These handsome devils are my son, Jesse, on your left, and Murray on your right. Murray turned 19 yesterday. He’s legal drinking age now. We love Murray. He comes from a broken home. He’s at our house a lot. I’ll wake up in the morning and discover Murray sleeping in our spare room. He likes it here. We like him here. We had a huge meal of grilled burgers and my mom’s potato salad, which totally rocks. We had some beers too. Then we lit him a cake and gave him presents: McDonalds’ certificates, shirts, movie money, and a huge bottle of Colt 45… “strong beer”. He laughed and laughed because he likes to drink this once in a while. Then we watched A Mighty Heart. It was a happy evening.
I just don’t know how to “do” church anymore. In fact, I don’t want to do church anymore! I’m done. I’m not done with my friends, the people I am among, the people who call me their pastor. I’m not done with Jesse’s non-church-going friends who call me “pastor dave” as a joke. I’m not done with Casile’s friends who talk with us about their love lives. I’m not done with them. I’m so into them it hurts.
But I’m done with doing church. You don’t do church. If you’re doing church, then you’re not doing church. And I’m not trying to be Zen. This isn’t a koan. It is fact. You can’t do church anymore than you can do family. Can you imagine if I woke up Saturday morning and announced to Lisa and the kids, “Okay, we’re going to do family today!” They’d think I’d finally lost it. They’d groan and complain and hate us for forcing them to play a part in a play they have no interest in. But what if I got up Saturday morning, like we sometimes do, and we started the fresh ground coffee, started grilling the bacon and mixing the blueberry pancakes? What if we set it all on the table and just sat down to eat when it was ready? What if we then decided to go to the mall to spend some of the money they’d made that week on cds and clothes? Then we happened to notice that there was a movie playing at the theater, so we took it in. Then we went back home and everyone dispersed and went their own way to maybe reconnect if we’re lucky just before we go to bed? What if that happened? We weren’t doing family at all. Not even subversively!
Or how about another Saturday where I get up and paint, Lisa gets up and goes for a walk with a friend, the kids sleep in until 2pm, and we might pass each other at supper time, or maybe not. At the end of the day we are what we are. This is what is real.
This is how I see community. We get together and be what we already are without trying or pretending or even planning. Sometimes it is ideal. Sometimes it sucks so hard you die of boredom. I’ve seen this over and over again. I mean, if Lisa and I planned an ideal Saturday like I mentioned above, it just wouldn’t happen, mainly because the kids wouldn’t be the least bit interested in fulfilling our plans for them. If it happens, great! If not, whatever! Maybe another time. Maybe not. But we’re still a family. I just refuse to “do” it.
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David Hayward is an artist trapped in a pastor's body, stripping to the essential.
Absolutely. At our house, if you tried to schedule a “family” thing, it would be considered punishment…but if it happens spontaneously, everyone’s cool with it.
We just rented “A Mighty Heart” but haven’t seen it yet. How did everyone at your house like it?
Dave, back when I was a believer, I remember remarking to someone as I was “witnessing” to them, that the only thing that will matter in a hundred years is what they do with Jesus now.
No, I was wrong. The only thing that will matter, ever, is what you do with those close to you, at this moment, and the next, and the next.
Keep doing what you are doing David, please. Make adjustments as you feel the need, but just keep doing.
bob
Wow — this is really similar to a thought I posted on my site about the whole nature of preaching, and how when you make it a regular scheduled event, it misses the point. The NT speaks of preaching the same way it speaks of prophecy, and the notion of a weekly scheduled prophecy just rolls off the tongue all wrong.
I had the opportunity to preach a sermon in my pastor’s absence, and afterwards, I realized that I didn’t really enjoy doing it; there wasn’t anything I said in the sermon that I wouldn’t have rather have said over dinner, and in fact — I would *rather* have done it over dinner, just talking with people that I cared about and wanted to encourage.
When I read some of your posts, I think “Dave must be having a shitty day or just slowly losing his mind”. But with other posts, I think “Dave has deep insight (not to mention the balls to write this stuff on his blog) and is leading the church in a new way”. This post confirms that insight, balls and leadership wins today (at least in my thinking).
Maybe if some church leaders dropped even a bit of the bullshit (shame, guilt, manipulation, control, facades, performance and so on) and adopted your thought “But I’m done with doing church”…and possibly “But I’m done with doing leadership”, people might actually respond and do likewise.
But, isn’t real life more than a lazy Saturday? Isn’t real life going to work during the week to buy the pancake mix and the paint you use on Saturday? Isn’t real life taking time away from what you might want to do in order to take your son to band practice because that brings joy to him? Isn’t a community about working together for the benefit of others in the community and toward a common goal? Isn’t church about Christ? About worshipping and praising Him and being open to the leading of His Spirit. Sure, people have agendas and biases. But that is what God’s church is about; taking radically different people and making them one in Christ. The same thing happens in a marriage….two become one. Like you say, we don’t “do” marriage, we “live” as one. That doesn’t mean that they will always agree and it doesn’t mean that each won’t bring their own agenda to the table, but it does mean that they will learn how to live in harmony if, out of love, they place the needs of others before their own. Our focus shouldn’t be on “doing church,” it should be on Christ and His life working through us. It is faith in Christ having it’s expression in the love we show to others.
It’s a direct lift from the world around us: it’s just been church -i-ized.
What we have together is so normal, it’s just family.
Stop trying to impress God, you don’t have to be afraid of him.
Love,
Sarah
This is how I see the church at 50AD. With no rules yet. Everyone just getting together. No New Testament Bible yet. Just getting together a community praising God, sharing troubles, giving comfort or support, and truly being part of a fellowship. Very few rules. And the rules that exist protect the liberty of those there. Please do not become too successful with this church. Because then I would have to become involved and I do NOT want to live in Canada again. (OK it was the USA, but 70 miles from the Canadian border. about 120 miles south of Winnipeg.)
I like this post, Dave. I’m SO in the same headspace. Don’t know what to think of it all…church, I mean. Like you, I DO love the people though.
I’m stunned by the brilliance and eloquence and “simplicity” of this one.
Stunned…
speechless…
(a rare occurence indeed!)
You don’t DO church, you ARE church. Isn’t that right, Pastor Dave?
Then again, families DO things together, sometimes planned and scheduled (meals) and sometimes not (going to the mall or throwing socks at each other or…what, you don’t do that?)
i love this david… it’s where i’ve been for a long time now. right in that place that you have put into words beautifully. thanks mate.
If I didn’t know better, I would swear you’d been sitting in on a couple of the conversations I’ve had with friends the past week or so…you have quoted me almost verbatim in several sentences.
I’m done, too. Not “done” with being the church, because we ARE the church…but I’m done with the “DOING” church B/S. I’m done with the Sunday morning thing that we like to call “worship service”. I’m done with the whole theater production atmosphere.
But I’m NOT done with loving God and loving people…and living in true community with them–it’s there that I’m beginning to really understand the heart of God.
Unbelievable. What “Bride of Christ” are you guys talking about?
I suspect some of you have more problems than with a church.
There are the “luke-warmers”, “pew-sitters,” “customers,” and “lego-Christians,” and then the real deal. Which are you?
My goodness, what would some of you do if you had an eighth of the persecution that the apostle Paul had? And some of it came from within the Body of Christ.
And by the way, Sarah, it is adviseable to have a little fear of the Lord. It just might have saved Ananias and Sapphira from death at the hands of God you say not to be aftaid of. “Great FEAR [caps mine] seized the whole church….” Hum, don’t you think God knew what would happen with the church when He killed Ananias and Sapphira?
We live in a broken World. You can run, but you can’t hide. You can make your little families, but it will last but a short while–you see, you are part of the brokenness–don’t run away–try to fix what you can.
Toughen up.
fishon
Hi David,
At long last, you sound as if you are church. It looks a lot like everyday living, doesn’t it….:-)
thanks for sharing
Pro 16:25 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, But the end thereof are the ways of death.
Having read the blog and the first 15 comments you have to conclude that there are people who are your fans and there are snipers. I saw the bullet from that Steve Thomas guy just whiz past your ear. Just lucky you had ducked to give thanks to of God for his relentless pursuit of you.
When you know Gods love for a so undeserving you, it is only natural to express it to others. And so you have fulfilled his commands in Deuteronomy to “be joyful at your feast—you, your sons and daughters,….the aliens, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns” and in James who says that “religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world”
You are just a naturally spiritual guy and your Dad is so proud of you.
You know Dave, I don’t agree with everything you write, but I come to your blog everyday. It’s very probing fella! haha
I’m going through a very similar thing in my spirit about the church. “Living Life together”. But I also just don’t think that you can throw out other aspects of corporate worship and things like strategic evangelism (I’m not saying you’re advocating this BTW).
I also don’t think it’s simply a “balance” thing… it’s a full on both. I think that living life together is about full-on worship together, full on relationship, full on evangelism, full on strategic prayer and evangelism. I think that without it, it’s as handicapping to “the church” as the flawed “doing church” was and is.
Living life does take work and intention but it happens whether you have “vision” or not. It’s not removed from the equation where there is vision and evangelistic strategy. In my experience, far from it, when you’re living as a family who loves each and is invested in each other’s well-being.
Blessing Dave… would be great to meet up one day…
we will
Dena G said:
“But I’m NOT done with loving God and loving people…and living in true community with them–it’s there that I’m beginning to really understand the heart of God.”
Don’t you see that you can remove your god from that equation and you would enjoy those people all the more? People are just people, and “understanding the heart of God” is just meaningless twaddle that gets in the way. Try understanding the hearts of those people, and give credit where it’s due – to people!
@fishon: unintelligible gibberish. What on earth are you talking about?
If we are done with doing then lets start being and from our being will come some doing
marcus–agreed!
“I just don’t know how to “do†church anymore. In fact, I don’t want to do church anymore!” (NP)
Agreed – it gets so tedious being somebody (all the time). I guess I opt for reality also – I take my faith and apply it in my everyday life and that sufiices me. I don’t have all the answers but I do have a great idea about where to go with life (and I am happy with that). If my life effects others around me – then awesome – but I just want to live it. Real life and church talk – I am not sure how well they truly mix – but real life and living according to our value systems – now that’s relevant. Dave, love the stuff your writing.
Also fishon – I get 1/8th the persecution that Paul gets – guess from who? You guessed it – people decalring to be my brothers in this faith and who claim to ‘love God and me’ – yet those same people are mean and nasty at times with their judging self righteous accusations – they make me laugh though – they perpetuate that old hatred that also came with the Reformation.
Amen @ Marcus!
societyvs,
To bad we could not sit down and talk. You would not think me so self-righteous, I think. You see, I am God’s weakest link in His kingdom, and I know it.
I would ask you to point out what I said the causes you to label me self-righteous? Where was I “mean and nasty?”
By the way, I notice you didn’t answer any of my questions. Of course you don’t have to.
Societyvs, would you answer me this. I am truely interested. What do you mean: “I just don’t know how to “do†church anymore.” What do you mean, “do church?”
What do you mean: “…it gets so tedious being somebody (all the time)”?
It seems as if you are saying that being part of the church inhibits your ability to just live your life? Have I misunderstood what you are saying? If not, how does the church inhibit you ability to live your life?
You say you get persecution that paul gets? Again, you don’t have to answer, but what kind might that be?
Hey, I am really interested in your answers. And I tell you what–if you answer I WILL NOT respond to them unless you tell me I can. I am interested in hearing from you, because, to tell you the truth, I do not relate to the problems some of you seem to have with church.
fishon
Fishon i have no problem with you whatsoever – but I’ll explain.
“I would ask you to point out what I said the causes you to label me self-righteous?” (Fishon)
I never labelled you self-righteous – I made a generic point about having this done to me in the past regarding ‘persecution’. It was not directed at you – sorry if it came off that way.
“I notice you didn’t answer any of my questions” (Fishon)
I will answer your questions and you can answer mine – cool.
“What “Bride of Christ†are you guys talking about?” *Fishon
Is there more than one out there? I think when we refer to that term we mean church (obviously) but we use it generically to refer to our experiences with church(es).
“There are the “luke-warmersâ€, “pew-sitters,†“customers,†and “lego-Christians,†and then the real deal. Which are you?” *Fishon
Well honestly Fishon – those are all made-up categories to try fit people into – and I think it’s an honest try but we humans don’t fit into boxes that easily. We are all the ‘real deal’ on some level – we are all different with unique experiences with God.
“what would some of you do if you had an 1/8th of the persecution that the apostle Paul had”" *Fishon
Ask why first? But likely handle it as I do with everything else in life – and you are making an assumption that none of us get persecuted for our faith – it’s a good assumption – but can be generically wrong also.
“don’t you think God knew what would happen with the church when He killed Ananias and Sapphira?” *Fishon
I wonder if He is still this way? Should I be scared of God then? Oh man, this actually scares me to even think of going to church – what if He kills me for holding back on my offering? Thanks Fishon – now I am scared of God or is this the normal level of fear to have? You tell me – how do you deal with the fear?
“What do you mean, “do church?†(Fishon)
Well you know – play along as if you agree with all that is being said while inside you know this is damn charade – and none of this is lining up anymore – actually it gets contradictory. The you hate living in fear and hate the fact you can’t relate with people in their language anymore – basically you find out someone is lying here and sure isn’t you – becuase you just followed all the teachers taught you.
“If not, how does the church inhibit you ability to live your life?” (Fishon)
It undermines you personal authority to make decisions – it second guesses you and judges you for that type of stuff. Also you live by some secret code of ethics that asks us to avoid people not like us and cut ourselves off from the world around us – basically losing touch with reality. It is restriciting to a fault more or less.
“Again, you don’t have to answer, but what kind might that be?” (Fishon)
Recently i have been personally attacked by a blogger questioning my faith to nothingness, I lost 2 blogger friends because I like Halloween and support gay rights, my family is practically hated in the Christian community (in my city) for having the balls to stand up and be heard and not ‘tow the line’, one brother spent a night in jail for a false accusation, another was told he was going to hell for questioning a man of God and that God cursed him and put him in a wheechair, and the list can continue on – this saga is far from finished.
Feel free to reply back.
societyvs,
Wow. A quick reply. And some great stuff.
I hope to get back to you this afternoon, but I need to finish up my sermon for Sunday. I have some guys coming in to go Steelhead fishing tomorrow, so I must be finished by then.
If I can’t get back today, I will try and make it Sunday afternoon. I am hoping that this particular discussion is not pulled down before we can communicate more on the matter.
Listen, I really want to discuss this stuff with you.
I end every service with this:
“Don’t have a good week——–MAKE IT a great week.”
Societyvs, MAKE IT a great day.
fishon
Some of the churches I read about here just sound like awful, judgmental places to be. I would urge people to visit other types of churches to see what’s going on out there, because I have had very little of this type of experience, and have gone to various churches my entire life. This is certainly not to say none of the ones I have been to have any problems. They all do. But I have not come across the mean spiritedness and intentional unkind acts that a lot of you have.
As I have said before, what saddens me the most is I feel a lot of people blame and renounce God for the acts of humans. Not only do they decide not to “do” church, but not to have God in their lives as a result. I can understand the church issues, but I hope more people can make the important distinction between the two.
I know most of you that post here can and do make that distinction. I am not necessarily referring to posters here.
Fishon – yuo can come and meet me at my site if you want to post – either way – http://societyvs.blogspot.com/
David…my long but never lost or forgotten dear friend.
Looking at this profile of your son just blows me away. It’s like sitting in your teenage home in Newmarket again and looking at you. Absolutely amazing what genetics and DNA does.
Knowing you and Lisa from way back…knowing a little bit of your DNA from the past I’m sure that those three precious kids are just that…precious.
Hello to your dear friend and wife Lisa.
Good post! I agree. It’s much easier said than done but worth the effort!
I hear you saying that you will no longer be “cruise director.” Applause!