The most radical kind of grace is the kind that has no expectations on the recipient. It loves and forgives before there is even a hint of worthiness or repentance. God doesn’t love what I’m to become. He doesn’t love the perfect idea or realization of David Hayward. He loves me as I am now. In fact, God loved me when I was dead, with nothing to offer and no hopes of offering anything back. This kind of radical grace, or love, is what the scriptures talk about.
Which is why it is just as important for me to love others in this way. It is completely expected for us to love those who show promise or from whom we can expect something back… even gratitude. But it is a radical kind of grace or love that loves and forgives without any hope of return. I reject the idea of loving someone because of their potential, or loving, forgiving or investing in the perfect idea of someone, my best idea of them. It is not remarkable to love someone because of what I hope they may become.
The same goes for the church. I refuse to love this community because of the potential it may have. It’s not helpful to love them because I believe they are going to be great. I am to love them now. Like the father loved the prodigal son even before he had a chance to open his mouth and repent, I am to love my community as they are… while they are on the road without any hopes of reaching the destination. I am to love them now, as they actually are, with no hope of change or response. I am to love them without an eye on my hopes, dreams, visions or expectations of them. I don’t love Rothesay Vineyard as an idea, but as they presently are.
Contributions to nakedpastor are greatly appreciated.
David Hayward is an artist trapped in a pastor's body, stripping to the essential.
sorry john t., I’ve been out on appointments for a few hours and visiting my son at his work…just checking in here to see that for some reason maybe you feel I was dodging or afraid of your question. I have two answers to this…
1) I am honestly not certain about the passage. I do not have an answer for you. I am not afraid to tell you that. I don’t pretend to know everything about the Bible. However it does seem like Fishon is doing a good job talking about it with you.
2) I feel you have pulled out a minor obscure verse that has deviated from the main track we were discussing which was the love of God, and the issues of salvation/eternall life/heaven/hell. From my vantage point these are MAJOR issues that are spoken of all throughout scripture and are included in, but not limited to, the core doctrines of what most evangelicals believe.
You asked me to share with you what I have discovered about God for myself, on this topic. I told you and was also careful to tell you this is my experience and not a theological dissertation. Now in response to that, you tell me that’s nice for me, but it doesn’t work for you. Okay, I accept that…we are different, and you have not had the same experience. But then you go on to change the topic and pull out an obscure verse that would not be so unlike us discussing the love and grace of God and all of a sudden you asking me, “by the way, who was Cain’s wife?” or “How many angels can fit on the head of a pin?” and “Can God make a rock so big that even He couldn’t pick it up?” To be honest with you, I do not know the answers to any of those questions, however I do know what Jesus has done for me. I don’t have to know all the answers, but I feel that I know the most essential thing for me at least, and that’s that He saves, and His grace and love are enough for me — and for anyone if they will just call on Him. I choose to keep the main thing the main thing and not major in the minors.
And that, my friend are the reasons I did not answer you concerning Numbers but I’m sure there are probably a some people within this comment threat who might have an answer on that for you.
Off to cook supper with my daughter in cloudy, Tampa, FL (this is my own version of comment Twitter?),
Deanna )))no hugs if ya don’t want ‘em((( lol – couldn’t resist
Gee, Pastor Hayward – you must BE God!
One of the things I find helpful within the Bible is examples of Grace and Mercy. Many of these occur in the OT. I think that it was not always helpful for early church leaders in the NT to be entirely gracious, witness the pastoral letters of Peter, Paul and James, although written in a Gracious spirit. The cross, after all, is the place where Justice and Mercy meet, and I think that it is only through continued commune with Jesus that we can walk this delicate tightrope. James maintains that Wisdom is supernatural and that if we apply ourselves diligently and continually to the word of God in study and meditation and prayer then we will recieve it/learn it (sanctification). I think improved relationships should be one of the benefits of a walk with Jesus, although I haven’t always found this to be the case.
I think one of the hardest things about being a Pastor must be getting this balance right, and as you are in effect God’s representative and Shepherd on Earth I think you are right to err on the side of Grace. But I do also think that Postmodern thought oversimplifies Grace, mistaking it for tolerance and acceptance, as medieval theologians mistake (mistook?) Love for Charity.
On a personal level I feel that Grace has made a Victim out of me, and I am currently trying to find a way to move through this mindset. I see Grace as a supernatural virtue and not always a practical solution to problems. Jesus life and ministry was a sublime combination of both, something all Christians should constantly try to emmulate.
John t.
You and I are at opposite ends of belief–however, I was were you are at for 33 years of drunkedness. Everything you have said and could say about God, the Bible, and all that is spiritual, I have said and harassed Christians about.
You are doing what I use to do. You take your human wisdom and understanding of what love is, and lay it up against God and his love.
The Bible says God is love–but since God does and sanctions things you do not understand, you use your human wisdom to declare God’s love faulty.
At one time in my relationship of love with my daughter, I had to tell her to move out.
Person A would say, “How could you do such a thing. You must not love your daughter. I could NEVER do such a thing.”
Person B says, “Wow, tough love. You must love her very much to put yourself through the pain of putting her on the streets.”
So human wise will make a decision as to whether I love her or not.
I don’t have to guess about God. Everything He does he does out of love. A Love that I understand in my human wisdom; absolutely not.
People have to make a guess as to whether I love my daughter or not–But I never have to guess about God’s love–no matter how he shows it.
Why does He say “kill?” I have no idea. He is God and I am not.
And No, I do not believe God needs us to do his killing. But He does from time to time.
Interesting ending comment by you: Thats how I know it, with the GOD given brain that I have.
———-Since with your God given brain you understand what is love and isn’t love,
can you tell me how this God formed your brain? If you understand God’s love, you surely can give me that answer.
fishon
Good stuff fishon…I appreciate your insight myself on this. I like to learn something new every day.
I just wanted john t. to know that before I came here and read your answer, I also looked it up online to see what information I could find about it since I wanted to know for myself.
Here’s what I found:
http://newcreationperson.wordpress.com/2008/08/12/does-the-bible-condone-the-killing-of-women-and-children/
As an aside, one thing I find is that many people don’t understand (or some flat out don’t believe) that God is a God of many attributes, not all ones that we would necessarily like. Yes God is love, mercy, grace etc. but He is also just! He also at times executes judgments and vengeance. (i.e. “vengeance is mine saith the Lord…”) I remember when I was in Bible college, we had a class on the attributes of God. I was in this class all year long. We never finished. Why? Because the attributes of God were inexhaustible and even though we studied it for a year it was still not enough to cover all of the different parts of His character.
Going to clean up the kitchen for the 3rd time today in Tampa, FL ** sigh **
Blessings to all…
Deanna,
Thank you for the compliment.
Good stuff you found there.
This is how I explain my simplistic understanding of God: On one end of the scale, God Love, on the other end, God is Wrath–but right in the middle of the two is JUSTICE.
And God’s Justice is much greater than my understanding.
fishon
MAKE IT a great tomorrow.
LOL….I am always truly amazed at the mental gymnastics people are able to do. If I was to do anything close the genocidal type behaviour listed in the OT I would be put in prison. And the reason for that, because you would know that kind of behaviour is Nuts. But………..GOD can because you dont understand his way of thinking, yet you have no problem saying that GOD is Love.
Fishon
I have no clue how my brain was made. I have no problem telling you what I consider love, just as you have been doing with me. Ordering murder of innocent children and taking virgins as captives is NOT LOVE, no matter how you try to slice it. But hey whatever works for ya. Just remind me when you come to visit, I might have to out of town that day. Just in case your god is having a bad day.
David
Just wondering if you think its ok that GOD uses us to kill people from time to time.
Well John t,
We will just have to end it here. We don’t see things the same, nor will I help you see. No one helped me either. It was an intense move of God, and I pray it happens to you.
Anyway, I just had a great hour of going out with the wife for a short drive. Saw 36 deer, a coyote, 50-60 quail–so I am in no mood to debate. Life is good.
fishon
Hey guys,
Not sure if you all heard about this column by Dennis Prager this week, but it’s called, “IF THERE IS NO GOD” and it’s been getting quite a bit of attention this week on different blogs and message boards:
http://townhall.com/columnists/DennisPrager/2008/08/19/if_there_is_no_god?page=1
Enjoy…
Fishon…just went on a drive with my son. No deer, no coyote, no quail, but……..um, but we did see a Dairy Queen. Ahhhh…should I really be eating this at 11:10 pm?
Signing off for the night enjoying chocolate in Tampa, FL…
Love to all
Fishon
I agree…….Life is Good
Come on Deanna, set up your own blog and get all this stuff out there!
Kim,.
She has one.
fishon
I have a hard time picturing people, lost in their sin, just making a decision to confess, unless they first received the grace God pours out on them. I know I didn’t. I couldn’t confess, because I did not know grace. I could not humble myself before God, because I did not understand Christ’s humility until *after* I experienced it. I could not repent, until a relationship with God was established by Him. (jovial_cynic)
That’s because they didn’t make the decision; they were drawn in by God’s love and mercy, then shown a path to repentance.
“For ye are saved by grace, through faith; and this not of yourselves; it is God’s gift: not on the principle of works, that no one might boast.” (Ephesians 2:8-9, Darby Translation)
Both grace and faith, from where I sit, are gifts from God.
Also…
“Consequently, then, it is not of him who is willing, nor of him who is racing, but of God, the Merciful. For the scripture is saying to Pharaoh that ‘For this selfsame thing I rouse you up, so that I should be displaying in you My power, and so that My name should be published in the entire earth.’ Consequently, then, to whom He will, He is merciful, yet whom He will, He is hardening.” (Romans 9:16-18, Concordant Literal New Testament; emphasis added)
“What then? What Israel is seeking for, this she did not encounter, yet the chosen encountered it. Now the rest were calloused, even as it is written, God gives them a spirit of stupor, eyes not to be observing, and ears not to be hearing, till this very day.” (Romans 11:7-8, CLNT; emphasis added)
“For even as you once were stubborn toward God, yet now were shown mercy at their stubbornness, thus these also are now stubborn to this mercy of yours, that now they also may be shown mercy. For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all.” (Romans 11:30-32, CLNT, emphasis added)
“For the anxious looking out of the creature expects the revelation of the sons of God: for the creature has been made subject to vanity, not of its will, but by reason of him who has subjected [the same], in hope that the creature itself also shall be set free from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God.” (Romans 8:19-21, DT, emphasis added)
In Ecclesiastes, it says that God makes everything beautiful in his time.
Some food for thought along this vein…
http://www.martinzender.com/Zenderature/free_will_and_the_oh_well_creed.htm
Thanks fishon for mentioning that. Appreciate it.
I’m just catching up on reading these comments tonight (you know fishon, how we have to cram all of our “one day of work” for the week in, today… ha ha! What a challenge…) so my responsibilities on that ended just moments ago and I’m blessed to be doing a little catching up in blog world…
Shelly, very interesting what you had to say…I’m checking the link. Thanks so much for passing that along. Indeed He does make all things beautiful in His time…I’m counting on it…
Blessings & love…..
Deanna
If you really like the Character of God(love). I suggest you read a book called. “The inescapable Love of God.” by Thomas Talbott.
john t.,
I’m interested in ALL of the aspects of God’s character and His attributes…certainly love at the top of the list …thanks for the tip…I’ll be sure to check it out. I always love a book recommendation.
Be blessed, my friend…
Denna,
I suspect I have it a whole lot easier than you. I pastor a small rural church in the Wheat fields of Oregon. The town I live in has about 400 people, and we are the biggest town it the county.
Don’t have to be concerned about drive-by shotings–gangs–or keeping our doors locked. Well, I do keep my .357 mag. beside the bed—-oh, that will get some of-um going. I just keep it in cause a rattler slips in the unlocked door.
There are Elk, Antelope, deer, badgers, and looks of fish all around me. I can see Mt. Hood, Mt. Adams, Mt. Rainer, and when St. Helens burps, I can see the plum. And to think, all of what I see around me just happened because a little speck of something from who knows where plunged into a slimmy pole a billion or so years ago. Go figure!
I am still trying to figure out how there became male and female of the species, from out of that slimmy bugger that crawled out of the yuk pool? Isn’t it amazing!!!!
I love being here. I am just a small town guy for a small town church. God sure knew what He was doing when He sent my wife and I to this place.
Hey, did you hit the DQ again? Wife and I hit the back roads this evening [we don't have sunday evening church], and I got pictures of 3 very big mule deer bucks. I use to hunt them, but not any more. I just love to look at them.
Well, I need to hit the hay. My go fishing — if I decide to fight the snakes off.
fishon
fishon,
Actually I understand the life you live. Until we came to Tampa to pastor, we actually pastored in a small town (not quite as small as yours but we had 4,000 in our town and it was so small they wouldn’t deliver mail to our house, we had to go to the post office everyday.) Seriously. Anyway, we pastored there for 8 years. Good times. Actually sounds like a place I was researching on the internet the other day to retire. We have at least 25 years minimum until retirement, but I had a really bad day the other day…and was so depressed. I know I am not going to quit the ministry no matter how hard it gets at times…but sometimes when I get discouraged I do think about retirement although we’re not anywhere near it, it somehow helps me cope in really low moments. LOL I found a little house out in the middle of the country the other day for the whopping price of $20,000. I fell in love with it, copied and pasted a photo of it off of a real estate site and put it on my computer and now when I get a little depressed I just stare at it and fantasize.
We’re having a better week this week so I haven’t looked at my little house in a while now. But it’s still there when I need to go back to it.
I’m not in the country anymore, but I do have snakes, unfortunately. Last night we had a mtg. at our house with some leaders and when I was saying goodbye to them in the driveway, one of them pointed out, “hey, there’s a snake on your walkway!” I had my son come out and get rid of it. Snakes are a definite reality here in FL. Sometimes I see them on my patio, other times I see a few at our monthly denominational ministers meeting. LOL Ahhhh….I couldn’t resist.
It’s hard for me not to hit DQ often – one of my kids works there. I lost 40 lbs. on weight watchers a few years ago and have kept it off and try to stay in check as much as possible but sometimes the Cheesequake Blizzard is too much of a temptation…
Blessings to you fishon, and friends…