. The congregation encourages me to go. It is almost part of my job description.
When I get back, if I see you in a post, I will give you a howdy.
fishon [jerry]
Fishon – nice of you to respond to me, thanks. It was this line that bothered me:
“It will be interesting to watch future dialogues to see which of you are of the chosen hate group and who john t might declare a lover.”
I agree that free speech is a good thing, and impassioned debate also. However I would be very wary of entering a debate wih you as I don’t like the way in which it took place or the language it used. I would feel thoroughly shouted at!
Its much easier when its folk who know each other face to face – they can guage the body language and views of the other more easily. When its over a blog and a long distance, thats hard to do. Within the church we are meant to bear with one another, and love one another like family.
Maybe this is how guys disagree! I would be pleased to think you two might go fishing together one day, peaceably.
Best wishes to you and John.
Kim
Kim,
I am off to preach then fishing, but I wanted to respond to you.
I am sorry that I sound like I am shouting. I would say, as you have pointed out, it is harder to communicate by writing in a blog. If we could do it well, we would probably be an Author, writing best sellers.
In a face to face debate, I have learned not to shout–for the most part. And I don’t get upset ie someone shouts at me, in their frustration or passion. But it has taken time to learn both.
I agree: “Within the church we are meant to bear with one another, and love one another like family.”————–I believe that many people misunderstand that to debate, argue, and even be passionate about it, and sometimes sound harsh is not loving. I have more thoughts on the subject, but off I go.
YOU MAKE IT A GREAT DAY.
fishon———-Oh, john and I could fish together and get along quite well, of that I am sure. But if we got to talking scripture it might cause the fish to stop dead in the water and listen to the “great debate.
fishon – DON’T TELL ME WHAT SORT OF A DAY TO MAKE. See what I mean!? (AM only joking, obviously!) Have good fishin.
I think you have to be careful with your “the Bible as the inerrant word of God” as a way of defining people, because even if we all sign up to that statement, we still bring our history, background, subjectivity, personal sin etc to bear on our view of the Bible. Some observe every letter and old covenant law, others less so, but that doesn’t make us wrong, non believers, whatever.
It just recognises that each person has their own baggage attached even to “absolute truth.” We are all mostly doing the best we can to live this life that Jesus has called us to, and our understanding of it grows and changes as we live it and encounter God renewing and transforming our minds by the power of the holy spirit. So, I would be perhaps a person who saw more grey areas than you. But thats ok! God still has room for both of us.
I find Romans 14:22 helpful in that it says we should keep these differences between ourselves and God – the people we disagree with don’t necessarily need to be told about it!!
Cheers, Kim
Kim
Maybe this is how guys disagree! I would be pleased to think you two might go fishing together one day, peaceably(kim)
Ah testosterone and boys will be boys. Though its not the same with all of us, most of us do interact this way. Just look at us play in sports and such, very different than our female counterparts. The thing is we all have a hater and lover in us, such is the world of Duality. Though fishon may declare to be a follower of Jesus, what does that actually mean? We see the same sense of Duality in the words of jesus. Though most are loving there are still some that if viewed literally are down right nasty. So with this said, this is where I part ways with fishon. I do not view the bible as literal though there are some pretty obvious truths in it. I just think its a slippery slope when you think you know the mind of God when its nice, but are not allowed to know his mind when its nasty. Thats why in “my” mind its pretty obvious that it was Humans who wrote it, and though some may have been divinely inspired, there are many who werent.
John
John t,
Hi. good to talk to you. I agree we all have the potential to be a lover and a hater in us – or maybe as david says on his t-shirt, a saint and a sinner.
I view the Bible as a book of information and instruction from God, that helps me to understand something of him, his character and purposes. Particularly in the new testament where the life that Jesus lived teaches me how to live, what things he thought were important, and the ways in which God interracts with us as humans. There are parts of it I don’t understand at all, but the main message is pretty clear. He loves us, wants us to love him, and each other.
The business of being a follower of Jesus is complicated and we are all at different stages in that journey. The Bible helps me with that, but what helps more is having a real, day-to-day relationship with Jesus, chatting to him and hearing from him. And opening myself up to the Holy Spirit, which I believe is the means of change and transformation in me.
I know I am a mess, and I get it wrong such a lot of the time. But he never loves me any less, turns his back on me, or abandons me. Will I ever fully know the mind of God in this life, on matters of nice or nasty? No, of course not. I want to know and understand as much as I can while I’m here, but I would never claim to be the owner or arbiter of absolute truth.