Radical Grace and the Love of an Idea
The most radical kind of grace is the kind that has no expectations on the recipient. It loves and forgives before there is even a hint of worthiness or repentance. God doesn’t love what I’m to become. He doesn’t love the perfect idea or realization of David Hayward. He loves me as I am now. In fact, God loved me when I was dead, with nothing to offer and no hopes of offering anything back. This kind of radical grace, or love, is what the scriptures talk about.
Which is why it is just as important for me to love others in this way. It is completely expected for us to love those who show promise or from whom we can expect something back… even gratitude. But it is a radical kind of grace or love that loves and forgives without any hope of return. I reject the idea of loving someone because of their potential, or loving, forgiving or investing in the perfect idea of someone, my best idea of them. It is not remarkable to love someone because of what I hope they may become.
The same goes for the church. I refuse to love this community because of the potential it may have. It’s not helpful to love them because I believe they are going to be great. I am to love them now. Like the father loved the prodigal son even before he had a chance to open his mouth and repent, I am to love my community as they are… while they are on the road without any hopes of reaching the destination. I am to love them now, as they actually are, with no hope of change or response. I am to love them without an eye on my hopes, dreams, visions or expectations of them. I don’t love Rothesay Vineyard as an idea, but as they presently are.
If you liked this post, or would like to use it, please buy me a beer!
It’s a shame that too many churches view opportunities to care for people as recruiting missions… and it’s for that reason that many churches pay little attention to the homeless and destitute, because it simply doesn’t make good business sense – there’s no chance of good return on investment.
If we humbled themselves enough to realize that we can never offer God anything of worth, and that he loved us in spite of our worthlessness, perhaps we’d be free to share that radical grace with others.
Expectations aren’t the same as appeals.
Invitations aren’t the same as demands.
But sometimes there is a very, very fine line of delineation.
And many times we don’t want to really know where it is, do we?
Rationalizations seem to grow best in the fuzzy, gray areas.
jovial_cynic, it is a shame that all churches don’t pay attention to the homeless and destitute. For the ones who do, however there is incredible reward! I just want you to know that there is a HUGE “return on investment”! Perhaps it’s the “best kept secret”! We have found that homeless and destitute people have given us our greatest ROI!!! There is nothing like the testimony of someone who was homeless or destitute and now they are serving God. Just one of them can spark a fire that will ignite a church to reach out even more, realizing that some people just need to know there is hope, and they are just waiting for someone speak a word of life to them. Some of our homeless people who have come to Jesus have become our most faithful members, servers, and givers. That is NOT why we reached out to them in the first place nor why we continue to help them . But we find that it often happens that way because when people have been truly changed they have a way of wanting to proclaim it to everybody they know and help to rescue others. Yes, it’s a shame every church doesn’t realize the incredible ROI!!
David this is another great post and something God has been working with me on, specifically regarding mentoring. Recently someone I spent a very, very long time mentoring (who did quite well for years and years) went off the deep end. It was unbelievably painful to go through as I love them so much. It’s devastating to see someone who does have so much potential not only throw it all away but walk away from everything they once believed. I did find myself at first asking, “why the heck did I invest all those hours in them?” and “why should I ever do this again?” and a bunch of other questions like that and then the Lord said to me, “It’s not about you. It’s not even about her. You did it for ME out of obedience. And I’ve called you to continue to do it for the reason of sheer obedience ONLY!” I am now working through the emotional process of continuing to mentor people realizing all of it in the natural may go down the drain and some point and they may forsake everything eventually, but the reason I do it is not for the response or the “finished product” but for Jesus. Period.
I will say although I have come to a point where I can simply love people for “where they are at”, I do still have an insatiable desire to see them reach their full potential. How well I understand and struggle with the “fine line of delineation” that ttm speaks of. When does “wanting them to reach their full potential” for their sake, and crossing over into doing it for false motives begin?
You are right, it is our mission to do as you speak of. Extravagantly. And we all need a check up from the neck up at times to make sure we all do what we do for the right reasons. Thank you for sharing from your heart another great message that all of us need to hear, but especially those in leadership in the church who have been entrusted with precious lives…
Im all for Love, but remember you can still Love someone and have expectations of them. I love my children but I still expect they are polite, clean their rooms and take care of themselves. I will Love them even if they screw up, but I will Love them lots when I give them crap for their sh…. behaviour. I hope you dont think Love means you make no Judgement.
john t.,
I am with you. God’s love and grace our unconditional, but that being said, there is NO salvation without repentance. If that was so, it would be universal salvation, but we know the Word/God does not teach that.
Because God loves us so, He does have expectations. What kind of love would it be for a parent not to have and teach expectations of the child? Well, we have millions of them running around now, stealing, gang-banging, children having babies. Sadly, so many of them, though not all, never had one expectation given them by a parent.
Jesus was full of expectations for his disciples–as well as the apostles for the Body of Christ. I praise God I had parents that had enough love and grace to have expectations of me.
fishon
To who much is given, much is expected.
Fishon
“God’s love and grace our unconditional, but that being said, there is NO salvation without repentance”
You actually wrote that without notices the CONDITION……..repentance. Oops now thats a brain cramp.
And sorry to inform you but if I was to be a Christian my reading of the Bible and God would leave me to believe in Universalism. But at least we agree on some parenting stuff
whenever i write something like this or teach it, immediately the conversation goes to “yes, but there has to be expectations!” no “yes but”!
Does God “demand” that unbelievers repent? If so, can he not enforce his own law? Because certainly not all bow to the “demand” to be saved.
Does God have an “expectation” that all repent? If so, and he has foreknowledge, this must mean that his own expectations are either illogical or unreasonable because not all are saved. (Or are they? eventually?)
And referring to already-saved individuals, what does God expect and what happens when believers don’t live up to the expectations? Does God expect that they be holy when in fact the best that any of us can give him are worthless rags? Again, if so, that would make God illogical (expecting us to do what we cannot) or unreasonable (punishing us for not doing what is impossible for us to do.)
Maybe “doing” has nothing to do with it. Maybe there is no demand or expectation from God. Maybe there is only an invitation to repent and an appeal to each individual’s own will to make him not only Savior, but Lord.
That’s where some of those fine lines come into play…and I’m not sure I want them delineated. Because I’m not sure that our best attempts place the lines would be even close to explaining the glorious mystery of God and his intentions.
david – yeah, the “yes, but” crowd doesn’t seem to see that we love our newborn babies, who do nothing but cry, poop, eat, poop, cry, sleep, and poop, without them having done anything to merit our love for them.
THAT is what unconditional love *is*. We may hope and long for reciprocation, but Jesus loved Judas and called him friend, in spite of the fact that he knew Judas couldn’t live up to that love. Jesus knew the scriptures and knew that Judas had to betray Christ for the scriptures to be fulfilled. And when we realize that we are all judas, maybe we’ll get it. Maybe we’ll understand that God loved us while we were sinners, as we are sinners, as we will be sinners.
This isn’t a conversation about “salvation,” but about God’s love and heartbreak for a fallen world. And God so loved that world.
No buts.
“whenever i write something like this or teach it, immediately the conversation goes to “yes, but there has to be expectations!†no “yes butâ€!” (NP)
True…but we are human David. I think when we speak about love – getting to an unconditional place takes some serious time – and cannot happen in one sitting alone. I know I love people and care about them – I hate to see people hurt and destitute. But love is something we all have to work on – to push ourselves to a place of finding that love that can be unconditional. I am still in the process somewhere.
And sometimes love is conditional for a reason…and maybe conditions are not so bad (ie: discipline can be seen as loving – to save one from destroying themselves and others).
I agree with you and the post – we should love anyone anywhere – not dependant on their position and place in life. I am there with you. I may get burnt by those same people – but may our goodness help serve as a warning to those doing the burning.
“God’s love and grace our unconditional, but that being said, there is NO salvation without repentance” (fishon)
So God’s love and grace are unconditional – yet he puts a condition another action of his – his salvation plan? Why? Then grace must be limited also and not unconditional at all. If we are ’saved by grace’ and some do not get saved unless they repent – then grace has it’s limits (and maybe even love for that matter).
God loves us – always and forever – both those in heaven and hell? God’s justice is greater than His love.
God loves us – but we need to repent before we are saved. God salvation is at the whims of the human being *repentance is an action*. And God’s love is not stronger than His need for human action.
God loves us – but His grace is the basis of his favor towards us – it’s based on whether we accept God’s favor or not. God’s love is further weakened by His favor of humans.
Now those may all be true (or false) – but what it shows me – logically (yes – God must be logical if we are) – that God’s love is not His greatest attribute.
I think perhaps there is a misunderstanding between love and favor/blessing. True love is absolutely unconditional as David’s post outlined. Walking in favor or in the blessing of God is another story. There are countless examples in scripture where God says, “IF you do this, THEN I’ll do that. One example would be II Chronicles 7:14: “if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.” It doesn’t say that God doesn’t LOVE us, it simply gives a prescription to walk in his blessing. When I am sick, my doctor gives me a prescription. I have to admit, sadly, that there are times I have not taken it. That is my choice, and because I made that choice I did not get better. My health was not blessed because I did not follow the instructions, although my doctor took care to help me.
I have three children, ages 11, 17 and 18. I am head over heels in love with them. I am EXTRAVAGANTLY in love with them and that will never change. (Sorry David, I think I do need to insert a “but” here…) BUT…just between us here…my middle son gets to do a lot less than his brother who is just one year older, or even his sister who is six years younger, at times. Why? Because although I am crazy about the boy (and he’s my most tender child who loves the Lord so much) he consistently does not follow the expectations (oops! there’s that word) that his father and I have established for him. Reasonable expectations (his “reasonable service? could resist that reference…) such as coming in by his curfew, doing his homework, yada yada. I love my child. I do not love him any less than the other children. But there are sometimes he does have to deal with consequences for his actions. I can’t count the number of times he has said, “why can’t I do this if my brother is doing it?” and I have said, “Son, I desire to give you all the same and even more blessings than your brother currently has, but you need to folllow what your Father and I have set forth..and you consistently refuse to listen to us.” Sometimes I have said this with my arms around hiim, through tears. Other times it hasn’t been so warm and fuzzy.
I see both sides here. David, I agree with you 100% about loving people where they are at, and it being absolutely unconditional and unchanging no matter what they do or don’t do. I also see that expectations are a different issue that come into play in any relationship.
Blessings & love from rainy Tampa, FL…
ttm,
Maybe “doing†has nothing to do with it. Maybe there is no demand or expectation from God. Maybe there is only an invitation to repent and an appeal to each individual’s own will to make him not only Savior, but Lord.
————Heb. 12:14–”Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.”
fishon
jovial_cynic said
david – yeah, the “yes, but†crowd doesn’t seem to see that we love our newborn babies, who do nothing but cry, poop, eat, poop, cry, sleep, and poop, without them having done anything to merit our love for them.
———-Now why would you assume that we don’t “seem to see…?”
Yep, Jesus loved Judas, but he also said “He was a thief from the start.” I am guessing Jesus had a broken heart over that. I wonder why?
Sorry, but we are NOT all Judas’.
YOU: This isn’t a conversation about “salvation,†but about God’s love and heartbreak for a fallen world. And God so loved that world.
No buts.
——————–Sorry, I just can’t agree–cause you have done what others try to do–You didn’t finish the sentence: “And God so loved that World.” If it ended there we would be most miserable.
fishon
Dang, Deanna,
You think and write well. I think I am jealous. Oops, that would be sin.
fishon
fishon – the text says that we have all betrayed Christ, and that’s what I mean when I say we are all Judas. We all, like sheep, have gone astray. Every one of us. Our righteousness is like filthy rags to God, we cannot earn our keep. This is all straight from the text.
The thing about the “For God so loved the world” bit that I’m point out is that, while the passage gives a condition for the blessing (Everlasting life to those who believe), it doesn’t give a condition on that love. It doesn’t say that “God so loved the world if they believe. It says that God LOVED the world, that he was willing to redeem it through belief in Christ. There’s no condition on the love portion.
Aw fishon, thank you.
And to think I was just chastising myself here a second ago inwardly for my fingers flying as I write and not going back to check typos before I post. lol Seriously, I was…
You’re very kind. And I am inspired by your zeal and obvious passion for holiness…you are a blessing. I enjoy your writing as well – not just saying that because you complimented me (hate that kind of insincerety so I try not to do it) but really, I enjoy hearing your thoughts.
Still raining hard here in Tampa, FL………
Love to all…
… and no, I’m not preaching universal salvation. I do believe in specific redemption of specific people. I was just illustrating God’s *willingness* to redeem the world He loves… because that love is unconditional.
fishon,
Is Hebrews 12:14 a “demand”, an “expectation”, an “ideal” or a “suggestion”?
And in the last half of the verse (i.e., “…without holiness, no one will see the Lord.”) is the “holiness” earned, given, or recieved? Does that mean that all self-proclaimed Christians who don’t obtain a certain level of holiness will not see Heaven? If so, how can salvation be a gift? It sounds very much, then, like salvation is an earned reward.
Please explain.
the way I see it…
we are made holy by the atonement of Christ. We don’t earn holiness, we receive it as part of God’s gift.
We do have to make a decision to confess (I John 1:9) and the Word says he is “faithful and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us from unrighteousness.”
Holiness is not a reward, it is a decision. You must make a decision to confess and then simply receive God’s grace and and thereby walk in His holiness.
Deanna – I understand that the texts you provide seem to give some procedural guidelines on how grace occurs, but I can’t help but remember that Jesus cried out, “father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” And this was the cry of Christ over the lives of the men who crucified him. This was the heart of God, offering grace upon those who did not first confess.
I have a hard time picturing people, lost in their sin, just making a decision to confess, unless they first received the grace God pours out on them. I know I didn’t. I couldn’t confess, because I did not know grace. I could not humble myself before God, because I did not understand Christ’s humility until *after* I experienced it. I could not repent, until a relationship with God was established by Him.
Hi. Am just back from vacation and catching up.
Just a comment to SocietyVS earlier post “God’s judgement is greater than his love”? Am I missing something here…? That seems to me to be fundamentally untrue. The new covenant shows us that God’s love is far greater than his jugement – surely the cross shows us that? Radical grace is a huge and counter cultural idea and takes a lot of grasping by the human mind. Mercy and grace always trump judgement and the law. It makes no sense whatsoever, but it is true.
“Twas grace that taught my heart to fear, and grace my fears relieved, how precious did that grace appear…the hour I first believed.”
I do have to tell you, in appeared in my life 24 years ago, but I have yet to understand it and never really will be able to comprehend how deep and wide it is. l
ttm,
In reference to the questions to me about Hebrews 12:14–you don’t need me to tell you what God is saying. You do the study to show thyself approved. I can’t tell you what it means, but you aren’t going to believe me. But if you really want to understand the meaning–go for it.
fishon
fishon,
I respect you and your decision to not tell ttm what you believe, but just wanted to add that maybe ttm doesn’t know what holiness really means nor where to find the answer. Obviously they have read the scripture however perhaps they are having a difficulty understanding it.
ttm, perhaps it would help you to simply do a study on the word “holiness” and find out everything you can about it but I really don’t think the answer is as hard as you are making it out to be.
To be holy means to be set apart. How do you make something holy? By setting it apart for it’s intended use. When a person is holy, they have been set apart, not as a snooty “holier than thou” but set apart meaning “belonging to God.” I believe that scripture indicates that unless a person belongs to God they will not see God.
If you belong, you are “set apart” for Him, for His purposes. Your life is not your own anymore – you have been bought with a price and you now BELONG to Him.
Do you belong to Him? Are you set apart? Fishon is right about the fact that you will have to come to understand all that entails for yourself and only you know the answer to these questions I just asked. No one can judge your personal walk with God.
Love & blessings…the rain has stopped,
Deanna
p.s. um, in my last post I forgot my last two birthdays…I keep forgetting my age…I have actually “belonged to God” for 26 glorious years…lol
Even after months and months of discussions on line and a few years in Church, I still find it incredible that people who believe in A God actually believe that it would allow you to go to some incredibly painful place forever and ever and ever. WOW do any of you really believe that?
john t,
what kind of God would provide a sacrifice in the form of their only Son and endure a painful cruel brutal death to pay for my sins and yours so that we would never ever have to go to some incredibly painful place forever and ever?
an amazing God…
“amazing love, how can it be…that you my King would die for me?”
Deanna
Im sure youre well meaning, but come on. He didnt die. He was resurrected. And for Chrimminies sake people got tortured worse at Auscwitz.
john t,
You’re right, I do mean well. I am hoping you take none of my comments as harsh as they aren’t intended that way at all. But actually to have a resurrection, something DOES have to die.
Also, usually with just the whipping alone most people died, but He also went through the crucifixion. The main thing to keep in mind is that although many people over time have died or been tortured, there is no one yet who has gone through such a thing and been sinless.
And no, please, please do not read into that comment that I believe anyone has deserved their torturous deaths! No one deserves that. But what I am simply saying is that we have ALL sinned, we have all come up short, but the only person who was ever absolutely perfect CHOSE to go through all of all that for us.
There is a difference. I know I will probably not convince you of this, you will have to realize it for yourself but I honestly pray that Jesus will show Himself to you through His miraculous everlasting love. I’m sorry that for whatever reason (maybe some of His “followers”?) you haven’t been able to grasp…feel…sense His love for you but I really pray you will be able to. I do not mean any of this as a pat answer…I just say it out of genuine care for you.
Deanna, thanks for your very compassionate response to my questions. Just so that you know, I’ve been a believer for 34 years, have read the Bible through many times, have heard more sermons on “holiness” than I can even remember (and have taken notes on most), and know how to use the tools at biblegateway.com and studylight.org to do word studies. And, I take holiness seriously.
I’m not consumed with worry about where I’ll be spending eternity or if I’ve done enough to pass St. Peter’s entrance exam, so to speak. What I am concerned about is the manner in which so many believers seem to take the Bible and make it fit whatever situation or doctrine they want to endorse or “sell.” Then people who don’t know God very well yet buy into this “black and white” theology, BUT when they actually read the Bible for themselves, they see that things are really much more paradoxical and complex than they were led to believe. And then they start to doubt the people who have led them to that point…and sometimes to doubt the very One they claim to believe in. And then they wonder if they really do believe at all…
In my opinion, believers do a huge disservice to people by not admitting that the Bible is really a very complicated book filled with paradox and many things that seem contradictory. It bothers me when believers hand people a “formulaic” theology and then run (or patronize or excommunicate) when complex questions are asked. It seems it would be more honest to say from the very outset that our formulas, theories, Biblical understandings, church rules, church structures, and definitions may be working for us at that point in our own lives and in our communities, but these things SHOULD NOT be written in stone forever and ARE NOT what we pledge our souls to.
If I were to answer my own question about Hebrews 12:14, I would say that, at various times in my life, this verse has served as all four of the things I mentioned. Therefore, I cannot say that it is any one of those particular things for all people at all times. The way I understand the last half of the verse is that during those times when I have not remembered and honored “holiness”, I have not seen the Lord–because our relationship has been negatively impacted by sin. There is a barrier and not a fullness of relationship when I have “lived like Hell.”
But to make this verse a litmus test for salvation or a tool to determine another believer’s rank with God, to me seems very wrong.
Oh, one last thing, even though I am a believer and I do believe that there is most likely an everlasting torment for those who do not bow before God willingly, I can acknowledge that on an intellectual level I totally “get” john t.’s question. And your answer, though docrinally sound, seems inadequate in some ways.
Yes, it is incredible and loving that God would sacrifice his own Son to redeem us. But wouldn’t it be just as, or even more amazing, if He could have created a world without Hell? He does, after all, have a reputation for being able to do anything…
ttm,
thanks for the clarification…helps a lot to know where you are coming from. It’s a blessing to know you have walked with the Lord for so long. What a testimony. Honestly, I answered as I did because I wasn’t sure what your background is and didn’t automatically assume anything.
You make some great points!
I totally “get” john t’s question too! I have asked myself the same question. Haven’t we all? I have searched for the answer. I guess I was just excited to tell him what I discovered for myself…but I’m certainly not saying I’ve never wondered…
We all have these thoughts…if we never asked these questions, geez, what blockheads we would be, right?
Blessings,
Deanna (writer trapped in a pastor’s body) lol
Deanna
Tell you what, describe to me what you have discovered about God without any reference to the Bible or the resurrection story.
I would love to. Prepare for a book. Get a Snickers bar, and a coffee, my friend.
The biggest thing is, where to start…and, how do I bring it to any kind of close without totally taking this comment thread hostage and driving everyone crazier than they might already feel by my long answers. lol For anybody else who doesn’t want to read this long answer, please just scroll down and let it be between me and john t. and I apologize for taking up the room, but…
You are correct (if your thinking was) that it will be difficult for me to do this without referring to the promises of God (His Word) simply because all that I’m about to tell you results (for me) in the fact that He has proven Himself true to His Word. However, I am supposed to answer this without any reference to it, so here is my attempt:
What have I discovered? I can only speak from personal experience.
I have discovered that we really can’t say or sing, “He’s all I need” until He’s all we have.
There have unfortunately been a few times in my life where it seemed He was all I had. I know what it is to have issues of abandonment (to be rejected by not just one – wish it was that simple…) but SEVERAL sets of parents. God has been my parent. He’s the only Father I now have although I wish it wasn’t that way, it is. For many years I asked myself why others were so blessed to have the parenting that they have had, and at some point I finally gave up and realized, “this is it…it’s the cards I’ve been dealt” and had to find a way to deal with it. Many people turn from God at that point (can’t imagine loving a Heavenly Father if they were badly hurt by their earthly one). In my case, my birth father refuses to acknowledge that I exist. (My husband says, “I assure you she exists…I pay her bills – lol). I was adopted into a Christian home, with parents who are/were church leaders who crumbled in dysfunction and one night while I was at church my father left a note on the dining room table and moved 1,000 miles away and started a whole new life. We really had absolutely no relationship for 8 years. There’s so much more to it than I could possibly write in a comment thread, but here’s the point…through many painful circumstances that have occurred over the years, I still don’t have my earthly father. He is still alive, just not in my life as a normal Dad. As for my mother, like I said, she is a church leader who crumbled in dysfunction and I was never parented properly and always craved a normal mother and father. My sister turned to drugs, alcohol, bad boys, and so many other things until just a few years ago. She wasn’t able to make the transition from our crappy earthly Father to a loving Heavenly Father…until recently, praise God. But again, here’s my point of all this…
I have discovered that God is enough.
When my father walked out…He became enough.
When my mother turned loopy…He was enough.
When they weren’t there for me He sent His presence in a powerful way to comfort me…
When I was left behind, He found me and picked me up…
When my parents didn’t have my best interest at heart, He still did…
When I decided at 16 years old to completely sell out to Him despite everything that had ever happened to me, it was the best decision of my life. He’s been there at every turn although many times people have disappointed, He has always loved me enough to make up for wherever else I came up short.
When I went into full time ministry two years later at 18, got married a year later and began pastoring, he was with me and and gave me grace to manage a role that believe me, I was TOTALLY CLUELESS about and was a llittle nervous about being that my “Christian home” had crumbled in dysfunction and craziness although we lived at the church pretty much 24/7, growing up our lives were a mess. I wanted to do it differently. What did I discover about God? He is there to help us do what we can never, ever do on our own. Believe me, when you look at my life you HAVE to know it’s God that I could be doing anything I’m doing now. I learned He’s bigger than our crappy dysfunctional beginning that wasn’t our fault, and He is a God who REDEEMS all that if we just let Him.
One of my chief goals in life was to be a mother. Oh how I wanted to give a child what I never had. My hopes were so high. Unfortunately, I lost our first child that we had so many hopes for. I learned that God is a healing God, physically,emotionally, in every way shape and form He fills the empty places. Really, really, really painful things happen to good people. I would tell you why but I’m not allowed to quote scripture, so I’ll just say…bad stuff happens but I’ve learned although God knows about it He doesn’t cause it all, and I’ve learned He cries WITH ME. He also rejoiced with me when I was able to have three children who lived. He’s continued to rejoice, and even leap, dance, and go crazy with me as each of them have decided to serve Him wholeheartedly. I’ve learned He is the God who gives us the dreams of our heart as we stay faithful to Him and His commands. (Doen’t mean there aren’t a lot of bumps in the road, I’m just sayin’, overall…the blessings outweigh the pain. I’ve discovered when you surrender all, the blessings always exceed the pain wiith God. )
My next goal after being a daughter of God, wife to a man of God, and mother to a few natural children was to be a mother to many spiritual children. My life’s mission is to give to others what I never had. Sometimes that has gone pretty well for me and other times it’s been a living nightmare. I’ve learned one of the biggest heartaches in life is to invest yourself so unreservedly and transparently into people’s lives and having the very ones you help the most try to kill you. (At least emotionally…) I went into the ministry with the naive assumption that if you just love God and love the people it will be enough. I’ve learned sometimes you love God, you love the people and they still eat you for lunch.
What’s my point? When we were in our first pastorate and I flung myself out there for the first time to love God’s people as deeply as I knew how to do at the time, God was there even when His “followers” didn’t receive that love, turned on my husband and I (it was reportedly a clash in “leadership styles”?) ran us and our two little babies out of town, and left us homeless with all our earthly belongings sitting in an empty Sunday School room that a kind church let us use (couldn’t afford a storage locker), God was there to bind up my wounds. He showed me His everlasting love and care for me once again. The only thing that got me through that time was His presence and the constant reassurance of His love and care over me.
Those are just a few of the difficult times where God has proven to me who He is and shown me His character, but I have also discovered His amazing love and care for me through the way He has…
Provided in every way…
Been faithful to my family… (given me a family of my own far beyond what I ever dreamed…)
Given me a man who is THE most faithful Dad to my children that walks the planet (I’m partial…yes)
Given us a church to pastor that receives our love and care for them.
I’ve discovered this about God…when I had no idea in the beginning how to love because I was never properly loved, He became my TEACHER, my HELPER.
I know this is not some theological answer, it’s just my feelings, my emotions, but you asked what I discovered personally and this is all I know to tell you is what God has done for me and who He has proven Himself to be in my life.
My favorite worship song is, “You Alone.” It has been for years…because the words say:
You are the only one I need, I bow all of me at Your feet, I worship You alone
You have given me more than I could ever have wanted, and I want to give you my heart and my soul.
YOU ALONE ARE FATHER, AND YOU ALONE ARE GOOD, YOU ALONE ARE SAVIOR, AND YOU ALONE ARE GOD.
That pretty much sums up this filabuster on http://www.nakedpastor.com concerning the love of God and a little bit of who Deanna has discovered He is, and what He does.
Blessings my friend…and goodnight…from the now quiet & breezy Tampa, FL
addendum to filabuster…
[everyone groans here]
This is my day off, what can I say, I have all the time in the world to post.
I had one more thought. You did not expound further on your invitation for me to tell you what I have discovered and whether it was just what I’ve found out for myself about God in general, or what I discovered about God in relation to hell.
I was not avoiding the issue of hell, I just got stuck there on the goodness of God.
I certainly can’t speak for anyone else but you’ve only asked me what I personally discovered for me, and I resolved the issue of my question of hell by realizing the goodness of the Father in my life. I don’t follow him out of the fear of hell, nor do I give it any thought for myself anymore. Hell has nothing to do with whether I serve him or not. It’s His love that has drawn me that I can’t stay away from, not fear that keeps me in relationship with Him. I realized that in His incredible LOVE, He provided a way out of hell, for me.
i just wish everyone in the world would ask Him to prove Himself to them (give Him a real chance) and maybe they would realize it’s not about a “get out of hell free” card but an intimate relationship that is actually quite indescribable (although I’ve tried my best) that will be there to help you withstand every storm life brings your way, and be the very sustenance of your life.
I’ve discovered He’s the ALL IN ALL, bottom line. His presence has been all I’ve needed when it’s been ALL I’VE HAD.
Okay, i really think I’m done tonight.
Tomorrow I actually have to work…
Yes, we do work more than one day a week. I won’t be able to post as much and you may be saying, “amen, that’s what I’m talking about!” lol
Signing off with love & blessings in the still of the night in Tampa, FL…Deanna
Fishon & ttm: For me, the whole riddle is solved when we begin to dismiss our attempts to define grace, faith, and a whole other such terms-e-SPEC IAL-ly “holiness” to be elements of who we are instead of who He is. When we do, suddenly who we are becomes, not a religion we walk around thumping to others and attempting to conquers ourselves, but a Reality who indwells us, dealing with our humanity that yet we wrestle with as we are willing to surrender the same to Him…
Deanna: I loved your initial comment hee, for I felt it give witness to exactly what I am trying to say…
Deanna
Good for you. It seems you found the antidote to some of lifes pain, for me Im allergic to that kind of medicine, but hey, thats what makes life interesting. Differences. Oh by the way, I think if you re read the Bible you will see that the Idea of “Hell” isnt really there. But the idea sure does make for good “Crowd Control”.
It’s like your children. You love them because they’re your children.
john t.,
Actually I have read the Bible a bit, and I’ve found the “idea” of hell is not simply there, the “reality” of it is. As I said, for me personally my focus is not on hell but what draws me is the everlasting love of God but that doesn’t mean hell is not very real.
When you include terms like “Hades” and “Lake of Fire” it is quite possible that Jesus talked more about hell than heaven. I say quite possible instead of certain because different versions of the Bible use different words and when people are simply doing a “word search” count the number is different, however, the fact remains although it may be a number off here or there, it is mentioned many, many times. Let’s say it wasn’t even mentioned many times…if Jesus said something only once wouldn’t we still give attention to it?
“Crowd Control”? You really believe that hell is simply an idea that makes good crowd control? Wow. All I can say to that is, I think maybe you have been subject to some abuses that have caused you to actually go to this extreme to believe that there was some conspiracy to create hell when it really wasn’t there. And for that, I’m sorry.
Seriously, I do not say that sarcastically but from a caring heart, I say I’m sorry for whatever happened to you. I’m also sad for you that you are “allergic” to the everlasting love of God when it comes to whatever pain is in your life. It is evident you have really been hurt. I will pray for you, my friend. (I’m praying right now…I never tell someone I’ll pray for them and not do it. I hate when people do that.)
Blessings and love from Tampa, where it’s…raining again,
Deanna ((((hugs))) for you — I think you need one…
To the toon – if you have love inside you for yourself, you can love other people.
Deanna
LOL. Thanks for you concern, and dont worry to much, me and God are just fine. You know the thing is I just dont see things the way you do, which is fine, thats what makes life interesting. If you want to believe in Hell be my guest. I dont. Also I dont believe in the Christian take on some Old Jewish writings, but if you do, all the power to ya. As far as the Hug, well who couldnt use one of those, I will run it by my wife, you know the strange woman thingie may put her off but lets give it a try. And of course its Crowd Control, fear makes for great control. By the way, as a Christian you cherry pick from the Bible as you see fit, and thats ok because all Christians do. They make it work from their perspective. Because if you really took it at face value, as a woman you wouldnt be preaching in the church. Theres 2 scriptures I actually really like
1 thessalonians 5:21
Hebrews 8:10-13………….nows thats God talking lol.
john t.,
First I do have to say this about the hug, nothing weird intended there, I’m a person who hugs everybody I meet in person (unless they are clearly opposed to it in which case no biggie) but I’m fairly certain you are just making a joke and didn’t take it the wrong way.
I don’t see it as cherry picking however you’re right, we just don’t see things the same way and that’s okay. I would, however be curious as to how you would explain “cherry picking” when something is mentioned hundreds of times. Maybe I’m wrong but I always sort of felt cherry picking was mostly when people select a very few or obscure verses to try to substatiate their point of view. I haven’t heard too many people “cherry pick” with something that is mentioned literally hundreds of times in the Bible, but if you view it that way, like you said, by all means, that’s your prerogative.
I like you’re favorite scriptures, but then again with everything I read out of the book each day, I can pretty much say, “now that’s God talking…” LOL
Making pancakes for my family here in Tampa, FL……..
(((hugs to all))) Deanna
Sometimes I wonder why people go on and on about what God is and what God wants … and all of that stuff!!
I understand the importance of communication, but somehow I feel the good intentions through this “communication” has somewhat been lost/changed for
“the quest” to be right.
I wonder what would happen if all the energy spent on this “communication/sharing/bantering” , if it would be redirected towards spending time with family and the people around us, what would happen.
In other words, instead of spending all this time trying to prove that our theories regarding “god” are right and going on and on and on about our opinions, maybe we should go play Scrabble with our kids, or go for a walk outside with our husband/wives or maybe just go to the gym and exercise !! Who knows, maybe we would be able to find the true meaning of God in our every day activities!! Wouldn’t that be amazing ???
Oh there goes my Wife talking
I tried to make her understand her place but she was just too tough
Deanna
Numbers 31:17-18
17Now therefore,(R) kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. 18But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him(S) keep alive for yourselves.
Now that sure aint GOD talking.
Denise, I guess maybe it’s that some have the ability to multi-task. Most women in particular are usually really good at that and have the time to communicate/share/banter (especially about the love and the goodness of God!) AND spend time with our famiiles. Blessings and love to you…
living an amazing! life in Tampa, FL…
Deanna
Deanna
Hmmm no response to Numbers, I wonder why?
john t.
17Now therefore,(R) kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. 18But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him(S) keep alive for yourselves.
Now that sure aint GOD talking.
—————Now just do you know that?
fishon
john t.
Should say: Just how do you know that?
type ‘o’
fishon
Fishon
Well I know Love, and if God is Loving, that behaviour sure isnt. And the clincher is because if God was trying to cleanse his world of Evil he would make sure that all of them would be Dead. He sure as shit wouldnt tell them to keep the virgins for themselves. If you cant see that you wont believe anything but what you want. Thats how I know it, with the GOD given brain that I have.
And by the way Fishon, do you actually think GOD needs us to do his killing. WOW, kind of reminds me of the thinking that took down 2 buildings.
sorry john t., I’ve been out on appointments for a few hours and visiting my son at his work…just checking in here to see that for some reason maybe you feel I was dodging or afraid of your question. I have two answers to this…
1) I am honestly not certain about the passage. I do not have an answer for you. I am not afraid to tell you that. I don’t pretend to know everything about the Bible. However it does seem like Fishon is doing a good job talking about it with you.
2) I feel you have pulled out a minor obscure verse that has deviated from the main track we were discussing which was the love of God, and the issues of salvation/eternall life/heaven/hell. From my vantage point these are MAJOR issues that are spoken of all throughout scripture and are included in, but not limited to, the core doctrines of what most evangelicals believe.
You asked me to share with you what I have discovered about God for myself, on this topic. I told you and was also careful to tell you this is my experience and not a theological dissertation. Now in response to that, you tell me that’s nice for me, but it doesn’t work for you. Okay, I accept that…we are different, and you have not had the same experience. But then you go on to change the topic and pull out an obscure verse that would not be so unlike us discussing the love and grace of God and all of a sudden you asking me, “by the way, who was Cain’s wife?” or “How many angels can fit on the head of a pin?” and “Can God make a rock so big that even He couldn’t pick it up?” To be honest with you, I do not know the answers to any of those questions, however I do know what Jesus has done for me. I don’t have to know all the answers, but I feel that I know the most essential thing for me at least, and that’s that He saves, and His grace and love are enough for me — and for anyone if they will just call on Him. I choose to keep the main thing the main thing and not major in the minors.
And that, my friend are the reasons I did not answer you concerning Numbers but I’m sure there are probably a some people within this comment threat who might have an answer on that for you.
Off to cook supper with my daughter in cloudy, Tampa, FL (this is my own version of comment Twitter?),
Deanna )))no hugs if ya don’t want ‘em((( lol – couldn’t resist
Gee, Pastor Hayward – you must BE God!
One of the things I find helpful within the Bible is examples of Grace and Mercy. Many of these occur in the OT. I think that it was not always helpful for early church leaders in the NT to be entirely gracious, witness the pastoral letters of Peter, Paul and James, although written in a Gracious spirit. The cross, after all, is the place where Justice and Mercy meet, and I think that it is only through continued commune with Jesus that we can walk this delicate tightrope. James maintains that Wisdom is supernatural and that if we apply ourselves diligently and continually to the word of God in study and meditation and prayer then we will recieve it/learn it (sanctification). I think improved relationships should be one of the benefits of a walk with Jesus, although I haven’t always found this to be the case.
I think one of the hardest things about being a Pastor must be getting this balance right, and as you are in effect God’s representative and Shepherd on Earth I think you are right to err on the side of Grace. But I do also think that Postmodern thought oversimplifies Grace, mistaking it for tolerance and acceptance, as medieval theologians mistake (mistook?) Love for Charity.
On a personal level I feel that Grace has made a Victim out of me, and I am currently trying to find a way to move through this mindset. I see Grace as a supernatural virtue and not always a practical solution to problems. Jesus life and ministry was a sublime combination of both, something all Christians should constantly try to emmulate.
John t.
You and I are at opposite ends of belief–however, I was were you are at for 33 years of drunkedness. Everything you have said and could say about God, the Bible, and all that is spiritual, I have said and harassed Christians about.
You are doing what I use to do. You take your human wisdom and understanding of what love is, and lay it up against God and his love.
The Bible says God is love–but since God does and sanctions things you do not understand, you use your human wisdom to declare God’s love faulty.
At one time in my relationship of love with my daughter, I had to tell her to move out.
Person A would say, “How could you do such a thing. You must not love your daughter. I could NEVER do such a thing.”
Person B says, “Wow, tough love. You must love her very much to put yourself through the pain of putting her on the streets.”
So human wise will make a decision as to whether I love her or not.
I don’t have to guess about God. Everything He does he does out of love. A Love that I understand in my human wisdom; absolutely not.
People have to make a guess as to whether I love my daughter or not–But I never have to guess about God’s love–no matter how he shows it.
Why does He say “kill?” I have no idea. He is God and I am not.
And No, I do not believe God needs us to do his killing. But He does from time to time.
Interesting ending comment by you: Thats how I know it, with the GOD given brain that I have.
———-Since with your God given brain you understand what is love and isn’t love,
can you tell me how this God formed your brain? If you understand God’s love, you surely can give me that answer.
fishon
Good stuff fishon…I appreciate your insight myself on this. I like to learn something new every day.
I just wanted john t. to know that before I came here and read your answer, I also looked it up online to see what information I could find about it since I wanted to know for myself.
Here’s what I found:
http://newcreationperson.wordpress.com/2008/08/12/does-the-bible-condone-the-killing-of-women-and-children/
As an aside, one thing I find is that many people don’t understand (or some flat out don’t believe) that God is a God of many attributes, not all ones that we would necessarily like. Yes God is love, mercy, grace etc. but He is also just! He also at times executes judgments and vengeance. (i.e. “vengeance is mine saith the Lord…”) I remember when I was in Bible college, we had a class on the attributes of God. I was in this class all year long. We never finished. Why? Because the attributes of God were inexhaustible and even though we studied it for a year it was still not enough to cover all of the different parts of His character.
Going to clean up the kitchen for the 3rd time today in Tampa, FL ** sigh **
Blessings to all…
Deanna,
Thank you for the compliment.
Good stuff you found there.
This is how I explain my simplistic understanding of God: On one end of the scale, God Love, on the other end, God is Wrath–but right in the middle of the two is JUSTICE.
And God’s Justice is much greater than my understanding.
fishon
MAKE IT a great tomorrow.
LOL….I am always truly amazed at the mental gymnastics people are able to do. If I was to do anything close the genocidal type behaviour listed in the OT I would be put in prison. And the reason for that, because you would know that kind of behaviour is Nuts. But………..GOD can because you dont understand his way of thinking, yet you have no problem saying that GOD is Love.
Fishon
I have no clue how my brain was made. I have no problem telling you what I consider love, just as you have been doing with me. Ordering murder of innocent children and taking virgins as captives is NOT LOVE, no matter how you try to slice it. But hey whatever works for ya. Just remind me when you come to visit, I might have to out of town that day. Just in case your god is having a bad day.
David
Just wondering if you think its ok that GOD uses us to kill people from time to time.
Well John t,
We will just have to end it here. We don’t see things the same, nor will I help you see. No one helped me either. It was an intense move of God, and I pray it happens to you.
Anyway, I just had a great hour of going out with the wife for a short drive. Saw 36 deer, a coyote, 50-60 quail–so I am in no mood to debate. Life is good.
fishon
Hey guys,
Not sure if you all heard about this column by Dennis Prager this week, but it’s called, “IF THERE IS NO GOD” and it’s been getting quite a bit of attention this week on different blogs and message boards:
http://townhall.com/columnists/DennisPrager/2008/08/19/if_there_is_no_god?page=1
Enjoy…
Fishon…just went on a drive with my son. No deer, no coyote, no quail, but……..um, but we did see a Dairy Queen. Ahhhh…should I really be eating this at 11:10 pm?
Signing off for the night enjoying chocolate in Tampa, FL…
Love to all
Fishon
I agree…….Life is Good
Come on Deanna, set up your own blog and get all this stuff out there!
Kim,.
She has one.
fishon
I have a hard time picturing people, lost in their sin, just making a decision to confess, unless they first received the grace God pours out on them. I know I didn’t. I couldn’t confess, because I did not know grace. I could not humble myself before God, because I did not understand Christ’s humility until *after* I experienced it. I could not repent, until a relationship with God was established by Him. (jovial_cynic)
That’s because they didn’t make the decision; they were drawn in by God’s love and mercy, then shown a path to repentance.
“For ye are saved by grace, through faith; and this not of yourselves; it is God’s gift: not on the principle of works, that no one might boast.” (Ephesians 2:8-9, Darby Translation)
Both grace and faith, from where I sit, are gifts from God.
Also…
“Consequently, then, it is not of him who is willing, nor of him who is racing, but of God, the Merciful. For the scripture is saying to Pharaoh that ‘For this selfsame thing I rouse you up, so that I should be displaying in you My power, and so that My name should be published in the entire earth.’ Consequently, then, to whom He will, He is merciful, yet whom He will, He is hardening.” (Romans 9:16-18, Concordant Literal New Testament; emphasis added)
“What then? What Israel is seeking for, this she did not encounter, yet the chosen encountered it. Now the rest were calloused, even as it is written, God gives them a spirit of stupor, eyes not to be observing, and ears not to be hearing, till this very day.” (Romans 11:7-8, CLNT; emphasis added)
“For even as you once were stubborn toward God, yet now were shown mercy at their stubbornness, thus these also are now stubborn to this mercy of yours, that now they also may be shown mercy. For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all.” (Romans 11:30-32, CLNT, emphasis added)
“For the anxious looking out of the creature expects the revelation of the sons of God: for the creature has been made subject to vanity, not of its will, but by reason of him who has subjected [the same], in hope that the creature itself also shall be set free from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God.” (Romans 8:19-21, DT, emphasis added)
In Ecclesiastes, it says that God makes everything beautiful in his time.
Some food for thought along this vein…
http://www.martinzender.com/Zenderature/free_will_and_the_oh_well_creed.htm
Thanks fishon for mentioning that. Appreciate it.
I’m just catching up on reading these comments tonight (you know fishon, how we have to cram all of our “one day of work” for the week in, today… ha ha! What a challenge…) so my responsibilities on that ended just moments ago and I’m blessed to be doing a little catching up in blog world…
Shelly, very interesting what you had to say…I’m checking the link. Thanks so much for passing that along. Indeed He does make all things beautiful in His time…I’m counting on it…
Blessings & love…..
Deanna
If you really like the Character of God(love). I suggest you read a book called. “The inescapable Love of God.” by Thomas Talbott.
john t.,
I’m interested in ALL of the aspects of God’s character and His attributes…certainly love at the top of the list …thanks for the tip…I’ll be sure to check it out. I always love a book recommendation.
Be blessed, my friend…
Denna,
I suspect I have it a whole lot easier than you. I pastor a small rural church in the Wheat fields of Oregon. The town I live in has about 400 people, and we are the biggest town it the county.
Don’t have to be concerned about drive-by shotings–gangs–or keeping our doors locked. Well, I do keep my .357 mag. beside the bed—-oh, that will get some of-um going. I just keep it in cause a rattler slips in the unlocked door.
There are Elk, Antelope, deer, badgers, and looks of fish all around me. I can see Mt. Hood, Mt. Adams, Mt. Rainer, and when St. Helens burps, I can see the plum. And to think, all of what I see around me just happened because a little speck of something from who knows where plunged into a slimmy pole a billion or so years ago. Go figure!
I am still trying to figure out how there became male and female of the species, from out of that slimmy bugger that crawled out of the yuk pool? Isn’t it amazing!!!!
I love being here. I am just a small town guy for a small town church. God sure knew what He was doing when He sent my wife and I to this place.
Hey, did you hit the DQ again? Wife and I hit the back roads this evening [we don't have sunday evening church], and I got pictures of 3 very big mule deer bucks. I use to hunt them, but not any more. I just love to look at them.
Well, I need to hit the hay. My go fishing — if I decide to fight the snakes off.
fishon
fishon,
Actually I understand the life you live. Until we came to Tampa to pastor, we actually pastored in a small town (not quite as small as yours but we had 4,000 in our town and it was so small they wouldn’t deliver mail to our house, we had to go to the post office everyday.) Seriously. Anyway, we pastored there for 8 years. Good times. Actually sounds like a place I was researching on the internet the other day to retire. We have at least 25 years minimum until retirement, but I had a really bad day the other day…and was so depressed. I know I am not going to quit the ministry no matter how hard it gets at times…but sometimes when I get discouraged I do think about retirement although we’re not anywhere near it, it somehow helps me cope in really low moments. LOL I found a little house out in the middle of the country the other day for the whopping price of $20,000. I fell in love with it, copied and pasted a photo of it off of a real estate site and put it on my computer and now when I get a little depressed I just stare at it and fantasize.
We’re having a better week this week so I haven’t looked at my little house in a while now. But it’s still there when I need to go back to it.
I’m not in the country anymore, but I do have snakes, unfortunately. Last night we had a mtg. at our house with some leaders and when I was saying goodbye to them in the driveway, one of them pointed out, “hey, there’s a snake on your walkway!” I had my son come out and get rid of it. Snakes are a definite reality here in FL. Sometimes I see them on my patio, other times I see a few at our monthly denominational ministers meeting. LOL Ahhhh….I couldn’t resist.
It’s hard for me not to hit DQ often – one of my kids works there. I lost 40 lbs. on weight watchers a few years ago and have kept it off and try to stay in check as much as possible but sometimes the Cheesequake Blizzard is too much of a temptation…
Blessings to you fishon, and friends…
[...] August 27, 2008 by zoelavie Just a quick link to the nakedpastor who has some excellent thoughts about love. [...]