Victor, sure they’re caricatures — after all they’re cartoons! — but I remember reading Bonhoeffer for the first time and realizing that what I signed up for was much harder than the Jesus-loves-you-and-has-a-wonderful-plan-for-your-life theology that I was taught growing up. Don’t you remember that point where you realized that Christianity was actually all about enduring suffering rather than getting out of hell free?
Dr. Q: I’m mystified by your last sentence – neither of your alternatives are at the forefront of my thinking. The knowledge that I am forgiven and accepted is more than just a free ticket from the final roasting. And the good news of suffering is something I haven’t twigged yet – I look forward with faith and confidence, and this foundation is solid enough not to get seriously dented by the inevitable setbacks and questions.
When Paul said “I rejoice in sufferings”, was he being stoical or triumphalistic?
Perhaps I will lay aside my “youthful enthusiasm” when I get really old. Although I am already well over half way to my century. However I aspire to emulate my role model in youthful enthusiasm – Caleb (at age 85 – I still have a couple of decades or so to go).
Still rooting for the better deal offered by the guy without the horns.
Victor: Paul rejoiced in sufferings because he knew they were working for him an eternal weight of glory. In other words, the suffering MEANT something, it wasn’t just meaningless or random.
So, yeah, I guess Paul was being triumphant because he had learned the secret of suffering: that counting all things as lost for the sake of Christ is really gain.
I loved this cartoon because the message of suffering is not something we often hear from the pulpit these days. A lot of Christians fall for the “prosperity gospel” bandwagon, wrongly believing that faith in Christ is a non-stop ticket to the fulfillment of their wish-dreams.
As someone who works with persecuted Christians worldwide and teaches specifically on the biblical teaching on suffering for righteousness (persecution), this cartoon is hardly over-simplified and over-dramaticised. It breaks through a lot of the crap that we have encrusted around what we think it means to be a disciple of Jesus.
Yes, perhaps our respective socialisation has much to do with our perception of this series of cartoons.
I come from Britain and live in Germany, so I have had limited contact with the over-enthusiastic, excessively goal-oriented incarnations of North American churchianity that many folks here testify to. I grew up in an Anglican context, and later moved through various “free church” evangelical circles into the charismatic movement, and I am now firmly charismatic.
Europe has had plenty of forms of the “suffering gospel”, and in most cases they lead to a negative and passive form of faith that doesn’t dare to believe God for anything.
So it seems we come from different points – and perhaps we should be careful that we don’t pass each other along the way and end up at the opposite end of the pendulum swing.
@lor
Not sure what sort of answer you’re looking for. I wasn’t setting up a theological label, so I can’t give you an academic definition.
But I seek close fellowship with Jesus, his Father and the Holy Spirit, and I actively seek the gifts of the Spirit. I feel a special bond with people who are generally described as charismatic or pentecostal (although I might not feel comfortable with all the details).
I also feel a bond with other Christians, too, although sometimes there is less common ground to build a working relationship on.
This is an inadequate summary which omits an awful lot of aspects of my life, so if you want to know more, you will have to ask more specific questions. And you would also need to tell me what makes you tick, and whether your question may have any emotional components which could make it difficult for us to really understand each other.
However, I will probably not be able to reply soon anyway, because I will be away on holiday (translation for your side of the Atlantic: vacation) for the next two and a half weeks.
David Hayward is an artist trapped in a pastor's body, stripping to the essential.
Am I the only one who finds this series of cartoons over-simplified and over-dramaticised?
Victor, sure they’re caricatures — after all they’re cartoons! — but I remember reading Bonhoeffer for the first time and realizing that what I signed up for was much harder than the Jesus-loves-you-and-has-a-wonderful-plan-for-your-life theology that I was taught growing up. Don’t you remember that point where you realized that Christianity was actually all about enduring suffering rather than getting out of hell free?
Dr. Q: I’m mystified by your last sentence – neither of your alternatives are at the forefront of my thinking. The knowledge that I am forgiven and accepted is more than just a free ticket from the final roasting. And the good news of suffering is something I haven’t twigged yet – I look forward with faith and confidence, and this foundation is solid enough not to get seriously dented by the inevitable setbacks and questions.
When Paul said “I rejoice in sufferings”, was he being stoical or triumphalistic?
Perhaps I will lay aside my “youthful enthusiasm” when I get really old. Although I am already well over half way to my century. However I aspire to emulate my role model in youthful enthusiasm – Caleb (at age 85 – I still have a couple of decades or so to go).
Still rooting for the better deal offered by the guy without the horns.
Victor: Paul rejoiced in sufferings because he knew they were working for him an eternal weight of glory. In other words, the suffering MEANT something, it wasn’t just meaningless or random.
So, yeah, I guess Paul was being triumphant because he had learned the secret of suffering: that counting all things as lost for the sake of Christ is really gain.
I loved this cartoon because the message of suffering is not something we often hear from the pulpit these days. A lot of Christians fall for the “prosperity gospel” bandwagon, wrongly believing that faith in Christ is a non-stop ticket to the fulfillment of their wish-dreams.
As someone who works with persecuted Christians worldwide and teaches specifically on the biblical teaching on suffering for righteousness (persecution), this cartoon is hardly over-simplified and over-dramaticised. It breaks through a lot of the crap that we have encrusted around what we think it means to be a disciple of Jesus.
Victor, maybe you didn’t grow up in the circles I did (American fundacostal), if not then the cartoon wouldn’t be as funny.
In truth… be glad if the cartoon isn’t funny…
Yes, perhaps our respective socialisation has much to do with our perception of this series of cartoons.
I come from Britain and live in Germany, so I have had limited contact with the over-enthusiastic, excessively goal-oriented incarnations of North American churchianity that many folks here testify to. I grew up in an Anglican context, and later moved through various “free church” evangelical circles into the charismatic movement, and I am now firmly charismatic.
Europe has had plenty of forms of the “suffering gospel”, and in most cases they lead to a negative and passive form of faith that doesn’t dare to believe God for anything.
So it seems we come from different points – and perhaps we should be careful that we don’t pass each other along the way and end up at the opposite end of the pendulum swing.
please forgive my lack of knowledge – what exactly does ‘firmly charismatic’ mean?
@lor
Not sure what sort of answer you’re looking for. I wasn’t setting up a theological label, so I can’t give you an academic definition.
But I seek close fellowship with Jesus, his Father and the Holy Spirit, and I actively seek the gifts of the Spirit. I feel a special bond with people who are generally described as charismatic or pentecostal (although I might not feel comfortable with all the details).
I also feel a bond with other Christians, too, although sometimes there is less common ground to build a working relationship on.
This is an inadequate summary which omits an awful lot of aspects of my life, so if you want to know more, you will have to ask more specific questions. And you would also need to tell me what makes you tick, and whether your question may have any emotional components which could make it difficult for us to really understand each other.
However, I will probably not be able to reply soon anyway, because I will be away on holiday (translation for your side of the Atlantic: vacation) for the next two and a half weeks.