I know the feeling. I feel like that almost every day.
So I return to my baptism and remember the promise that He made TO ME. And once again, in that promise, I am raised to new life…belief takes hold of me again.
Until the next day, when once again, in one way or another, I get the stuffin’ kicked out of me. Unbelief sets in..again. I then return, once again to my baptism, and remember His promises.
Repentance and forgiveness. Over and over, and over again. Until that last day when I’m lowered into the grave, and He will raise me for the last time.
I am faithless, but He is faithful. I think this is sort of what Paul talks about when he refers to the fact that we are being saved (1st Corinthians). It’s not a one time event, this dying and rising…it is a process.
George MacDonald says something somewhere about “the God of former vision”. By which he meant (I think) that whatever experience I had in the past, which meant something of God to me, and made me grateful, should not be forgotten or belittled or despised – it was real
When nothing “real” is happening now, and maybe for some long time, I should not despair
In fact – I hope this is right – to not despair and to go on is more to do with faith than the more obvious stuff
Ya know, I am not the happiest person I know. Matter of fact, I am probably one of the least happy persons I am acquainted with, but I am not miserable. I tend to carry regrets with me for a very long time. I did when I was a believer, I do now also. I attribute that to just being who I am. That is how I have developed over the past 50 years.
I have to wonder though, why some Christians are just not happy, always seem to be in a state of despair over…what…their lack of spirituality? Their feeling out of “communion” with God? (btw, I felt the very same way when I was a believer, wanting to walk in Christ, yet feeling like I always fell short)
What I find to be one of the most unattractive aspects of Christianity is that so many Christians seem to express their desire to get closer to God, to be confident that they have “died to self” and to know that they are “walking in newness of life, daily”, yet so many seem to never express any shortcomings in their attitude in dealing with their fellow humans. Believe me, this is not really directed at anyone here. I find that the majority of posters here seem to be, from what I have read, seem to be nice people, but I still never read of any regrets in your dealings with the people you know, but always regrets in your dealings with God. Always!
Allow me to be frank: If you have no (or few) problems with your daily human associations, but many with your “relationship” with your God, does that tell you anything? It tells me that you would be happier if you just forgot about God and concentrated on living with the people you care about, and who care about you.
As I said, I am not the happiest of people, but I am doing cartwheels compared my disposition when I was a believer.
Just my thoughts.
“Christianity — creating a wound where none existed, then selling the victim the treatment.”
Yes fishon, it’s enough to make you want to give up!
Bob, seems to me that np at least has expressed regrets about struggles within his community. But yes you’re right about the link between our view of God and other people. The main thing for me has been to give up on the holiness project and accept myself as I am – to celebrate my gifts and to weep over my weaknesses. But when I say “Lord have mercy” it is not as a fearful wretch but in confident expectation of his welcome. He equipped me with this ragbag of urges, feelings, etc – some of which I’m glad about, some I wish were not there. But they are there – it has to be that way, it’s how the world is set up to run. For me, it’s about seeing that somehow it’s radically ok, necessary in fact, to fall short – and to not allow this reality to rob me of my hope and love; and to get on with using the gifts I’ve got. Bob, you obviously speak the Christian lingo fluently! – so you know what grace means…
Bob, maybe you see more about the God relationship here because the topics are usually in that vein. On another blog, you might see the same people discuss other types of relationships as well. Anyone being honest with themselves will always see much room for improvement in all of our relationships.
Personally, I would feel a lot more despair without God. From your post, it sounds like you were in a community of accusers. I think God accepts us (when we are sincere) so much more than we could ever accept ourselves.
I am one of those with a guilty personality. If I overbake a batch of cookies, I can get guilty. (I’m pretty bad about it!) But I know I am putting that on myself and God is not putting that on me. I believe God wants us to make the sincere effort, but like a loving parent, he doesn’t expect more than we can offer and he loves us through all of our adolescence:)
Bob,
“Regrets, “I’ve had a few….” Sound likes an old song! I know it well.
You write: I have to wonder though, why some Christians are just not happy, always seem to be in a state of despair over…what…their lack of spirituality?
—–I am continually amazed by some in this blog and others that seem to be in a CONSTANT state of despair, as a Christian. I can only think of 3 reasons for that. I suppose there could be more.
#1. It is their personality.
#2. Life is terrible for them
#3. They have bad things happen to them and are surprised and then despair
#1. That personality excuse goes only so far. A study on the words “Joy an Rejoice” would go a long way in overcoming dispair–if the lessons learned are applied to their life.
#2. I will make a judgement here. 90% of those who live a life of dispair on this blog site and others, have a good life. They want to tell me about a tough life, try being a Christian in the Sudan, Congo, Iraq.
#3. This one hits most North American Christians who live a life of dispair.–They have something bad happen to them or those they love and they are surprised by it. They become sick and wonder why? What happened? I am a Christian; why would this happen to me?
My wife and I just had a very close friend murdered by her youth pastor son. He also sliced his father’s neck and tried to burn him up. Were we shocked? Yes. Were we surprised that a Christian friend could be murdered? No. Why not shocked? Thousands of Christians are murdered every year. Why would we be shocked that it could be someone we loved? That would be naive.
I could go on and on. But you get the picture. I understand dispair for a little while–a short time. But to hang on to it for eons, I don’t understand.
fishon
Chris,
you write: Yes fishon, it’s enough to make you want to give up!
——–Not me Chris. It may make you want to give up,, but not even close for me.
fishon
I think what I wanted to express was just that, if this Christian thing takes so much (as it seems) emotional effort (as my Christianity did) why not really examine with (I hate to even suggest this) an open mind, and ask yourself what the heck you are doing it for?
Honestly, in my view, (mainly because I can now see Christianity from the outside) suggesting, as Chris brings up, that “grace” plays a role or should play a role in the Christian life, well that makes no sense to me, because I see no need for this grace, especially if it is something that the Christians constantly need reapplied, over and over again. Seems to me, if God really wanted to offer this thing called grace, he would not do it in the fashion of a drug dealer, so that you would run out in a few hours and desperately come back for more. I get it people, but I just don’t get it.
So, I think what Christians need to understand is this, while honesty is a wonderful concept, if you are going to let on that your Christian life is really quite a struggle, then you need to understand that, admitting to that can be quite the anti-evangelistic tool. If I was quite naive and miserable, I might still be persuaded by the gospel, even after reading some blogs and witnessing the daily struggle Christians have just being a Christian. But after experiencing that struggle within myself, and seeing that so very many Christians still, after years of faith, suffer through the same inner struggle I did, I have to stand back and ask them…what do you have that I could possibly want or need? Can I ask that again: What do you, suffering Christian, have, that I could possibly want or need?
When I read David’s blog, and believe me, I love David. I know him only from his blog, and a few emails we have exchanged over the past year or so, but when I read this blog, and the comments of others here, I have to conclude that this would not be a very good advertisement for the faith. Please understand that I am not being critical of the honesty shared here. I actually find it somewhat refreshing. What I am perplexed by is the (maybe not perplexed, but discouraged) the way some Christians cling to a faith that is, in so many instances, the very seed of their misery. Please believe me when I say I understand the misery. When I was a believer, I read constantly, David Brainard, Reese Howells, Jessie Penn Lewis, Andrew Murray, Watchman Nee, Jonathan Edwards…etc. I was a student of the “deeper life”. I wanted to be a, as I have said before, a lump of clay in the hands of Master Jesus. But all my desiring left me completely miserable. I eventually concluded that, either Jesus had more important things to do than draw me closer to him, or he just was not there. I concluded the latter. And I have to tell you, honestly, the weight that left me at that moment was like a thousand pounds. That was eight years ago, after 25 years of the faith struggle.
As far as struggle in the Christian life, I think one of the things that attracts me to the Bible is that it does NOT hide the fact that the Christian life WILL BE full of struggles. The Word of God does NOT promise that to become a Christ follower one will be free of struggles–there are some phonys out in the Christian world that promise that, but that is not the Word of God. In fact, the main character of the Bible, Jesus, shows a life of struggle, pain and heartache. And that attacts me. It shows me a God who understands this human effort we live out. The apostle Paul is straight forward about the trails of the Christian walk, but in that struggle he can still sing in the middle of a Roman prison. The fact is, the Bible does NOT promise salvation from a daily walk calamities and pain. What it promises is eternal life with God when the walk is complete.
I don’t mean this as it will come out. We both have struggles, trials, heartache,and pain as we both journey this life on this small sphere, reguardless of embracing religion or not. I as a Christian have heaven to look forward too, at the end of the journey, with my struggles and all. I am going to assume you have no religious bent at this time from what you write, so I ask you this: We both struggle, I have the assurance of heaven; what hope for the end of your journey do you have?
Wow. You say something in a way I have thought, but could not put on paper: “What I am perplexed by is the (maybe not perplexed, but discouraged) the way some Christians cling to a faith that is, in so many instances, the very seed of their misery.”
—I think, though it wouldn’t apply to all, so many that live a life of ‘dispair’ as a Christian have become afraid to take a stand on much of the Bible says. They are so afraid of being branded an intolerant, a ‘modern-day’ bigot, and what some would characterize, we who take firm stands on most issues, ‘pharisees.’ I find that many of those who take issue with me on this blog, goes to my firmness in what I believe, and not so much what I believe. Though many would disagree with some of my positions. But that is not their main issue with me.
As I said in an earlier post, I believe that many Christians who live in ‘dispair’ do so because they are genuinely shocked because bad things happen in their life, so there is struggle that leads to a life of dispair. Where they came up with the idea that struggle was not a part of the Christian package, I know not where. So there is no biblical joy or peace in the midst of struggles.
The only difference I see between them and you is, they don’t give up–you did. Let me explain. You said: “…if this Christian thing takes so much (as it seems) emotional effort (as my Christianity did) why not really examine with (I hate to even suggest this) an open mind, and ask yourself what the heck you are doing it for?
—–Bob, how did you miss, when you were reading and studing the Bible that it would NOT be an “emotional effort?” Did you not read, “Work out your salvation with fear and trembling?” Did you not read that if Christ was hated by men, we would too? Did you not read of the terrible struggle between Satan and Jesus in the desert? Or the gut wrenching passion that went on in the garden? How could you miss the absolute emotional agony and distress of Peter after his denial? Did you miss the struggling Timothy as Paul tried to lift him up from emotional efforts?
For me, at least, Paul’s struggle with his thorn in the flesh, and Jesus’ answer to him makes it easy for me: “My grace is sufficent for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” And there in comes my joy and peace. I stuggle and hurt as anyone on this blog, but dispair. NO. For as Paul goes on to say, “For when I am weak, then I am strong.”
Bob, thanks for what you wrote. It has given me a chance to reevaluate where my strenght, joy and peace come from.
jerry [fishon]
why can’t people simply express where they are without someone always having to correct them? this is what annoys me most about religion. no one is allowed to search and find for themselves. it all has to be delegated by some authority or insider. the fact is we all equally have the capacity for evil as well as good. we all have the capacity for despair and joy. we all have the capacity to doubt and reject as believe and accept. and this doesn’t even bring in to the equation the will of the Lord to afflict us or bless us if he so chooses. without humility we just perpetuate division.
David, my friend;
why can’t people simply express where they are without someone always having to correct them?
———-Are you saying that you don’t throw out provocative stuff AND NOT EXPECTING REACTIONS? You put up your art work with messages straight forward and sometimes subtle. I thought it was part of the purpose of art to exact reaction? Am I wrong?
You can’t tell me, well I suppose you could, but I wouldn’t believe you that the S— cartoon was not going to bring about some reactions of difference and offence?
And to be straight forward–some things NEED correcting.
You talk about community and tolerance — where is the community of tolerance for we who have not grown up enough yet to get over being the ‘correction’ police?
You speak of community and all it diverse individuals. That, my friend, would include some of us know-it-all’s, that is unless we must be excluded from community–then it becomes a exclusive country – club again.
By the way, I don’t believe the search in regards to religion is a “…find for themselves…search. I believe the story of the eunuch and Philip proves that. “Two are better than one, if one falls down….”
Brother, I do wish you a wonderful, joyious Easter worship.
fishon
I can see all too clearly why some abandon the faith and why there would be a sense of a burden being lifted. Free at last from the struggle to be something I’m not, from some restrictions (not that I would suddenly become a wild profligate – I’m not that kind of guy!), and so on. I choose not to do that for myself but do not blame those for whom the road is different
Grace, for me, is not some of kind of medicine that I take repeatedly. It’s simply an understanding of who I am (“we all equally have the capacity for evil as well as good. we all have the capacity for despair and joy. we all have the capacity to doubt and reject as believe and accept.”) and accepting myself because God does. It’s a stance, not a method; it requires no effort on my part. In fact, it’s when I slip back into struggling that I mess up. When I live in acceptance, I notice I start to become the sort of man I always wanted to be in the first place! So that seems to me to be a good thing
i always try to remember to challenge the IDEA and not the PERSON or the person’s character. i think it is fair and necessary to challenge or debate the many ideas out there, but always to remember that i may not be right, but wrong.
Good thoughts, all.
Let me address just a few:
fishon – “I have the assurance of heaven; what hope for the end of your journey do you have?”
Good question. While we could argue about “assurance” and “hope” (I think you have hope, not assurance where heaven is concerned) allow me to state that, and I will do this as gently as I possibly can…well, let me just say that, based on my study of the bible, the entire bible, Old and New Testaments, I have absolutely no desire to go to heaven (if you-know-who will be in charge). I’ll leave it at that. But I really believe the only, or maybe a simpler description of our differences concerning an afterlife, is this: You believe there is one and I don’t. That does not mean that I don’t hope there is one. I would love for there to be an afterlife, some sort of post existence. I think it would be wonderful if, just after closing my eyes for the last time, I awoke in some wonderful place with all (or perhaps some) of my friends and family. So, while I don’t believe there is an afterlife, I can not say that there is not one. But for me, I find the biblical afterlife to be very unappealing, from a moral standpoint.
As for this:
fishon – “Bob, how did you miss, when you were reading and studying the Bible that it would NOT be an “emotional effort?â€
I didn’t miss it. For 25 years I sought relief. I prayed, had others pray for me, read, prayed and prayed. No answer. No relief. I felt I was completely on my own. If Jesus answers prayers, why did he not offer any answer for mine? Not one. Please don’t say that he did. If his answer was unheard by me, the one asking for an answer, then the answer was completely useless.
But as I have said, I am fine now. And I just feel for folks, good folks like David who struggle with this inner turmoil. I really wish I could help. All I can do, I guess, is offer up my experiences and my struggles, I guess.
You know, I think the times that I feel the furthest from God is when I am doing too much “digging” for the answers and all I hear are conflicting doctrine and messages from all over the board. I have tried recently to cut way back on the “manmade” influences and let God speak for himself. He seems to do a much better job of it!
I think it’s also helpful, when we find ourselves maybe going inward too much, to reach out. Nothing makes me feel better, more loving and more receiving of God’s love than when I get out there and do things for others. Even just a kind word or a greeting card to someone who’s hurting can make such a difference in their lives and it makes me feel full of God’s love at the same time.
Sometimes I think we get so wrapped up in ourselves that we can see the forest for the trees, don’t we?
We disagree on much, but we could be good next-door neighbors.
I agree with this: “And I just feel for folks, good folks like David who struggle with this inner turmoil. I really wish I could help. All I can do, I guess, is offer up my experiences and my struggles, I guess.”
I guess that is why I sound so combative at times. Frustration that I don’t have the words that can help.
fishon
thebutler,
In the meantime, dearest blogfriend, fishoff!
——As a member of this tolerant blog community, I believe I will continue to “fish.”
Butler, you give me wayyyyy too much credit. I don’t believe for a second that any thing I say STOPS people from “deal[ing] with their problems their way.” But you flatter me with thinking I may just have that much influence.
Oops, I just reread what you wrote. I believe I sense some sarcasm on your part. As a member of this tolerant blog community, I accept your your sarcasm.
I do find it a bit ironic that you would tell me to “Let people deal with their problems their way,” and yet you tell me how to deal with my problem of opinionation. That somehow just doesnt’ seem to be consistent, my blog pal?
You MAKE IT a great tomorrow. Dang, I did it again, telling somebody what to do.
fishon
Bob, I love what you had to say. A few years ago I left a church that kept telling me to ask for “more”. We sang songs that said, “there must be more” and I strove to find it. I have struggled with depression my whole life and during that time I always felt I wasn’t enough. I became a Christian at the age of nine and always felt a failure at it. When I started attending that community I thought I was being promised that I would finally feel like I was enough because I would attain the relationship with Christ I had never been able to grasp. I cried and screamed, roared like a lion and laughed hysterically but I never found the “more”.
I finally left about four years ago and I have never felt better. My depression has lifted and I look forward to each day in a way I never did in the past. What I like about np’s community is they don’t insist there is “more” that I need than who I am right now. And I now realize that Jesus doesn’t either. I know He walks beside me everyday but somedays I forget to talk to Him and yet He doesn’t leave me. Some days I’m really mad at Him and He just takes it. And some days I pour out my heart to Him and He just listens. For some reason that’s all I need from Him right now I think He is happy to give just that. Maybe this doesn’t sound like the “Jesus” we read about in the Bible who seems to require so much from us but He is the Jesus I need right now and I know He loves me. I don’t need Him to prove it to me anymore and I don’t need to prove anything to Him.
I think what you express is scary to those of us who hang on because the question is always there, “Does He really exist?” I remember seeing the writer June Collingwood (not sure of spelling) in an interview. She recalled a moment in time when she ran into a church in a time of despair and crisis and she called out to God and she waited. He didn’t answer. She left the church not believing anymore. I saw an interview just before her death and she had not changed her view. She believed her existance would end when she died and there was no God. I know her cry was genuine and she really needed God. Why didn’t He anwer her or did she miss the answer and if she did why did God let her miss it? Scary questions for me because I’ve cried out like that and had no response. So why do I hang on? I think because “Where would I go?” I love God, “though He would slay me”.
Sorry for the run on. I do know one thing my relationship with God has nothing to do with any church community. It’ just Him and me.
jeannie,
I know that I am the odd man out on this blog site, but so be it. I would offer this scripture to you, though last time I told about giving a scripture to someone–well, let’s just say some folks don’t like scripture being given out.
Anyway, here is scripture to consider: Acts 17:11 from the NIV: “Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.”
Keep on ‘going deeper.’ The Bereans did and so can you. Here is another:
Romans 15:4, “For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the scriptures we might have hope.”
Of well, what’s one more!!! 2 Tim. 3:16, “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so the the man of God may be thouroughly equipped for every good work.”
Jeannie, go deeper. Do not be afraid. The only way you are going to get some of the great WOW moments is to go deeper.
Listen, there will be those who will disagree, but I encourage you to go by the scriptures. Let them speak for themselves. And that includes anything I would tell you. Just go with what the scriptures say–not what I say or anyone else.
fishon
We are in agreement.
“…but I encourage you to go by the scriptures. Let them speak for themselves. And that includes anything I would tell you. Just go with what the scriptures say–not what I say or anyone else.”
fishon
I have no problem with Scripture. I love it as an awesome message from my beautiful Creator. My problem is with the many people who over the years have misused the Word. Many of these men and woman were sincerely trying to enlighten and I don’t doubt your sincerity. You feel you need to save those who may be misled by what they read here. But I believe God is so much bigger than something I may say that is not quite right as I walk out my own personal spiritual journey.
I still have many scriptures that I can’t read because of the way they have been used in the past. The words of men still ring when I read them. Words that condemned, controlled and confused. I look forward to the time when I can read them as God’s words to me.
I have heard the instructions to “go deeper”, and “remember you have to seek the Lord your God will ALL your heart!’ so many times and each time I tried a little harder. But the “deeper” didn’t happen (at least I don’t think it did.). Tell me, what does deeper look like, feel like? How will I know when I attain it? And how do you know that what I’m doing won’t help me know God on a deeper level. I trust God to bring me back if I get to far out there.
To close here are a few scriptures that I believe support where I am right now.
“Be still and know that I am God.” “Come all you who are heavy laden and I will give you rest.” “In returning and rest you shall be saved, in quietness and trust shall be your strength.”
If I am wrong I trust that “God’s kindness is meant to lead (me) to repentance” and “nothing can separate (me) from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus”.
I sometimes hesitate to share it because I’m not sure if I have the knowledge or words to make my point but I guess I can stand with Paul when he said, “I decided to know nothing among you, except Jesus Christ and him crucified.
Shelly,
I too have problems with people who misuse scripture. Of course, there isn’t a one of us who have quoted scripture that would not have someone disagree with us in our interpretations. Some have some good points to discuss, while others just argue with anything scripture.
And I agree with you: “God is so much bigger than something I may say….” That is why I try and always go back to scripture. That is why I gave ’scripture’ to Jeannie to examine. She doesn’t have to rely on any of my words. She can read it right from here very own Bible, then the Holy Spirit will deal with the meaning.
I truely am sorry that the you can not read some of God’s word because of how some men have skewed them. I have no doubt that there would be those, in fact I know there are those on this blog, who say I skew them. But that’s ok. In the end of the matter, each one of us must ‘work out’ our salvation just between we and God, and no other is responcible for it.
I am really interested in this statement of yours:::::”I have heard the instructions to “go deeperâ€, and “remember you have to seek the Lord your God will ALL your heart!’ so many times and each time I tried a little harder. But the “deeper†didn’t happen (at least I don’t think it did.). Tell me, what does deeper look like, feel like? How will I know when I attain it? And how do you know that what I’m doing won’t help me know God on a deeper level. I trust God to bring me back if I get to far out there.”
——-I don’t know if you are seriously asking, or trying to make a point to me? But I will answer as if you are asking?———-What is your interpretation of “deeper” with the Lord? Is it knowledge, emotion, or a combination? Is it warm, fuzzy that some folks say we will have if we are deep into God, or is it freedom from occasional doubt? What might this “deeper” look to you?
I can NOT tell you what “deeper” looks like or feels like. I have my/God’s congregation repeat these words with me every Sunday. “”Faith is having the absolute trust in the integrity of God; He will do and can do everything He says He will do.”" ——–For me, I absolutely believe that. I hang on to that, live it, and sometimes cry in it. For me, that is deeper——-for you——-I don’t have the pat answer.
And Shelly, I make no judgement as to whether what you are doing is helping you God deeper with God or not. I don’t think I ever said anything to you that inimated you weren’t going deep with God.
And as far as ‘hesitat[ing] to share because of a lack of knowledge or words, first, you do just fine; second, welcome to the club of where many of us don’t alway get our point[s] across.
I was responding to your words: “The only way you are going to have those WOW moments is to go deeper.”
You also seemed to assume that because Jeannie was going to relax and enjoy where she is means she is going to stop reading or searching out scripture.
I believe we should always enjoy where we are right now, who we are right now because I believe God does. He looks at me and sees the desires of my heart and is pleased. You know God looks at the heart but man looks at the outside. I know I am not perfect (sin free) but Jesus died to cover that and if I deny His sacrifice He wasted His time. My holiness is a process and I cannot demand more of myself than God would. I trust Him to convict my heart, and even correct me if need be. And if it comes from someone who loves me and someone I trust I will listen but even Jesus said He didn’t come to condemn so anyone who is correcting what they perceive to be a sin in my life should examine their motives.
My question of what deeper looks like is both sincere and frustrated. In the past, in my experience, the exhortation to go deeper has been connected to the suggestion that I was in some way lacking spiritually. There was often a suggestion that my character was being assessed in order to determine my maturity as a Christian and whether or not I was fit to serve in the body. Deeper has always meant I have to have more of something. More of a personal relationship with God? More spirituallity? What do these things even look like? Will I have more of the fruit of the Spirit?
I don’t think we should exhort someone to “go deeper” without qualifying what that means. Also, what are “WOW moments”? Do you assume that those of us who think/feel differently don’t have them or don’t have the great ones you do? This sounds angry and I don’t want you to tune out because of my frustration. But God has created us all to be such unique individuals and He deals with us all on an individual basis. He has so many ways to touch us and reach us and save us and draw us to Him, how can we quote scripture we have chosen and say that is the only way or the only truth. As you said yourself scriptures have different interpretations. A philosophy professor who said he didn’t believe in God once told me if you give 10 Christians one scripture they will come up with 10 different and even conflicting interpretations. I know most of the scripture you could quote to me (not bragging, just comes from my Baptist background) and yet if God is not speaking to me through scripture at this time or is speaking through different scriptures it will mean nothing to me. Scripture, when God is speaking to us through it, has a quality of purity about it. It’s like the vivid blue of the sky, the song of a bird, the smooth texture of an ocean washed rock. It’s incredible!
Fishon, it’s not up to you to save the world (I say this with sincerity not sarcasm). I don’t agree with everything Dave believes and he wouldn’t even want me too. He celebrates diversity in the body. I think he loves a good debate and yes, may even instigate one sometimes but I believe he is sincere in his desire to know and love Christ and to know and love the Body. He has helped me learn to accept and love people where they are (no matter how messy) (myself included) and let God do the work that He decides is necessary. It is true that sometimes we need to hear correction from each other but I think that correction is way to easy to do and really loving each other comes much harder.
You sounded sincere in your response to me and I thank you but when I read your entries you always seem to be teaching or preaching. Why don’t you share more on how you, personally, feel about about what’s being said. How does if affect you and why. I’m really interested.
Shelly,
Lots to answer, but I won’t even try to get to all of it. I will pick a couple of issues that I ‘assume’ are important because you asking or writing about them.
#1. “Deeper”
I believe the Apostle Paul defines “deeper” this way, though he didn’t use the word.
Philippians 2:3-5 –Vs. 5, You attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus. vs 3,4 Do nothing out of…,” well you can read the rest.
You touched on the ‘fruit of the Spirit.” When the fruit of the Spirit starts to manifest itself in our lives, we are going deeper.
“Rightly dividing the Word” is going deeper.
I think Proverbs 3:5-6 has much to say about going deeper.
Paul, I believe gives a very good illustration of deeper when he says, “…for I have LEARNED [caps mine] to be content whatever the circumstance….”
#2. WOW moments?
The deeper search is the only way that WOW moments will happen. And yes, I assume that those who do not go deeper will NOT have WOW moments with God. Of course, going deeper is always subjective to where the individual is in their journey with Christ. So a babe in Christ can have a WOW moment, and so too the PHd in his/her journey. When I think of WOW moments, I am not thinking about the 27 Eagles my wife and I saw one day, a month ago. That was a wow, but not a Spiritual WOW. That I can not define. Each one will know it when it happens.
#3. “Fishon, it’s not up to you to save the world.”
That is true. The world is far to big for me to cover. And I am sure you would agree, “I can’t save anyone.” But we who are saved are called to be His hands, feet, salt, light, and His ambassadors.
#4. “You sounded sincere in your response to me and I thank you but when I read your entries you always seem to be teaching or preaching.”
Probably true. I just use more words than David uses in his cartoons and drawings.
#5. “Why don’t you share more on how you, personally, feel about about what’s being said. How does if affect you and why.” I’m really interested.
Shelly, for the most part, just me sharing scriptures has drawn the ire of some. More than once I have been invited to “fishoff.”
Though I go further in what I say than many feel comfortable with in this blog room, I choice not to push much further because of respect for the person of David, NP. I have seen to many blogs become name calling contest, and I want to not become a part of that. To tell you the truth, if I were to share how I personally feel about what is being said, sometimes, I would be running up against the line of sin. That is why I go to scripture–I will let God’s word speak, where the Old Fishon would sin.
You asked me to get into more: How does if affect you and why.
2 Reasons. First, I don’t articulate very well in written form.
Second, I would be totally misunderstood [and have been] in this setting.
EXAMPLE:
AFFECT: It breaks my heart to see so many Christians in such distress and pain who are a part of this blog, including the head cheese, and remain there.
WHY: Though each one of us go through those trials, I believe that it is totally unnecessary for almost anyone to remain in the state of distress and pain as long as some on here have indicated. {{{Excluding a physical or mental reason}}}.
Just saying what I said above is going to put some on tilt.
Ok, Shelly, one more example.
The S— shirt.
AFFECT: It sickened me to see a Christian pastor put up such a thing.
WHY: Because I don’t think NP would NOT put it in a box and send it to Jesus as a present as some of his best use of the talent that God has given him.
Well, enough from me. Good to exchange thoughts with you.
fishon
In The Road Less Travelled, M Scott Peck explains how a lot of us flee from the pain of solving problems and end up either neurotic or with character disorders (i.e. the neurotic assumes too much responsability and the person with a character disorder not enough).
I’d like to add to that the idea that as a Christian we may be tempted to flee day to day problems by imagining that God will lift us out of it all, or prayer will make it go away. But that’s not what God wants for us. He wants us to live and learn, even if at the end of it we are lifted from life and taken to Heaven with Jesus.
thebutler,
I would agree, if I understand you right: “…as a Christian we may be tempted to flee day to day problems by imagining that God will lift us out of it all, or prayer will make it go away.”
Apostle Paul could no more flee or pray away a beating with the rod or whatever else befell him. There are trails, pain, suffering that Christian or non-christian all must go through. And in all of lifes hardships Paul tells us he ‘learned to be content,’ then he tells us how he came to that: “I can do all things through Christ who strenghens me.”
fishon
David Hayward is a pastor artistically stripping to the essential.
np,
I know the feeling. I feel like that almost every day.
So I return to my baptism and remember the promise that He made TO ME. And once again, in that promise, I am raised to new life…belief takes hold of me again.
Until the next day, when once again, in one way or another, I get the stuffin’ kicked out of me. Unbelief sets in..again. I then return, once again to my baptism, and remember His promises.
Repentance and forgiveness. Over and over, and over again. Until that last day when I’m lowered into the grave, and He will raise me for the last time.
I am faithless, but He is faithful. I think this is sort of what Paul talks about when he refers to the fact that we are being saved (1st Corinthians). It’s not a one time event, this dying and rising…it is a process.
Thank you, np!
– Steve
JESUS LOVES ME BUT I DON’T
George MacDonald says something somewhere about “the God of former vision”. By which he meant (I think) that whatever experience I had in the past, which meant something of God to me, and made me grateful, should not be forgotten or belittled or despised – it was real
When nothing “real” is happening now, and maybe for some long time, I should not despair
In fact – I hope this is right – to not despair and to go on is more to do with faith than the more obvious stuff
Chris,
Some folks like to live in ‘despair.’
fishon
Ya know, I am not the happiest person I know. Matter of fact, I am probably one of the least happy persons I am acquainted with, but I am not miserable. I tend to carry regrets with me for a very long time. I did when I was a believer, I do now also. I attribute that to just being who I am. That is how I have developed over the past 50 years.
I have to wonder though, why some Christians are just not happy, always seem to be in a state of despair over…what…their lack of spirituality? Their feeling out of “communion” with God? (btw, I felt the very same way when I was a believer, wanting to walk in Christ, yet feeling like I always fell short)
What I find to be one of the most unattractive aspects of Christianity is that so many Christians seem to express their desire to get closer to God, to be confident that they have “died to self” and to know that they are “walking in newness of life, daily”, yet so many seem to never express any shortcomings in their attitude in dealing with their fellow humans. Believe me, this is not really directed at anyone here. I find that the majority of posters here seem to be, from what I have read, seem to be nice people, but I still never read of any regrets in your dealings with the people you know, but always regrets in your dealings with God. Always!
Allow me to be frank: If you have no (or few) problems with your daily human associations, but many with your “relationship” with your God, does that tell you anything? It tells me that you would be happier if you just forgot about God and concentrated on living with the people you care about, and who care about you.
As I said, I am not the happiest of people, but I am doing cartwheels compared my disposition when I was a believer.
Just my thoughts.
“Christianity — creating a wound where none existed, then selling the victim the treatment.”
Yes fishon, it’s enough to make you want to give up!
Bob, seems to me that np at least has expressed regrets about struggles within his community. But yes you’re right about the link between our view of God and other people. The main thing for me has been to give up on the holiness project and accept myself as I am – to celebrate my gifts and to weep over my weaknesses. But when I say “Lord have mercy” it is not as a fearful wretch but in confident expectation of his welcome. He equipped me with this ragbag of urges, feelings, etc – some of which I’m glad about, some I wish were not there. But they are there – it has to be that way, it’s how the world is set up to run. For me, it’s about seeing that somehow it’s radically ok, necessary in fact, to fall short – and to not allow this reality to rob me of my hope and love; and to get on with using the gifts I’ve got. Bob, you obviously speak the Christian lingo fluently! – so you know what grace means…
Bob, maybe you see more about the God relationship here because the topics are usually in that vein. On another blog, you might see the same people discuss other types of relationships as well. Anyone being honest with themselves will always see much room for improvement in all of our relationships.
Personally, I would feel a lot more despair without God. From your post, it sounds like you were in a community of accusers. I think God accepts us (when we are sincere) so much more than we could ever accept ourselves.
I am one of those with a guilty personality. If I overbake a batch of cookies, I can get guilty. (I’m pretty bad about it!) But I know I am putting that on myself and God is not putting that on me. I believe God wants us to make the sincere effort, but like a loving parent, he doesn’t expect more than we can offer and he loves us through all of our adolescence:)
Bob,
“Regrets, “I’ve had a few….” Sound likes an old song! I know it well.
You write: I have to wonder though, why some Christians are just not happy, always seem to be in a state of despair over…what…their lack of spirituality?
—–I am continually amazed by some in this blog and others that seem to be in a CONSTANT state of despair, as a Christian. I can only think of 3 reasons for that. I suppose there could be more.
#1. It is their personality.
#2. Life is terrible for them
#3. They have bad things happen to them and are surprised and then despair
#1. That personality excuse goes only so far. A study on the words “Joy an Rejoice” would go a long way in overcoming dispair–if the lessons learned are applied to their life.
#2. I will make a judgement here. 90% of those who live a life of dispair on this blog site and others, have a good life. They want to tell me about a tough life, try being a Christian in the Sudan, Congo, Iraq.
#3. This one hits most North American Christians who live a life of dispair.–They have something bad happen to them or those they love and they are surprised by it. They become sick and wonder why? What happened? I am a Christian; why would this happen to me?
My wife and I just had a very close friend murdered by her youth pastor son. He also sliced his father’s neck and tried to burn him up. Were we shocked? Yes. Were we surprised that a Christian friend could be murdered? No. Why not shocked? Thousands of Christians are murdered every year. Why would we be shocked that it could be someone we loved? That would be naive.
I could go on and on. But you get the picture. I understand dispair for a little while–a short time. But to hang on to it for eons, I don’t understand.
fishon
Chris,
you write: Yes fishon, it’s enough to make you want to give up!
——–Not me Chris. It may make you want to give up,, but not even close for me.
fishon
Err… fishon… it was a joke…
I think what I wanted to express was just that, if this Christian thing takes so much (as it seems) emotional effort (as my Christianity did) why not really examine with (I hate to even suggest this) an open mind, and ask yourself what the heck you are doing it for?
Honestly, in my view, (mainly because I can now see Christianity from the outside) suggesting, as Chris brings up, that “grace” plays a role or should play a role in the Christian life, well that makes no sense to me, because I see no need for this grace, especially if it is something that the Christians constantly need reapplied, over and over again. Seems to me, if God really wanted to offer this thing called grace, he would not do it in the fashion of a drug dealer, so that you would run out in a few hours and desperately come back for more. I get it people, but I just don’t get it.
So, I think what Christians need to understand is this, while honesty is a wonderful concept, if you are going to let on that your Christian life is really quite a struggle, then you need to understand that, admitting to that can be quite the anti-evangelistic tool. If I was quite naive and miserable, I might still be persuaded by the gospel, even after reading some blogs and witnessing the daily struggle Christians have just being a Christian. But after experiencing that struggle within myself, and seeing that so very many Christians still, after years of faith, suffer through the same inner struggle I did, I have to stand back and ask them…what do you have that I could possibly want or need? Can I ask that again: What do you, suffering Christian, have, that I could possibly want or need?
When I read David’s blog, and believe me, I love David. I know him only from his blog, and a few emails we have exchanged over the past year or so, but when I read this blog, and the comments of others here, I have to conclude that this would not be a very good advertisement for the faith. Please understand that I am not being critical of the honesty shared here. I actually find it somewhat refreshing. What I am perplexed by is the (maybe not perplexed, but discouraged) the way some Christians cling to a faith that is, in so many instances, the very seed of their misery. Please believe me when I say I understand the misery. When I was a believer, I read constantly, David Brainard, Reese Howells, Jessie Penn Lewis, Andrew Murray, Watchman Nee, Jonathan Edwards…etc. I was a student of the “deeper life”. I wanted to be a, as I have said before, a lump of clay in the hands of Master Jesus. But all my desiring left me completely miserable. I eventually concluded that, either Jesus had more important things to do than draw me closer to him, or he just was not there. I concluded the latter. And I have to tell you, honestly, the weight that left me at that moment was like a thousand pounds. That was eight years ago, after 25 years of the faith struggle.
Just my thoughts.
Bob,
Great piece. Many interesting thoughts.
As far as struggle in the Christian life, I think one of the things that attracts me to the Bible is that it does NOT hide the fact that the Christian life WILL BE full of struggles. The Word of God does NOT promise that to become a Christ follower one will be free of struggles–there are some phonys out in the Christian world that promise that, but that is not the Word of God. In fact, the main character of the Bible, Jesus, shows a life of struggle, pain and heartache. And that attacts me. It shows me a God who understands this human effort we live out. The apostle Paul is straight forward about the trails of the Christian walk, but in that struggle he can still sing in the middle of a Roman prison. The fact is, the Bible does NOT promise salvation from a daily walk calamities and pain. What it promises is eternal life with God when the walk is complete.
I don’t mean this as it will come out. We both have struggles, trials, heartache,and pain as we both journey this life on this small sphere, reguardless of embracing religion or not. I as a Christian have heaven to look forward too, at the end of the journey, with my struggles and all. I am going to assume you have no religious bent at this time from what you write, so I ask you this: We both struggle, I have the assurance of heaven; what hope for the end of your journey do you have?
Wow. You say something in a way I have thought, but could not put on paper: “What I am perplexed by is the (maybe not perplexed, but discouraged) the way some Christians cling to a faith that is, in so many instances, the very seed of their misery.”
—I think, though it wouldn’t apply to all, so many that live a life of ‘dispair’ as a Christian have become afraid to take a stand on much of the Bible says. They are so afraid of being branded an intolerant, a ‘modern-day’ bigot, and what some would characterize, we who take firm stands on most issues, ‘pharisees.’ I find that many of those who take issue with me on this blog, goes to my firmness in what I believe, and not so much what I believe. Though many would disagree with some of my positions. But that is not their main issue with me.
As I said in an earlier post, I believe that many Christians who live in ‘dispair’ do so because they are genuinely shocked because bad things happen in their life, so there is struggle that leads to a life of dispair. Where they came up with the idea that struggle was not a part of the Christian package, I know not where. So there is no biblical joy or peace in the midst of struggles.
The only difference I see between them and you is, they don’t give up–you did. Let me explain. You said: “…if this Christian thing takes so much (as it seems) emotional effort (as my Christianity did) why not really examine with (I hate to even suggest this) an open mind, and ask yourself what the heck you are doing it for?
—–Bob, how did you miss, when you were reading and studing the Bible that it would NOT be an “emotional effort?” Did you not read, “Work out your salvation with fear and trembling?” Did you not read that if Christ was hated by men, we would too? Did you not read of the terrible struggle between Satan and Jesus in the desert? Or the gut wrenching passion that went on in the garden? How could you miss the absolute emotional agony and distress of Peter after his denial? Did you miss the struggling Timothy as Paul tried to lift him up from emotional efforts?
For me, at least, Paul’s struggle with his thorn in the flesh, and Jesus’ answer to him makes it easy for me: “My grace is sufficent for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” And there in comes my joy and peace. I stuggle and hurt as anyone on this blog, but dispair. NO. For as Paul goes on to say, “For when I am weak, then I am strong.”
Bob, thanks for what you wrote. It has given me a chance to reevaluate where my strenght, joy and peace come from.
jerry [fishon]
why can’t people simply express where they are without someone always having to correct them? this is what annoys me most about religion. no one is allowed to search and find for themselves. it all has to be delegated by some authority or insider. the fact is we all equally have the capacity for evil as well as good. we all have the capacity for despair and joy. we all have the capacity to doubt and reject as believe and accept. and this doesn’t even bring in to the equation the will of the Lord to afflict us or bless us if he so chooses. without humility we just perpetuate division.
David, my friend;
why can’t people simply express where they are without someone always having to correct them?
———-Are you saying that you don’t throw out provocative stuff AND NOT EXPECTING REACTIONS? You put up your art work with messages straight forward and sometimes subtle. I thought it was part of the purpose of art to exact reaction? Am I wrong?
You can’t tell me, well I suppose you could, but I wouldn’t believe you that the S— cartoon was not going to bring about some reactions of difference and offence?
And to be straight forward–some things NEED correcting.
You talk about community and tolerance — where is the community of tolerance for we who have not grown up enough yet to get over being the ‘correction’ police?
You speak of community and all it diverse individuals. That, my friend, would include some of us know-it-all’s, that is unless we must be excluded from community–then it becomes a exclusive country – club again.
By the way, I don’t believe the search in regards to religion is a “…find for themselves…search. I believe the story of the eunuch and Philip proves that. “Two are better than one, if one falls down….”
Brother, I do wish you a wonderful, joyious Easter worship.
fishon
I can see all too clearly why some abandon the faith and why there would be a sense of a burden being lifted. Free at last from the struggle to be something I’m not, from some restrictions (not that I would suddenly become a wild profligate – I’m not that kind of guy!), and so on. I choose not to do that for myself but do not blame those for whom the road is different
Grace, for me, is not some of kind of medicine that I take repeatedly. It’s simply an understanding of who I am (“we all equally have the capacity for evil as well as good. we all have the capacity for despair and joy. we all have the capacity to doubt and reject as believe and accept.”) and accepting myself because God does. It’s a stance, not a method; it requires no effort on my part. In fact, it’s when I slip back into struggling that I mess up. When I live in acceptance, I notice I start to become the sort of man I always wanted to be in the first place! So that seems to me to be a good thing
i always try to remember to challenge the IDEA and not the PERSON or the person’s character. i think it is fair and necessary to challenge or debate the many ideas out there, but always to remember that i may not be right, but wrong.
Good thoughts, all.
Let me address just a few:
fishon – “I have the assurance of heaven; what hope for the end of your journey do you have?”
Good question. While we could argue about “assurance” and “hope” (I think you have hope, not assurance where heaven is concerned) allow me to state that, and I will do this as gently as I possibly can…well, let me just say that, based on my study of the bible, the entire bible, Old and New Testaments, I have absolutely no desire to go to heaven (if you-know-who will be in charge). I’ll leave it at that. But I really believe the only, or maybe a simpler description of our differences concerning an afterlife, is this: You believe there is one and I don’t. That does not mean that I don’t hope there is one. I would love for there to be an afterlife, some sort of post existence. I think it would be wonderful if, just after closing my eyes for the last time, I awoke in some wonderful place with all (or perhaps some) of my friends and family. So, while I don’t believe there is an afterlife, I can not say that there is not one. But for me, I find the biblical afterlife to be very unappealing, from a moral standpoint.
As for this:
fishon – “Bob, how did you miss, when you were reading and studying the Bible that it would NOT be an “emotional effort?â€
I didn’t miss it. For 25 years I sought relief. I prayed, had others pray for me, read, prayed and prayed. No answer. No relief. I felt I was completely on my own. If Jesus answers prayers, why did he not offer any answer for mine? Not one. Please don’t say that he did. If his answer was unheard by me, the one asking for an answer, then the answer was completely useless.
But as I have said, I am fine now. And I just feel for folks, good folks like David who struggle with this inner turmoil. I really wish I could help. All I can do, I guess, is offer up my experiences and my struggles, I guess.
bob
lets_reason@yahoo.com
You know, I think the times that I feel the furthest from God is when I am doing too much “digging” for the answers and all I hear are conflicting doctrine and messages from all over the board. I have tried recently to cut way back on the “manmade” influences and let God speak for himself. He seems to do a much better job of it!
I think it’s also helpful, when we find ourselves maybe going inward too much, to reach out. Nothing makes me feel better, more loving and more receiving of God’s love than when I get out there and do things for others. Even just a kind word or a greeting card to someone who’s hurting can make such a difference in their lives and it makes me feel full of God’s love at the same time.
Sometimes I think we get so wrapped up in ourselves that we can see the forest for the trees, don’t we?
Bob,
You were gentle. No problem.
We disagree on much, but we could be good next-door neighbors.
I agree with this: “And I just feel for folks, good folks like David who struggle with this inner turmoil. I really wish I could help. All I can do, I guess, is offer up my experiences and my struggles, I guess.”
I guess that is why I sound so combative at times. Frustration that I don’t have the words that can help.
fishon
Let people deal with their problems their way.
I’m sure when they stand before God it will all be explained that you knew the way to perfect happiness and joy that we should all have followed.
In the meantime, dearest blogfriend, fishoff!
Hehehe…
thebutler,
In the meantime, dearest blogfriend, fishoff!
——As a member of this tolerant blog community, I believe I will continue to “fish.”
Butler, you give me wayyyyy too much credit. I don’t believe for a second that any thing I say STOPS people from “deal[ing] with their problems their way.” But you flatter me with thinking I may just have that much influence.
Oops, I just reread what you wrote. I believe I sense some sarcasm on your part. As a member of this tolerant blog community, I accept your your sarcasm.
I do find it a bit ironic that you would tell me to “Let people deal with their problems their way,” and yet you tell me how to deal with my problem of opinionation. That somehow just doesnt’ seem to be consistent, my blog pal?
You MAKE IT a great tomorrow. Dang, I did it again, telling somebody what to do.
fishon
I see.
Does the back of the shirt say,
“this I sew”?
It’s good to remember what He knew/knows/will know?
Bob, I love what you had to say. A few years ago I left a church that kept telling me to ask for “more”. We sang songs that said, “there must be more” and I strove to find it. I have struggled with depression my whole life and during that time I always felt I wasn’t enough. I became a Christian at the age of nine and always felt a failure at it. When I started attending that community I thought I was being promised that I would finally feel like I was enough because I would attain the relationship with Christ I had never been able to grasp. I cried and screamed, roared like a lion and laughed hysterically but I never found the “more”.
I finally left about four years ago and I have never felt better. My depression has lifted and I look forward to each day in a way I never did in the past. What I like about np’s community is they don’t insist there is “more” that I need than who I am right now. And I now realize that Jesus doesn’t either. I know He walks beside me everyday but somedays I forget to talk to Him and yet He doesn’t leave me. Some days I’m really mad at Him and He just takes it. And some days I pour out my heart to Him and He just listens. For some reason that’s all I need from Him right now I think He is happy to give just that. Maybe this doesn’t sound like the “Jesus” we read about in the Bible who seems to require so much from us but He is the Jesus I need right now and I know He loves me. I don’t need Him to prove it to me anymore and I don’t need to prove anything to Him.
I think what you express is scary to those of us who hang on because the question is always there, “Does He really exist?” I remember seeing the writer June Collingwood (not sure of spelling) in an interview. She recalled a moment in time when she ran into a church in a time of despair and crisis and she called out to God and she waited. He didn’t answer. She left the church not believing anymore. I saw an interview just before her death and she had not changed her view. She believed her existance would end when she died and there was no God. I know her cry was genuine and she really needed God. Why didn’t He anwer her or did she miss the answer and if she did why did God let her miss it? Scary questions for me because I’ve cried out like that and had no response. So why do I hang on? I think because “Where would I go?” I love God, “though He would slay me”.
Sorry for the run on. I do know one thing my relationship with God has nothing to do with any church community. It’ just Him and me.
So why do I hang on? I think because “Where would I go?†I love God, “though He would slay meâ€.
Me too. Thanks Shelley
Great comments by all on this posting.
Jesus said “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”
Sometimes it feels as though He has. But He hasn’t. He is there through thick and thin, getting us through it somehow.
Living by faith alone is hard. Very hard. But He will get us through this life and someday take us to the promised land.
Then the real party will begin!
Hang tough, and remember…For Jesus’ sake, we are forgiven. And that’s enough.
– Steve
“i always try to remember to challenge the IDEA and not the PERSON or the person’s character” (NP)
Great line David – couldn’t agree with you more! Isn’t that such a great way to live – I find it works rather nicely myself!
I don’t have any wisdom to pass along.
But I must say reading all of this has opened my eyes and made me see how I have been trying to go “deeper” with my relationship with Jesus.
I think I will just rest a bit and enjoy where I am.
ahhhhhhhhhh
jeannie,
I know that I am the odd man out on this blog site, but so be it. I would offer this scripture to you, though last time I told about giving a scripture to someone–well, let’s just say some folks don’t like scripture being given out.
Anyway, here is scripture to consider: Acts 17:11 from the NIV: “Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.”
Keep on ‘going deeper.’ The Bereans did and so can you. Here is another:
Romans 15:4, “For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the scriptures we might have hope.”
Of well, what’s one more!!! 2 Tim. 3:16, “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so the the man of God may be thouroughly equipped for every good work.”
Jeannie, go deeper. Do not be afraid. The only way you are going to get some of the great WOW moments is to go deeper.
Listen, there will be those who will disagree, but I encourage you to go by the scriptures. Let them speak for themselves. And that includes anything I would tell you. Just go with what the scriptures say–not what I say or anyone else.
fishon
The scriptures wil speak for themselves if you let them…
Halleluiah, thebutler,
We are in agreement.
“…but I encourage you to go by the scriptures. Let them speak for themselves. And that includes anything I would tell you. Just go with what the scriptures say–not what I say or anyone else.”
fishon
No. No they won’t. And there are far too many problems with that statement to go into here.
Fishon,
I have no problem with Scripture. I love it as an awesome message from my beautiful Creator. My problem is with the many people who over the years have misused the Word. Many of these men and woman were sincerely trying to enlighten and I don’t doubt your sincerity. You feel you need to save those who may be misled by what they read here. But I believe God is so much bigger than something I may say that is not quite right as I walk out my own personal spiritual journey.
I still have many scriptures that I can’t read because of the way they have been used in the past. The words of men still ring when I read them. Words that condemned, controlled and confused. I look forward to the time when I can read them as God’s words to me.
I have heard the instructions to “go deeper”, and “remember you have to seek the Lord your God will ALL your heart!’ so many times and each time I tried a little harder. But the “deeper” didn’t happen (at least I don’t think it did.). Tell me, what does deeper look like, feel like? How will I know when I attain it? And how do you know that what I’m doing won’t help me know God on a deeper level. I trust God to bring me back if I get to far out there.
To close here are a few scriptures that I believe support where I am right now.
“Be still and know that I am God.” “Come all you who are heavy laden and I will give you rest.” “In returning and rest you shall be saved, in quietness and trust shall be your strength.”
If I am wrong I trust that “God’s kindness is meant to lead (me) to repentance” and “nothing can separate (me) from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus”.
I sometimes hesitate to share it because I’m not sure if I have the knowledge or words to make my point but I guess I can stand with Paul when he said, “I decided to know nothing among you, except Jesus Christ and him crucified.
Shelly,
I too have problems with people who misuse scripture. Of course, there isn’t a one of us who have quoted scripture that would not have someone disagree with us in our interpretations. Some have some good points to discuss, while others just argue with anything scripture.
And I agree with you: “God is so much bigger than something I may say….” That is why I try and always go back to scripture. That is why I gave ’scripture’ to Jeannie to examine. She doesn’t have to rely on any of my words. She can read it right from here very own Bible, then the Holy Spirit will deal with the meaning.
I truely am sorry that the you can not read some of God’s word because of how some men have skewed them. I have no doubt that there would be those, in fact I know there are those on this blog, who say I skew them. But that’s ok. In the end of the matter, each one of us must ‘work out’ our salvation just between we and God, and no other is responcible for it.
I am really interested in this statement of yours:::::”I have heard the instructions to “go deeperâ€, and “remember you have to seek the Lord your God will ALL your heart!’ so many times and each time I tried a little harder. But the “deeper†didn’t happen (at least I don’t think it did.). Tell me, what does deeper look like, feel like? How will I know when I attain it? And how do you know that what I’m doing won’t help me know God on a deeper level. I trust God to bring me back if I get to far out there.”
——-I don’t know if you are seriously asking, or trying to make a point to me? But I will answer as if you are asking?———-What is your interpretation of “deeper” with the Lord? Is it knowledge, emotion, or a combination? Is it warm, fuzzy that some folks say we will have if we are deep into God, or is it freedom from occasional doubt? What might this “deeper” look to you?
I can NOT tell you what “deeper” looks like or feels like. I have my/God’s congregation repeat these words with me every Sunday. “”Faith is having the absolute trust in the integrity of God; He will do and can do everything He says He will do.”" ——–For me, I absolutely believe that. I hang on to that, live it, and sometimes cry in it. For me, that is deeper——-for you——-I don’t have the pat answer.
And Shelly, I make no judgement as to whether what you are doing is helping you God deeper with God or not. I don’t think I ever said anything to you that inimated you weren’t going deep with God.
And as far as ‘hesitat[ing] to share because of a lack of knowledge or words, first, you do just fine; second, welcome to the club of where many of us don’t alway get our point[s] across.
Nice talking/writing with you.
fishon
Hey David, Just a note to let you know that I am praying for you everyday.
Fishon,
I was responding to your words: “The only way you are going to have those WOW moments is to go deeper.”
You also seemed to assume that because Jeannie was going to relax and enjoy where she is means she is going to stop reading or searching out scripture.
I believe we should always enjoy where we are right now, who we are right now because I believe God does. He looks at me and sees the desires of my heart and is pleased. You know God looks at the heart but man looks at the outside. I know I am not perfect (sin free) but Jesus died to cover that and if I deny His sacrifice He wasted His time. My holiness is a process and I cannot demand more of myself than God would. I trust Him to convict my heart, and even correct me if need be. And if it comes from someone who loves me and someone I trust I will listen but even Jesus said He didn’t come to condemn so anyone who is correcting what they perceive to be a sin in my life should examine their motives.
My question of what deeper looks like is both sincere and frustrated. In the past, in my experience, the exhortation to go deeper has been connected to the suggestion that I was in some way lacking spiritually. There was often a suggestion that my character was being assessed in order to determine my maturity as a Christian and whether or not I was fit to serve in the body. Deeper has always meant I have to have more of something. More of a personal relationship with God? More spirituallity? What do these things even look like? Will I have more of the fruit of the Spirit?
I don’t think we should exhort someone to “go deeper” without qualifying what that means. Also, what are “WOW moments”? Do you assume that those of us who think/feel differently don’t have them or don’t have the great ones you do? This sounds angry and I don’t want you to tune out because of my frustration. But God has created us all to be such unique individuals and He deals with us all on an individual basis. He has so many ways to touch us and reach us and save us and draw us to Him, how can we quote scripture we have chosen and say that is the only way or the only truth. As you said yourself scriptures have different interpretations. A philosophy professor who said he didn’t believe in God once told me if you give 10 Christians one scripture they will come up with 10 different and even conflicting interpretations. I know most of the scripture you could quote to me (not bragging, just comes from my Baptist background) and yet if God is not speaking to me through scripture at this time or is speaking through different scriptures it will mean nothing to me. Scripture, when God is speaking to us through it, has a quality of purity about it. It’s like the vivid blue of the sky, the song of a bird, the smooth texture of an ocean washed rock. It’s incredible!
Fishon, it’s not up to you to save the world (I say this with sincerity not sarcasm). I don’t agree with everything Dave believes and he wouldn’t even want me too. He celebrates diversity in the body. I think he loves a good debate and yes, may even instigate one sometimes but I believe he is sincere in his desire to know and love Christ and to know and love the Body. He has helped me learn to accept and love people where they are (no matter how messy) (myself included) and let God do the work that He decides is necessary. It is true that sometimes we need to hear correction from each other but I think that correction is way to easy to do and really loving each other comes much harder.
You sounded sincere in your response to me and I thank you but when I read your entries you always seem to be teaching or preaching. Why don’t you share more on how you, personally, feel about about what’s being said. How does if affect you and why. I’m really interested.
God Bless, Shelley
Brianmpei: ‘No. No they won’t. And there are far too many problems with that statement to go into here.’
Yeah, I kinda didn’t want to go into it as well. Hence the throwaway comment…
Shelly,
Lots to answer, but I won’t even try to get to all of it. I will pick a couple of issues that I ‘assume’ are important because you asking or writing about them.
#1. “Deeper”
I believe the Apostle Paul defines “deeper” this way, though he didn’t use the word.
Philippians 2:3-5 –Vs. 5, You attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus. vs 3,4 Do nothing out of…,” well you can read the rest.
You touched on the ‘fruit of the Spirit.” When the fruit of the Spirit starts to manifest itself in our lives, we are going deeper.
“Rightly dividing the Word” is going deeper.
I think Proverbs 3:5-6 has much to say about going deeper.
Paul, I believe gives a very good illustration of deeper when he says, “…for I have LEARNED [caps mine] to be content whatever the circumstance….”
#2. WOW moments?
The deeper search is the only way that WOW moments will happen. And yes, I assume that those who do not go deeper will NOT have WOW moments with God. Of course, going deeper is always subjective to where the individual is in their journey with Christ. So a babe in Christ can have a WOW moment, and so too the PHd in his/her journey. When I think of WOW moments, I am not thinking about the 27 Eagles my wife and I saw one day, a month ago. That was a wow, but not a Spiritual WOW. That I can not define. Each one will know it when it happens.
#3. “Fishon, it’s not up to you to save the world.”
That is true. The world is far to big for me to cover. And I am sure you would agree, “I can’t save anyone.” But we who are saved are called to be His hands, feet, salt, light, and His ambassadors.
#4. “You sounded sincere in your response to me and I thank you but when I read your entries you always seem to be teaching or preaching.”
Probably true. I just use more words than David uses in his cartoons and drawings.
#5. “Why don’t you share more on how you, personally, feel about about what’s being said. How does if affect you and why.” I’m really interested.
Shelly, for the most part, just me sharing scriptures has drawn the ire of some. More than once I have been invited to “fishoff.”
Though I go further in what I say than many feel comfortable with in this blog room, I choice not to push much further because of respect for the person of David, NP. I have seen to many blogs become name calling contest, and I want to not become a part of that. To tell you the truth, if I were to share how I personally feel about what is being said, sometimes, I would be running up against the line of sin. That is why I go to scripture–I will let God’s word speak, where the Old Fishon would sin.
You asked me to get into more: How does if affect you and why.
2 Reasons. First, I don’t articulate very well in written form.
Second, I would be totally misunderstood [and have been] in this setting.
EXAMPLE:
AFFECT: It breaks my heart to see so many Christians in such distress and pain who are a part of this blog, including the head cheese, and remain there.
WHY: Though each one of us go through those trials, I believe that it is totally unnecessary for almost anyone to remain in the state of distress and pain as long as some on here have indicated. {{{Excluding a physical or mental reason}}}.
Just saying what I said above is going to put some on tilt.
Ok, Shelly, one more example.
The S— shirt.
AFFECT: It sickened me to see a Christian pastor put up such a thing.
WHY: Because I don’t think NP would NOT put it in a box and send it to Jesus as a present as some of his best use of the talent that God has given him.
Well, enough from me. Good to exchange thoughts with you.
fishon
Suffering is part of life. The Bible teaches it.
In The Road Less Travelled, M Scott Peck explains how a lot of us flee from the pain of solving problems and end up either neurotic or with character disorders (i.e. the neurotic assumes too much responsability and the person with a character disorder not enough).
I’d like to add to that the idea that as a Christian we may be tempted to flee day to day problems by imagining that God will lift us out of it all, or prayer will make it go away. But that’s not what God wants for us. He wants us to live and learn, even if at the end of it we are lifted from life and taken to Heaven with Jesus.
thebutler,
I would agree, if I understand you right: “…as a Christian we may be tempted to flee day to day problems by imagining that God will lift us out of it all, or prayer will make it go away.”
Apostle Paul could no more flee or pray away a beating with the rod or whatever else befell him. There are trails, pain, suffering that Christian or non-christian all must go through. And in all of lifes hardships Paul tells us he ‘learned to be content,’ then he tells us how he came to that: “I can do all things through Christ who strenghens me.”
fishon
deep is as deep does…