To require people to live according to scripture creates admirable human beings, but it does not create free human beings. To insist that people live by the Bible appears to advance the development of the human being, but it is really just a religious form of bondage. It is not only unhelpful but dangerous to say that the Bible should be our guide. When we use the word “guide”, we think of a manual or instruction booklet. This approach to the human being only creates fear of failure and punishment and leads to arrogance if one succeeds or condemnation if one fails to live up to the instructions.
Freedom is the healthiest condition of the mind and heart, and it is the happiest place of humanity. If you read the scriptures, they must inform that reality of freedom and testify to our momentary liberation. Somehow, scripture must act like a fertilizer that percolates our minds and hearts with the freedom that the Spirit brings. The bible is not to be used as an instruction booklet on how to follow the proper steps to salvation. It is like a document from a free land that announces to us that our bonds have been broken and we are free indeed.
The sudden attention I received from Slice of Laodicea. and Apprising Ministries a couple of weeks ago didn’t bother me because they are only what all religion is, including Christianity, except on steroids. They are like many people I already know, including myself at times, only ramped up. They are only higher-paying passengers on a higher deck of the same sinking ship. But even though that kind of religion and Christianity produces exceptional people, the whole enterprise is nevertheless misdirected and doomed. We are not free, but enslaved under our traditions and scriptures and religious guidelines. There is a freedom that is presently available to us all right now, but the carnage that would be left of our religious lives and selves is just too horrible to imagine, and we shrink back from the freedom that is rightfully ours.
The fine art photograph is the creation of my friend Mark Hemmings, and is from his mannequin series.
Contributions to nakedpastor are greatly appreciated.
David Hayward is a pastor artistically stripping to the essential.
nakedpastor
i think you raise a very important point. we “Christians” tend to think the Scriptures are a handbook or manual. but this isnt what they are intended to be.
however, i do believe there is much in the Scriptures that are a guide for how we are to live. so if we take everything exactly as it is handed down to us (doctrinally) then we use it like a manual. but if we question it and doubt it and learn it and love it, not as a god, but as a tool sent by God, then i think we will stay much more in line with God’s Way.
peter
Reminds me of what John Wimber would say – “the bible is the menu, not the meal.”
Well written — you did a great job of putting into words exactly what I have been thinking. To me the bible is not a “rule book” but a record of God’s unique and dynamic working with individual real live human beings.
Oh yea, a rudderless ship. And your post is a rule book against rules. Authoritative musings that will transform lives. Thanks for the lifeline of hope to all the hopeless.
So, I may be tracking with you and I may not be. You really didn’t explain to me what it is that brings freedom. I can think of numerous verses that talk about obedience to Scripture bringing true freedom. Is this a first post in a series?
If we are not required to live our lives according to the scriptures what pray tell should we use? “How can a young man keep his way pure? By keeping it according to your word. Psalm 119. Jude warned of “Christian Teachers” like you, Mr Hayward, “For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. Mr Hayward you are an apostate and lust after the things of this world. You sir, are on the sinking ship. May God have mercy on the sheep you are leading astray.
I think it’s very easy to forget that the Bible is a book written for human beings, none of whom are exactly the same in circumstance, journey, thought or understanding. Not everything in it will be applicable for every person at every time. Some will specifically speak into our lives, some will help us to understand humanity and God, and some will seem like dry words. The important thing is that it’s dynamic. A bit like a three dimensional sculpture, it looks different from different angles, and mostly seems to have something pointing directly at me no matter where I stand. And of course everybody will interpret it differently. I know, the way my brain works is sometimes bizarre, but it makes sense to me.
Oh, and if you’re trying to raise the ire of Slice again, telling them we shouldn’t live by the Bible will probably achieve your aim admirably.
Man, you have a lot of people that pat you on the back. I think that it is a balance. The bible is needed to helpp you get to know God. He does give me things from it that I base my life on. But I do not get upset at myself when I don’t live up to those things. I just try again. I think guide is a fine word to choose. As in guidelines. They are a framework, or plans with which to build your God based life. But, if you are familiar with construction at all. There are a lot of thing that have to be just worked out, because the plans did not cover those points. So we need to understand, that we have the freedom to do what we feel necessary to serve God. And not to get worried if we go outside of the guidelines. God has accepted some true scoundrels as his chosen. We seem to forget that over time.
[quote]If we are not required to live our lives according to the scriptures what pray tell should we use? “How can a young man keep his way pure? By keeping it according to your word. Psalm 119. Jude warned of “Christian Teachers†like you, Mr Hayward, “For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. Mr Hayward you are an apostate and lust after the things of this world. You sir, are on the sinking ship. May God have mercy on the sheep you are leading astray.[/quote]
My friend there is a vast difference between trying to live according to God’s word and requiring it for salvation. When you throw out “apostate” and “leading astray” it really indicates that you require such a high standard that you are in bondage. The slightest variation from your flavor of Christian is labeled apostate. When one has such a narrow view it really becomes difficult to understand the freedom we have in Christ. Not freedom to sin but freedom from sin. So quick to throw out scripture that condemns but yet miss the scripture that proclaims the freedom that we do have in Christ.
Galatians 2:4This matter arose because some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves.
Please don’t try to demand that we need to be circumcised to be acceptable to God.
So what is there, like 613 or so commandments in the Old Testament. I don’t know about you, but I probably couldn’t name 30 of them. That’s where the freedom is. When we love God and love others, we are living those laws (rules). I worship in a very traditional church and I am kind of the black sheep. There is freedom in that as well. One never knows what to expect from me. We can have unity and diversity at the same time. It is possible.
Greetings from a steerage passenger who is free to love it down here!!
Ok, I’ll post my comments without reading the others.
I am hoping you poory chose some words. For example:
The bible is not to be used as an instruction booklet on how to follow the proper steps to salvation.
Surely you do not mean this. If so, then what are the steps to salvation and how do you find them?
Freedom is the healthiest condition of the mind and heart, and it is the happiest place of humanity. If you read the scriptures, they must inform that reality of freedom and testify to our momentary liberation. Somehow, scripture must act like a fertilizer that percolates our minds and hearts with the freedom that the Spirit brings.
This I agree with. But only the freedom found in Christ. Which I can only get from following the steps to salvation in the scriptures.
What i THINK and HOPE you are saying is that we get way too legalistic about OUR particular version of Christianity being the only correctone. This I can agree with. But I wouldnt go so far as to say that anything goes in the freedom since.
Paul said, “What then, shall we go on sinning? God forbid!” He also made it clear that when we do sin we have an advocate with the Father. THANK GOD! But we should not use our liberty in Christ to offend Christ. There are some things that are still sin. Even under the new covenant.
sorry for the typos. i got all excited!
davidbmc – Can I pushback on this one?
The bible is not to be used as an instruction booklet on how to follow the proper steps to salvation.
Surely you do not mean this. If so, then what are the steps to salvation and how do you find them?
For me in reading this post, I think the problem with with “proper steps” and not with “how to find salvation”. The Bible is full of the freedom, but it’s hard to nail down “the proper steps” in more than a general head-this-general-direction-and-let-God’s-grace-do-it sort of way. I think you answered it later on with the reference to legalism, and I think that’s where we put restrictions on the text to work only in certain conditional ways.
LOL !! Higher paying passengers on the deck of the same sinking ship. (mouth drops open)….could this possibly all boil down to ..”I don’t have any answers, just questions…it’s all meaningless..and I’m STILL AFRAID TO DIE”…….
If that is what your faith in Christ and walking with God has been deduced to….a sinking ship…I’d say you may be clinically depressed. Let’s go back to your childhood…sorry….I’m just suprised that now you’re telling me GOD’s WORD is not the instruction on how to live….I tried MY VERSION of how to live and had one sorry, lousy, miserable, messed up, lonely life. Now I’m READING THE INSTRUCTION BOOK (note I said…Book..the Bible….not every book written by man nor every movie to be popped out of Hollywood for me to find some esoteric spiritual meaning imbedded within). I’m reading GOD’s WORD….and my life is better spiritually than it has ever been. I have more peace and purpose and the Lord is doing a real work in me concering anger and impatience. That did not come from a list of rules but by WALKING WITH GOD. It is by His SPirit…but NO ONE knows about the Holy SPirit unless they crack open a BIBLE. Freedom comes from getting on the narrow road. LOL…I’m sure you’ll disagree but it’s the truth. Jesus even said the broad road (of the world and all it’s vices and “freedoms”) leads you to destruction. How much of the world is in you? Legalism is thrown about by people who mock those who follow hard after God…the narrow road I’m on has brought me joy, peace, contentment, more patience and self-control. But it has also brought me to “the cross”..where I end up dying…flesh is consumed on the altar of fire to walk this road…it’s painful , yes…but there is great joy in the pain….for the joy set before Him…He endured the cross. I love Jesus more than I did when i surrendered to Him 15 years ago. I am much different as well. More like Him…not perfect…but dying daily.
I think it’s important to properly define and realize what freedom is given to the Christian.
We are ‘made free’ by the life that comes from God through Christ to become like Christ (that’s why His followers were called ‘christians’ in the first place).
The book of Acts really teaches us that it’s all too easy – even with all the gifts of grace we have received – for the Christian community to almost entirely fall our of step with that freedom and virtually abandon the message of life (Paul talks in Galatians about how he stood alone for the Gospel). The problem is still the same – there are all manner of teachings abroad that essentially disconnect the believer from their true freedom in God’s redemption and their role as ’slaves’ of Jesus Christ to love each other and the community around them. When scripture is used to authorize a lifestyle that is inherently legalistic, it does so at the cost of dividing the believer from Christ (Colossians 2). The issue here is really the same as the one which existed in Jesus’ day – we can have plenty of religion (the dos and dont’s of the Pharisees) but what is really needed to be made evident is the life that comes from God through His living word (and that is something much deeper than just the ‘letter of the law’).
We must equally refute ‘holiness’ which is a result of our determination or our ‘ladder climbing’ towards God. Salvation comes to us from above, and is not of ourselves, and it is in that life alone that we can truly grow and walk as our Lord and Saviour intends.
Howard.
T.J.
You took the words right out of my mouth. God’s Word is THE standard. I’m not in bondage as one person stated, I’m truly free. I tried it my way and I was miserable. Those who equate following the scriptures with Christian legalism have totally missed the point. Nowhere in the NT does it instruct believers to ignore God’s Word, it corrects those who argued that new believers had to become Jews before they became Christians. One person said he couldn’t name 30 of the Old Testament laws, I hope he can remember at least 10. Jesus summed up the law in 2 commandments. We do not however have the freedom to pick and chose what we feel like following or doing. If you want to know what God’s instructions are for life is read his Book, he promises to help us live the life by the power of the Holy Spirit. Those who are in bondage are those who waffle between the world and The Way. There is a way that seems right to man but in the end it brings death. I’m happy to be on the narrow path.
okay, i’m reading back and trying to find where i said to “ignore God’s Word”. hm.
Newcenturion the tone of your last comment is a stark contrast with the one you posted yesterday. Welcome to the conversation.
Just for clarification I’ve reread David’s post several times I’ve yet to find where it says that he “ignores Gods word” as you’ve implied.
The trouble with this mode of communication is that the written word has imposed on it our filters, our experiences, our expectations, our traditions and our agendas. To often we misconstrue thoughts and ideas because of those filters. The same filters often get applied to our view of scripture. Or even my comments. Or yours. Let us agree to reason, question, search, and journey together. Let’s do it with honesty and vunerability as we all strive to the likeness of Christ.
We will all be better because of it; I assure of that.
Wow, this is great stuff Dave.
i think the Scripture is like a fertilizer, it enriches our knowledge of God, by showing us how He related with those found in it. Even in the OT where David broke sooo many laws God still called him friend. This gives incredible Hope. And the Grace brought into the picture when God gave us Jesus, again, incredible. i think the Bible is about relationship, letting us get to know God, not to make us feel condemned by Him, or make us follow a bunch of rules that the Bible even says didn’t work, that’s why Jesus had to die! If we would just love and let His grace flow though us, i think we might be starting to get the hang of what it means to hang with Him.
Hey NP, I think your use of the word ‘freedom’ takes some of us to “in those days there was no king in Israel so everyone did what was right in their own eyes.” And our knee jerk reaction is that freedom does not tend to lend itself to man reaching higher but lower.
My sense from your post is that you’re not talking about freedom from restraint (self-control, God-control, etc.) but freedom from the pressure imposed by ourselves and others to perform and pretend and to mask our true selves.
Unfortunately the Church has a rather poor record of responding to freedom by building systems, rules and structures to “help” us stay out of trouble.
I’ve got to agree with several comments on here that the choice of words and phrases was atrocious here. “The bible is not to be used as an instruction booklet on how to follow the proper steps to salvation. It is like a document from a free land that announces to us that our bonds have been broken and we are free indeed.”
The Bible clearly states “Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.” and “No other name was given by which man may be saved.” If that isn’t an instruction, giving the proper step to salvation, I can’t imagine what is!
If you meant to say that the Bible is not to be used as a textbook of how to live the right way SO THAT you will be saved, then you’re right. Following all the laws of the Bible won’t save us. Gal 3 – “IF a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would have come through the law.”
But the Bible does clearly give us guidance on how we should live.
Eph 4&5
“Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouth…”
“Get rid of bitterness, rage, anger, brawling, slander, malice…”
“Among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality or greed because these are improper for God’s holy people.”
I’m doing those from old memory, so forgive me if they aren’t word perfect.
“Be kind and compassionate to each other, forgiving each other…” ;^)
The Bible most definitely IS (among a great many other things) a guidebook on how we should live! We should not use the guide improperly, but that doesn’t stop it from being a guide. It is a great deal more than a guide, but that is one of its functions.
Speak out against abuses of using the Bible as a list of behaviors which are necessary to salvation! Don’t go so far as to say the Bible does not give us guidance to living to please God.
WebMonk,
Very well stated. You said what I was trying to say.
dm
Amazing post.
“This approach to the human being only creates fear of failure and punishment and leads to arrogance if one succeeds or condemnation if one fails to live up to the instructions.”
It appears to me that this statement sums up quite nicely the thesis of your post.
It also appears to me that some people find security in guidelines and structure while others (like myself) cringe under the idea of rules and rulebooks. I’ve gotten much benefit from reading, studying, and meditating on the word. I have found great freedom in the pages of scripture. But when I start to create a list of do’s and don’ts I become a slave to the law.
Unfortunately most of Christianity has designed the system in such a way that there is no alternative to following the list. Your a good christian if ___________ Your a bad christian if you don’t ____________. Before long we’re all doing mental check lists about how we measure up to the person next to us. And patting ourselves on the back because we’re not divorced, or a single parent, or a smoker, or a drinker, or struggling with porn, or an adulterer. The whole time the person who is struggling with any of those things dies under a mountain of guilt and shame. They don’t find grace in the church they find condemnation and judgement. If you tell me this never happens try not praying for a meal one time at a church function and see what happens.
David shares what’s on his mind and instead of giving him the benefit of the doubt we hammer him about word usage and phrasing. Maybe we do this because we’ve created a list of what a Pastor should say or how he should say it and anything short of that and we’re ready to pounce and correct the error. It becomes a self righteous game of “Whack a mole”. Before long no one feels safe to share what their feeling, thinking, struggling, or doubting about.
Fall back into line preacher man; that’s not the way we do it down here!
Chris-
Are you saying its ok for David to challenge the thinking of the church, but the church is not allowed to challende the thinking David?
I wont speak for him but I doubt he minds us examining his words. Thoughts are communicated by words. it is the only means we have to discern his message. The words must be chosen carefully.
May be he means exactly what he said. Maybe there is a nuance to what he is trying to say that I didnt pick up. That is why I was needing clarification. By asking if that is what he meant, i did give him the benefit of the doubt.
Webmonk makes a good point.
David, I think that I understand the point of your post but how you chose to say it seems unnecessarily provocative. It requires more fleshing out so as to avoid misunderstanding. That would be a mature and responsible approach.
In the interest of clarification then, was David in bondage when he said,
“Your word is a lamp to m feet and a light for my path”, and ” Your statutes are my heritage forever; they are the joy of my heart. My heart is set on keeping your decrees to the very end. I hate double minded men, but I love your law. You are my refuge and my shield; I have put my hope in your word. Away from me evildoers, that I may keep the commands of my God!”?
Let’s take another example.
In 2Corinthians 6, when Paul says that we are not to be yoked together with unbelievers, can we not see that as a principle or command that we are to consider as a guide in our relationships.?
Can’t one love the triune God and His revealed Word in such a way that one sees His holy principles, precepts and commands as His loving protection for His called out people? Is such a thankful attitude of a child towards the loving protection of his father one of bondage?
Please clarify yourself so as to not cause folks to either stumble or be unnecessarily provoked.
davidbmc,
I’m less concerned about the questioning and more about the tone. If you read my previous post I’m all for discourse. But I’m not for dogmatic statements about Christ and negative assumptions about ones relationship with Christ.
I think the quote I lifted from Davids post is what he was getting at (also not supposing to speak for him). Challenge his thinking, question his rationale but refrain from using phrases like Heretic, Apostate, etc… This does little to engender communication and growth.
Again referring to my previous posts we all view things through our own filters. I can read what David wrote and relate and understand. While others will need more conversation to fill in the gray areas. I don’t see anyone saying clarify for me; I see people saying you must of meant this because that’s the way it should be.
Davidbmc sans yourself asking for clarification.
I think it is interesting that everyone is talking about what nakedpastor said, clarifying his statements, and debating about what he really meant….while at the same time, no one has directly asked him what he meant.
Why not just ask?
NP….what did you mean?
“Please clarify yourself so as to not cause folks to either stumble or be unnecessarily provoked.”: impossible! however, let me try to clarify. living by “principles” is dead. it is not freedom. if i robotically use scripture as a course in etiquette, i might become an impressive christian, but empty of life and devoid of freedom. if the Spirit is here, I am free indeed, and my life becomes biblical in its own unique and transformative way.
Okay…here comes my stupid comment: “…scripture must act like a fertilizer…”
Are you saying the Bible is crap?
(…ducking and running…)
David! How dare you say that we are truly free!!
Go David. Go David. Go David.
Chris, Chris, Chris
I’m glad the tone of my last post meets with your approval and we can now converse.
nakedpastor
okay, i’m reading back and trying to find where i said to “ignore God’s Wordâ€. hm.
Okay You like tobacco, fine wine, liquor and erotic photography did I miss anything? Oh and your a minister of the gospel. In this post you have suggested “To require people to live according to scripture…does not create free human beings…it is really just a religious form of bondage… [And] the bible is not to be used as an instruction booklet on how to follow the proper steps to salvation”. (I guess we’re ‘ignoring’ 2 Tim 3:16) Okay the word “ignore” wasn’t in your post but umm….yeah I think it’s a pretty accurate summation of your view towards scripture.
I was in a small group last week and someone said, “The Bible is black and white. Regardless of what people might want it to be, it is not gray.”
I cringed (but maintained an appropriate “Sunday School” face for his comfort.)
He repeated the statement twenty minutes later, and I found myself biting my tongue and forcing myself to remain in the chair. Those kinds of statements from people are red flags to me–”Not safe, not safe: run for the hills! Legalism is just around the corner and toting a big machine gun! Run!”
For me, Scripture is sometimes very gray. I think it depends on what type of glasses you are wearing when you read it; I don’t think any of us–being human–have perfect vision. We all wear lenses which impact the message/words being transmitted from Omniscience to individual understanding.
Heather was reading my mind when she wrote her comment. I can especially relate to her phrase “it looks different from different angles…”
Newcenturion,
In your comments toward David, aren’t you ignoring scripture?
“Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to ITS rules: “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch?” These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on HUMAN COMMANDS AND TEACHINGS. Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their SELF-IMPOSED worship, their FALSE humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.” Colossians 2:20-23
How do your rules for Christians (i.e., no smoking, no drinking alcohol, no contact with “naked” art) fit in with the Biblical mandate to put to death the human “do’s and don’ts” and embrace the freedom Christ lavishes upon us?
Dave I will gladly sit down with you over a nice glass of Sharaz, smoke a Cohoba, and discuss the erotic aspects of the Sistine Chapel with you anytime. Because I recognize that “these” items have not replaced Christ in my life. I have not made them idols. And I refuse to elevate a man-made list of “do’s and don’ts” to the place of judge over me.
Wow — I’ve been reading these responses plus the comments on the Slice of Laodicea blog — a lot of people seem very angry — a sort of self righteous venomous anger — its kind of scary. It should be all about the two great commandments — loving God and loving others — it all stems from that.
In my opinion it takes more faith to live with the mystery, struggle to hold together all the opposites and seek to listen to the Holy Spirit for your own unique life’s circumstances than it does to simply quote chapter and text as if the Christian walk is a predictable black & white/cause & effect existence. There is a journey for each of us to walk… a struggle……a wrestling.
David, I think people are threatened by your transparency. One of my favorite quotes from Richard Rohr is “the real is in the actual”. You, my friend, are real. I think that reality ultimately will sift our theology.
Chris/TTM – you have certainly touched on something key here with regards to the nature of Christian righteousness. What is so needed is a manner of living that is deep and full in it’s humanity and it’s faith which thereby ‘bears the risk’ of real freedom. It is crucial for us to understand that the child of faith will not be harmed ‘if the body is clothed in secular dress, dwells in unconsecrated places, eats and drinks as others do, does not pray aloud, and neglects to do all those ‘religious’ things which some decree…one thing, and one thing only is necessary for us to know righteousness, life and freedom. That one thing is the Word of God – the gospel of Christ, which makes us free’ (Martin Luther on Freedom). Our living and our growth must stem from that living faith alone – It is that message that resides at the heart of the written word.
This was said above:
“Are you saying its ok for David to challenge the thinking of the church, but the church is not allowed to challenge the thinking David?”
Are you saying that David and the church are two seperate entities? Diversity and unity can and does occupy the same space at the same time. I don’t think that anyone holds a patent on truth. As Heather said so eloquently, it depends on which angle you look at it from.
And then in the same post:
“Thoughts are communicated by words. it is the only means we have to discern his message. The words must be chosen carefully“.
Couldn’t have said it better!
From ttm
How do your rules for Christians (i.e., no smoking, no drinking alcohol, no contact with “naked†art) fit in with the Biblical mandate to put to death the human “do’s and don’ts†and embrace the freedom Christ lavishes upon us?
Last post on this for me. First off I don’t make the rules as you refer to them here they can be found in the scriptures. Our freedom in Christ does not give us license to partake of everything we want to do. While some may have no problem with smoking, drinking or viewing pornography (it’s called erotic or naked art now a days) What about weaker brothers and sisters in Christ? Those who look at these activities as sinful? Would you prick their conscience for your freedom? That brothers and sisters is a sin.
1 Cor 9-13
9 But take care that this liberty of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak.
10For if someone sees you, who have knowledge, dining in an idol’s temple, will not his conscience, if he is weak, be strengthened to eat things sacrificed to idols?
11For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died.
12And so, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ.
13Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause my brother to stumble.
“Everything is permissible for me”—but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible for me”—but I will not be mastered by anything. 1Cor6:12
But among you there must not be even A HINT(emphasis mine and my response to erotic art) of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. Eph 5:3
I find it amazing that so many in the Church today want to establish their own ideas about righteousness and living for God. However, the Lord has already established those things in the Bible, and they do not change, not even for our anti-Christ culture and the spirit of demonic rebellion sweeping through the Church in our day.
Jesus said, “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments†(John 14:15 NAU). One can fairly assess that if one has no desire or intent to obey the word of God that one does not love God, except the love one has for the god one has created in one’s own vain imagination.
John 8:31-32 says, So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free” (NAU). As a former drug and alcohol abuser I can tell you that people who are really free are those who have submitted themselves to God and His Word.
Notice that these are the words of Jesus. If we do not obey Him, we are lying about loving Him. He is the Truth and tells the Truth always—we do not. Galatians 6:7 says, “Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap†(NAU).
Real freedom comes in being a servant (slave) of Jesus Christ (Romans 6). When we submit ourselves to Him, then the devil must flee (James 4:7).
Romans 10:3 reveals that much of the Church world today has the same problem as the nation of Israel—Paul’s countrymen in the natural sense. Paul says, “For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God†(NAU).
The last thing I want to see is anyone lost, but rejecting the authority of the Word of God—the Bible—and doing you own thing in the Lord’s name is a sure recipe for spiritual shipwreck and eternal destruction.
“Jesus said, “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments†(John 14:15 NAU). One can fairly assess that if one has no desire or intent to obey the word of God that one does not love God, except the love one has for the god one has created in one’s own vain imagination.” – the other way to look at this one verse, Jess, is as a promise instead of a command. “If you love Me” – if you really love Me, not some fake me or someone else’s idea of Me – “then you’ll keep My commands” – you’ll find yourself obedient to live a life that honors Me in loving God and loving others. It’s not “obey Me to prove your love”, but instead “let Me prove your love by grace-ing you to obedience”. Something along those lines.
David, you said, “living by “principles†is dead. it is not freedom. if i robotically use scripture as a course in etiquette, i might become an impressive christian, but empty of life and devoid of freedom. if the Spirit is here, I am free indeed, and my life becomes biblical in its own unique and transformative way.”
Why do you equate living by principles with “robotically using scripture as a course in etiquite.”
That is a false dichotomy of your own creation. Why can’t someone live by the precepts given to us in Scripture in a Holy Spirit filled, free way? Do you think that the things that the Holy Spirit inspired the writers of the Scriptures to write did not intend them for you?
Also, can you answer the question I asked regarding David’s statements in the Psalms? Was he in bondage?
Also, repeating my question above,
“Can’t one love the triune God and His revealed Word in such a way that one sees His holy principles, precepts and commands as His loving protection for His called out people? Is such a thankful attitude of a child towards the loving protection of his father one of bondage?”
I think that there might be three stages in the process: the initial bondage of works, the encounter with God’s mind-blowing Grace and then the new freedom to become part of a much bigger plan because, at this point, there’s nothing you want more.
My guess is that one needs to give up the initial righteousness at some point and just beg for God’s mercy. This is where the fun really begins.
“It’s not “obey Me to prove your loveâ€, but instead “let Me prove your love by grace-ing you to obedienceâ€.”
Rick,
I am interested how you got that out of the context or text of that passage. Take a look at the greek and let me know if the words or ideas that you added are there.
Sure, Jeff, but I don’t think I did what you think I did. “If you love me, you will obey my commands” – what did I add? I simply gave another perspective, looking at it as a promise instead of a proof. The greek backs it up, I think – the KJV didn’t have “you will” in it, but more recent translations have “you will keep”, even footnoted in NKJV. It’s a truth, but that doesn’t mean it has to be an additional command, does it?
Rick,
Sorry, I must have misunderstood your point.
The greek literally says, “If you love me the commandments my you will keep.” I think that the NASB and NIV both capture the conditional nature of the statement. I agree that it does not necessitate an interpretation where we are setting out to prove our love by keeping the commandments, thereby earning approval, but rather the obedience will result from a heartfelt love for Christ. However, such fruit is not optional. The conditional nature of the statement still carries the force that there is a requirement to obey the commandments. It certainly does not say, “If you love me, you are free from my commandments.” (I know that you were not saying that.)
Hi, Jeff – I think we’re missing each other in passing but just barely, like most of the conversations on this kind of topic. I think there is a conditional there – “if” – but I would rather the onus of the action be based in Christ’s empowering grace than in my less-than-stellar fleshly ability. Is it about how much I can do for Him, or is it about what He is doing in me? I hope I’m explaining it correctly, kind of reading it from the back to the front.
Hey Rick. Thanks for the clarification. I completely agree on your emphasis. John himself later says, “We love BECAUSE He first loved us.” So it goes, God loved us =>we love Him => we obey Him.
I was only emphasizing the other aspect of this which is that when I read John in aggregate (John 14:15, 22-23, 15:10, 1John 2:3-5, 3:22,24, 5:3, 2John 6) I sense that John parallels what we read in James. “You keep SAYING that you love me. If you really do love me, then you WILL obey my commandments.” Our faith in and love for Christ WILL manifest itself in obedience. I guess I sense words of warning in both John and James that should cause us to take note.
Are you comfortable with that?
I just ran across a poem from John Bunyan that I think David will like.
“Run, John, Run, the Law demands, it gives me neither feet nor hands; better news the Gospel brings it bids me fly, and gives me wings.â€