I heard a report today that an experimental survey was conducted in the USA. Over 300 children were given fast food of some type. The vast majority picked McDonald’s has having the best flavor. Get this: even if different food NOT from McD’s was in the wrapper, the kids still thought it was the best tasting. Which convinced the researchers that kids are victims of advertising. Because they are told that McDonald’s is the best, they believe it if it says so. Different food in the same wrapper tastes like the same food they hoped to expect.
Which got me thinking about what happened this last weekend between Slice of Laodicea, Apprising Church and me. It convinces me that we could use the same words and totally change the content of those words and we will still receive them. But if the new, different and even offensive content is wrapped in the recognizable and favored wrapper of words that we know and are familiar with, then we take it as the same traditional content. Just because we use the same old traditional words while spreading hate and fear, it doesn’t mean the content is good. If my hate and fear-mongering is wrapped in John 3:16, we are guilt-pressured into receiving it.
I’m not pointing fingers at anyone but myself and anyone who’s willing to stand with me to admit that we do not have a corner on the truth. Can we please admit that just because we own a bible and know the words that we can be miles away from knowing and speaking the truth? When will we realize that when we say we know something, we don’t know as we ought to know? Can we ever graduate to the place where we no longer need to search for him and seek the truth? As another religion rightly insists, if you meet the Buddha, kill him. Insert truth for Buddha everyone. Blessed are they who’s hearts are set on pilgrimage.
The fine art photograph is the creation of my friend Mark Hemmings.
Contributions to nakedpastor are greatly appreciated.
David Hayward is an artist trapped in a pastor's body, stripping to the essential.
“Can we ever graduate to the place where we no longer need to search for him and seek the truth? ”
Absolutely not, and how arrogant we are if we ever think we’ve gotten to that point.
Excellent post. Kind of made me want a McDonald’s double cheeseburger, though.
I stand with you; we do not have a corner on the truth.
Right on!
It is easy to become a pharisee of our days. Easy to become self righteous and point fingers to anyone else.
I stand with you.
very well said david, i’m glad you found the words to express it so plainly. humility is where grace can be found, and in the end it’s all about love.
I want to know truth.. my heart is definately on a pilgrimage..
I’m definitely with you here.
Its complicated because the proverbial wrapper in Christianity is very important – that is, the particular idiom of how we say what we say. I mean, a philosopher or scientist can talk about any of the things Christians talk bout without using the “wrapper” (transcendence, god, truth, love, etc.), which begs the question, why talk about these things through Christianity at all?
Personally, I think that the “wrapper” can potentially bring us to truth we might not find another way – but it is insane to assume that it does so without the most extraordinary effort, and arrogant to assume that it has already done so for me.
another profound post np. nicely reasoned and certainly reflects my experience. i’m a journeyer… a pretty mess of a journeyer at that. i find the truth to be an illusive thing.
a friend of mine who heads up frontier youth trust over here has recently been conducting some research with young people. one of the questions (my wife, Clare, was doing the information sifting so i got to see the answers) was a very open one, simply asking ‘where is god?’ my favourite answer was ‘behind the sofa.’ … sometimes it feels like that!
you don’t get a beer for this post, but i’ll get you a burger, fries and a soft drink of your choice.
‘barrenmind’… that’s a great pen name!
Some good thoughts, Dave.
But talk about handing some people ammunition…=)
Then again they could find something wrong with anything.
It’s the “ministry” of the perpetually offended.
thanks jon ,
my mind doesn’t have anything in it
so barren
NP writes: “Can we please admit that just because we own a bible and know the words that we can be miles away from knowing and speaking the truth?”
Hum, can we admit that there are some that just might understand the truth–just because you [generic you] can’t or ignore it?
Can we admit, some people just don’t want to acknowedge the truth?
Can we admit that some people build there own ‘lego’ Jesus because they DON’T LIKE the truth?
Jesus said, “If you love me you will obey my commands.” Now that truth is easy to understand.”
fishon
Wow. I just went to slice of laodicea or whatever they call themselves and am still in shock. I did not know that churches like that still existed, it was like stepping back into the middle ages. I left quickly before they could spot me and burn me as a witch or some such for wearing a short skirt in a built up area. So anyway I wanted to commend you for your grace and humility in responding to the frankly offensive and abusive accusations being hurled from those quarters. It’s an inspiration to see someone hold back from the mudslinging under such extreme provocation!
You obviously weren’t raised a Southern Baptist, Clare.
Things like this are one of the reasons I’m not Christian. Love God. Love your neighbor. Not a whole lot of wiggle room left there. You worry about the wrapper, you forget that it’s what’s inside that counts, though the wrapper is what’s important to most I’ve met.
I stand with you as well.
I, too, owned a Bible and knew the words for many years…and wrapped my legalism and fear/hate-mongering in a cloak woven of bits and pieces of random Scripture that suited my self-righteousness d’jour.
I’m now on the journey toward real truth…glad to be shed of that legalistic cloak and now clothed instead in grace and love (although that’s a difficult robe to wear at times, too).
“Which got me thinking about what happened this last weekend between Slice of Laodicea, Apprising Church and me.” (NP)
Slice of Laodicea – oh man is that site ever biased – they booted me for asking questions that did not line up with their conservative agenda. Since then – I have a tough time stomaching a single view they try to teach.
“Can we please admit that just because we own a bible and know the words that we can be miles away from knowing and speaking the truth?” (NP)
Agreed – interpretation is 1/2 the battle – and I have many doozies about things being mis-interpreted for church cred. Honestly, I had to drop so much doctrinal baggage to find the truth behind most of what I was taught in Conservative churches (and I am still casting off theologies that were biased).
“Can we ever graduate to the place where we no longer need to search for him and seek the truth?” (NP)
No…truth is not something that is ’static or set in stone’ – it is something we have to realize and ‘find’ (and that takes some sweet time and many revisions). Heck I just the other day finally got a new take on the idea of ‘two become one’ in Genesis, the gospels, and Paul – and that’s 14 years after the fact I first heard that scripture. We never get to the point we know it all – we need to be open enough to admit mistakes.
“When will we realize that when we say we know something, we don’t know as we ought to know?” Thank you for asking this question. It is one that far too few dare to ask. As I put it in my post today referencing your interactions with SoL, “Just because I disagree with you doesn’t make me stupid.â€
I really admire the grace with which you’ve handled this whole ordeal. Thank you for your example.
hmmm…
RE: …if you love me, you’ll obey my commands…
yeah. easy to understand.
Q:what were the commands of Jesus?
A:Love God, love your neighbor.
Love each other as I have loved you.
And then he unpacked it a bit more with talk about cheek turning, etc. but it’s all under those headings…
Yep.
And when people actually start trying to do that…what Jesus actually said to do…
that’s when you start experiencing a religious hatred one would never think possible at the hands of the very people who say they are the guardians of this Jesus.
Novel thought, eh?… to obey Jesus and really look at him as a model and then try to live it. So much for “being in rebellion to the Bible” blah, blah, blah, etc. etc. ad nauseum.
I’d rather much try to follow Jesus and obey him and his life.
Jesus is much easier to deal with if all he is is a ticket out of hell.
And if it’s only about people admitting their sinfulness and then gutting it out until we go to heaven, then I suspect that some people just want to see people be humiliated.
Don’t get me wrong…I’m grateful the work of the cross and I am nothing without God’s umerited grace….but the cross frees us to live as Jesus lived. And living like Jesus doesn’t mean we live in some culturally located Victorian ideal of middle class social respectability.
Sorry.
It just doesn’t.
Period.
To very loosely paraphrase Luther:
Your “jesus” killed my Jesus.
I’m looking for Jesus most every day, and thankfully, most days , I find Him.
hey clare!… you’re my wife! what are you doing on this site? go and find your own friends to play with! …alright, you can stay, but don’t show me up! what do you mean i’ve already shown myself up!? damn!
i must admit… sometimes i do wonder whether we are all part of the same body. how can my faith be the same as some on the sol site? we don’t agree on anything… not even gods love, which is pretty fundamental to a faith stance. i’m called to love them, yes… but to acknowledge them as brothers and sisters(?) that’s tricky. it’s far easier for me to love them as my enemies and enemies of grace, love and real justice.
is this just my problem, or are we simply not brothers and sisters? serious question… answers anyone?
Full disclosure: I am a pastor of one of those “middle ages” churches. I would call myself a “conservative, fundamentalist.” And to be fully open, I love to read “Slice of Laodicea.” I will do my best not to be a “fear/hate monger,” or threaten to burn Clare at the stake. Of course I may come off as “self-righteous,” because I take a firm stance on certain biblical teachings. It is kind of like, 1+1 = 2, and you can NOT move me on that, and when the Bible calls something a sin, I will not be moved.
One other bit of info. I pastor in a County of 1,800 people, in the largest town in the County, 376 people. It is the only church I have pastorered because I didn’t become a pastor until I was 50. The only way I know about the fighting that is going on in the larger Christian community is through the Internet. I have been reading a lot of, what I guess I would call my view, but not your views. So help me out.
Dena, when you say: “…legalism and fear/hate-mongering…” what do you mean? Can you give me some examples. Listen, I won’t even respond to your answers, so as to make debate; I am just interested in what you mean by that.
societyvs said: “No…truth is not something that is ’static or set in stone’ – it is something we have to realize and ‘find’ (and that takes some sweet time and many revisions).”
Interesting concept; however, a little contradictory. The first half of your statement says that truth is always on the move—the second half of your statement says that in time and after many revisions, you’ll get it.
Hum, what if it does NOT take me as much time or revising to find the truth as long as it takes you? Would you concede that I may have found it, though you declare you haven’t found it yet? Or would you say, I really haven’t found it yet, because you haven’t found it yet?
MAKE IT a great day.
fishon
jonbirch,
No, it isn’t just your problem. I struggle with it as well. Having come out of that sort of extreme mentality (holiness oneness pentecostal), I really have a hard time with people acting as they did/do. I was angry for a few years after leaving and still struggle with accepting them as anything but misguided authoritarians.
I think, for me, it comes down to this. I was wrong. I led people wrong. I hate what I was and I’m thankful that God did bring me out of that. It bothers me often when I think of the youth that I was a pastor to and those who I was placed in authority over, I seriously fear at times about what I have done, yet I also thank God for his grace and mercy. I can go as far as to say that I HATE what I was and what I did — all in the name of God; in the name of Jesus. The struggle is this: “they” remind me of who I was back then and I hate myself when I look back — and it is hard for me not to strike out and love those who remind me of that which I hate… my past self.
I often wonder if there will ever be a time when the poison that was in my life at that time will ever work its way out of my mind so that I can “get over it” because I feel that until I’m “over it”, “it” has control over me. Which brings the whole “Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me”, as well as the “transformed by the renewing of your mind” verses to mind.
nathan… thank you for your full and frankly beautiful response. the thing i get when reading your post is a sense of a beautiful spirit struggling. you are clearly a good man… can you imagine what guilt paul must have suffered!? i truly do hope that soon grace and love will wash away those fears and anxieties… not so you forget, but so you feel fresh. i say again, you are clearly a good man and i’m proud to call you ‘brother’. we struggle together. bless you.
hi fishon… can i ask a couple of questions? i am, like you, not interested in an argument, but am interested in what you think.
1. what do you mean by ‘truth’? do you mean things you see written in the bible and then try to apply as best you can? do you mean seeing gods spirit at work in your life and others? i’d like to know, because some seem to find it easy to say they know what the truth is and act on it, and others seem to wrestle with their consciences more.
2. i am learning that fundamentalism is quite a broad church… but something i notice in common with many fundamentalists is a lack of willingness to enter into conversation with other viewpoints and experiences. from your above post you seem a little different in this respect and i thank you for that. how do you respond to my comment? is this fair, or is your experience different from this?
3. lastly… and this is really not meant to be inflamatory, please believe me. on a site like sos, where recently we saw some very condemning words… how does this square with jesus saying ‘let he who is without sin cast the first stone.’ it seems that scripture is used liberally to judge, but not to love… again, how would you respond to this (i am aware that none of these comments were yours, i just wonder whether you could maybe throw some light on what the score is?).
thankyou fishon.
Another great post. I have enjoyed this discussion.
And stepping into a Southern Baptist church is exactly what it was like. I only recently emerged from that particular group and it was mainly because of thinking like that.
I stand with you as well regarding truth. Further, I observe the delusion of people like Ingrid with the full knowledge (haha, get it?) that I operate in one or more delusions of my own.
Nice picture. Why isn’t he naked? She got to you, didn’t she? ; )
yes dorsey… clare too was saddened by the lack of eroticism on the site. standards are slipping round here!
Conversely, if we package the truth in appealing wrapping, people might be more willing to give it a taste.
jonbirch,
Great questions. I am tired, so I will not be answering tonight. I will take the time to try and answer tomorrow.
#3 Was NOT inflamatory in any way. I realize it is difficult to write in the tone we are taking, and I do a poor job of it, so if anyone may become offended, it may be you because I write poorly. But I won’t mean to offend. Now, if you disagree with my position and that offends, I can’t help that, but I will not purposely be offensive. I have a quote I got somewhere that says: “YOU MAY BE OFFENDED BY MY POSITION, BUT I WILL NEVER OFFEND YOU BY MY DISPOSITION.”
MAKE IT a great tomorrow.
fishon
I purposely refrain from using the old stand by phrasing to get my new ideas across. Just becasue of stigmas attached to them. That is one small reason I do not allow the term christian to be used to describe me. But also, I believe that Gos draws people in different directions, and teaches then at different rates. What is true for me about God today is different than what was true for me one year ago as I grow and learn. So to have a hold on the truth, is to have a hold on a cloud. Because God will change you whether you like it or not. Also, when is a tree dead, when it stops growing.
thanks fishon.
sleep well.
hi fred… we live in a world with far too much packaging… i say, no packaging… get the carbon footprint down and oggle the beauty of the kingdom with no wrapper… wouldn’t that be tasty!?
dorsey… are you dorsey mcconnel who used to be on the cyberpub with lowell shepard et al? if so, me and clare were there too and it’s a very small world indeed. we liked what you had to say a lot! if, however, this isn’t you… sorry to have troubled you and i like you anyway!
(man, i miss lowell shepard… but my loss is japans gain!)
So how do you know anything? How do you know you are saved? If we don’t understand the bible than how do we even know that their is a Jesus? Maybe Buddah is God or Allah. How can you stand against narrowminded bible thumpers when you can’t know you are right? I am glad I believe in the errorless word of God. I am glad that I have the assurance that I will be in heaven with my Lord. I am glad I see, through the bible that what is wrong. The bible shows me how to live. I want to be like Christ.
Galations1: 6-12
6: I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8: But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9: As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
10: For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
11: But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12: For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Jeremyz:
We have a couple of things in common. We both value God’s word. We both want to please Christ. And we seem to have some differences as well–in what we believe, in how we interpret Scripture, and in how we define truth.
You rattled off a quotation of Scripture, but didn’t really have much to say about it. I’d like to understand WHY you are quoting that Scripture here. What value do you think it holds for readers of nakedpastor’s blog?
And more importantly, I’m asking you to clarify what this “other gospel” mentioned in Gal. 1:6 IS? What IS it?
I suppose it would be important to read the entire book of Galatians so that we can see where Paul is going with the specific passage you cited. Maybe he develops the concept of “another gospel” further in the rest of the book.
Are you interested in some “conversation” about what each of us sees in Galatians? Are you interested in hearing other people’s take on that passage? Or have you already made up your mind that you fully understand what this passage means and what it is good for?
What do you say? A little conversation? Or is the conversation supposed to end with the “final word” you have quoted?
Jon, sorry, I’m not the Dorsey you have in mind. I’m Dorsey Marshall from New Jersey, which, ironically, Japan also considers their gain. ; )
Thanks for liking me anyway. I absolutely adore the cartoons on the ASBO Jesus site. Brilliant stuff.
thank you dorsey
@ fishon–To answer your questions, I’m from a fundamentalist background myself. I spent the first 30 or so years of my life not only believing I had most of the answers but also actively condemning those whose lifestyles/answers didn’t line up with mine…and I really only “loved” those who looked like me–no grace for anyone else. If they didn’t act like me (perfect, that is…), they were wrong. And worthy of God’s wrath. I spent a lot of time lashing out at people with my favorite weapon–Scripture that fit the occasion/sin.
Then my “perfect” little life fell apart–all the things for which I had condemned “those other people out there” (addictions, affairs, divorce, abortion, homosexuality–the so-called “biggies” of the sin world) suddenly became a part of my world, but it wasn’t “those people out there” anymore. I was one of them now.
When it became that personal, I latched onto God’s grace and mercy…more accurately, I collapsed and fell into it. And I began to learn what it means to “speak the truth in love”. That’s it in a nutshell, I guess.
Hope that answered your question–thanks for offering me a “safe” place to answer…I’m not opposed to debate, but I’d prefer to not do it here.
jonbirch,
Good morning. I was out in the Wheat fields all day, yesterday, so couldn’t write back as quick as I said I would.
Your last sentence to me makes me laugh. You said: “…i just wonder whether you could maybe throw some light on what the score is?).” Ah, jon, I CAN’T throw much light on anything. I am just a lonely, small-time pastor out in the middle of wheat fields with very little education and lots of opinions that I firmly believe are right. Jon, I am NOT going to be able to give much light. But I will try and answer your questions.
QUESTION #1–What do you mean by truth?
ANSWER–Back to the “nakedpastor” article–He is talking about Packaging and the contents of the pack–and the subject, as best I can tell is the Bible–with packaging as secondary. So, the truth I am talking about is “biblical truth[s].” Packageing [methodology] of biblical truth will ALWAYS change–but Bible truths NEVER change. Now man may try and move the truth, and societies may embrace the moved truth, but that doesn’t change the truth.
EXAMPLE: Ah, one that raises hackels these days. Jesus said, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” Now, either that is TRUE or it is not. Jesus gave no alternative. Now men who know more than God [sarcasm] decide they don’t like that saying, and it doesn’t fit in their thinking, so off they go and write books and develope a following of other people who don’t like the truth of what Jesus said. In fact, they can convince the majority of the people they are right, but the truth [biblical] is not up for majority vote.
I once knew of a girl on LSD who was sure that she could fly. And so she made the attempt off a waterfall from about 100 ft. up. She was told she could not do it and live. She didn’t. The truth involved there was gravity, missing the water and flying into bolders.
The truth involved with John 14:6 involves the honesty of Jesus. Either He is telling THE TRUTH or a lie–again, he gave no alternatives. I believe He meant what He said, and that He is who He says He is.
Like that girl who was wrong and could not fly–those who decide that Jesus’ words are not true–HAD BETTER BE RIGHT!
Listen, I know I don’t write well, and may not have expressed in a way you can understand–not necessarily agree with, so I won’t write any more because I may be wasting your’s and my time. However, if you want me to continue, let me know and I will.
By the way, I will not be responding to anyone else about what I wrote because that only turns into a messing debate.
MAKE IT A GREAT DAY.
fishon
Truth is exclusive by definition.
If a statement is true, it will have to exclude any statements that contradicts it.
Truth does not depend on belief or faith. It must align with reality.
Belief is a choice based on our faith or trust. It is dependent on the character of the believer & the object of faith.
A strong belief does not necessary means it that it is true but does demonstrate strong faith &/or a faith object or person that is high reliable.
Truth needs to be determine and reason out based on reliable evidence
Doing otherwise will lead to self deception & in some cases fatal decisions