This “fear” issue being attached to the “organized” church – the ones who are “afraid to ask questions – are an easy target to cover a fear that may reside within the accusor.

Maybe – just maybe – the “open, religious free” ones who go deeper in their search are “afraid” of settling with a uncompromising truth.

We all come to the table with fear – sometimes we can mask our own by saying we are “open minded”.

Just a thought!

How about a definition of “the church”? I’m thinking that considering all the different experiences and relationships represented, we would do well to work from a common understanding, or is that possible.

Julia in cell 52: Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!

Jeff…one day the end will co

I’m not responding to any one comment here (as there are a million ideas that i could respond to) but i do wonder if the element of spirituality in all of us is just expressed differently …knowing that only God knows the heart… what we, “the church”, judge to be atheistic (excluding self proclaimed atheism)is actually who god made that person to be. I love the line from a hysterical movie called ‘saved’ where Mary the main character says, “why would God make us all so different if he wanted us to look uniform”. Maybe those who appear (to some) to not believe, actually do, in their own expression. Just a thought.

ps. i just responded to win a painting…and also, i love the comment way back there somewhere where our talk of “the church” is compared to “the man”…good call.

Are you finished your tabacco already? Just was given a beautiful Dominican cigar – with some nice cognac…

Nice painting David.

I was an atheist and then a seeker and then on December 8, 1987 I was born-again. If you have not been born-again you can not understand what that event means. Only a believer experiences the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The truth is you either are or are not a believer. There is no grey area. I do know the atheistic experience well, but how well do any of you know what it means to be a follower of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ? There are no rude comments or any intellectual BS that can cause my faith to crumble. The world hates Jesus and will hate those who follow Him as well. There is only one center of the universe and it isn’t you! If one does not believe in the ressurection but believes that Jesus’ teaching was great stuff, then I question why someone would subscribe to the teachings of a liar. Jesus not only said He was God, but also said he would rise on the third day.

Re: Reply #59…”acknowledging fear.” Hmmm…that seems more honest than denying a fear. It also seems more objective. I can “fear you” but listen to you in spite of my fear. Or I can pretend I have no fear of you whatsoever, and probably listen to you but while I’m “listening to you” I’m really just thinking about how I’m planning to respond…

If Christians are afraid of dialogue about serious & sensible questions from athiests than are they really much different than the Taliban.(?)

Couldn’t resist comment..I think and say I am an atheist…but when times are tough I am guilty of looking for something I think and say isn’t there…..strange….is this an innate or learnt behavior…agnostic..maybe….One thing I am sure I can relate to David through his artwork…which would in a weird sort of way speak to a commonality in our believe systems….maybe…interesting….

Nicole, would you say you are a “weak atheist” or “ignostic”?

I’d say I’m agnostic, but if forced to choose one of the things I don’t think I can know about I’d be more likely to choose atheism than any particular deity.

Then again, I know an atheist who “tried to be” a Christian. He “tried to believe.” Was his effort sincere? Who am I to say?

Maybe I should just become a Calvinist.

Jeff by no means do I have it all together nor are there non-grey areas. I struggle. I just don’t struggle with the question of is there or isn’t there a God in charge and that I do have purpose in life. As an atheist there simply was no question that there is no god, as an agnostic (seeker) there was question and as of the date mentioned above there is no question that there really is a God. The only difference between the first and last questions being my own version of the Apostle Pauls experience on the road to Damascus and consequent belief. From my viewpoint right now I say I can never ever not believe.

For whatever reason some of my atheist friends prefer not to talk about spiritual matters and I honor that. I let them initiate spiritual conversation. I’m certainly thankful that what I considered “religious” folks talked to me when I was an atheist, even though at the time I thought they were full of it.

Jeff Roach:

So you’re saying that “something may be out there” but we CANNOT know what it/he/she is?

I think the average person goes through more of a process than a leap from “something’s out there” to “it must be Jesus!”

Jeff R says: “the Roman empire was held together by its mythology but I suspect many if not most undestood that their belief in their gods were largely symbolic and not “true”. But their mytholoy sustained their empire, their society, and likely informed the spiritual understanding of the world for many people.”

If it was mythology that “sustained” the empire and society – along with the spiritual – what sustains us? A myth? That is a discouraging thought.

Is Jeff just yanking the chain here?

Jeff,
Sorry if that came off a bit harsh or sounded somewhat bitter,
But you need to appreciate the frustration a true believer has when talking with an Agnostic!
What you refer to as tales of the Bible or mythology is my entire belief system!
These are not simply heart-warming stories with a great moral ending!
The Bible is not to be compared with Aesop or the brothers Grimm!
I really don’t get it with Agnostics it’s like …I believe with a disclaimer
You are missing it by so little! It’s as Though your father has given you a beautiful house and your walking around with the key saying “ I don’t believe this is the actual key to that house!
Meanwhile you’re living on the street in a cardboard shelter!
Albeit With great dignity because you didn’t appear gullible enough to try the key in the lock.

‘mythology’ is an interesting word… people often use the word ‘myth’ to refer to something that is false. but that is not the essence of myth… myths are the stories we tell to articulate the truths of our lives, our beliefs, and our values – we tell stories to describe who and where and when we are. calling a story a myth is not the same as saying that story isn’t true; to the contrary, it is testifying that an essential Truth rests at its very core.

further up, there was a comment about the restrictiveness of labels that i must agree with. long ago, i learned not to judge a person by the religion they professed to follow, nor to judge a religion by the people who professed to follow it.

but to the original topic, the reason why i listen to Atheists, is because sometimes someone as articulate Penn Gillette has a marvelous take on the subject. you can read or listen to it here:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5015557&ft=1&f=1021

Wow! I have been reading your comments but there is not time to read them all. I agree with most of what I have read but I believe most of us are trying too hard to figure out God and have too much religion. Jesus is our example and we should love all no matter the differences. I fall short in so many ways but I thank the Lord for his mercy and grace.

David, Love, from the South, USA.

Hot topic David, I enjoyed reading everyones comments, some people really put alot of heart and soul into this.

I’ve got a spot on my wall, so here’s my input – rather late in the game I see . . .

To comment directly on your “Ten Reasons Why I Talk to Atheists” – the working assumption confuses me – who doesn’t talk to Atheists?

I genuinely do not understand the underlying premise of your question – though in asking it, you have obviously stirred up quite a discussion.

One of the big themes of that ensuing discussion, is the criticizing of the church in all of its closed minded glory. By my count, 10 of the furst 20 entries) Who is in this closed minded church if it is not 85% of the people posting here on David’s blog? You mostly seem like a group rather able to think and discuss things. If you all contribute to the dialogues in your own churches as enthusiastically as you have contributed here, I should think that you are either very unpopular in your churches, or they are not as closed minded as many of you pretend that they are. Or perhaps it the “other” churches that are a problem – flag waving American mega churches or “Pipe Organ playing incence burning” churches that are closed minded? If so, surely focusing on those external clichés just provides a way of righting off whole segments of the church body because it doesn’t look like what you want it to look like. Forgive me if I’m out of line. I don’t know any of you (except for Richard and Kathy of course).

Anyway, I think that Christians should make a point of going to church, and of trying to find a church that is not EXACTLY like what they want it to be. Find a place that’s a bit broken – and help to fix it. If they wave too many flags than maybe it would be good to bring your elevated ideas to the table, get to know the group, and see if you can help them put their flag waving energies into more worthy causes.

You just all sound like such potentially excellent contributors to the church. I really hope that you go to this broken church regularly and do your part to fix it up. It’s just that nothing is more tedious than reading the criticism of critics who aren’t up for the work of enabling the solutions they think the group so desperatly needs.

I hope you’re all up for it.

Congratulations Richard!
And thanks for the incentive Dave,
It was certainly a great topic for debate.
I think we sometimes need a little incentive to persuade us that our opinions do matter