One of my more faithful commentators made this comment on my post last week called Designer Theology:
nakedpastor, do you find that you have to have the same arguments over and over again with yourself? Or are there things you take as a given? It seems to be you could realign your foundation over and over again and never really get as far as installing windows…
I realize I seem to be repeating myself. But it’s only because what is true is very simple and only so much can be said in a variety of ways. We live in a world swimming with principles, secrets, methods, truths, strategies, and more. It is a veritable ocean of ideas. I, in a sense, reject all this. I thoroughly refuse to believe that anyone can come up with a better idea or method or strategy to revolutionize, change or renew the church. I reject it all. Simple as that. So, all the ideas, methods or revolutions… I question at a most fundamental level. Axe to the roots! Shake the foundations!
Again, I’ll compare our community to my family. I don’t want anyone coming along with how to make my family better. I don’t want strategies to use on my family to improve things. I don’t want steps to increase the quality of our relationships. We are a family, so in a very real sense I’m not trying to build it. It is built. It is there. Love it. I am a part of a community. It is already a church. It is there. Love it. That’s all there is. I’m not trying to build it. Now… as soon as I say that I know that people will quote me scriptures about building the church. But those passages aren’t talking about church growth, strategies to improve it, programs to support, promote or advertise it, or visions to expand it. I think it is talking about truth. I think it is talking about, in biblical terms, the gospel. I think a person and a community grows through the acknowledgement, acquisition, appropriation and application of truth. Numbers aren’t the concern primarily.
So, yes, on the one hand I keep repeating myself. On the other hand, what else can I say in a world exploding with a new idea and strategy for me to consider and adopt every day of the week? I realize too that some say that my anti-strategy is actually a strategy. Call it what you will, but I don’t think so because there is no movement in it. It is a place of rest I have great difficulty describing. But I will keep doing so, no matter how many words it takes or how often it is misunderstood. Why? Because I believe it is a place of rest and peace that all people have a right to, including people in religious communities.
Contributions to nakedpastor are greatly appreciated.
David Hayward is a pastor artistically stripping to the essential.
This is interesting to me. For the last year I vacillate between a view of Christianity that I think rings true to me but would get me kicked out of almost every church I know, and thinking the entire thing is complete bullshit and a waste of time.
I used to be in a band that toured the world and played with almost every major Christian band out there. That and my heavy experience with church leadership and churches themselves has made me want to never associate with people who call themselves christians again. It literally makes my skin crawl at times.
And yet, I keep coming back to an undeniable truth that there is something out there bigger and beyond me, and the Christian story resonates as the most true version.
Can’t figure it out.
when you do let me know
Interesting that the other day a good friend of mine said that he didn’t believe in ‘building’ a church, he believed in kingdom ‘happenings’. He described dancing in the street outside his cafe with an African asylum seeker and seeing others join in. He said this was a kingdom happening. I guess it fits in with thinking about the church more like a family – you don’t want to organise it, you want to enjoy it!
Daniel – if its any consolation, I’ve been exactly where you are now and I’m out the other side – no more vacillating – a lot more sure of where I stand.
Yeah, just like a biological family.
Duh.
Sas x
I like this quote from your post David, “Again, I’ll compare our community to my family. I don’t want anyone coming along with how to make my family better. I don’t want strategies to use on my family to improve things. I don’t want steps to increase the quality of our relationships. We are a family, so in a very real sense I’m not trying to build it. It is built. It is there. Love it. I am a part of a community. It is already a church. It is there. Love it. That’s all there is. I’m not trying to build it.” Excellent!
We’re like the Simpsons, dysfunctional yet sticking with each other! Personally, I celebrate that, and I am relaxed about it.
If your friends annoy you sufficiently you probably trade them in for other friends. If your family annoys you they are still your family, and, as an act of the will, you love and tolerate them anyway. And naturally of course you gravitate towards the ones you get on with best to hang out with. That’s ok.
From where I sit, the “truth” that you describe, David, is not the Church/church. It’s not even the Bible as it is sliced and diced by the Church/church. It is a Holy Ghost (the “real” Holy Ghost, not some counterfeit worked up by an over-enthusiastic crowd or an imitation brough forth by a preacher with an ego) oasis/refuge/refreshing given unto both the Church/church and the individual, but a gift we have abused and refused so much along the way that people are either not quite sure how to wade into those waters anymore or are fearful of what they don’t understand.
I speak such thing not out of some self-righteous conquering of it all, myself, but out of a realization that we, as the Body of Christ, presently walk in such void and I don’t really know that location is an answer as much as is that which you speak. Realizing we are yet missing something, that we have not yet arrived, is a first step in returning to the foot of the Cross…..
“This is interesting to me. For the last year I vacillate between a view of Christianity that I think rings true to me but would get me kicked out of almost every church I know, and thinking the entire thing is complete bullshit and a waste of time” (Daniel)
I am so with you on this one – I could very well be paddling in the same boat as you. I also have a good version of this faith that I think makes sense – but would most likely never allow me to be in ministry in a single church – and I struggle with the uselessness of church so much so I am not sure I want a single thing to do with it. Things do not match up to what I see as the intent of the faith – and what the faith actually is.
It leaves me in a pretty strange situation – not sure if I actually like church and the church’s views about the bible/gospel. It leaves me outside looking in a lot of the times – and it is easier to just walk away from the institution altogether than to contend with. But there is always that nagging idea about ‘hope’ – what this can all mean someday – and that day being today or tomorrow. Plus the teachings ring so true to me – that I wouldn’t believe them as truth had I not actually tested their viability out.
It’s an interesting place to be – it has sent me to the new wilderness (blogging) – and away from the palaces of churchianity (although I still visit and like the people). I just know that I have no role in the church and I have a time seeing one.
societyvs:
“not sure if I actually like church and the church’s views about the bible/gospel”
that’s most of it for me right there…
My contact with most churches and christians I meet makes me feel slightly nauseous. And if not that, at bare minimum it’s a slighter version….
You know that feeling you get when you’re in a group of people and someone says, “let’s play a game!!”? That simultaneous mixture of dread with a solid dose of “oh jeez, give me a freaking break.”? That’s how I feel about church encounters that don’t outright disgust me. Still a tinge of “this is ridiculous, but oh well”.
I feel like I’m in that in between ground that GK Chesterton talked about in the beginning “Everlasting Man”. so close to home that it disgusts me and and I can’t see it for what it is.. the tomb of a giant.
Daniel,
I can’t say as I know exactly how you feel, but a guy at my church has a similar story.
He is also a musician that toure the country(I don’t think the world) playing “Christian Rock’.
He told me that he went from being ‘in it’ to not being able to stand it. The phoney piety, the oozing religiosity, the constant game of hiding the real self.
He stumbled into our little congregaation of misfits about 7 years ago and has never left. He drives about an hour and 15 minutes one way to get to church.
What he found was what I found. Real people, most of whom we wouldn’t choose to be with (outside of worship) for more than 10 minutes. A pastor that uses the law, not to prod us on to bigger and better, but to kill us off. And then the gospel (the forgiveness of our sins) and the sacraments. No pious projects, no phonie goody-goodies. He even flips me the bird every now and then in the middle of a worship service (not so’s anyone can see) as a juvenile form of affection.
What we have found there, is freedom in Christ. The freedom to be who we are, warts and all. We need to be there because we need to be forgiven and receive what the world could never buy.
That’s it. I hope someday you might find yourself a similar place, with people that are just…themselves.
Hi Dave, I’ve been reading your blog and enjoying your art work for a while now. Found your link through Jeremy Meyers at Till He Comes. I feel a lot of what you’re saying here I think, because I feel like I’m repeating myself a lot too sometimes. After thinking all this over, here’s a few of my own thoughts.
For a really long time I got upset with myself when I had doubts, when I dared to inwardly question the things that I was told were ultimate truths. What kind of relationship can I have with God though if I never ask Him questions about Himself, about how He works, about how He sees me?
I believe the Bible gives us ultimate truths regarding who God is, but one of the most important of those is God’s desire to have a relationship with His children. And how can one have a true relationship with Him without it being PERSONAL? How can one have a personal relationship with Him without asking Him questions and expressing to Him our doubts and questions? How can it be personal if it simply mimics the system or fad someone else has come up with? (It might work for them, but that doesn’t mean it’s something that’s guaranteed to work for everyone – or even anyone – else.)
It always frustrates me when people get “reprimanded” for simply RESTING in what they believe the Lord is calling them to do – or not to do – regardless of what other people think. This complete dependence and rest often times requires going over and over in our minds and hearts things that we don’t understand. But God is there, and is He not powerful enough to reveal all things to us, in HIS time? There will be times, I believe, in any believers life where God will simply call them to rest in Him, get to know Him, spend time expressing their frustrations and confusions and doubts but all the time focusing on Him, so that He can bring them to a place of complete peace through His provision and power. He knows all our doubts, but accepts us unconditionally anyway – we can never surprise Him or do anything to make Him love us any less. He knows exactly what it is that we need, when we need it, and how it will fulfill us in Him. He has a plan for each of His children; personal relationship with Him is a journey, and often times that journey requires of us to simply let OTHERS go on THEIR OWN journey with Him however it is that He has called them.
Hello to everyone
They had a meeting for Functional Families and only 2 showed up, and they were both in Denial.
Here’s a thought…did you ever think that everything you are doing today that you think you need forgiveness for was already forgiven over 2000 years ago? When Jesus died, He took all of our sins and condemned them, once for all~for the whole world. That’s the GOOD NEWS! You have NO DEBT! You are free…you were already condemned in the body of another. Now believe and recieve the one who loves you so much that He did this for you so you could be restored back to your first love (since Adam forfeited it all) and take your right place next to the Father and wear the Glory of God again, FREELY!
we are meant to be something bigger than what we see ourselves to be, and we cant analyze the old man/nor change him..he has to die (like a seed before it produces fruit)
and the law no longer applies to the dead man (who’s going to parole the grave yard?)
and the power of death and sin has no rule or reign in the heavenlies (where our High Priest is).
like someone has said before
“there is nothing new under the sun” as quoted from a once wise then turned cynical leader..
but we are no longer under the sun..we are set in the Heavenlies ..
“just as he is, so are we~ in this world” (cant remember the ref. would have to look it up)
and where is He? Sitting at the right hand of the Father waiting for the enemies to become His footstool….and where are you? going around the same mountain repeating yourself
so let’s talk about the heavenlies…church is boring! It’s all been done before and I dont believe there is anything else anyone can say more about the church that hasnt been said already.
…organized religious churches seem to give breath to the anti-christ in my opinion. It barely touches on the good news (if at all) and “gives you strategies to change your life, improve your finances and increase your giving” which has nothing to do with the good news of the gospel. It attempts to discredit the death and power of Christ because you still have to repent and you still have to change your ways and you still have to confess before a congregation or a priest…Jesus is the only High priest who already bore ALL of our sins..so it is finished..now LET THE KINGDOM COME! How come you dont talk about the things of the kingdom?
why are we even repeating ourselves? We should not be going around this mountain again, there is NEW terrain we have permission to usher in, what are we waiting for?
Steve:
It would be nice to find that. first step.. get to the place where I even want to look for it. too bad I’m nowhere near your “group of misfits”. Would like to have seen how it worked out.
daniel
Steve;
hang on one damn second. You’re in San Clemente? still a tad far for a regular visit, but if you’re ever in the Central Coast shoot me an email. We’ll grab a beer.
“I am a part of a community. It is already a church. It is there. Love it. That’s all there is. I’m not trying to build it.”
You claim to question everything. Do you question the above? Or do you take it as a given, as a starting point?
what? that it is a church? perhaps i should’ve said “a community”.