Living rooms don’t have rows of pews to sleep in during the lecture.
Living rooms don’t have podiums and pulpits to put one person on the pedestal.
Living rooms don’t have sound systems and baptismals and stained glass and vestments which must be maintained and upgraded (and paid for) continually.
Living rooms don’t have offering plates or pretty little double handled velvet bags.
Living rooms don’t have large education systems which require more and more consumable materials, volunteers, tables and chairs, volunteers, nifty technology, volunteers, sugary snacks, propaganda, and volunteers.
Churches don’t usually have meaningful dialogue.
Churches don’t usually have “everyone is a minister” theology.
Churches don’t usually feel like a home (safe, cozy, inviting, pick your adjective).
Churches don’t care.
People care.
More and more, I seek a living room.
(Pagan Christianity? by Frank Viola and George Barna is an excellent read.)
(Unless you’re a fundamentalist–you won’t want to pay $17.99, plus tax, just to get pissed off.)
ttm, I assume that by “Churches” you mean “church buildings.”
It may surprise you to learn how many times people (“churched” and “unchurched”) have walked into our church building and remarked that it felt like home.
Yeah, Fred, you got me. I did use the word “churches” as synonymous with “church buildings” in my previous comment. Obviously, buildings don’t care. In actuality, I believe that we–individual Christians collectively, but not necessarily institutionally–are “the church.” But sometimes it’s hard to communicate clearly in a society which equates the word “church” with buildings and not with spirits/souls/organic temples.
It doesn’t surprise me at all that some church buildings have a homelike atmosphere. I’ve attended a place or two like that. That’s why I used the words “don’t usually” in my comment.
Here’s another thought (qualified with the word “often” so as not to irritate your generalization detector): often buildings (that people call churches) which feel like home in the beginning end up feeling like a courtroom, a prison, or a morgue later.
And although that probably is due to people just being people; I’ve found that in my own life it happens more often with people who are unquestionably loyal to the twin idols of Set-in-Stone Tradition and Hierarchial Institution. These seem to be the illegitimate offspring or dead ancestors to which The Church foolishly builds shrines.
I don’t see the message being about buildings. I think its about looking to buildings for what we can find inside. I don’t really see how Christianity takes seriously the idea that something quite wonderful can dwell within us.
There is a lot of lip service and theology about our bodies being living temples, but this usually refers to taking care of the body. I don’t believe that was the emphasis.
There are a lot of things inside referred to by Jesus that I don’t believe that Christianity has really grasped. What is this kingdom of God within? What is this spirit that dwells within that makes all sons of God?
What I see emphasized with Christianity is that we are all sinners with righteousness as filthy tampons to give it a literal modern translation. Where is the wonderfulness? Where is the abundance? Where is the power?
Maybe instead of looking to organizations, buildings, dogmas, doctrines, prayers, Bibles, and other externals Christianity might recapture the deep mystery of what dwells within.
Hands up everyone who copied their comments from a brochure advocating the “emergent church” movement.
Perhaps there is nothing new under the sun after all.
Oh well, back to my ministry (i.e. doing my “secular” work) in my very own hand-made temple (= home office).
“There are a lot of things inside referred to by Jesus that I don’t believe that Christianity has really grasped. What is this kingdom of God within? What is this spirit that dwells within that makes all sons of God?
What I see emphasized with Christianity is that we are all sinners with righteousness as filthy tampons to give it a literal modern translation. Where is the wonderfulness? Where is the abundance? Where is the power?
Maybe instead of looking to organizations, buildings, dogmas, doctrines, prayers, Bibles, and other externals Christianity might recapture the deep mystery of what dwells within.”
The filty rags (used tampons) quote was meant to tell us that our works are not pefect for the sake of righteousness in God’s kingdom. We can still do things down here for the sake of our neighbor, we just don’t get any brownie points in God’s eyes.
We are all creatues of God but the sons and daughters of God are called and chosen… by Him.
Jesus said, “I choose you, you do not choose me.” We are born, “not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
Christianity (the way I read it from the Bible) is all about externals. God’s comes to us (externally) to save us. He acts on our behalf, over and over again, to save us from the sin that dwells within us, and the sin that is in the world (other people), and the evil one himself (satan). He does these things from outside of us, through his Word and sacraments.
God does work through us and in us, but the ‘old Adam’ inside of us keeps popping up every now and then to do some damage.
To look for the true goodness and righteousness we need to overcome our selfish desires and motives, we need to look to Christ who comes to us (externally).
Anyway, that’s my take on it. I can’t take credit for it, I learned it from the Bible (and my pastor) and I believe it by the grace of God alone, and even then, I still battle my unbelief all the time.
Richard wrote: Maybe instead of looking to organizations, buildings, dogmas, doctrines, prayers, Bibles, and other externals Christianity might recapture the deep mystery of what dwells within.
—–What a load of garabage.
**Organization–Christ set it up–Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, Teachers.
Elders, and Deacons. You might take a read at 1 Cor. 12:28
**Buildings are just buildings, nothing more, nothing less.
**I do believe Paul wrote Timothy something like: “Watch your life and DOCTRINE [caps mine] closely. PRESEVERE [caps mine] in them, BECAUSE [caps mine] if you do, you will save both yourself and your heaers.” Now that is Bible, not hollow words of Richard.
**Instead of reading some of the “Emegent garbage,” looking for “…the deep mystery of what dwells within,” it is the Bible and Prayer that will reveal those mysterys.
So Richard, what do you look at {apparently not ‘doctrine, prayer, or the Bible’] to find the mystery within? since you told us: “…instead of looking to….”
fishon
For the same reason that the Jews headed to one at the instruction of the same God who does not dwell in temples made with hands. This statement has nothing to do with temples of worship; it has everything to do with conceiving of a god who can be contained in one and then rented as needed in a pagan fashion.
The early Christians continued to meet in the temple. The Church temporarily found itself without their own during periods of persecution. But, the church’s buildings today are still “temples,” assuming that the people who go there to worship God and receive the Sacraments are, themselves, temples. We have apostles, prophets, elders, bishops, priests, today in the Church, only because we are all priests. We can similarly have temples — sacred places set apart for worship — only because we are all consecrated as temples at our baptisms.
The other option is an ahistorical indifference, a sort of gnosticism or Montanism that sees no value in matter; or, it is an idolization of the living room. I have seen no greater abuse of space in my life than by friends in “house churches” who insist so strongly against “temples” that they unknowingly turn their living room into one.
David Hayward is a pastor artistically stripping to the essential.
because your living room isn’t big enough…
it might be today (storm and all)
“Temple”–yeah, some people still think of that building as the “house of God.” The one I love is the mortar and brick building called a “tabernacle.”
Really not much difference between a living room or a building built to meet in when we can’t fit in the living room anymore.
fishon
Living rooms don’t have rows of pews to sleep in during the lecture.
Living rooms don’t have podiums and pulpits to put one person on the pedestal.
Living rooms don’t have sound systems and baptismals and stained glass and vestments which must be maintained and upgraded (and paid for) continually.
Living rooms don’t have offering plates or pretty little double handled velvet bags.
Living rooms don’t have large education systems which require more and more consumable materials, volunteers, tables and chairs, volunteers, nifty technology, volunteers, sugary snacks, propaganda, and volunteers.
Churches don’t usually have meaningful dialogue.
Churches don’t usually have “everyone is a minister” theology.
Churches don’t usually feel like a home (safe, cozy, inviting, pick your adjective).
Churches don’t care.
People care.
More and more, I seek a living room.
(Pagan Christianity? by Frank Viola and George Barna is an excellent read.)
(Unless you’re a fundamentalist–you won’t want to pay $17.99, plus tax, just to get pissed off.)
classic!
ttm, I assume that by “Churches” you mean “church buildings.”
It may surprise you to learn how many times people (“churched” and “unchurched”) have walked into our church building and remarked that it felt like home.
“Churches don’t care.”
“Generalizations are always wrong.”
Yeah, Fred, you got me. I did use the word “churches” as synonymous with “church buildings” in my previous comment. Obviously, buildings don’t care. In actuality, I believe that we–individual Christians collectively, but not necessarily institutionally–are “the church.” But sometimes it’s hard to communicate clearly in a society which equates the word “church” with buildings and not with spirits/souls/organic temples.
It doesn’t surprise me at all that some church buildings have a homelike atmosphere. I’ve attended a place or two like that. That’s why I used the words “don’t usually” in my comment.
Here’s another thought (qualified with the word “often” so as not to irritate your generalization detector): often buildings (that people call churches) which feel like home in the beginning end up feeling like a courtroom, a prison, or a morgue later.
And although that probably is due to people just being people; I’ve found that in my own life it happens more often with people who are unquestionably loyal to the twin idols of Set-in-Stone Tradition and Hierarchial Institution. These seem to be the illegitimate offspring or dead ancestors to which The Church foolishly builds shrines.
I don’t see the message being about buildings. I think its about looking to buildings for what we can find inside. I don’t really see how Christianity takes seriously the idea that something quite wonderful can dwell within us.
There is a lot of lip service and theology about our bodies being living temples, but this usually refers to taking care of the body. I don’t believe that was the emphasis.
There are a lot of things inside referred to by Jesus that I don’t believe that Christianity has really grasped. What is this kingdom of God within? What is this spirit that dwells within that makes all sons of God?
What I see emphasized with Christianity is that we are all sinners with righteousness as filthy tampons to give it a literal modern translation. Where is the wonderfulness? Where is the abundance? Where is the power?
Maybe instead of looking to organizations, buildings, dogmas, doctrines, prayers, Bibles, and other externals Christianity might recapture the deep mystery of what dwells within.
Hands up everyone who copied their comments from a brochure advocating the “emergent church” movement.
Perhaps there is nothing new under the sun after all.
Oh well, back to my ministry (i.e. doing my “secular” work) in my very own hand-made temple (= home office).
Richard Harty,
“There are a lot of things inside referred to by Jesus that I don’t believe that Christianity has really grasped. What is this kingdom of God within? What is this spirit that dwells within that makes all sons of God?
What I see emphasized with Christianity is that we are all sinners with righteousness as filthy tampons to give it a literal modern translation. Where is the wonderfulness? Where is the abundance? Where is the power?
Maybe instead of looking to organizations, buildings, dogmas, doctrines, prayers, Bibles, and other externals Christianity might recapture the deep mystery of what dwells within.”
The filty rags (used tampons) quote was meant to tell us that our works are not pefect for the sake of righteousness in God’s kingdom. We can still do things down here for the sake of our neighbor, we just don’t get any brownie points in God’s eyes.
We are all creatues of God but the sons and daughters of God are called and chosen… by Him.
Jesus said, “I choose you, you do not choose me.” We are born, “not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
Christianity (the way I read it from the Bible) is all about externals. God’s comes to us (externally) to save us. He acts on our behalf, over and over again, to save us from the sin that dwells within us, and the sin that is in the world (other people), and the evil one himself (satan). He does these things from outside of us, through his Word and sacraments.
God does work through us and in us, but the ‘old Adam’ inside of us keeps popping up every now and then to do some damage.
To look for the true goodness and righteousness we need to overcome our selfish desires and motives, we need to look to Christ who comes to us (externally).
Anyway, that’s my take on it. I can’t take credit for it, I learned it from the Bible (and my pastor) and I believe it by the grace of God alone, and even then, I still battle my unbelief all the time.
Thanks Richard.
– Steve
Richard wrote: Maybe instead of looking to organizations, buildings, dogmas, doctrines, prayers, Bibles, and other externals Christianity might recapture the deep mystery of what dwells within.
—–What a load of garabage.
**Organization–Christ set it up–Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, Teachers.
Elders, and Deacons. You might take a read at 1 Cor. 12:28
**Buildings are just buildings, nothing more, nothing less.
**I do believe Paul wrote Timothy something like: “Watch your life and DOCTRINE [caps mine] closely. PRESEVERE [caps mine] in them, BECAUSE [caps mine] if you do, you will save both yourself and your heaers.” Now that is Bible, not hollow words of Richard.
**Instead of reading some of the “Emegent garbage,” looking for “…the deep mystery of what dwells within,” it is the Bible and Prayer that will reveal those mysterys.
So Richard, what do you look at {apparently not ‘doctrine, prayer, or the Bible’] to find the mystery within? since you told us: “…instead of looking to….”
fishon
Richard and Steve,
Thanks for giving me something to think about today.
Because you don’t want him to feel lonely in case he’s going…
ttm,
Thank you (for the thank you).
And thanks to David, he has a real nack for stimulating thought on the issuses that face us all in faith and life.
– Steve
Acts 2:41-4:47
They met in the Temple – it says
and
In each others homes.
Both are beautiful and natural expressions of the body of Christ for the last 2000 years – I hope we keep it
For the same reason that the Jews headed to one at the instruction of the same God who does not dwell in temples made with hands. This statement has nothing to do with temples of worship; it has everything to do with conceiving of a god who can be contained in one and then rented as needed in a pagan fashion.
The early Christians continued to meet in the temple. The Church temporarily found itself without their own during periods of persecution. But, the church’s buildings today are still “temples,” assuming that the people who go there to worship God and receive the Sacraments are, themselves, temples. We have apostles, prophets, elders, bishops, priests, today in the Church, only because we are all priests. We can similarly have temples — sacred places set apart for worship — only because we are all consecrated as temples at our baptisms.
The other option is an ahistorical indifference, a sort of gnosticism or Montanism that sees no value in matter; or, it is an idolization of the living room. I have seen no greater abuse of space in my life than by friends in “house churches” who insist so strongly against “temples” that they unknowingly turn their living room into one.