Tucked away in Romans 14: 10 is an obscure little verse that I feel is absolutely crucial to the understanding of community health. I remember in my younger years arguing vehemently for this or that side of the argument: whether a believer could drink or not, etc… or whether he or she shouldn’t if in the company of those who had problems with drinking. Oh yes, how well I remember those debates. Then I remember in more recent years arguing for the sake of freedom and railing against those who would oppress it. But gradually the importance of this verse has changed this and captivated my mind:
Why do you pass judgment on your brother or sister? Or you, why do you despise your brother or sister?
And this is what it all comes down to: judging and despising. I see these two things operating all the time in our community. On the one hand you have someone who has worked hard at becoming an exemplary believer, who practices his or her idea of religion, abstains from certain foods, liquids and practices, and observes spiritual disciplines that would put us to shame, and what happens: they judge those who do not observe the same rules or follow their spiritual walk. They look at them religiously with holy judgment because they are smudgy in their unsaintliness and impure in their spiritual walk. They judge them as sinners, or at least less holy.
Then, on the other hand, someone thinks they’ve come to some revelation, directly from God of course, and has reached a certain level of maturity, spiritual insight, practice and liberty, and what happens? They despise those who haven’t reached the level they’re at, who haven’t had the same revelation, who aren’t as spiritually insightful, who aren’t as liberated. They despise them as spiritually undeveloped children. In both cases, the judgers and despisers look down on others. They don’t love or respect them.
Ah, it never ends. These two things happen simultaneously and perpetually in the life of the community. When we think it is theological exactitude or moral perfection or missional vision that is the point, these are not the point at all. They are important. But they are only the extras. In the last analysis, it’s not going to be what theology you embraced, what spiritual disciplines you practiced, what vision you crafted and pursued, but did you love one another. I’m beginning to wonder if we’ll ever, ever get that.
The picture is an original woodcut I just completed, my first Nude, measuring 4″x5″, available HERE and HERE.
Contributions to nakedpastor are greatly appreciated.
David Hayward is a pastor artistically stripping to the essential.
its me…
i judge and i despise other because of the things they did that hurts me a lot. they’d changed because of grace but i am stuck on despising and judging them.
is there hope for me?? or should i wait for a time for the wound to heal?
if i die today, i will go straight to hell because i can’t remove despising and judging from my heart.
btw, i like the nude, it took me time to figure out what she’s doing
NP,
Is there any room for judging in the Christian life?
fishon
Fear sure often enslaves us – not just fear of the unknown – fear of the other, fear of the different, the unusual, and especially fear of the estranged. There have been one or two rare moments in my life when, by God’s grace, that fear has been absent or abated enough to cross a room or a ‘denominational’ line, and the marvels encountered when that has been so. Why do we waste so much time ’standing on the borderline, outside looking in’?
We so need to love.
“In the last analysis, it’s not going to be what theology you embraced, what spiritual disciplines you practiced, what vision you crafted and pursued, but did you love one another.”
That’s it!
fishon: i think there are two kinds of judging:
1. passing a verdict on someone… judging them as not a brother or whatever.
2. discernment.
we are called to #2, forbidden from #1.
at least i think so.
I agree with you NP about #1 and #2.
What if you know what is the right thing to do but the pain just keeps coming back? Do we just have to keep it with ourselves and just forgive??
BM, give yourself some time.
David-your first nude, congratulations! Like it.
Peace all.
Sas x
David, it seems we so often get #1 and #2 confused… we think we are really moving in discernment (like, it’s one of our “giftings” blah, blah, blah) when it sure as heck smells like judging.
Good post David, I agree full heartedly with your assessment. I’m wondering though if it is a coincidence that your topic was about judging/despising and that your image was your first nude. Just curious!
There’s a saying that illustrates, for me, the problem with living in a world view that judges or discerns. Its like mud slinging. The mud gets on everybody.
In terms of survival our brains are optimized to notice differences. Differences in the wild often are the first clues to something dangerous. We have great pattern recognition instinctively.
One way that I have learned to look at myself and others is in terms of maturity. I know that parts of myself are very mature and advanced. I try to arrange things so that I am often in situations where these skills are most needed.
I also know that I have things that are not so developed. So part of me operates like an adult and other parts of me are barely 5 years old. I hear each of these voices in different situations.
Nobody has the life experience to fully develop every aspect of their being. Its not about being bad or good, it simply a matter of time and experience. I have learned to stop generalizing about myself and others. When my adult speaks I don’t generalize that all of me acts like an adult. When my 5 year speaks I don’t generalize that all of me acts like a 5 year old.
My 5 year old needs different treatment than my adult. I have noticed when dealing with people and myself I need to use age appropriate language and expectations. 5 year olds need lots of hugs and assurance, while adults need more dialog and tend to be more self directed.
Its wonderfully complex. In the process of solving problems, assigning blame is a total waste of time and reduces the chances of successfully solving the problem. The need to assign blame is most often an indication that my 5 year old is running the program. That’s what I consider to be judging.
So when Jesus talks about judgement I don’t think he is suggesting that its something we try to stop doing because 5 year olds are pretty much instinctual. I think when he says that we will be judged by how we judge others it is simply a statement about the internal side effects of judging others. It implies the question, “Do I want to keep getting clobbered by my own judgements?” And until the 5 year old grows up a bit more in an atmosphere that nurtures wisdom, they aren’t going to get it.
I finally realized that there are certain things that can’t be explained to 5 year olds and sometimes my job is to help keep them alive long enough to grow up. I think I did something like this with my own sons.
I let them experience the consequences of their own choices as long as they weren’t fatal.
And I was there when they decided they needed to know a better way to do something. Because generally an offer to advise them on how they should do something didn’t go over well. And I considered this a good thing, because they, in their own wisdom, knew they had to experience life for themselves.
So let me ask you this.
Is it judging [in reference to Jesus' "judge not...."] when you confront the Church Treasurer with the fact that you have caught him/her stealing from the Church treasury?
Is it judging to tell them that they no longer can be Church Treasurer?
Is it judging when you turn them over to the Police?
Or is it love to just ignore it and not confront?
fishon
fishon: that church treasurer incident probably didn’t take any judging. to confront sin isn’t judging, depending on your attitude. are you judging a sinner as less than you, less a brother, less a saint, less loved by God? that’s judging. the church treasurer was self-evident.
Love and respect take us far..
Re: Church Treasurer
Biblical judgment always revolves around behavior and choices, not the essence of a person. In other words…it’s OK to say–that is not the best choice for the treasurer to make…it was a sinful choice. It’s not OK to say….the treasurer is the spawn of Satan and of no worth to God
The difficulty is that people can’t always distinguish between the behavior of a person and the actual person.
Judging others, whether we want to face it or not, is a battle everyone struggles with. I fight it every day.
NP, I like the woodcut. Have you ever tried scratchboard? I think your style would be ideal for it.
Thank you for answering my questions. It has given me a much better understanding of what you mean about judging. And I am in complete agreement.
I praise God that the congregation I pastor does not see struggling [with sin, of course we all struggle with sin, but you know of what I speak] Christians as somehow less of a Christian than themselves or the “spawn of Satan. Oh, we stand against sin and its destruction of the human soul, but we are the first to embrace the sinner to led them to repentance, so as to renew that vertical relationship with the Lord.
Thank you, again, for your replies.
fishon
okay,
but what if it’s not as clear cut as stealing from the church treasury, what if you think it is clear but the offender is not convinced, like you believe it is clear in scripture that it is a sin but it is not a sin according to the world, do you just love them and pray silently, cause sometimes that makes me feel like a hypocrit, but i don’t know what else to do.
In the case of the stealing treasurer I think we can step out of the need to call people sinners. I fully support the idea that each person takes personal responsibility for their actions done ignorantly or not. If we no longer allow this person to be treasurer and require them to pay back what they stole plus damages, that is simply the practical solution. It doesn’t require us to condemn them. On a practical level condemnation actually reduces the chance that a person will change at the deepest level.
Most often people steal because they feel like the need for more. Condemnation increases that feeling of needing more. And I believe withholding consequences that aren’t harmful is more about the need of those doing the forgiving to feel good about being “good’ than about what is best for the personal growth of the person caught stealing.
To me, its really an issue of cause and effect. This doesn’t require me to judge the nature of the person. I think we can look at it more at the level of education and growth. Stealing, to me, is simply being immature. Its choosing a less than optimal option to solve a problem that can be solved in other ways that have far better outcomes.
And when people pass harsh judgements I believe its more about them taking it personally based on an immature view of the world. And passing harsh judgements has its cause and effects that, in my experience, leads to those passing harsh judgements eventually doing the same mistake themselves or in many cases is a sign that they have already done so.
Thanks to you who answered my questions. I will back out now because for me to reply to a particular post would cause hard feelings I suspect.
I believe NP doesn’t mind a small amount of disagreement, but I do not believe he would appreciate a major debate.
Make it a great tomorrow.
fishon
i love major disagreement
Fishon,
No disrespect intended, but your comments bother me sometimes because they echo simplistic answers and a smiley, works-based lifestyle taught by religious “leaders” I have tried to learn from. Their easy answers have not done their magic in my life. Actually, with each failed formula, my misery increased exponentially. I don’t believe in spiritual formulas anymore. I do believe in a mysterious, inexplicable, and loving God whose desire is for me to know Him more and more each day.
I wish that you would address the point in Deb’s comment: What if your convictions are not someone else’s and they see no need to be brought to your point of view or to “repentence”? How do you see them if they don’t bend their behavior to conform to what you have deemed “Biblical”? What if they view your leading as manipulative? If you don’t confront them, do you feel like you aren’t doing your job as pastor? If you do confront them and they don’t repent over time, how can they still feel welcomed and loved?
Make it a great debate.
ttm,
No disrespect taken.
My simplistic answers stem from the fact that I am just a simple, not very well educated pastor who pastor’s a small country Church out in the middle of nowhere. I am the least of all of God’s shepherds, but count it a privelige to serve Him in nowhere land. I live in a county with 1,700 people, and I live in the biggest town, 367 people.
I was a drunk until I was 33. God healed me of that sin. I worked in the timber industry until I was 48, then went to Bible College and got an Associated degree. I had several churches that wanted me, but God make it very clear–”Go to nowhere land.” So here I am, plugging along, doing the best I know how: simplistic answers and all.
ttm, when you say “…your comments bother me sometimes because they echo simplistic answers and a smiley, works-based lifestyle taught by religious “leaders…,†I understand the “simplistic” thing, but would you give me an example or two by what you mean “works based lifestyle taught….” I need some kind of reference so as to be able to reply.
I don’t recall giving any “formula”[s] in this blog. Correct me is I am mistaken, please.
You asked me to address Deb’s comment/questions, thought you condense them into your question. I believe that Deb’s questions where based on my hypothetical question which address a Biblical sin {stealing}. She has moved the hypothetical to “convictions,” not sin. I would need to know of the potential sin that she might be refering to. I can’t do any better than that without more info.
I would say this as to how you pharases her comment/questions: “What if your convictions are not someone else’s and they see no need to be brought to your point of view or to “repentenceâ€?”—No one need repent because of a difference with me over convictions. Convictions are not sins.
Then you ask: “How do you see them if they don’t bend their behavior to conform to what you have deemed “Biblicalâ€?”—First, what may the behavior be? And are they Christian? You leave to much room for my comfort to answer.
You ask: “What if they view your leading as manipulative?” —They would be wrong BASED ON: Galatians 6:1. I do not manipulate. However, I would have to say there are those who do, and it is a grievious thing.
You ask: “If you don’t confront them, do you feel like you aren’t doing your job as pastor?” —It is not only the pastor’s job to confront sin, it is every Christians responsibilty to confront sin, as unpleasant as it can be. Gal. 6:1 is not just addessed to pastors. For to allow someone to continue in “obvious, biblical sin” is not to love them.
You ask: “If you do confront them and they don’t repent over time, how can they still feel welcomed and loved?” —They very well may not continue to feel welcomed and loved. I suggest you reread 1 Corinthians 5 again.
———Would you suggest that I not confront my good friend who I led to the Lord after he spent 2 years in prision for drug dealing and cooking, if he should start dabbling in drugs again? Should I not confront him because he might not feel welcomed and loved in the church or my house, and leave him to destroy his life, and me not fight for him by confrontation? IS THAT REALLY LOVE ON MY PART?
———If by chance I was your pastor and you found me drunk in another town, would you not confront me? You mean you would just love me and let me go on my merry way to destruction?
Confrontation is not in itself a bad thing. How it is done and the intent and motives of the heart can make all the difference. I teach my {Lord’s} congregation to confront sin, and if discipline becomes necessary—IT ALWAYS–ALWAYS has repentance in view.
I will stop and watch a movie now, am surely interested in your reply.
You MAKE IT a great tomorrow.
fishon
David, I’m disappointed. You never answered my question! (Sigh), no worries. Keep up the good blogging, I really enjoyed this post.
Mark: sorry, busy night. whether the first nude had anything to do with the post? no. nothing at all. seriously.
Fishon,
Thank you for your detailed reply to my questions. First of all, I must confess that I am very envious of your life in “nowhere land”! I am a small town girl who is longing to move back to rural MN and am currently stuck trying to sell a house in a very bad seller’s market here in Miami. I’m very eager to get “home” again.
My reference to a “works based lifestyle” was written from the perspective of one who grew up in a charismatic, but fundamental, church. When the church doors were open (and many times when they were not), my family was there with bells on. Underlying the worship, the sermons, the Sunday School lessons, and the atmosphere was this idea that if we just prayed enough, served enough, believed enough, and gave enough God would iron everything out and we would be happy. As I grew up, I began to suspect that following the commandments, church teachings, Gothard Seminar teachings, Evangelism Explosion teachings, Focus on the Family teachings, etc., etc., did not yield any more positive results than NOT following those teachings.
For example, after tithing ten percent (and giving a “love” offering!) the rich folks in our church were still rich and the poor folks were still poor. The families who believed in male headship were falling apart at the same rapid pace as those with a more egalitarian perspective. The parents who followed Gothard’s or Dobson’s style of discipline had wayward children just as often as those who were (GASP!) friends with their children. Smelling a dead rat somewhere in the near vicinity, I started asking questions.
People didn’t really welcome my questions and responded by quoting Scripture–sometimes Scripture that had nothing at all to do with my original question. Just quoting Scripture. Because they thought that it was some magic “fix”. When I pushed for deeper explanations, they responded with irritation. The implication was either I was stupid because they could see this miracle answer clear as day so why couldn’t I? Or I must be a rebel who was rejecting a “Biblical” way of life. I must not be praying enough, or submitting enough, or giving enough, or serving enough. And if I would “just DO these things”, I would finally see the light. That’s what I meant by “works-based”. (Did you ever wonder if saying “MAKE IT a great day” might be insulting to someone whose parents were just killed by a drunk driver or who just endured their fourth miscarriage or whose husband just left them for his tenth lover? Like what would they have to DO to MAKE IT a GREAT day?)
Regarding your provision of “formulas”, I apologize for assuming formulas when none were expressly stated. I tend to be really sensitive about anything that even seems like a formula such as “embracing immature believers + properly defining and standing against sin
Okay, I’m WAAAAAY too long-winded! Here’s the last part:
Regarding your provision of “formulas”, I apologize for assuming formulas when none were expressly stated. I tend to be really sensitive about anything that even seems like a formula such as “embracing immature believers + properly defining and standing against sin
Hmmm…I’ll try one more time:
Regarding your provision of “formulas”, I apologize for assuming formulas when none were expressly stated. I tend to be really sensitive about anything that even seems like a formula such as “embracing immature believers + properly defining and standing against sin
Last try for now…
Regarding your provision of “formulas”, I apologize for assuming formulas when none were expressly stated. I tend to be really sensitive about anything that even seems like a formula such as “embracing immature believers + properly defining and standing against sin
Last try for now…
Regarding your provision of “formulas”, I apologize for assuming formulas when none were expressly stated. I tend to be really sensitive about anything that even seems like a formula such as “embracing immature believers + properly defining and standing against sin yields repentance AND = right vertical relationships” In my experience, sometimes that formula “works” and sometimes it doesn’t.
I’m intrigued by your comment that convictions are not sins. I know that statement is true. Convictions are not sins. For example, I have friends whose convictions tell them not to drink alcohol, not to sleep in the same hotel room or tent with a friend of the opposite sex or to even be together alone with a date after midnight, and not to mow their lawn on Sundays. Is drinking a sin? Is sleeping with someone without sexual activity a sin? Is mowing my grass or shopping on Sunday a sin? What about bowing your head as a Buddhist prayer is chanted or encouraging your child to get the tattoos and body piercings he wants? What about not tithing because we are no longer under the old law? Are these sins or not? Whether right or wrong, I find most people define sin in terms of their own personal convictions and insights from God.
Okay the bending to Biblical behavior question–here are some examples: a practicing homosexual (believer) who wants to bring her partner (non-believer) to church services. Or the practicing homosexual couple (believers) who want to become members of your church? Or your lawncare guy (believer) who asks you to pay them in cash so they don’t “have to” pay taxes on that portion. Or a co-worker (believer) who is having a sexual affair with another co-worker (non-believer) and says that God allowed that because it is strengthening their marriage. Or a young person (believer) who parties on Friday nights at local clubs and tells you all about it at church on Sunday morning. Or a friend (believer) who no longer attends church. And even writing (believer) and (non-believer) kind of makes my stomach turn–because only God knows a person’s heart. Should the label matter as to how we love them or share with them?
Regarding Galatians 6, how do you correlate that with Romans 14?
It’s interesting that many churches follow 1 Corinthians 5 to the letter as it relates to
the sexually immoral, but does not apply the same standard to swindlers, idolaters, and the greedy. If I take this passage to its extreme I would have to say churches that conduct AA meetings, host sex addiction recovery groups, and promote prosperity- gospel teachings are all being disobedient to God.
I completely agree with you that confrontation is not a bad thing and that true love at times must confront hurtful, disrespectful, and sinful behavior. My concern is that people in positions of leadership often initiate confrontation based on personal convictions, preferences, and (sorry!) formulas rather than on God’s truth and with the leading of the Holy Spirit.
I hope you enjoyed your movie. :^)
It has been interesting reading the back-and-forth with fishon and ttm. I always think it’s great to see a healthy discussion with mutual respect.
I think we walk a really thin line between being judgmental OR confronting sin in a loving and constructive way. And to add to it, with people interpreting the Bible so differently, “sins” are interpreted differently as well.
I agree, ttm, that society tends to pick and choose which sins to “enforce”, like the sexual ones over gluttony, etc.
“Isn’t it ironic we find it a bit difficult to discuss the subject of judgment without judging each other, especially when alcohol is referenced?” he asked as he grabbed another Corona.
ttm,
Good to hear back from you. The movie, ah, just a sentimental love story. Funny how the older I get the more I like um. I hope you get back to MN soon. Wow, what an extreme–FLA–MN.
I will not answer everything this evening, but will spend a few minutes in reply to some that you asked and said.
You write: Underlying the worship, the sermons, the Sunday School lessons, and the atmosphere was this idea that if we just prayed enough, served enough, believed enough, and gave enough God would iron everything out and we would be happy.
——I know that is taught, but I don’t teach it. And I don’t believe that the Bible teaches that either. I do believe that God does teach us that HIS “joy and peace” is available to His Children, but not necessarily happiness. Happiness depends on circumstances. God’s joy and peace depends on Him. I could say so much more about how I teach on the subject, but will refrain from preaching. I will say this, I love the song by Casting Crowns, “Praise You In The Storm.” Though the Lord can stop the storm, many times He does not. But I teach my folks to praise Him and He will help guide you through the storm. Simplistic, maybe–effective, yes.
I am with you on the tithing thing. Now don’t hear me to say I am against tithing, I am not against it. In fact, I go further–it is all His. But tithing is not a guarantee of finanical enrichment. I have this saying in the bulletin every week. “God wants us to have wealth. We must be very careful not to settle for money.” –Max Anders.
Oh I welcome any questions and am not intimidated by disagreements with me. Beings we are one of two Protestant churches in town, we have several from differenct denoms. I run my SS class as a descussion, so it gets pretty lively from time to time. I do go to the scriptures as much as possible, but there are issues that are somewhat gray, so opinions never change. Hey, sometimes I dont’ even agree with my own self.
You asked: (Did you ever wonder if saying “MAKE IT a great day†might be insulting to someone whose parents were just killed by a drunk driver or who just endured their fourth miscarriage or whose husband just left them for his tenth lover? Like what would they have to DO to MAKE IT a GREAT day?)
——No, at least not to the depth that your hypotheticals go. And they are real hypotheticals, that’s for sure. I will respond this way. I would never say such a thing to someone I knew to be going through what you discribed above. I am sure that many would be hurt, if not insulted if I said such a thing to them and they knew I knew that they were enduring terrible pain and lose. However, in the setting and context that I say it, I do not believe that anyone of my congregation would be insulted. And I don’t believe that a stanger would be, because they would probably understand that I don’t know the pain and hurt they are going through, and most reseasonable people would understand a preacher saying that in the setting and context I do it in. Could someone be insulted, I suppose so–but then, much of what I preach insults people who are not believers. I would never, however, purposely hurt anyone, and if I did I would try and make it right.
I will stop for now, but will responed to the rest of your post tomorrow.
fishon
I like this phrase by the mystic Rumi…
“Out beyond ideas of wrong doing and right doing, there is a field. I’ll meet you there.”
ttm, thanks for making me think
good comments here..
Mimou, you’re welcome.
I’m thankful to naked pastor for giving us all a place to converse–despite the miles.
All it comes down to is pride. All of the judement and derision is created by people achieving what they set out to do, and then want everyone else to know that they have achieved it. The ones that do it are guilty of pride.