mark driscoll in hell
I read this story last night about Mark Driscoll’s interview by Justin Brierley who hosts the UK Christian podcast Unbelievable. This interview, totally in keeping with the name of the show, is certainly unbelievable.
I immediately thought of this cartoon. Double meaning: it acknowledges Mark’s arrogant, male supremacist, bullying, tough guy attitude that he flaunts and buttresses with his theology. But it also suggests that his ideas will not survive the testing fires of purgation.
If anyone in Mars Hill Church is having niggling doubts about your commitment to that church and its pastor now, trust your instincts and get out of there. Believe me: you are seeing the thin end of the wedge.
My name is David Hayward, and I am the nakedpastor. I am a graffiti artist on the walls of religion.
I’m with you on this one.
He’s just another Baptist/non-denominational/Calvinist whose biblicism leads him to not trust in the Word…alone.
They are everywhere.
I suppose what this man said is not the elephant in the room for most here. So leaving the obvious behind lets travel on!!!
*snicker* This man…oh, well.
Oh, how pride comes before the fall. It’s coming folks…wait for it…wait for iiitttt…
There was a time when, “sinners in the hands of an angry God worked.” Times have changed.
@marcie,
I’m wondering what you think is ‘the elephane in the room for most here’?
I haven’t been aware of elephants. I suppose when I look at it, one could consider the black and white issue of who is a christian, a believer, a non-beliver, or believes something else, to be elephants.
Except that the blog freely welcomes everyone, and while some people may not have explecitly stated what their positon is, that can’t really be considered a white elephant, as no one is obligated to do that anyway.
That was the only thing I could think of that seemed to even come close to what I think of as a ‘white elephant’. As well, Dave has already stated that he isn’t giving a definive answer on what his position is, if I recall correctly, it was that he felt it would possibly influence people’s participation, and/or that the site is about open-ended questioning, not necessaily that everyone has to state an exact positon (apologies Dave if I have that wrong, if so, please correct me on it).
Usually a ‘white elephant’ is something everyone knows about, but doesn’t discuss, and goes out of their way to discuss. I’m wondering if I’m missing something here, that others have seen as obvious.
@everyone…
Perhaps others might want to weigh in on their perception of white elephants?
Since David has always spoken highly of truth, and has shown he is able to speak out on topics that many consider inappropriate, I can’t see that it is a probem to throw the question out there.
I”m truly curious. As someone who has at times thought that a group of people knew about a situation, or understood a situation, only to find out that I was woefully wrong in my assumption…and also as someone that has been completely clueless to information that everyone else seemed to take as a given and were suprised at my lack of knowledge about… it really isn’t my strong point at times, to be situationally aware.
Any man who will make the chauvinistic comments he did and often does it seems, and try to justify them with his theology, is not following the same Jesus I am.
Perhaps the “white elephant” is simply that he is an ass?
His church is called “Mars hill church”. Mars the planet of war and fire. Nothing is coincidence folks. Let the blind lead the blind. This man has got a loooooong way to go…
I literaly laughed out loud. Thanks for this.
@Nancy T.
The terms are:
“elephant in the room” or “elephant under the rug”
The phrase refers to a situation or dynamic that everyone is aware of and yet is avoiding acknowledging or addressing…as if a rug could hide an elephant!
EXAMPLE: The fact of their impending divorce was the elephant under the rug that we all avoided.
“white elephant”
The present or object that no one really wants or needs and yet refuses to throw away.
EXAMPLE: The school is having a White Elephant sale–donate your unused or unwanted items.
I’m not sure what “elephant” Marcie was referring to, either.
As to Driscoll, I agree with Prodigal Daughter. His fall is coming. In my opinion, he’s spending so much time in self-effort to keep himself and everyone he encounters “pure” rather than living by the spirit–and that’s gonna bite him in the butt big time.
Regardless, I love the encouragement to Mars Hill members to trust the doubts they are experiencing…that’s usually the nudging of the Holy Spirit that they’re not being taught to follow.
Driscoll? What an ass….
We could spend a lifetime correcting the misguided arguing theology and creating long winded rebuttals. I choose to move forward with what little I know. Forgive me for not considering that some may disagree. I suppose I have learned that is a given but that disagreement I choose keep to myself.
“Said the pot to the kettle…”
Nice Gary and is not alone lmao
I’m picturing this in my head: after making the comment above, he turns around and discovers the gate is being guarded by two female angels. “Wait, you mean to tell me women run this place? NOOOOOOOOOO!!”
@ Jonathan – That was great.
@ Nancy T. – I believe Marcy was making a reference to http://www.theelephantroom.com/ a project Driscoll is involved with. Her comment made me laugh too.
Matthew 5:5
Nancy reading ur post again and again and yet again did you think I was posting a negative about David? Was not at all. If you knew me (this being the problem with posting disagreements because we don’t know one another so we can easily misunderstand a post) you would know better.
Definition of marcie’s elephant in the room OMG. That this guy is an ass has mud all over his face and there are hundreds like him out there. Although the white elephant was funny.
In the comments section on one blog that I read about this exchange, someone that lives in that area said there are support groups set up for those who have left (or fled) Driscoll’s church. But I know, for every one that leaves, there are probably dozens who sing his and the church’s praises. Bottom line, people need to do what they feel necessary for their own spiritual health.
Thankful for every bit of exposure his viewpoints get, so light can shine on it and it can be seen for what it is. Thoughts are with both the women and men of his church who may one day realize both they and the gospel have been mistreated.
All Emergent Leaders are Douches, False Teachers and very Cowardly, not Driscoll. You Emergent Bozo’s don’t seem to get that JESUS would respond to you like He did with the Pharisees and Scribes of His day. His Tone and Words were harsh and rightly so!
Emergents are deceiving people into a Literal Hell with a False Gospel and with Another Jesus. You deserve more than a few Harsh Words and Accurate Judgement from a Servant of God like Driscoll.
Hopefully, you will buy some EYE-SALVE from Jesus and REPENT of your Foolishness and False Gospel Preaching.
2CORINTHIANS 11:4
For if someone comes along and preaches ANOTHER JESUS than the one we preached, or should you receive a DIFFERENT SPIRIT from the one you received or a DIFFERENT GOSPEL from the one you accepted, you are all too willing to listen.
2PETER 2:1-2
But there arose false prophets also among the people, as among you also there shall be false teachers, who shall privily bring in destructive heresies, denying even the Master that bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their lascivious doings; by reason of whom the way of the truth shall be evil spoken of.
2PETER 2:17
These Teachers are springs without water, and mists driven by a storm; for whom the blackness of darkness hath been reserved. For, uttering great swelling words of vanity, they entice in the lusts of the flesh, by lasciviousness, those who are just escaping from them that live in error; promising them liberty, while they themselves are bondservants of corruption; for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he also brought into bondage.
By comparison to the Spirit of God and His Holy Word, YOU EMERGENTS are GIRLY MEN…….this is fact and evident before all who truly do have the SAME HOLY SPIRIT that Paul received and Preached about…..
Ha! Missionary James,
where to start…
Living in Seattle, it’s interesting how little Driscoll is known here – Mars Hill is kind of a weird cult that hides underground and only pops up once in a while – usually when MD says something *really* stupid. Mark Driscoll on marriage – a NYT best seller? We know the end times are near.
All you really need to know about MD and women is that he thinks and preaches that women should not go to college because it takes away places from men. Imagine being married to that…
Hey Missionary James,
What a bafoon. I am laughing my fucking ass off at you.
Hate to be so crass…but there are those false prophets like yourself (the true preachers of a different Jesus) that demand harsh rebuke. You are right though about Jesus rebuking the pharisees. And I believe if he were here in the flesh right now…He would rebuke you all over again. Your dripping words of condemnation certainly reveal you as one following a “different gospel”.
K I see an elephant in the room. Right you would have to be blind not to see it. And who cares right?
And David r we getting snow or what.
Mark Driscoll is a bully. The only people Jesus may’ve “bullied” (and that’s a hell of a stretch, IMO) are the Pharisees and Saducees (sp?) — aka the uber-religious/fundiegelicals of his time (a category in which I’d definitely place Driscoll).
Mark Driscoll is a misogynist. Jesus reached out to men and women alike. The apostle Paul wrote that there is no male or female in Christ.
You, “Missionary” James, are a bully, as well as an apologist for a bully. Along with Driscoll, you make a mockery out of your Saviour.
I would not be surprised if “Missionary James” was actually Driscoll incognito. He certainly is a disciple of him regardless.
Marcie et al,
Driscoll Kool-aiders stalk the web looking for places where MD’s name is sullied. Then they say things like, “How can you say bad things about a fellow Christian???” Well, that’s if they even acknowledge that anyone not in their penal substitution, misogynistic hell can still be a Christian.
“Hello, pot? This is the kettle. I have some news for you…”
Oh, the time when Driscoll ragged on the Episcopal Church when we elected a woman presiding bishop. I believe he likened it to electing a fuzzy bunny (which is hilarious, because there is no less a fuzzy bunny person than Katherine Jefferts-Schori… I’d back her in a street fight against Driscoll any day.)
OMG he seems rather chauvinistic in his positions on women in the church..and makes rather bizarre accusations when he seems to call the males who attend his church “date-rapers” WTF???
Wow and he claims this church has a following of 175,000 people? Gotta wonder at that one.
Interesting how in the interview (I managed to listen to about 1/2) MD goes on and on –rather arrogantly –about how much they (Mars Hill Church) have done – how many baptized, how many attend, how many this, how many that – putting the focus squarely on what man has done — apparently all by themselves–vs. what Christ and the Holy Spirit have accomplished through them. A subtle distinction perhaps but an important one.
Mars Hill Church and Driscoll have taken my two beautiful and educated daughters (along with many other young ladies)convinced them that to get to Heaven they must submit, marry, and become baby makers…That is only the tip of the iceberg in the brainwashing…Totally Barbaric. I have been shunned and emotional abused while my girls are held “hostage” while being told this is what God wants. Mars Hill: Have babies and plant churches…my 22 year old daughter is about to give birth and I can’t get near her…Her friends are on their second and third babies…Trust me when I say it is a slow grooming that before I saw the results it is too late! It is cult…calling it self a church. They have to sign contracts for Heaven’s sake!!! Driscoll is a bully, no doubt. Oh, and I have attended Mars Hill over 25 times at many of the campuses. It is very seductive and hip! Wolf in sheep’s clothing!
Just like Driscoll. Sucks them right in….
“I think women hear the line that if they are submissive. God will reward them by turning their husbands into the attentive, responsible men of their dreams. They take that in faster than you can imagine. It’s like a gift with purchase deal-hand over your freedom and I’ll give you prince charming. They even tell fairy tale stories about other women in the church who have experienced it to prove it is true. Men get a whole different ‘schooling’ that is equally destructive. They are encouraged to enter this absurdly competitive almost adolescent world. (Taken from a comment on FB page “Mark Driscoll is an Asshole”)
Dave Paisley…Help!! I have been looking for support groups in Seattle with no luck…can you point me in in the right direction?
Didn’t seem all that subtle to me Kathy…lol.
Funny thing about this man is there isn’t anything he could say that I haven’t heard, maybe even fell for in my infancy and now know better. These men are crafty but they first must find a audience that gives a shit. They are all over. By the way why haven’t we had a long discussion about what an emergent is? Snowed in today and maybe for days so have nothing but time
Good Lord, David. Thanks for posting this cartoon.
Honestly, in the circles I run in, I’ve never heard much about Driscoll, but I’d certainly heard the name “Mars Hill” from time to time.
So, your cartoon inspired me to listen to the whole interview, and….Good Lord….
Just the other day, a woman who is a member of a megachurch here in Dallas came to see me because they are church shopping. The reason they are leaving their current church is because it was made clear to them (she and her husband) that she could not be allowed to lead a “mixed” group….ie, a group of both men and women together.
She had volunteered to do so, and an associate pastor had called them in for a meeting so he could “instruct her” (for, apparently, an hour) as to why this was against God’s will.
Needless to say, they are leaving that church.
As part of a denomination that’s ordained women for 50 years, it’s a bit hard to hear these stories, coming out of these new, hip, megachurches.
My sense has been that many of these places are *supposed* to be more spiritually progressive than churches in a prior generation. But more and more, I’m really questioning this….I mean, if they’re still so backwards on a basic issue like women in ministry, what else is going on there?
Good Lord…
I totally wrote Mark Driscoll off quite a few years ago when I heard him say, “Paul Young, author of The Shack was going to burn in hell”. Anyone who proposes to speak as an definitive authority on God’s decision making criteria; certainly will no longer have my ear.
@ Gary – No I suppose it’s not [that subtle.]
David, as someone who recently left MH and is facing intense persecution from the leaders and other members there, I would stand with you and definitely agree with you that anyone attending Mars Hill should have doubts, and should listen to them and get out of there.
The deeper into it you get, the more cultish it is. I dated the step-daughter of a MH pastor (who, ironically, got fired because he was too hard on people for even MH to live with), so I got pretty deep into the camp. I had my doubts about them already, and the deeper in I got, the more questions and doubts I had. Then when I decided I’d had enough of their control and abuse, I left. Since then it’s been an all-out attack by the leadership of MH on my character and spiritual condition.
Funny thing is, the more they do and say, the more thankful I am that I left, and the more resolute I am that I’ll never step foot inside their doors again.
wow everyone… thanks for your stories. amazing!!
Wow guys, whatever happened to speaking the truth in love? Is descending into snide mockery really the best way to express your grievances with Driscoll?
David, your cartoon saddened me. You may argue that it should be taken lightheartedly, but it’s pretty clear that it’s the outworking of something much more deeply rooted. And frankly, it shows a complete lack of grace on your part.
Ephesians 4:29-32 says
” Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you. “
Phil: Have you ever thought that this whole post and thread might be speaking the truth in love FOR those who are abused by him? He knows he is famous and he uses his platform to ridicule women, gays, and whatever else he thinks isn’t macho. We ARE speaking the truth in love while you’d like us to pamper this abuser so he can continue is desecration of the temple uninterrupted.
Abusers thrive in secrecy. Way to go to camouflage them using the book. Not a new one but has been used to commit unspeakable crimes against men. I see only a few using the scripture. Really now…….
Wow. I’m just skimmed most of what was here. I’m going to do a quick post *yes, I CAN do short posts…if I concentrate really, really hard*
My bad for using ‘white elephant’ where I meant ‘elephant in the room’ at the end of my last post. Yes, I know the difference, but once in a month of blue moons, I’ve been known to get things mixed up in how I actually spit them out of my mouth (might be because of the number of times I’m talking around a foot crammed in there).
Also, I apologize for any ‘schoolmarmish’ tones. I don’t mean to sound pendantic and schoolteacherish… *cough*… it just comes out that way *cough*… er, um, sometimes with a side-helping of know-it-all-ness and/or arrogance. I know, you’re all suprised because none of you would have ever figured that out from my posts unless I stated it here. *whinging blush*
So, anyway. Marcie…I wasn’t so much thinking you were speaking out against David, so much as thinking that perhaps some group of people, or the ways some group of people think/believe, was the ‘elephant in the room’, and that had me wondering if I was missing some sort of underlying dynamics. (as opposed to the freeforall dynamics that are here in general)
@Josh/Marcie… had only heard of Driscoll in the most brief and passing of ways, so knew nothing of the ‘elephant room’, having checked it out, good on you Marcie, was a wonderful statement, I just didn’t get the reference and went off on my own tangent.
I do have a couple of remarks about what I read over at the link Josh sent, but I’ve already shot my ‘short post’ idea to hell. Obviously I wasn’t concentrating hard enough. So, I’ll get caught up on a few other things, read the posts I only skimmed over, and post back later.
So you’re not talking about this fabulous Elephant Room?
http://www.elephantroom.com/
Cause I could dig that!
Wow, listened to the podcast and it was pretty disgusting. It’s funny how Driscoll uses the Bible to promote and preserve his own ego.
Also funny how he thought the interviewer disrespected his wife by not including in her in the conversation all while he never stopped talking to let his wife get a word in.
Nancy you are too funny!!! Made me laugh. That is good for sure. And no underline anything ever here. You can trust really I am done trying to have something to prove. Thank you, made my night with that short post LOL. Seriouse blessings. I am sure over stayed my welcome today. AND may tomorrow, got a lot of snow here in Wa. no work, broke my leg so no adventures down the hill in the snow.
Driscoll is a local phenomenon, (I’m in Seattle) although not an isolated one.
I heard about him several years ago. My nephew spoke highly of him, Mars Hill’s web site read like it might be interesting, so I went to a couple of services and picked up his book “Confessions of a Reformission Rev.”
The book was all about planting churches, not anything I’d remotely consider “confessional.” Maybe he was confessing that he didn’t make his revenue targets for the first while, poor, poor guy. Now he’s doing great! Another successful leader of church industry, those paragons of spiritual capitalism.
Simple test for what TRULY has worth-ship to us: we value what we count. Driscoll counts churches and chairs with warm bodies. And $$.
PHIL! – mmm, You seem to be unaware of how Jesus spoke to the pharisees! He didn’t even bother with lighthearted humor!.. He went straight for the jugular.
time to grow up phil
Millard, he is far from a local phenomenon … Hundreds of thousands listen to him through podcasts … He has a church planting network which trains men and “qualifies” them by his criteria … Although his church began organically through a Bible study in his living room, his methods would prevent others from doing the same …
Without going into a lengthy response, (I have explored a lot of the reasons people get into this on my own blog), it’s just so sad that there are so many people / churches that would rather have all the answers than be prepared to ask questions. MD is not unique or uncommon, and it seems all the while people believe that to follow Christ they need to to be told how to live their lives (instead of learning, studying and thinking for themselves within a framework of healthy relationships) there will always be those who are quite willing to tell them to do so, it’s amazing how much effort will go into owning your ass…After all more bums on seats = more power and more £/$ Very sad.
For those who are managing to break free from all the control and abuse, I can only encourage you, things will get better.
Funny that this mans church started as a home “bible study”. After leaving organized religion I attended many home churches. It didn’t take long before I recognized a familiar theme. Men had felt the trouble was the building and so moved into living rooms not realizing they brought with them the problem, that being the foundation, only to rebuild something once again that would look like the church they left behind. It was then I realized everything must go and I needed to be content with nothing, wait and trust.