an appeal
I would like to see more people willing to serve the church. I mean serve. I think one of the things most lacking in the church is servers… people who are just willing to serve their fellow human being. But there’s a problem: even though we believe in grace, we still get exasperated, disappointed, frustrated, angry and eventually even give up when the people we serve don’t measure up to our expecations. Unlike our master who served and served and served until the people he served served him up on a platter and even then he begged for God to forgive them, we serve but stop as soon as the people don’t deserve it (or… don’t deserve us). Where are those who would serve and serve and serve the church, who would minister, in spiritual language, to the body of Jesus, without even expecting a thank-you? Where are such people?
I’m reminded of Guillaume Farel who pleaded with John Calvin to stay in Geneva to serve the church there and help the city. After much persuasion, Calvin abandoned his own plans to begin a rich but difficult life of service to the church. I confess to you all that I’m not anywhere near serving the church selflessly, but I desire it. And I desire to see others join me in my desire. I guarantee that serving the church will be filled with frustrations. It isn’t easy. There are great sacrifices to be made. But someone has to do it! The body of Jesus needs servers. The body of Jesus needs sacrificers. The body of Jesus needs slaves. That’s my appeal.
If you liked this post, or would like to use it, please buy me a beer!
I served and I wanted to serve. Then my pastor fucked me over.
I still want to serve. Just not him.
Not to be impertinent, David, but this is truly an insightful and remarkable statement of vision. And I mean that.
It challenges me in an area that I am not nearly as faithful as I should be. Like most people, I only want to serve where I want to serve, where I like to serve, in those places where it makes me feel good to serve. And so I usually have failed before I’ve even begun.
I’m in. I 100% guarantee you I will screw up but I’m in. Now if I could convince my pastor that my desire to serve and my willingness to fail is more than most seminary grads or experienced pastors bring to the table. I swear I’m going to move to NB and join ya’ll church David. I’m sure you don’t have it all figured out but from what I read here you are so much further down the road than anything I see in my area.
Great post….and except for one word in particular – I feel the same was Sarah feels.
My husband and I were members of a mega church for 21 years (I worked there for 13 of those years). We moved our membership over a year ago and I left my job there a few months ago! We went on several mission trips – and have a heart to serve both locally and internationally – but, seems like the missions staff was not willing to work past a HUGE miscommunication – that was actually not our fault. The year after we moved our membership – and while I was still on staff – the youth minister told me that my son would not be accepted on the summer mission trip (even though he had gone the past few years) – because we were no longer members there!
We have been serving in our new church and actually got involved with a few other smaller churches who have diverse ministries to our city. Wish we would have moved many years before….but, I am sure God had a lesson in there somewhere….we just have not yet found it!
Absolutely agree, this is right on the money David. Except for slaves… I think there are too many already in the church with a spirit of slavery, and not of sonship. The church doesn’t need indentured servants. It needs more who’s heartful desire is to serve, not any doing so out of a misplaced religious obligation.
i knew when i wrote “slaves” that it would raise questions. i’m talking about the kind of slaves that Paul talked about… someone willingly giving his/her whole life over to the service of another… always volunteer, sort of, can leave anytime, but means whole dedication… and like Luke said about a slave not expecting thanks because it is his reasonable duty… that kind of thing. not slavery in the pejorative sense.
When the gospel grabs a hold of someone, they often are filled with a desire to serve.
Of course, we want to be appreciated and noticed and not be ordered around like a slave. But we are dealing with a church full of sinners, and we ourselves are sinners.
I think it is only by God’s grace in pulling together people that would not ordinarily congregate that the Church survives at all.
If it weren’t for Him and what he’s done for me, I would have been outta there a long time ago.
Same here.
I only want to serve where i want to serve. I don’t even desire to serve. Most of the times, when I am to tired of serving, I just quit.
I desire to have a desire to serve.
I served and I wanted to serve. Then my pastor fucked me over(sarah)
Hope that wasnt literal.
i’m sorry that happened Sarah.
I served for the same reason a lot of other people served at my old church – to further “the cause,” (or “vision,” if you want to sound more spiritual). The “vision” was to GROW in numbers. Lots of people bought in. And, lots of people burned out. People were involved in multiple ministries, and still asked to do more – for “the cause.” People couldn’t sustain that kind of overcommitment, especially based on this cause. The ministry even got to be like a bureacracy, with politics and cover-ups.
I now attend a church that says we are “jewels, not tools,” and the mission of the church is to love God, and love people. It is evident as you walk through the front doors. Love is the is the vision, not growth. But, it grows. Duh!
Now that I am healed up, and feel safer, I feel that I want to contribute to this church and allow God to use me there. I trust that I am truly loved for who I am, not what I am able to do for the staff. I trust that they wouldn’t allow me to sacrifice my family (my #1 ministry) to get done what’s need to get done around the church. I trust that they would value my service and defend me when necessary. I regret the time that I didn’t serve out of fear. I feel that it is wrong, but no one is making me feel that way. In fact, one pastor said that I should take a year or two to heal and rest. I’ve taken 2 1/2, but I think I’m ready now….It’s still scary, but I’m not going to let the devil take me out!
The people who shared with me, thank you.
Actually, I think you might be a bit off base here, David, although I certainly am with you in what I think you intend to say. Back when I was a deacon for about three years, I had a friend who was taken into a meeting, given his “papers” to seek employment elsewhere, and over nothing but a period in his life where he was struggling, not with anything sinful, just “things” in general. Others saw only that he was slackful in his work and bid him “goodbye”, not “can we help you”. When one of my other friends asked why I didn’t step in to help this fellow, I replied that, as a deacon, my responsibility lay with the church, not the individual; and, oh, how many years down the road have I regretted that point of view. You live. You learn.
As the Church, we do not serve the Church, but Christ; and I think we have lost sight of that much too often along the way. Within the Church, we may be believers, but we are yet “in” the world in more ways than one; so, yes, there is a serving each other as much as a giving of ourselves to the poor, the hungry, the guy next door. When “the Church”, however, becomes exalted, the focus, the object of who we are, we have lost the way, a few steps wide of center.
My thoughts anyway…
jim, i see your point and agree. paul, somehow, saw serving the church equal to serving Jesus because he saw the church as his body. “why do you persecute me” Jesus said, meaning the church. I think that was one of the biggest contributors to his theology of the church. that’s what i mean. i agree that sometimes, if not almost always, the “church” is not the “church” in its behavior.
I agree with you David.
As a pastor one of my frustrations is that people in the church will often say, “what’s the church going to do about this?” (Said in regard to some need they see in the church, helping someone in the church who is in need, taking care of a need in one of our ministries, etc.) I reply, “I don’t know. What are you going to do about it?” (Because THEY are the church.) Most often when people ask what the church is going to do about something they mean the staff or those in the church office. Because that’s what they think we exist for but they obviously haven’t read Ephesians 4 and if they have, it’s been a long time ago and they need a refresher.
The same people who tell you they don’t have time to help with anything because they are consumed with caring for their family are usually (not always, but usually) the ones who demand the most out of the church for their family! They will say they have no time to help, but demand the greatest children’s ministry in the world for their kids. They will say they are too busy to serve but ask, “why isn’t the quality of this or that better in our church like it is at such and such church down the road?” (Well the answer to that is usually that the church down the road has more, and better committed people serving who make it happen…)
I realize this is not always the case, but more often than not I find that many of today’s people have very high expectations of their church but low investment.
I also find as a pastor that the majority of the time the people who cause issues in the church are not the servants. Those who are busy rowing the boat don’t have time to rock it.
Just my .02 cents from my perspective and that of many pastors that I know…
Another great post, David…appreciate you.
“…Calvin abandoned his own plans to begin a rich but difficult life of service to the church.”
David, I just have to wonder why you would choose to name-drop Calvin in this post. Do you really consider him a shinning example?
One has to wonder, was this “service to the church” before or after Calvin served Michael Servitus up on a platter to be burned at the stake, very slowly, because Calvin disagreed with Servetus’ “heretical views”?
Would not hurt my feelings in the least if Christians never again referred to Calvin as a positive example of faith, of course, unless they feel he was justified in his inhumanity.
i agree bob in many ways. but i simply can’t seem to find the perfect human being to use as an example. i know calvin had servitus killed, and that is often brought to my attention. i can’t see the point, however, in completely jettisoning everything he did and wrote.
David
Maybe thats the point. We strive to help even while being imperfect. We are all challenged in some way, yet that doesnt have to take away from our ability to “serve” or help others. Hey even mobsters sometimes do Loving things.
by the argument that only perfect Christians need be remembered, we need to get rid of the whole NT. Especially Peter and Paul.
“Where are those who would serve and serve and serve the church, who would minister, in spiritual language, to the body of Jesus, without even expecting a thank-you? Where are such people?” (NP)
I tend to agree – this is my biggest pet peeve with the way church is done. Servanthood is a side note for most of the congregants – they really get to be served and are not included in much. For me, we need to allow the church to allow more people to participate in the being ’servants’. I think the people genuinely want to help – but are not afforded the chance…and it also depends what we mean by servanthood?
Is serving being a ministry leader in a church? I like the idea pastors and teachers get that title – but the real problem is when that is all there is to it. Servanthood, in the Jesus examples we are given, is very person to person and personal (ex: washing someones feet). For me, servanthood is more about a ‘hand-on’ expression of giving and sharing than the basics we find in a church service. Not that what is done there is not important – it is – but that there is sooooo much more to it than just that.
This is where my pet peeve starts actually – what do the congregants do to be of service to the church and surrounding community?
On a side note, the Baptist church by my house this Sunday is a having a service in the park – complete with hot dogs, worship, and someone speaking (Serge Leglerc). That’s what I mean by real service and church service. Why couldn’t this church just goto the park meet and greet people from the neighborhood, feed them, and offer a place to come and talk if they were ever interested? No, they have to have what they are used to – a stupid church service – in a park.
SocietyVs,
My church is also meeting in the park this Sunday. We’re getting together at 9:00am for a short time of singing and a short devotional. Then we get to work! We are cleaning and mulching the [poison ivy infested] trails through the woods in the park. Some of us will be just walking around the park talking to people and inviting them to the feast we’re having after the work is done.
This is the second time we’ve done this, if I were to have things my way we’d do it every week!
The only thing about it is in the leadership meetings we have, the discussion always turns to, “how are we going to do w/out the offering that week.” Hate that more than I can express!!
Anyway, if anyone is in the Springfield, IL area this Sun, come out and join us at Washington Park.
“i agree bob in many ways. but i simply can’t seem to find the perfect human being to use as an example. i know calvin had servitus killed, and that is often brought to my attention. i can’t see the point, however, in completely jettisoning everything he did and wrote.”
I understand David, but he had a man killed because of his religious beliefs. David, he had a man killed. Couldn’t you use someone who, perhaps, maybe disagreed with someone because of their religious beliefs but, never the less, let them live?
Of all the Christians out there who did not kill anyone, David Brainard, Reese Howells, Richard Wurmbrand, etc, you chose to use one who was an accessory to murder.
I’m sorry David. Am I over-thinking this? How can I just ignore this? How can I read this and just shrug my shoulders and not say anything? Surely you don’t think I am just looking for ways to discredit Christianity? I mean, Calvin is easy, isn’t he?
David, doesn’t one very, very bad action committed by a leading Christian make you suspicious of what he has done that has not been recorded for all to see? Shouldn’t it give you pause?
I quote Robert Green Ingersoll often. He is probably my favorite agnostic. I have read that he had a tendency to drink to much. I think he may have neglected his family also. I can forgive those human frailties. If I ever learn that he had someone unjustly punished (burned alive because of religion?) and never admitted remorse, I will dispose of his writings and never quote him again…but, that’s just me.
Here’s a thought that will probably draw fire… Jesus had it easy. He only served for three years before he was crucified. I was ordained 21 years ago; my ministry has been 7 times longer than Jesus’ was. I have church members who committed their lives to Christ as a teenager and are now in their 80s and 90s. Jesus knew he had only a limited time to accomplish much. It’s much hard to keep the enthusiasm high for 70+ years.
That’s what my husband says.
Bob
“If I ever learn that he had someone unjustly punished (burned alive because of religion?) and never admitted remorse, I will dispose of his writings and never quote him again…but, that’s just me.”
There aint no truer words than this.
Daniel – re: hating the ‘what are we going to do that week about the offering…”
I just wanted to give you a different perspective. I have heard the same type of things expressed from people, and this is what I don’t think a lot of church people understand…
How exactly do they expect the bills of the church to be paid that week? I think some people think ‘church fairy’ comes and takes care of stuff like that. They don’t realize, reality is, your pastor goes in to the office on Monday mornings and has to figure out what to pay first…the church mortgage, light bill, bathroom supplies, not to mention Bibles, curriculum for discipleship classes, yada yada yada…yes of course it involves salaries but that’s just the beginning.
Here’s a thought – would you be willing to just pay the bills personally for the church that week since you have such a heart to do this and hate to worry about the offering? When asked by leaders before about that, our answer has been, “no problem we can go without the offering, just go ahead and cover the bills for the week.” Suddenly everyone gets quiet about whatever it was they are proposing that we should do (in lieu of taking the offering). Obviously on one wants to take on the responsibility of paying the bills of the church that week but reality is somebody has to.
My husband and I did go into the ministry to primarily love people, serve them, outreach, disciple, equip, train, etc., but a reality is also that the finances of the church must be taken care of. It’s a not so fun part that we don’t like. I wish it wasn’t reality at all but unfortunately it is.
I just wanted to give you a different perspective as to why you might hear, “what are we going to do about the offering?” It’s got to come from somewhere and most churches especially these days don’t have a big reserve just sitting there. Rare is the church that does.
Blessings to you…
I know this will open a can of worms, but what the heck…
If there is no church building, there are no bills.
If there is no church structure, there is no overhead.
If there are no pastors, there are no salaries.
Of course that means that houses and hearts become churches.
Parents and friends become “teachers” and “Sunday morning entertainers.”
Neighbors and friends and coworkers become guides and counselors.
If someone needs help, those who have extra money in their pockets from their ‘tentmaking” jobs that month can help. Or not. The only one “telling” them to (or not to) is the Holy Spirit.
Oh, my gosh, it sounds almost Biblical.
Deanna, Your answer IS exactly why I hate the talk of offering. What am I going to do about the offering? Please don’t take this as complaining but i’m going to pick a guy up for discipleship tonight, Help work on a lady’s house (she’s having a hard time) this Saturday, and spend all day Sunday serving my neighborhood and city in the park. Frankly, I could care less if the pastor gets paid or we can rent our meeting place this week, or if we can keep the office, or if we can pay for the billboard rental. Truly, when it comes between giving money to the church for that or offering God my time and effort and actually having money to feed my kids, I choose #2. I’m pretty sure that’s ok with Him too…
ttm, Agree totaly. I keep looking at the underground “churches” in China and thinking, “Hey, they’ve got something going on there!”
Peace
Re: the underground churches in China, Perry Noble had a fantastic blog on this this week:
http://www.perrynoble.com/2008/08/19/a-church-growth-rant/
Daniel, I think that’s fine that this is your take on the whole offering things as long as you don’t expect the pastor or the church to do anything or be there to serve you or your family. It’s not that they aren’t there to serve, I’m sure. But since you are a mature believer who has taken the posture that you don’t care that your church building exists nor that your pastor is taken care of, I’m sure you also have absolutely zero expectations being that you do not believein contributing to the financial support of your pastor/church so that they can be avaiilable to serve you.
Daniel,
Speaking as a pastor who makes $21,000 before State, Fed., and SSI is taken out, you may not care if the pastor gets paid or not, but the fact is, if he doesn’t get paid, it will be his house you are working on next–oh, you might need to give his kids a cup of water and a piece of bread. Since you don’t ‘care-less’ for his financial needs, his family will be in the same place as that lady you so ‘SPIRITUALLY’ help. Let me get this: One [lady] care about, the other [pastor] you don’t. You are the one that said, “Frankly….”
fishon
Fishon
I think therein lies the problem. The fact that you get paid to “spiritually” advise people. Its not like they get to partake during a service. The congregants sit back and listen to your take on the bible, they dont get to share during that time. Its one sided. Now as far as payment, maybe you should let them know that it costs money to have the entertainment before and after and the cost of the building to house those services. As far as paying for GOD talk, I dont think so.
Pastors are not paid to “spiritually advise people.” Perhaps you are not aware of all of the many roles and responsibilities the majority of pastors have. It is actually to inexhaustable for me to list them here. Last year one of our board members who wanted the congregation to know this information on “pastor appreciation month” asked me to compile a list of the things pastors do as a part of their ministry and honestly I quit typing after two pages and gave up and said, “this is enough, it will give them the gist of it…”
In addition to all the 5,628 things that pastors do on a regular basis, we also do things like emergency calls, funerals, yada yada. If you don’t care that your pastor is taken care of with a reasonable salary, and they have to get another “tentmaking” job, then how in the world could you ever expect them to be there if you were…taken to the hospital…someone in your family died…etc. Even if a pastor has a small congregation, this is overwhelming. I have a friend who is bi-vocational pastoring 30-40 people and he cannot keep up with it and does very little pastoral care because his “tentmaking job” requires his attention and he only has so much vacation or personal time at work. The parishoners are left to try to find another pastor in town to take care of it. I cannot imagine that you would want your congregation or pastor to live this way if they did not have to!
The majority of pastors out there are not driving sports cars and flashing diamonds. The majority of them are just like David described!!!
I cannot believe that you would see the good in helping a lady on her house who is having a hard time, but not making sure the shepherd who loves and cares for you and your family is provided for with a decent wage. The Bible says that those who do this work well are worth double honor. No, I don’t believe that means they should be millionaires. But they should be provided for. Your pastor is a person too…with needs and feelings, and he/she has a family.
I know I gave you the link from Perry Noble on house churches already but just wanted to add my own .02 that although I don’t think house churches are “wrong” I just don’t think they are for everybody. Some people desire a pastor, a church, a place to gather, etc. If you don’t, that’s fine, just don’t go. But don’t expect a bunch of things out of your pastor and church, while caring nothing about their well being. For all the “love and care” you seem to have for the lost, where is the care for your pastor or your church?
I’ve started a reply a number of times now but have had to erase it. This is a stupid argument.
Please don’t compare a woman who reached out for help to a pastor that takes home somewhere around 80% of our small churches budget a month. Yep, 80%. another 18% goes to office and “worship space” rental”. That means that for every $100 I give $2 goes to something other than us serving us. I would much rather feed my kids with that money. I’m not bringing in the big bucks either…
This woman you compare pastor guy to recently lost a husband, a son-in-law, had a son go to war, and now has her youngest daughter (who is a new single mother) living with her. the house has no heat which is fine for now, plenty of heat outside, but winter is right around the corner. She can barely scrape together enough money for her property taxes with her overnight job at Wal-Mart.
We’re helping her cause she needs help not for any spiritual benefit, heck she doesn’t even go to our church and we don’t expect her to.
Help me out here, what am I saying that gets you so upset?
As far as China goes, I didn’t read the whole article, but I just want to say that I don’t see the house church as the answer either. The answer is somewhere in between…
oh yea, and maybe a little persecution would do the western church a world of good…
And before you say it, I don’t expect my church to serve me. I would love to see our church truly act like brothers and sisters in Christ and treat each other as we would our family. A family cares for each other and even when it’s hard we strive to get together and love each other.
People serve where needed and expect nothing in return.
The world knows us and Jesus not by our buildings or how cool our senior pastor is but by our love each other. Let’s try that…
What has me so upset? I can’t speak for David of course, but as for me…
Your seemingly cavalier attitude towards your pastor, and your church. If it’s so bad and you are not in keeping with the core values, I am not sure why you are still there. But anyway…
One can never tell what one truly intends by what they write on a comment — for that matter you don’t know my heart — however, I detect from your writing that you are all about outreach and you really pretty much don’t give a crap what happens to your pastor or your church. Fine. Why have a pastor? Why have a church?
I can only speak from my experience however mine seems to be the one the majority of my pastor-friends have, since I hang with some likeminded people. I am a pastor and I consider my relationship with my people an important one. I am there for them in the good times, the bad times, in the middle of the night, when someone has a baby, when someone dies, yes I preach, teach, counsel, yada yada, but the point here is a true shepherd has (in my opinion) an important role in one’s life. In many cases, I have invested countless thousands of hours into their lives, their families, and loved and cared for them. This is a MINISTRY first and foremost, but yes it is also my job and my source of income.
For a person in the church to have a true shepherd who cares, and then they turn around and say, “I don’t really give a rip whether my pastor gets paid or not, or whether the church mortgage gets paid…” WHAT??!!
I admire your heart that seems to beat so strongly for outreach and helping the needy (I’m all about that too) but my point, and what I am so “upset” about is that you don’t seem to place much value on the relationship between pastor/church member, and kind of just dismiss it as irrelevent. I’m sorry if you go to a church where the pastor really doesn’t care about anybody. Perhaps you got a sucky pastor and if that’s the case, I am truly sorry. (Again, why don’t you move on if that’s the case?)
At the heart of it I feel like what you said sort of devalues what people like David or myself do everyday of our lives day in and day out, and sort of saying, “who cares what happens to them…”
Thankfully my church doesn’t have this attitude and they care. In fact my church does a few things above and beyond that they really don’t “have to do”, but wow, I am so grateful for their love and care.
Deanna:
So, you have a friend who is trying to do two jobs–pastor and tentmaker–and he struggles to do either with excellence. I feel for him. Yet isn’t this “two-job” expectation exactly what pastors subconsciously expect of their congregations? The church members are to go to their “regular” jobs 40+ hours a week (so they can tithe toward the church budget) and also make time to run cameras, teach children, make hospital visits and meals, paint rooms, cut grass, arrange fellowship meals, restock the care closet, manage budgets, and more (so they can contribute to the church vision) because the staff “can’t do it all.”
I’m not saying that every single pastor fleeces the flock or tries to get favors from wealthy churchgoers (although in my experience many do). I’m not saying that churches should withhold fair pay for pastors that serve their congregations. I am questioning the very function of the occupation itself.
Frankly, I would rather have a friend’s presence at a hospital than that of someone who barely knows me but shows up because it’s his job. In the latter case, I would rather have no one there but God. The older I get, the more I think that cremation sounds like a better alternative than a funeral service and burial. If I need spiritual guidance, I have friends. When people get married, they don’t need a pastor. If people want theological insight, there are books, websites, and podcasts.
Just a brainstorming challenge: What would happen to the church, to society, to our world if pastors suddenly went on strike? Would the world be desperate to get them working again? Would it be a big deal? So what, if churches go under?
The last church I attended had a 6-7 million dollar a year budget, with 45% of that going toward staff salaries (and they boasted that that figure was less than the average church’s percentage). Can you imagine what 7 million dollars a year could do for a community? It could provide job training so that people don’t need to ask for food and clothing. It could provide therapy to help struggling adolescents and recovering addicts. Instead it goes to salaries, insurance companies, the electric company, technology companies, publishing companies, coffee companies, and catering services or the food industry.
I’ve been struggling to understand the whole concept of church lately. And along with that goes a struggle to understand the functions of pastors and deacons. And my overarching question is wondering what God wants “church” to look like and if God hopes it will evolve into something different than it currently is. Is it destined to have a traditional structure until the end of time because it is locked into a particular structure? Will we have “church” in heaven? So many questions, so little time…
Deanna
I agree with all you say. As a Pastor just make sure you let people know that its an offering, not a required Tithe. Because as you know a Tithe implies its mandatory and it is not scriptural. I have no problem with giving, in fact I enjoy it.
Please don’t think I’m trying to devalue what you all are doing I’m not trying to say that. I’m trying to say that we should all be doing that and why should one get paid for it and another not. Plus, you only work one day a week right?
I wouldn’t say that I have a sucky pastor but I would note one thing: I have been asking for prayer for my wife for a while, she is going through things, she and the kids have not been to “church” for 3 weeks now. With the exception of 1 guy (who btw, is like a pastor at our church, runs a mens ministry and works a nearly full-time job), NO ONE has asked her or me if everything is ok. When your church is 50 or so people small, you’d think at least the pastor would give her a call. There’s other things but that one is fresh.
Why don’t I just leave? Cause that’s not the answer. I made a covenant agreement to join together with this church and I’m going to stick it out for as long as God wants me to. I’m an idealist so in my heart I think I can change things.
Not that I’ve not thought about it, not that I don’t want to. The main thing that holds me back is the people I truly love there.
Please don’t think I’m some ogre that want’s pastors and their families to starve and live in the poor house. I just think our way of doing things is broke and to me, the first place to start is with 1. staff and 2. buildings. The Church can do so much to ease pain and suffering in this world, but we are, as a whole, too busy serving ourselves.
Daniel:
Now I see why my former pastors bragged about the 45% figure. ;^)
ttm -
I never said that church members should do ALL that or even several things at once. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I believe every member should serve in at least one way. Many, many do not, in a majority of churches. They just attend, receive, and leave. Serving in one ministry in the church is not a FT job or even comparable to 40 hours of work. In our church, for instance, we do have people who do absolutely nothing, but then again we have a few people who have a tendency to want to take on too much in addition to their family/job and we limit them because if not they burn out and then their families suffer, plus the quit everything, versus being continuing to be helpful in at least one area. We usually try to limit people to one “leadership” role and one “participant” role, if that makes sense…in other words, we don’t want them leading more than one ministry, and participating through serving under someone else’s leadership. Anything more than that, they tend to get overloaded.
A pastor, however is not just serving in one area of the church. Most pastors I know are working at least 50 hours a week for the church and that’s a low estimate. They are wearing all kinds of hats. There are many weeks (not proud of it) that I have worked 70, 80 hours or even more. And the Lord convicted me of it, on behalf of my family and my health.
No, I don’t think ANYBODY should have two FT jobs, pastor or no pastor.
If Pastors/Churches disappearred, what would happen? I personally believe it would be devastating, for a myriad of reasons. Of course I am referring to salvation preaching, bible believing churches where the gospel is presented and people are truly helped.
Just wanted to say……………one more thing…………..
post away…………………
i won’t be here for a few hours…………..
not ignoring anybody who directs a comment to me, I’m just….
GOING TO CHURCH!
lol
Seriously, I am…
ttfn
Deanna, I hear what you are saying. The last church I attended (Frankly, every church I’ve ever attended.) specialized in burnout but couldn’t admit it.
I’m not exaggerating when I say that the “one” position I served in at my last church involved four hours every Saturday night and three hours every Sunday morning. When my own parents (with a very strong work/church ethic themselves) questioned the time I was spending at church, I realized they had a point.
The person who was given the title of being leader of our ministry and who served alongside me spent at least 15 hours per week doing this “one” position. (She also worked parttime, homeschooled her three children–one who has special needs, and dealt with health issues of her aging parents.)
We were expected to “grow” the ministry by bringing in at least one other adult every few months. A pyramid scheme at its best.
We were given a list of “rules” that we were expected to enforce in our area of service, and we obediently did so. We encountered some backtalk from the youth, but were surprised to find that the ones breaking these “rules” most often were staff members and their families. They were not very happy when we confronted them with breaking their own rules. But when I said “If you don’t know the rules and you continue to break the rules, why not just throw the rules out the window?” I was told that I was being rebellious and “stupid.”
Money and inventory disappeared under our leadership. It turned out the staff were helping themselves to the inventory during the week, but expecting us to account for everything. We put a lock on the inventory. That didn’t create very happy feelings.
Money and inventory started disappearing again. When we told the staff who we suspected was taking it, they told us they could not confront that person because of his race. We were then given more responsibilities within our area of service.
We had a “pep rally” for church volunteers every three months at which tons of money was spent on cute little motivational doo-dads and then we’d have a meeting at which more expectations were presented to ensure that everyone was working toward the church’s ever-growing vision. Of course the more we grew, the more work there was. And so on and so on and so on….
I wanted to serve. I wanted to make a difference. I wanted to help the youth in our church connect with God and with an adult in a meaningful way that had eternal payoffs. But it started to feel like nothing more than a crappy job with WAAAAAAY too many office politics. I quit. And I’m still glad I did.
In the base case, I think pastors and laymembers need more communication. Not the sappy, kiss-ass kind that ensures you will remain on the team. Real, honest-to-God, this is how it is. Is this how it should be?
ttm said: Yet isn’t this “two-job†expectation exactly what pastors subconsciously expect of their congregations?
———Subconsciously—–No, I consciously I expect it.
The church members are to go to their “regular†jobs 40+ hours a week (so they can tithe toward the church budget) and also make time to run cameras,
———-We don’t have cameras
teach children,
——–My wife teaches the children cause the others say they are not qualified
make hospital visits
———I visit everyone–not just the congregation
and meals,
———-I was the potluck dishes
paint rooms,
———–Did that right along with everyone else
cut grass,
———–I am the designated lawn mower–do my best praying then
arrange fellowship meals,
————Just have potlucks, not much arranging
restock the care closet,
———–Don’t have one–we help the Methodist who have one
manage budgets,
———
and more (so they can contribute to the church vision) because the staff “can’t do it all.â€
———–I am the staff, but thank the Lord, we all do things together, and each of us has our place———–and because many of the congregation have a ministry that is not paid, I too have a ministry that is not paid. I do weddings and funerals for church and non-church members for NOTHING. Just like my folks do ministry for nothing more than to serve God.
Some of you folks have had bad experiences: Sorry about that. But not all of us and not all churches are like you have experienced. Some of you throw everyone together into one pot. To bad you are missing out on the good.
fishon
fishon,
You make some good points. It sounds like your church members are blessed to have a leader who understands that the best church leaders are servants. There are probably millions of pastors like that whom I have not been privileged to meet. So to toss all pastors into the same pot isn’t fair.
You’re right. Some of us have had really bad experiences. And sometimes I do wonder if leaving church might mean missing something good. Who knows? Maybe one day I’ll be ready to visit and join a church organization again or maybe I won’t ever go back.
One thing’s for sure though–I’m fully convinced that God will bring “good” things my way and allow “bad” things, too, whether my rear lands in a pew on a regular basis or not. And I no longer have to feel guilty about throwing away those expensive, but pointless, “motivational doo-dads!” ;^)
ttm,
It’s not that the truth. God will allow good and bad to come our way–in a congregation or not.
Serious question. What do you mean “motivational doo-dads?” I am guessing I am too small time to know what you mean!
I do believe it is easier for people to see the servanthood of pastors of small churches, whereas, it is probably more difficult to see it in large churches. And sadly, there are those you and others discribe.
I am most blessed. I have a wonderful congregation that loves me, and loves me enough to say, “I don’t agree,” and they encourage me to tell them the same.
The ladies didn’t let me have a say in the color of paint for the sanctuary, but then they didn’t complain about my painting. I didn’t grumble; well, I suppose now and again my wife has to hear me say, “Wrong color.” She tells me to “shut up. We were not going purple.”
fishon
Fishon
Ah but youre here, that tells me plenty.
The motivational doo-dads I was referring to are things the church buys in bulk (like party favors) to remind the 20% of the people doing 80% of the work that they are “appreciated” or to remind them of some salient point presented in the “pep rally” speech in order to engender excitement! a desire to grow! an ability to recruit poor souls! pride in belonging to this group!
I’m talking about things like: key chains, pens, mouse pads, balloons, t-shirts, coffee mugs, legos, preprinted notebooks, roses, etc. (Please don’t ask me to remember the points being made with each item!)
Hundreds of dollars were spent every couple of months to “bribe” workers to work harder and to advertise the church. I usually donated the propaganda to Goodwill. But after I finally left the church, I couldn’t even bring myself to donate the remaining goods because I wanted to spare other people the devastating experience of church abuse. So, some functional stuff went in the trash for ethical reasons. And would you believe I still felt guilty throwing it away? That church abuse stuff goes deeper than anyone who hasn’t experienced it will ever really believe. But I will say that God’s ability to restore faith and wholeness goes even deeper than that…
Now, I feel a heck of a lot less guilt and fear. But my conscience is functioning better than ever because it is spared the static of the church.
Hmmm…static, motivational doo-dads, propaganda…I feel a church and radio metaphor forming in my mind.
John t.
You lost me. Don’t know what you mean, but then maybe I am not suppose to.
fishon
ttm,
Oh, ok, now I get it. Yep, junk.
I have given gifts a couple of times in the last ten years to my Sec. Not cheap, either. But never done with the thought of bribery. Just a thank you. Pep rally, no way. I would look stupid in one of those little skirts.
fishon
:^) That made me laugh.
I’m a homeschooling mom of 3 that only gets on the computer once maybe twice a day in short intervals so I’ll probably only have this brief chance to make a comment. I hope to try and check back again soon : )
I have to say I can see a side to many of those of you whom have taken the time to give a response. Just a question though, maybe just to add a different ingredient to the mix.
Deanna you said “Thankfully my church doesn’t have this attitude and they care. In fact my church does a few things above and beyond that they really don’t “have to doâ€, but wow, I am so grateful for their love and care.” My question is since you seem so pleased with the congregation that God has so lovingly provided you with what do you do when you get a person like Daniel or ttm who seem to have such great passions for outreach but have been ‘jaded’ by the church experience. Do they just become a thorn in your side? Someone extra who doesn’t see things the way the majority does (the way most ‘pastors do’)? From the answers I’ve read it seems the responses would be glad my congregation doesn’t have the same thinking as you “why don’t you just move on”.
Now I’m not specifically saying that any of you wouldn’t step up to the plate and give an extra dose of love to a person like Daniel or ttm but I haven’t read into any of that in these responses. True though Deanna, “One can never tell what one truly intends by what they write on a comment”. That is a very true statement! Emails are hard to read into what is truly in someone’s heart.
Again just wanted to add something else, maybe a different perspective
love to you all! have a great day.
Someone with a view other than the core values of our church would certainly be welcome to attend our services. However, it’s important that they have understanding of what our church stands for, and why. And that they realize upon coming that they are not there to change our mission, vision and core values.
Quite honestly I’m very blessed in that our church leadership is very specific as far as the way they expect not only the congregation to relate to one another, but also exactly how the expect pastor to be treated. This is simply understood within this congregation. There is no question about it, nor would our leadership be open to change in this regard. If someone comes in who does not believe that way would want to attend services here, they would absolutely be welcome, but what they believe would not change a thing in the way things are done.
If attending our church, I would not tell them to move on simply for believing that way, certainly not! However I can’t imagine that they’d be happy sitting there week after week, or year after year, hearing and seeing how our church does things and it not driving them crazy. I think life is too short to stay in a church you are disgruntled with. When I say “it’s best to move on” I am not saying that simply for the pastor’s sake, or the church’s sake, but for that person’s sake. Really, in that case the church or even the pastor becomes sort of a “thorn” in that person’s side because they are so unhappy with the way things are. What does it do to a person’s mental health to stay in a place long term where they are so upset about the way things are done? It just doesn’t make sense to me to remain in a place for so long where you are opposed to the values of the congregation.
If you are in a place where they take very good care of their pastor, and shower them with appreciation and you don’t like it…well, why stay there and be miserable about it?
Actually, I have had things like this happen before just as you speak of, so I do know exactly what I’d do. Example: we have our mission, vision and values on large wall hangings in the foyer, and also on our bulletin. There’s no doubt when people come in exactly what we’re all about, and after we open the service each Sunday, we verbally tell them exactly what our church is all about again to reiterate it. I’ve had two women in the past few years who came as visitors, heard/saw all that and then called the office to say they didn’t agree with what we stand for, etc., and have issues, with the intent of trying to get us to change something so they’d feel comfortable in coming here. I said, “We’re glad you visited and you’re certainly welcome to attend here. We do care about you and your family. However, I need to let you know that absolutely nothing will change as far as the values of our church and the direction we’re headed.” One did not come back and goes to another church. The other came for about 2 months and could see that exactly what I said was true, and it wasn’t going to change, and she just became more unhappy so she did move on. I truly do wish her the best and hope she’s very happy. It’s clear every church is not for everyone…there are many different ways of doing things, and that’s why I’m personally VERY glad that in many cities there is a church on every corner!
Although, quite honestly, I can’t imagine someone seeking out a church on purpose where they don’t treat the pastor right… seriously, that sounds a bit off to me if that’s what someone is doing.
I want to ask forgiveness for my comments yesterday. While I do stand by what I was trying to say, I see that what I actually did say was offensive and hurtfull.
I by no means want to create strife and hurt but I did and I’m sorry for it.
Deanna and others, Thank you again for what you do. I may not totally agree with you but who cares what I think, sorry again for my words.
Grace & peace
Daniel,
It’s all good…
Thank you…you have a tender heart. I will pray for you that things get better. It also seems like you are going through a lot and don’t have a lot of support. I’m sorry for that and wish things were different for you.
I will pray that things begin to turn around, and that good things would begin to happen for you and yours…
Blessings & love,
Deanna
Deanna said, on August 21st, 2008 at 8:22 am
Someone with a view other than the core values of our church would certainly be welcome to attend our services. However, it’s important that they have understanding of what our church stands for, and why. And that they realize upon coming that they are not there to change our mission, vision and core values.
————Deanna, I agree with the above statement and everything that followed. You laid it out well.
fishon
I no longer serve my neighborhood church; but I am determined to serve and to love my neighbors.
Living in an inner city neighborhood, I see addiction, prostitution, and hopelessness enfleshed in the lives of my neighbors.
My former church? Well, let’s just say that the leadership there is focused inward not outward.
I don’t have the time or energy to serve the body of Christ. I’m too busy welcoming the homeless single dad and his teen son into our home (the family shelters are full in our city), and I’m too busy helping the Latino family down the street obtain legal immigration status.
Forget serving the church. It’s forgotten us.
“I don’t have the time or energy to serve the body of Christ. I’m too busy welcoming the homeless single dad and his teen son into our home (the family shelters are full in our city), and I’m too busy helping the Latino family down the street obtain legal immigration status. Forget serving the church. It’s forgotten us.” (Jerri)
I like what Jerri has to say – I think he gets/understands the ‘good news’. The church is too focused on itself in my opinion and overlooks people like Jerri works with – on an almost daily basis. Even if they do something foir the poor – it’s very menial and a side track – not something of focus for the church (or congregation).
I grew up in an inner city also with the problems Jerri also talks about – and I knew all the churches in the neighborhood – there was about 6 or 7. None of them really did too much for the poor or deal with the problems of these people. No one played Jesus for the poor in my opinion. People just are not willing to lay their lives down for this ‘good news’…it is good but not great for them.
I see where Jerri stands – I stand there with him. I have always helped people from the community I grew up in – even when the church did nothing or could do nothing (which was quite often) – or overlooked their problems as ‘meaningless’ (being not spiritual and all). But someone has to care for the people with ‘no hope’ in this world or the next…and someone needs to lay down their life so they can know it. Who is going to help the gang-member find self esteem? The abused spouse to find safety? The prostitute to find hope? The drug addict to find a ‘way out’? Churches cannot deal with these scenarios – they are scared to.
The church, to me, has become a middle class focused entity. It is now concerned with problems that effect the middle class – from theology to practice. It has become useless to me in that regard…I grew up poor and my heart will always be with the oppressed in society. The church always plays it ’safe’ – as far as I am concerned – everything is so…comfortable.
[...] August 21, 2008 at 10:51 am (Uncategorized) Comment taken from Naked Pastor’s ‘An Appeal‘ Blog [...]
“it’s very menial and a side track – not something of focus for the church (or congregation)” I totally agree with this statement! I’ve been to many of the churches in my own area (I started searching at age 17) and this is exactly what I have seen. Now I have met a few pastors, my own included, who truly do have a heart for the needy and overlooked, BUT the amount of attention they actual give to those who are hurting seems “menial and a side track”. Their family and their church come first. And many have the intent of being on mission continually BUT again I don’t see that. One reason I’ve seen is they ARE scared to step out too much in faith and are ‘waiting’ for God to send them specifically qualified people to lead in different areas…what about equipping the ones right before their eyes (sorry that was a little tangent). Being on mission to me means equipping ones self and congregation with the word of God to be in and amongst the world more than just a planned gathering here and there (a trip to the food bank, a special service in the park, ect ect). Those are good starts but TRUE community to me is sharing your life, day in and day out, with those who Jesus’ heart ached for (I believe He didn’t leave anyone out…each of us past, present, and future were on His mind on the cross).
I think this is maybe where those in the middle group, not quite understanding the function of the typical church today, are. Like the Casting Crowns song says “If we are the body, why aren’t His arms reaching, why aren’t His hands healing, why aren’t His words teaching…and if we are the body why aren’t His feet going, why is His love not showing them there is a way…there is a way”.
We were and are called to be the salt and the light of the earth, not just to occupy a seat in a building, not just to maintain a select group of people, not just to treat those in need as a ‘project’ to take care of here and there. I truly appreciate the individuals and leaders who are really doing there best to help grow and encourage discipleship. I’m not one who hates the typical churches of this day, I’m just one of the few who see a need for something different, a something very real and tangible, an action to follow the many words.
love again to all!
I’m back again… lol…
Regarding what we were talking about earlier, I wanted to add this because I think you might find it interesting and show you more of my heart on this matter. Not that I haven’t blabbed on enough already…lol
In both cases where the two women were not in accordance with our values and called the office to argue their point, it’s incredibly interesting what their issue was. I promise you, these are two “normal” women who don’t appear to be mentally unstable or anything. But…
They were upset about our church covenant concerning how we treat one another! Each week in our service we say the covenant that our members have taken: (if you are a member of our church you have this memorized…I’m not kidding we even have two year olds that have it committed to memory…) It is:
“You will never knowingly suffer at my hands. I will never say anything or do anything to knowingly hurt you. I will at all times seek to help and support you. if you are down and I can lift you up, I will do that. If you need something and I have it, I will share it with you. No matter what I find out about you, either good or bad, my commitment to you will never change. And there is nothing you can do about it.”
Okay, so that is an agreement our members make when they become a member and we make it clear to our attenders that they are welcome to attend but if they stir up any problems, gossip, backbiting, yada yada, and we find out abuot it, that we take that very seriously and will confront it. Our motto is that we are an “extravagantly loving” church. If Christians don’t have this same belief, quite honestly we don’t want them here. (Never had this kind of complaint from an unbeliever. 100% of them have come in and embraced it.) We say of our church, “mean people don’t last here long.” Hurting people, yes. Needy people, yes. Broken people? Yes. But we draw the line at mean at least on our church campus. We’re not going to allow our members to be abused and mistreated and have our church be a hub of gossip and discontent. It’s our mission to be an extravantly loving church. Anything that gets in the way of that we deal with.
So these two women (not related – don’t even know each other) went ballistic over that and said, “it’s wrong of you to expect this of people as a condition of being a part of this church. I can treat people however I want to, and it’s none of your business what I say or don’t say about people. You can’t force me to treat people properly.” (I promise you, they said that. I know…shocking! The one said I was a “control freak” to even consider doing something like this in the church.) My answer to both was, “you’re right, we can’t say how you will treat people on your own time, but we can say that if you are on this property you are not going to hurt anybody. And if you ever apply for membership here, you will agree to this covenant or remain an attender.”
They both were very serious about the fact that we needed to get rid of our covenant, and stop going in this direction. Both liked other things about us and would have liked to stayed but just weren’t in agreement with this which is pretty much the main things we’re about. I said, “it’s never going to change, but you’re welcome to attend if you like.” They both moved on. And that was fine with us because we really don’t want mean Christians at our church. They just tend to drive unbelievers or seekers out in droves and we are about reaching and restoring people.
Thank you for being patient with my long post(s) and taking time to read it…
Blessings!
SocietyVs,
The church is too focused on itself in my opinion and overlooks people like Jerri works with….
—————-Oops, there you go again putting all the eggs into one basket.
Hey, SocietyVs, tell me, how many of the top 50 cities in population in the US have you visited? I can get you the names if you need them. And in those cities you have visited, how many of the churches have you visited?
fishon
Oh man…i just read the last few posts and all I have to say (for this post at least – lol) is, where in the heck do you people live? all in the same city? I just can’t believe there are no churches different from what you describe…and the stereotype hurts me quite honestly because it’s different from many churches that I personally know.
I’m in Tampa and I’ll tell you I can name a bunch of churches right off the top of my head without having to think hard at all…who don’t just do some little menial ministry to the poor or needy but have something major in this regard and are changing lives. Being in FL, we have a ton of homeless people here and such, and many churches/ministries that reach out to those who are disadvantaged. I am really sorry, very sorry that you haven’t not encountered such churches. For the do exist!!! I implore you friends to keep looking until you find one. DO NOT GIVE UP.
My church is one of many that I know who are feeding people on a weekly basis (we actually give enough food for a week, not just a day), clothing people, helping them find jobs, etc. Last night at church in one of our small groups we had two homeless people, along with a few professional types, a single Mom and a few guests.
This does exist. It really does. I am just so sad that unfortuntely you seem to put this label on churches of being totally inward or only caring about themselves…I know that’s the case with some. But not all. Really folks, this is like getting divorced and remarried and blaming and taking out everything your ex wife did on your new spouse.
I love the church! I will pray for you that maybe you will open up your heart and give it another chance.
Okay, I’ll try to be quiet now. (one of my hardest things to do)
If I were there, I’d give you a hug. Really.
Blessings
ttm , August 20th, 2008, 11:15 pm – I can relate.
Fishon – you in a skirt. Now there’s an image
!
Daniel – thanks man.
Deanna – you describing your church a lot more fully helped me. Thanks.
Just had a thought. Is there a place where believers (in church and out) can say, “hey, I’m in such and such place, let’s get together and serve.”?
I’d make one if there isn’t but alas, my skilz aren’t quite there.
Sarah,
My wife has a picture of me in a beautiful little yellow number with a head full of golden locks. I must say I was full-figured too. I wore it to a church halloween [oops, can here the reaction coming] party.
I was a young deacon at the time. The elders called me in the next week and gave me a tongue lashing. I didn’t get upset witht he old boys; I just laid it to their poor eyesight. They could not see the beautiful for my beard.
But when I said something stupid from the pulpit a couple years ago, my wife ran out the picture the next weeks service, and did the congregation hoot—-now I can see——–I was an ugly woman. That must has been the problem with the elders. But then, I ain’t a beauty as a man, either.
fishon
Fishon,
I’m sure your wife disagrees.
Peace everyone,
Sarah
“Hey, SocietyVs, tell me, how many of the top 50 cities in population in the US have you visited? I can get you the names if you need them. And in those cities you have visited, how many of the churches have you visited?” (Fishon)
How about we save the tavel fare for those 50 cities and you just send me all the churches (on-line) you think I should check out? I mean, if they have a website it should say directly what they are doing – as far as ministry goes. I know some smaller churches do not have a website – I don’t got the funds to check them all out.
My quote is a generalization – this is true – but the church in general does not care about the poor – sorry – them’s the facts. From websites, to my personal experience, to television – this topic is very lightly touched upon (if ever touched upon). I am not saying there isn’t some help towards the poor – usually dealing with the consequences – not the symptoms – and basically nothing that deals with the class of people truly struggling in our society – nor treating the symptoms. Sorry, from my experience – the church is not too concerned.
I stand to be corrected – give me at least 6 proofs from a variety of churches that shows me programs (I don’t care where on this planet) built to take care of the poor in society (including widows, drug addicts, gang members, impoverished, homeless, elderly, etc). I don’t know of any to be honest – so I want to be enlightened here…so I can say ‘I am wrong’ and the church is moving in this direction.
In the early days of this country ( USA) almost all the hospitals and colleges were founded and run by churches.
It wasn’t too long ago (the seventies) when 3/4s of all the nursing homes in the United States were owned and operated by the Lutheran Church.
What’s going on lately? Many things, I’m sure. I have no specifics.
SocietyVs – ooooohhhhh (cyber scream) this is so freakin’ exciting. Thank you for the invitation to give you some names of churches. (I’m serious, please don’t think I’m being sarcastic here), I am truly excited to tell you about some churches…you have asked for six, so here’s seven to start, but I’ll post more if you wish…or if you aren’t happy with these:
Dream Center Church – Los Angeles, CA – Pastor Matthew Barnett
Reimagine Church – Pastor Mark Scandrette, San Francisco, CA (this is a church although their literature and advertisements are not real “churchy” and that is intentional.)
Inner City Church of Minneapolis – Pastors Chris and Monica DeLaurentis
St. Paul City Church, MN – Pastors Steve & Jacquie Sullivan
Chicago City Church – Pastor Anthony Earl
Salvation Army – many people forget, they are a church first!
Last but not least, my church, Northside AG, Tampa, FL…pastored by moi and my dh!
WHY, WHY, WHY am I so excited??!! Because I am hoping this brings some HOPE back into your heart, and you see, the church world is not all as sucky and non-caring as you think it is, and maybe you will even think about hooking up with one of these kinds of places because they sure can use people like you who have a heart for this…
Also, honest to God I say this for absolutely no personal glorification whatsoever but I really want you to see there are people out there in the church who care for those such as you describe. Our church ministers to MANY in this regard, but just one INCREDIBLE testimony of a transformation that happened in one man’s life is shared in a post on my blog here that I wrote just last week: http://lifetimeintimateportraitds.blogspot.com/2008/08/give-god-glory-part-i.html
Also another story of one of our precious homeless people who was totally transformed here: http://www.northsideag.org/events.html
These are just two, and these folks are now some of my dearest friends, but we have many, many, many. I’m talking people who were homeless, on crack, you name it, and now they are totally on their feet…not just treating the symptoms, but having a CHANGED LIFE!!!!! Another guy, Jerry, who was homeless just last year is on his feet, has a great job, is preparing to get married to a wonderful Christian woman, AND feels a calling to be a missionary to Japan!!! I don’t have a blog post about his life but it’s probabaly a great idea that I write one to give God the glory.
This is why I am so excited to tell you this…what you speak of does exist. Thank you for listening to my enthusiastic rambles…lol
Blessings, blessings, my friend!
SocietyVs,
I just wrote a huge respond to you, but I see it didn’t go through. I will not do it again.
I am only going to say this. Website????????? If you base thinking and “facts” off of websites—and little experience–wow!
Oh by the way—I visited 9 sites and posted their ministries that you complained about. It was easy to find them. They are all over.
Here’s one just for your enjoyment:::::THE Pentecostal Church of Hempstead on Greenwich Street may seem an unlikely place for teenagers in baggy jeans, flashy earrings and T-shirts displaying defiant words like ”Bad Boy” to gather for breakfast.
Yet there they were, 80 rambunctious Latino boys, potential recruits for the church’s youth outreach program, bused to the church sanctuary on a school day in mid-February after having been identified by their teachers at Hempstead High School as current or aspiring gang members and associates. (A similar breakfast for 50 black youths at the school was held last fall at a Hempstead restaurant.)
If you can’t find any——-THEN YOU HAVEN’T TRIED.
Heck, another::::Emergency Food Pantry: The church operates a small emergency food pantry stocked with non-perishable food items. The pantry is available to anyone who has need. Contact the church office to schedule a pick-up.\———-notice: anyone.
Dang, another:;;;;Alcoholics and drug addicts make up only 30% of Celebrate Recovery’s membership nationwide. “We are all broken,” program founder John Baker says. “We have all sinned. We have all missed the mark. We are all struggling with a hurt, habit or hang-up. It’s time for the church to be a safe place–’safe place’ are key words–for hurting people to discover and receive Christ’s healing grace.”
If I go more it won’t go through.
fishon————so much more.
Not that you are one fo these pastors, but the pastors that I have served under and with lack the “shepherd sacrifice” I call it like Jesus displayed. Will they go all the way and forsake it all for the call? The cross of a pastor is a great one. Sometimes the pastor flesh bucks against the post from time to time and it brings confusion to the weak sheep. I say this with much experience, but never knowing it all. Have a great day
Deanna,
I too found many and know of many of those churches that SocietyVs can’t find. I had laid up 9 with a story behind them, and not a duplication of yours. But Must have been to much cause it got lost in cyberspace.
In all of the cyber talk here, I forgot about myself. I was a drunk and the church I went to had a SALVATION program—-and here I am, free, safe, and loving the Lord. Heck, the salvation program trumps all the other programs, SocietyVs is wanting.
fishon
Thanks Deanna and Fishon – 10 sites to check out on what I have requested – what more could I ask for (it’s like Elijah pleading to God where are all the followers – and then finding 70). I will check into each one of them and maybe post something on it – one of these days. I am hoping it is all cracked up to be as you have said – and since you both make them sound quite genuine – i am going to look into it. Thanks!
fishon – sounds like you and I eat out of the same box of Cheerios, and we don’t even know each other!
Yeah, I hear you on the SALVATION program thing…I went through the same one and it had the same results you describe. I didn’t even need 12 steps to get there…
Here’s one more, SocietyVs: http://commontable.org/ This is a church in Vienna, VA. I know nothing about them except what they post on their website, but if they’re really “for real”, this is a church in which I would be involved…if only I lived in Vienna, VA!
They do “service worship” on the last weekend of each month–instead of a Sunday “worship service”, they go out into their community and serve…cleaning vacant lots, home repairs, etc. I find that incredibly encouraging.
Hey SocietyVs,
Are you going to answer me on “Jesus is the only way,” question?
It will go a long way in helping to understand your philosophy on church programing in reqards to how the church’s social programs are to be set up, in your estimation.
fishon
Thanks Dena G for the link – I will also check that one out – looks very interesting.
“Heck, the salvation program trumps all the other programs, SocietyVs is wanting.” (Fishon)
I agree – I am like Deanna in that sense that the teachings took me from a broken point in life to one of wholeness (or at least a very nice life). This started for me with a committment to God – what some would call a ’salvation prayer’…what I would deem an actual committment to God.
As for salvation, it’s as only as good as what it means. I took salvation to be more than just a decision – but a series of decisions (a lifestyle). For me, conversion is not a one time thing – but we change as we learn the teachings and enact them. Our friendship with God is a committment on our behalf to uphold what God has taught us through others (ex: prophets or Jesus).
So in essence, helping the poor ala Matt 25 sheep and goats or the idea ‘blessed are the poor’ is part of that salvific lifestyle – an essential part I would add. I am y be on the path to salvation (or even saved) but that means I should live as if this is important to me (ie: salvation meaning healing (salve)). What is more important than helping another person? Is this not the message of our Messiah? The parable in Matthew 25 points us to an idea ‘Jesus is seen in the broken/poor’. Am I to look over that as not essential to my faith walk?
Salvation is important – it’s the decision at the beginning of the path – the committment to God to start a new life. That is very important – I am not going to doubt that. What is also important is where the ideas of salvation take someone…and if anything…it should be to the point of ‘unself-ishness’.
The fact ‘blessed are the poor’ is one of the beatitudes should speak volumnes in and of itself for part of our focus in this faith. I would also mention the a commandment that is at the heart of all this ‘treat other how you want to be treated’…is about the other and not us. I am concerned for this faith in the West – we might lose our compassion for the broken.
“Are you going to answer me on “Jesus is the only way,†question?” (fishon)
I guess what do you want to know? How I interpret the idea behind John 14:6? Am I too inclusive? Should I be exclusive abotu my faith? What is it I need to answer?
Regarding St. Paul City Church, MN – Pastors Steve & Jacquie Sullivan: I happen to have grown up in the same church Jacquie did. When I was in highschool, she was a mentor to a small discipleship group in which I participated.
I don’t know Steve as well, but I have heard both of them speak on a few occasions and can vouch for the fact that they TRULY have hearts that beat in a God-like rhythm. They sincerely care about hurting, broken people who are being restored (meaning they care about every one.
Deanna, you chose a very apt example of a church making a difference–one soul at a time.
SocietyVs,
Never mind. Enough of the waltz.
fishon
fishon,
DID YOU ASK SocietyVs a “Jesus is the only way question?” I didn’t see one. I think SocietyVs is sincerely confused; so am I.
ttm,
Thank you for asking. I went back and I see that you are right, and the I have caused confusion.
I think what happened is in my HUGE reply to SocietyVs, with 9 examples with comments of churches with the kinds of ministries he was searching for, that did NOT go through, I asked the “Jesus is the only way” question.
I did mess up. Sorry for the confusion——SocietyVs, I aplogize.
fishon
fishon,
I guess it happens to all of us.
Thanks for clearing up the confusion.