What are the similarities between Jesus and the church? What are the differences? Who is it that determines these?
(This cartoon originally appeared on the friendly atheist.)
Check out my books and my gallery.
founder Jesus
Leave a Reply
-
My name is David Hayward, and I am the nakedpastor. I am a graffiti artist on the walls of religion.
-
-
Hmm.
Not too sure what I think about this one David.
Going to have to let it formulate in my mind a bit before I decide if I like it or not. My initial reaction to it is not favorable…kind of rubs me the wrong way. But like always…you do make me think.
Hmm.
‘And those powerful men will turn the whole thing into a self-absorbed spirituality project where one can toss out My Promises and My Supper, and My Baptism.
And then the inmates will really have the keys.’
“‘And those powerful men will turn the whole thing into a self-absorbed spirituality project where one can toss out My Promises and My Supper, and My Baptism.”
Wow – You know what David? Steve’s comment makes me realize I do love your post after all.
Love. This. It’s everything my heart has been saying recently. Jesus and “the church” bear so little resemblance to one another that they are different species without any common DNA. I think perhaps you can’t love them both. As Jesus said about Mammon, you can’t love one without hating the other, You serve one or the other.
People say to me “if you love Him, you’ll love the church.” and that statement is used to blackmail me into returning like a battered wife returns to the only marriage she’s ever known. I could do that, but I might end up dying in the process.
God says to love Him and to love our neighbors. I missed the part where He tells us to idolize the church.
and like to think he added, “but don’t worry because I won’t leave you or forsake you to the wolves who come in sheep’s clothing. I will raise up men and women who limp when they walk, who live a cross shaped life, who will lay down their lives for yours and who will protect safe communities for you to gather in as a shepherd protects a flock from the thief.”
Brianmpei … I hope you come back to see this comment. Your words are ointment. Thanks for reminding me He has always, always, done just that. “men and women who limp when they walk” … i’m in that very privileged group.
I agree with Brianmpei. Life (and church) tends to smell like either cowshit or roses depending on where you stick your nose.
Since when did “the church” stop being part of “our neighbors”? I run into this a lot, the idea that somehow the church is separate from the rest of the human family, separate and above. That’s a myth those of us in the church have not done enough to dispel (perhaps because it has benefited us too well). When I look at “the church,” I see my neighbors, the same kind of broken, beautiful people inside as out, and that helps me readjust my expectations.
@Mar
“God says to love Him and to love our neighbors. I missed the part where He tells us to idolize the church.”
Exactly!! Couldn’t agree more.
This is so good, especially with all the stuff coming from Mark Driscoll and MHC on the one hand and from the Catholic bishops on the other.
There’s Constantine and then there’s Christianity … the 2012 election in the US shows what happens when church/state perform a mind-meld.
@Steve:
“My Promises and My Supper, and My Baptism”
Focusing on these ffeld to me like the spiritualizing and thereby minimalizing that’s in the cartoon. These are symbols – not the things themselves. They in themselves are easy, but the message they represent is overwhelmingly challenging. Focusing on the symbols alone leaves us off the hook.
(Now, now, before you say anything, I’m not implying these “other things” are required for salvation. I’m not claiming anyone would go to hell for not doing them, or isn’t a Christian if they don’t. But it seems undeniable that these “other things” are more than just optional niceties. Jesus calls us to them and they should be our life’s work.)
and yet, he is preparing a bride without spot or blemish. He knows his own and they know his voice. Isn’t it amazing that “his will” will be done anyway ? He is God !
@tom
“and yet, he is preparing a bride without spot or blemish.”
I don’t disagree with you at all. However I suspect we have a different take on who this perfect bride is. I don’t think anyone has suggested that “his will will be done away”. But I may disagree with you on what “his will” is.
“The Church” as we know it exists solely to provide a buffer between individuals and God. People join churches not to find God, but looking for a way to reap the benefits of association with God while avoiding the risks of direct confrontation.
The driving force behind the very notion of “church” as we know it is the same as the driving force behind any other kind of human organization: power in numbers. Power in numbers is the power of herds, a power that makes sense to the bestial side of our nature. It’s antithetical to Jesus’ core message, which advocated our individual power through direct connection to God, one-on-one. That kernel of wheat is the basis for his “body,” not sizable membership rosters, bulging asset portolios, and resultant political clout.
It’s not an accident that Church governance is similar to the governance of any government or corporation. Hierarchical control, top-down power exertion and bottom-up resource contribution, church governance is structured the same, operates the same, and is driven by the same power-hungriness, greed, and egotism as is any corrupt, secular organization. David has seen this first-hand, I think. I take it that seeing this was an important factor in his wise decision to leave.
Secular organizations make no bones about their self-interest being primary. Churches are different. They cover themselves with sheeps’ clothing, claim the name of God in vain, and leverage the sincere desires of millions to create empires both large and miniscule, promising them future reward for present fleecing.
Wake up. It’s all around you.
Christine,
Contrary to what many people believe, Christ is present where His Word of promise is. And He makes that promise when He baptizes someone (God does the baptizing, not us)..and also in the Lord’s Supper. Jesus commanded that we do these things, and He never commands us to do anything where He is not actually in it, Himself.
No…they are not symbols for those who trust His promises.
Actually, Steve, “His Word” isn’t one of the things you listed. That I may have been more inclined to agree with… but probably only because the “Word” means something different to me than it does to you.
Baptism is metaphorial… representing death and rebirth. (I’d think you’d be the first to jump on that bandwagon.) The sprinkling of (or dunking into) water is not the thing – it is an easy symbol of a great challenge. Essentially ditto for the Eucharist being a metaphor. This was my point.
Most importantly, I never suggested that the challenging things were to be done without God in them – just that they should be done. Jesus does command us to much more than water, wine and bread.
Jesus told us to go into the whole world and baptize, in his name…and teach about himself.
That is a command to do something tangible. Baptism is a physical act. He was baptized. And He told us to be baptized and to baptize. Acts 2:38 tells us that we receive the Holy Spirit and the forgiveness of sins in that baptism.
1st Peter tells us “baptism now saves you…”
Jesus held up the bread and the wine and said, “This IS my body…this IS my blood…do this.”
He also said that whoever does not eat my body and drink my blood has no life in them.
We take His commands seriously. And it helps us to STAY OFF the religious rat-wheel, when when have no external assurance outside of ourselves.
Churches that have no real presence in the Sacraments, engage in all the self-centered foolishness which creates despair, and self-righteousness(because they have no assurance other than ‘what they do, or feel, or think). The same stuff that is rightfully criticized on this blog.
Hello, nakedpastor. I don’t think you’ll remember me. We chatted briefly on the friendly atheist over a year ago. I was pleased with the level of courtesy you showed the non-theists on the blog. I think that’s what I enjoy most about the debates that Hemant hosts. They’re…well, friendly. They’re also relevant to real life, and free from pedantry and ivory tower nonsense quibbling over obscure comparisons of greek& hebrew translations&mistranslations & blah blah blah. Your style and commentary are also approachable and relevant to people concerned with day to day life in the here&now, whether I agree with your religious views, or not.
I liked the cartoon, too.
I was wondering if you and your readers can help out a philosopher I met on another blog. She’s doing a study about people’s perceptions of the strengths&weaknesses of the various arguments for&against the existence of god. Anselm’s Ontological Argument is one, Pascal’s Wheel of Forever and Payley’s Watch Analogy are on the questionnaire. David Hume is on there as well.
She is looking for a robust sample of theists, agnostics and atheists with some philosophy background. I found that my half dozen courses in religious and political philosophy were adequate to assess most of the arguments on the survey. She said she’d prefer philosophers (by that I’m assuming she means grad level&above) but she seems to be getting a good number of non-philosophers, probably with backgrounds similar to mine.
The main problem she’s having with approaching people on philosophy blogs is that the percentage of people who respond are overwhelmingly male. She desperately needs some female respondents.
What better place to look for women who are studying for the ministry than among my fellow Canadians down east? If you know of anybody, their help and yours would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you
They will also prevent other people from marrying, tie themselves up in knots, and become so ****ing miserable it’s not true!
Sas x
What he said was:
Wait…
and you will receive…
and you will be…
The story continues over and over. Out of the box. When I see the very small Sophia standing alone and apart, facing a vibrating cosmos while an invisible wind moves her hair and outer garment; I wonder if and when and how she will accept the invitation to cast off what she has been wearing, become naked and BE.
I consider the testimony of her journey, recorded in picture and word to be another form of the “good news” that comes to those who continue to ask, seek and knock.
I am quite exhausted hearing people say they love Jesus, but not Christianity, or some version of that. If Jesus and the Holy Spirit were real, the Church would be what the Bible promised – unified, known by its love… but alas, it is a man-made institution… In the end, I think that Jesus is simply what each person/group in a particular setting or culture make of him.
If Jesus were to return to earth today in the way he did in the 1st century I’m sure many of the church’s high & mighty leaders who claim to represent him would treat him the same way the Pharisees did way back then.Especially the men right at the top who want to keep their powerful & influential positions just like the Pharisees. Excellent comic & SO TRUE!!!
@Steve
I didn’t say baptism and Euchartist weren’t physical or shouldn’t be done! Shesh…
I said that we should also strive for the (much more difficult) things we are called to as a result. Not for salvation, but because we should seek to follow Jesus and better ourselves and the world…. I don’t see why that’s so contentious with you.
“he is preparing a bride without spot or blemish” It takes more faith to believe this than it does to believe Jesus was God. I don’t believe it. It’s nice hyperbolic speech…but look at Israel’s relationship to God. Didn’t work out so well despite the magnanimous promises. God has a bad history when it comes to relationships.