My church is not:
- its building
- its meetings
- its prayer
- its worship
- its teaching
- its reputation
- its leaders
- its plans
- its history
- its future…
… and I get very tired of fighting off everyone and everything that would make me believe this.
Contributions to nakedpastor are greatly appreciated.
David Hayward is an artist trapped in a pastor's body, stripping to the essential.
But the church includes those things as part of its makeup, so don’t scorn them either.
That said, I know what you mean – I’ve heard most of those things said in different forms of “XYZ is what the Church is all about!”
So what, pray tell, is “church”?
The people?
So what do you think of the house church alternative? Just read an interesting article on it here:
http://www.lifestream.org/LSBL.Feb02.html
The author feels it has many of the same problems as the established churches. Might be of interest to you.
When you say, “My church is not…,” who is the “My” you are referring to?
Why would/do you need to fight off “everyone and everything that would make me [you] believe this”? —–David, several of my questions you don’t answer, and I can understand that. But I sure hope you answer these 2 and ttm’s.
fishon
I agree – none of those things define “church” in their totality. What would you say “church” is? Is it a combination of those things (and others) revolving around a community? Or something else?
Cheers.
I think the church is the community of people that want to follow Christ or even learn about Christ – and they get together to know one another and build relationships one with another. I actually kind of like David’s admission here – the institution is not the church – and this focus gets lost on a lot of people in the West.
Well keep up the fight Dave, but retreat into God’s Loving Arms when you need to… I do, quite often.
The church is the people. No more, no less.
Sas x
Here’s where being Lutheran pays off a bit – we’ve got a quick definition for everything.
“The church is the assembly of believers in which the gospel is purely preached and the sacraments are administered rightly.” Augsburg Confession, Article 8
Of course, that misses the point of David’s argument, which is to say that the church is NOT all the things we add to it. For Lutherans, the true church is created by the Holy Spirit for specific places and times and sometimes gets overwhelmed by all the stuff we pile on top: liturgy, leaders, worship wars, you name it. That’s why we remind ourselves to always go back to the basics: gospel preaching and the sacraments. Anything more and we get in the way.
David, keep the faith!
Ekklesia.
Societyvs,
I don’t disagree with you assesment, but I do believe Ephesians 4:11-16, with emphasis on vss. 12 and 16, teaches the Body of Christ is way more than you discribe.
Ephesians 2:10 makes it equally clear that there is more to the church community.
fishon
Well said. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
I am adding you to my blogroll.
Jeff
its people…
…that may or may not “have” a building
…that meet
…that pray
…that worship
…that teach (and learn)
…that repute…(what?)…well, that share Someone Else’s reputation… (:D)
…that lead? follow?
…that plan (sometimes…and sometimes those plans change…)
…that have an incredible history (personally and collectively)
…and that also have an incredible future.
But it is people.
Fred,
Brilliant!
I am tempted to fight as well. But didn’t Jesus call us to ‘rest’?
Church, is people following Christ. It is rediculously simple.
Nate,
And “following Christ” means what? How do you explain that to someone you are or have just lead to Christ???
“Ridiculously simple!” I think not. If was ridiculously simple, then Paul, James, Peter, John, and Jude would not have had to write the churches, critic, warn, explain, and encourage them.
If it was so simple, they I think Paul would not have had to write: “I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel.” If it was so ridiculously simple, there would have been no need for Jesus having John write the letters to the 7 churches.
fishon
“teaches the Body of Christ is way more than you discribe.” (fishon)
I am not sure what I am missing to be honest – isn’t this all about people? I think as churches we want to religiously rule someone’s faith and I think is what David is trying to avoid in his community – I personally commend him for the effort.
But fishon, what do you think the church is based on those Ephesians passages?
Societyvs,
Maybe I miss understood you? I don’t know! It just seems that most of what I hear you and others say in this blog and several other blogs are that church is basicly about community. Love and fellowship, and not much more. Love and fellowship are a huge part of the church community, but works are and equally important, if not more important part of the community responsibilities.
We can love and fellowship all we want, but if we don’t do as Ephesians teaches, “work,” and of first importance is, make disciples, then we fail as a community.
As far as “… as churches we want to religiously rule someone’s faith…,” is to paint with a way overstated brush. Not that there aren’t a few that do that. But I believe that we live in a Christian society today that is so Americanized [freedom] against the authority of the Word, that when a preach, from the pulpit, calls sin sin, he is characterized as wanted to rule my life.”
One of the biggest screams I ever received was when I said from the pulpit, “A drunkered will NOT inherit the kingdom of God.” Of course I got the old, “Who are you to judge/” and “Who are you to tell me I can’t have a beer? Of course you will see in my statement, I never said he couldn’t have a beer? That person would fall on the side of the “church/me want[ing] to religiously rule…” their faith.
By the way, the nature of love is not always making someone feel warm and fuzzy; it is warning and telling them the danger they are in.
Enough of my ramble.
MAKE IT a great day.
fishon
But the Spirit is always at work in us, and one of the things he does in us, we do together, is reach out in love to others, receive from others.
I think we can trust the Spirit leading us to be like God, and to do like God, as and how he says.
Sas x
It makes me sad that people would question or wonder what nakedpastor is saying here…
Western Christendom is sad. Very sad.
I’ve been reading a lot of Bonhoeffer lately and he would say the same thing.
He talks about a worldly and religionless Christianity. In one of the last outlines of a book he was going to write he said that the Church is her true self only when she exist for humanity. Very this-worldly hmmm very unlike the Western Church.
What a relief that its so simple.
Not easy, but simple.
“but works are and equally important” (fishon)
But works cannot be mandated either – they have to be something the individual truly wants to do (ie: clean up the neighborhood project). I think we can stress the importance of doing good for others but I am not sure we should guilt someone into something like that either (not saying you do this – you likely don’t).
“first importance is, make disciples, then we fail as a community.” (fishon)
Literally the word disciples is very rarely used in this day in age – mentor would be a better expression people would understand (my opinion). I think that is part of the process of being in a community – to mentor others along in their journies in life and alos helping people to think through tough decisions. I agree with you – but the focus again is going to be relationship.
“the nature of love is not always making someone feel warm and fuzzy; it is warning and telling them the danger they are in.” (Fishon)
I agree but we have to earn the right to speak into another’s life and it doesn’t need to be harsh or judgemental. I have no problem with calling a problem what it is – a problem – namely if it effects someone else’s life quite adversely. Again, this is a very touchy subject and I am not a pastor of any sort (but I do have a community of friends) – and I think in discussion hard problems can be civillly worked on.
Rich/Luthsem read Brother Roger from Taize too. He speaks and acts similarly.
Sas x
Recovering – I’m with you. The conversation about this post says more about Christianity in the west than the post itself.